685 vs 805s - bass

[jack667]

Hi there,

I need to downsize considerably from my 683s before I move house later this year, so the most appealing option to me is the 805s.

Obviously I understand they are going to be dramatically different in more ways than one, but I'm only after one answer really..

Has anyone compared the 805s to the 685? They have almost identical specs on the B&W website. I am worried they are going to have less bass than 685 (which to me, had a perfect amount for a bookshelf) as the drive unit appears to be 120mm according to several magazine specs..

I am off to listen to the 805s at the weekend, but I do not have an oppertunity to compare the two side by side...

I don't intend to add a subwoofer ever, as I really don't care about HT - just music.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

[dan87951]

Its been awhile since I heard them back to back but from what I remember the 805S's had the slight edge in bass (and I mean SLIGHT) but the 685's were right there with it. Your comparing two different speakers that are light years away in terms of price but to me the 685's are the much better bargin. Shoot a pair of $685's are $650 compared to what... $2800 for the 805S's and th real kicker is the 685's are about 80% of the 805S's to me. The tweeter in the new 600 series is real smooth! If your worried about bass and need a bookshelf speaker the DM602 S3 is one impressive bookshelf IMO. Yea the highs wont be as smooth as the 685's but its a trade off.. you get more bass with the 602's but not as silky smooth highs as with the 685's. You be the judge on whats most important to you. However, In my opinion the DM 602 S3's have been B&W best kept secret and I was dissapointed to find out that the replacement was the 685. On a back to back comparsion of the 685 and 602's that I did the bass on the 685's was some what boomy while the 602 had more controlled and refined bass, now only if the 602's had the tweeter from the 685's!

[george_k]

My first question would be to ask what the rest of your setup consists of... Will the 805's be mated with capable electronics?

*edit* My bad, I didn't see your equipment profile --> Mac Mini. 53,000 tunes are these mp3's or other compressed music?...if so go with the 685's.

[jack667]

Hi there,

Thanks for your replies, but maybe I wasn't very clear.

I am not considering purchasing the 685 - at all - I am after something in the £1500/2000 price range that won't upset other people around me with boomy bass. I used to own the 685 so I am fully aware they are very capable budget speakers - but that's as far as it goes for me. I moved from these to the 683 with great improvements, but unfortunately they are just too big to travel with me when I move, so an unfortunate purchase - I wasn't thinking straight!

I totally understand that the 685 is £380 and the 805s is £1600, indeed light years apart - what I'm really asking is, not for quality of bass because obviously I know which has the upper hand here, I just don't want a speaker that is VERY light on bass, because I don't really plan on adding a sub - ever!

I'm off to listen to the 805s very shortly anyway, so can make up my own mind, was just interested to hear your thoughts.

As for my electronics, my amp cost £4000, and is the high end structure that Primare was built on, so is more than capable of driving these speakers at exceptional ease. My music collection is between 256kbps - 320kbps, which to my ear is indistinguishable from the original source, and as a music engineer in my spare time, I'm deeply interested in sound form and production. But hey, that's another argument!

Cheers guys

[george_k]

I listened to the 805's at my dealer's place for about an hour a few months back. His setup consisted of a Bryston 4-BSST, Bryston preamp and Oracle MkV turntable. We listened to all types of records ranging from classy jazz to Red Hot Chili Peppers. I didn't find the 805's to be lacking in bass considering their intent as a bookshelf. What the did output was well done and tight and I could live with it if I had too (say living in an apartment) but, for my musical tastes I needed a floorstander so I went with a pair of 703's.

I may end up exchanging my 703's for a pair of 805's and PV1's at some point in the future if I end up moving far enough so as to cause me to worry about damaging the veneer on the 703's.

which to my ear is indistinguishable from the original source, and as a music engineer in my spare time,

Some food for thought...

It may be that your speakers and/or cd/ipod source are not very revealing themselves. I upgraded from a set of 603/S3's to a pair of 703's and I noticed a difference in the way the cymbals sounded in a certain song I listen to. With the 603's the cymbals all sounded pretty much the same but after changing speakers I noticed that each cymbal crash sounded just a little bit different each time...resolution that I could not discern before.

[jack667]

Cheers for your response George - this is the sort of thing I wanted to hear.. !

[Karma]

HI,
Well, there is bass and then there is BASS. The 805S won't do BASS. If you don't listen to music with bass below about 50Hz (chamber, much of folk, etc.) then the unaided 805S might satisfy you. It does not satisfy me so I have dual ASW800 subs on my 805S's. This is a great setup. But that's just me.

Sparky

[audioqueso]

Specs:
Though the specs on paper are identical, the important thing to remember is that the 805S has VERY controlled bass. Frequency-wise, they may reach the same freq, but quality and control, the 805 destroys all the speakers under the 800 series... seriously. Boomy is far from what you will be getting with the 805S.

Subwoofer:
I understand that you will not get a sub. However, if you feel the need for deeper bass, treat your room corners. I am using my 805 + Velodyne combo right now, but most of the time when I listen to music, I just use the 805s. The room has treated corners, and it helps with the bass so much that most music sounds as if you really don't need a sub at all.

Electronics:
If your main source of music is compressed music, don't waste your money on the 800 series. Seriously. When I received my 805s, I still had a pair of 601 S3. I compared them AT HOME, and when it came to mp3s and such, the difference was barely noticeable.

Is the only reason you're downsizing is size?? Or is it bass? I ask cause size-wise, a bookshelf with stands is still going to take up the same amount of space.

[arcam_boy]

I have some 805S' on the dedicated B&W stands filled with atabite lead weights and with spiked feet. They are being fed from a Musical fidelity a5 pre/power and offer some excellent bas although my current room is only 10ft wide by 15ft long so small compared to some US bedrooms. I had before this some 603-s3 floorstander's which had huge amounts of bass but the 805S's sound 10x better in every respect. I'm planning on adding a B&W ASW 825/855 sub although I may add a BK Monolith instead which costs £400 and is close in performance to the £1600 825 :W

[Karma]

.........I'm planning on adding a B&W ASW 825/855 sub although I may add a BK Monolith instead which costs £400 and is close in performance to the £1600 825 :W

HI,
Let me preach a little. The 805S is a wonderful speaker. It just doesn't do low bass. Subs are a good solution. Now, which sub? How does one decide?

I have written a lot on this subject. So I'm not going to say much here. Do a search.

You have two problems to solve with the sub. First is the production of low bass. If you don't get this then why do it at all? JUST as important is the integration of the sound between the 805S and the sub but this issue is almost always ignored. It is also, by far, the most difficult.

Low bass is relatively easy. There must be a thousand subs that can do this. But the integration of the sound defines the success of your set up. To some extent, it also depends on whether your use is mostly music or home theater. HT is much less demanding from an integration point of view. Music, OTH, is where your abilities as a system integrator will be displayed. Concentrate hard on the integration issue.

One more thing. Don't go cheap on the sub. This is the most common mistake. You want a sub with a BIG driver, and a very solid box. That's why the B&W subs seem to be expensive. The 800 series subs have excellent boxes and drivers. That adds up to more expensive.

Remember, you get what you pay for. It's a cosmic law. Of course you can buy used but be careful. I would strongly suggest that you go with a B&W 800 series sub. This willl create the least amount of integration issues. Oh, and dual subs are better than one. I am not suggesting that you buy two smaller subs. No, buy two big ones. Subs work very hard. With two each one works half as hard. This is very desirable from a number of points of view.

Sparky

[arcam_boy]

more than enough tests have been carried out by independent people on a UK forum I use to suggest the BK Monolith and some SVS subs will easily compete with the 800 series subs and sometimes they offer slightly better performance. I totally love B&W 800 series speakers and if I could truthfully afford it I'd opt for 2 x ASW 825 subs in my system but in reality a Monolith DF priced at £400 would be more than capable at doing what I need.

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-df.htm

its not got the looks of the B&W subs but it sure does shift some air!

[Karma]

HI arcam,
I note that you don't even acknowledge the integration issue. I don't know why I bother! It saddens me. As has been said, "You can lead a horse to water but ...................".

Do as you wish. Good luck.

Sparky

[arcam_boy]

Bass is bass it doesn't matter what brand of company it comes from. A BK monolith or SVS sub will integrate as well as the ASW 825 in to my system. I agree with system matching the fronts etc but integration wise it really won't have a difference.

[audioqueso]

Bass is bass it doesn't matter what brand of company it comes from. A BK monolith or SVS sub will integrate as well as the ASW 825 in to my system. I agree with system matching the fronts etc but integration wise it really won't have a difference.

I'll have to disagree and say that is completely inaccurate. I went through several subs all in about 2 months worth (if I remember correctly) when I was looking for a sub to match my 805s. I went through Klipsch, Infinity, SVS, Paradigm, and finally Velodyne.

First biggest problem I found is how difficult it was for any of the subs to blend with the 805. It always made it sound like I did have a sat+sub combination. And although I do have that combination, I can tell you that you can create a seemless blend. That's what I found with my Velodyne sub. The small one out of all of them. Yet, now after having everything properly configured, you can't tell that it's anything other than one pair of speakers creating the music.

Second problem is the quality of bass. For someone who owns a pair of 805s, I'm really surprised that you've come to accept lesser quality bass to the point of saying bass is bass. That is one of the most impressive (and was most annoying) part of the 805. The bass is so controlled. But it was also a problem in searching for a sub because the problem with that was that all subs could reach the low notes, but almost all of them did it with no quality or control. Now keep in mind, when listening to these subs, I never bothered with movies, just music. What I did was listen to music with deep voices or instruments (about 30-60Hz). Listening to it with the 805 as a full range speaker with no sub, and then setting a crossover between the sub and speaker as 60Hz, and everything always became sloppy. (I choose 60Hz because after playing with several settings, 60Hz seem to have the best integration for me). Sure, they had thump, but what good is a double bass if you can't hear a single pluck.

There were sub that sounded very good, but it's not easy finding a good match to integrate seeminglessly with a bookshelf so that it sounds like one speaker. Sure, it'll work of course, but not well. And if you're ok with just slapping a bookshelf and sub together, why bother with a higher quality 805 when you're robbing yourself the rest of the audio spectrum?

However, Jack you mentioned that you are not looking for a sub. I will stick to my previous statement and say that you can still achieve acceptable bass from the 805s if you treat the room. Even though I listen to my music a lot of times with the 805s only, there are certain albums that really miss out without a sub (and I'm not talking about hip-hop, rock, or techno). So I can say that you can be satisfied with just a pair of 805s for music, but for certain music you will definitely want to do what you can to improve on the bass without adding a sub. Especially if you listen to hip-hop, rock, or techno.

What kind of music do you listen to Jack?

[jack667]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses.. very in-depth and relevant.

Well, I've had the 805s set up now for a few days at my home and I regrettably admit that they have left me cold. I cannot get on with the sound at all. I find the tweeter too clinical, lacking in emotion. The midrange totally lacks warmth to my ears. I have them set up properly, on good, heavy stands at a proper height.

Remember, no one take offense here, these are just my opinions...

I've had them set up right next to my 683, and honestly, there is VERY VERY little difference in detail, I've spent countless hours now comparing the two, and in all honesty, theres no way they are worth the extra money for what I want. Perhaps I've grown used to the FST in the 683, and although the 600 series may be "budget", I was utterly blown away by the 683 when I first heard it, and even more so now.

And yes, for bass - forget it. Very controlled and detailed, but nothing anywhere near as punchy as even the 685 - even if it is more detailed, it sounds weak and thin after time. Of course, perhaps this is unfair seeing as I have been used to the heavy handed 683s.. but I do remember what I heard and loved about the 685.

Before people start questioning my set up, I like what I have and I've had it sound VERY good over the years with several different speakers, one pair in the same league as the 805s. My amp was not cheap, it is very smooth and warm sounding, but very detailed too.

I listen to an insanely vast collection of music, I absolutely love electronica (proper electronica) - 606, chris clark, autechre, lexaunculpt etc, rock/metal, classical, jazz and pretty much everything else to be honest. So I've had a good chance to listen to all my favourite records in all their glory through both pairs of speakers.

The 805s are just not for me. Maybe one day if I can afford the 804 or 803 then perhaps this would cure my midrange and bass problems.

For now, I will hang onto the 683..

Again, thanks for all your help.. my search ends for now!

[audioqueso]

If you can be happy with the sound of the 683, then by all means stick with them. A lot of people upgrade, and can't tell the difference, but still want to upgrade because 'it's better'. However, though you may not want to hear it, it most likely is what you're using. Especially if you're listening to compressed music. I mentioned it before, when I first compared my 805 to 601 using just an AV receiver and mp3s, the difference was barely noticeable. However, using my amp and CD, the difference was basically going from 2D soundstage to 3D. But, if you need to downgrade in size and liked the way the 685 sounded, why not buy those? Good luck.

[george_k]

Out of curiosity did you give the 705's a listen? They definately sound different than the 805's and I'd imaging the 685 as well though the last I'm basing that last bit of info on what I remember from the 601's. Haven't really bother listening to the new 600 lineup really

[dan87951]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses.. very in-depth and relevant.

Well, I've had the 805s set up now for a few days at my home and I regrettably admit that they have left me cold. I cannot get on with the sound at all. I find the tweeter too clinical, lacking in emotion. The midrange totally lacks warmth to my ears. I have them set up properly, on good, heavy stands at a proper height.

Remember, no one take offense here, these are just my opinions...

I've had them set up right next to my 683, and honestly, there is VERY VERY little difference in detail, I've spent countless hours now comparing the two, and in all honesty, theres no way they are worth the extra money for what I want. Perhaps I've grown used to the FST in the 683, and although the 600 series may be "budget", I was utterly blown away by the 683 when I first heard it, and even more so now.

And yes, for bass - forget it. Very controlled and detailed, but nothing anywhere near as punchy as even the 685 - even if it is more detailed, it sounds weak and thin after time. Of course, perhaps this is unfair seeing as I have been used to the heavy handed 683s.. but I do remember what I heard and loved about the 685.

Before people start questioning my set up, I like what I have and I've had it sound VERY good over the years with several different speakers, one pair in the same league as the 805s. My amp was not cheap, it is very smooth and warm sounding, but very detailed too.

I listen to an insanely vast collection of music, I absolutely love electronica (proper electronica) - 606, chris clark, autechre, lexaunculpt etc, rock/metal, classical, jazz and pretty much everything else to be honest. So I've had a good chance to listen to all my favourite records in all their glory through both pairs of speakers.

The 805s are just not for me. Maybe one day if I can afford the 804 or 803 then perhaps this would cure my midrange and bass problems.

For now, I will hang onto the 683..

Again, thanks for all your help.. my search ends for now!

Are you sure you didn't buy the older Nautilus 805? The older Nautilus line doesn't have the bass of the new S line.

[jack667]

Are you sure you didn't buy the older Nautilus 805? The older Nautilus line doesn't have the bass of the new S line.

Positive - curved black plastic under the grille instead of straight, black square B&W logo instead of just metal style logo - and reads 805S most importantly!

I have heard the 705 in demo on MF gear and was impressed but not blown away. I guess I will stick for now.. neighbors will have to put up with me!

[RebelMan]

However, though you may not want to hear it, it most likely is what you're using. Especially if you're listening to compressed music.

I concur. The 800's require a proper front-end, amplification and quality source material to sound their best but I don't see that happening here. Having said that, the 600's are worthy in the own right and more forgiving of the signals upstream. If Jack is satisfied with the ensemble he built then that is all that matters.

[angelface]

With that budget I would look at Wilson Benesch Square One's as well as 805's.

Of course the rest of the system must be up to scratch especially the source so
you would need a Sonos for music files if not a good CD player.