Looking for advice please on 800/802d

[cossie0]

Hi all his is my first post here.

I am looking to buy a pair of 800 series speakers. I have narrowed it down to the 800d or the 802d. I have listened to them both and it is pretty clear to my ears that the 800s were superior

I have also been offered a good deal on the 800's as the are ex demo (and in the colour I want)

However my question here is if they will be suitable for my room.

I have added a sketch.The room is 27 foot long x 11.5 foot wide and 8.5 foot high. The room is lower than the rest of the house so there are two sets of steps as can be seen at the bottom which my setee is up against. The opening is a fireplace at the front and is around 8 foot wide.

The speakers would be about 7 foot from my ears but around 8 foot from each other not a perfect triange.

Would the 800's be too much for this sort of distance and this size of room?Should I just go with the 802's?

The alternative would be to place them at the far right of the room firing lengthways but would mean a listening position of more than twice the distance between the speakers unless I place them much further from the side right wall around 6 foot into the room.

Any avice from you guys would be more than welcome.

My dealer is unwilling to allow a home demo of the 800's due to the weight of them but will do a demo of the 802's.

best regards
Darren

p.s sorry for the poor picture ops:

[eljr]

Hi all his is my first post here.

I am looking to buy a pair of 800 series speakers. I have narrowed it down to the 800d or the 802d. I have listened to them both and it is pretty clear to my ears that the 800s were superior

I have also been offered a good deal on the 800's as the are ex demo (and in the colour I want)

However my question here is if they will be suitable for my room.

I have added a sketch.The room is 27 foot long x 11.5 foot wide and 8.5 foot high. The room is lower than the rest of the house so there are two sets of steps as can be seen at the bottom which my setee is up against. The opening is a fireplace at the front and is around 8 foot wide.

The speakers would be about 7 foot from my ears but around 8 foot from each other not a perfect triange.

Would the 800's be too much for this sort of distance and this size of room?Should I just go with the 802's?

The alternative would be to place them at the far right of the room firing lengthways but would mean a listening position of more than twice the distance between the speakers unless I place them much further from the side right wall around 6 foot into the room.

Any avice from you guys would be more than welcome.

My dealer is unwilling to allow a home demo of the 800's due to the weight of them but will do a demo of the 802's.

best regards
Darren

p.s sorry for the poor picture ops:

If the price difference is not an issue go with the 800D.
What will you be using to power them?

[cossie0]

Thanks I have a Musical Fidelity M3 Nuvista amp which is rated at 275 wpc

My dealer recommends the 802's as he says that he thinks the 800's would be too much for the room from my description.
However I think if I got them I would always wonder if I should have got the 800's and how much better it could have been.

I intend to buy a Linn Akurate DS as my front end as well and sell my MF 3dcd Nuvista CD player.
I listened to the Linn Klimax ds as well and it was fantastic with both sets of speakers but is £9600 against £3450 for the Akurate.
The Akurate was amost as good but will mean that I would not be able to afford either of the B&W's if I got the Klimax

[ShadowZA]

Welcome to the club, cossie0.

My opinion is that you might rather want to remain with the 802D's given your present electronics and budget. The 802D's would do better if they were driven by amplification that can deliver at 3,5 ohm loads. I do not know MF, but I've taken a look at the specs of the Nu-Vista M3 Super Integrated Amplifier and it makes no mention of its capabilities in driving a 4 ohm load.

My idea would be to go for the 802D's and then save up some finances & research some of the big brand amplifiers (Classe', Krell, McIntosh, etc - just search the forum). I'm certain that you'll benefit. I'm assuming that you're into solid state amplification. Sorry, I can't advise regarding tubes, analogue switching, class D, etc.

The 800D requires at least 400 watts of mono-block, current delivering (ability to deliver copiously when presented by say a 4 ohm load) and relatively expensive amplification in order to get the best out of them. The 802D's require quality too, but should perform outstandingly well being driven by amplification costing significantly less than that required by the 800D's.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[DM3000 Owner]

If you are serious about buying from this dealer, the first thing to do is to do a hoem demo of the 802's. Then bring your Nuvista intgrated and demo the 800's at their showroom. This will answer quite a few questions.

One big question is how loud do you listen? I measured the other night and I doubt that I ever go much beyond 80 db. So I have 500 wpc monoblocks that never even really warm up with my S800's. I.e. you amp may be enough, for now at least.

[cossie0]

Hi thanks for your replies. To be honest I dont have much doubt that the amp will have any problems with the 800's. The amp is a quality product and cost me 3k uk pounds at the time.
When I bought it the reviews at the time said it was capable of driving almost any load. Here is what the stereophile review at the time said.

With continuous drive and both channels operating (fig.8), the Musical Fidelity M3 more than met its specification, with 310W of clipping power available into 8 ohms (24.9dBW). (Clipping is traditionally defined as 1% THD.) This increased to 520W into 4 ohms (24.1dBW) and 800W into 2 ohms (23dBW), the latter figure with just one channel driven. This graph reveals such high power delivery, especially for an integrated amplifier, that it is unlikely that anyone who buys an M3 will ever clip it

I do think that taking the amp to the dealers is a good idea though and will do that.
I am also thinking of getting it modded with an uprated power supply by the original engineer who designed and built it. He has gone freelance and does repairs and upgrades to the MF and other make amps. It is reckoned to vastly improve the amp to a performance of amps costing 8k uk pounds

I listen at reasonable voume where you would need to raise the voice slightly to talk to someone. I would not listen at ear splitting volume where you would need to shout into someones ear to be heard.

What do you think of the room size for the 800's then do you think that they would be overkill. Are there any 800 owners out there with a similar sized room and what configuration do you have (firing lengthways or across the width)

Everyone loves a bargain and the price of the demo 800's would be only 2k above the price of a new set of 802's rather than 5k which is the difference between them new. That is why the 800's are so tempting. I am looking at maybe my last ever hifi speakers (or at least for the next 20 years anyway )

thanks
Darren

[dknightd]

The 800's are big speakers, and to sound their best they like to have some room around them, so they take up alot of space. (but the 802 is not exactly small, and all speakers need space around them)
If I were trying to cram 800 in that room I'd use your idea of rotating the listening area, and having the 800s 6 feet into the room.
I suppose you could home demo the 802, and see how seems to fit, then try to imagine how the 800 would fit.
disclaimer - I own neither 800 or 802 (but would like to someday

[eljr]

I think Shadow had some valid points.
Power with 800 B&W speaker series is important, IMHO.
Although I would much prefer the 800's I think you would need to address power with them immediately and that would run up the cost dramatically.

"802D's and then save up some finances & research some of the big brand amplifiers (Classe', Krell, McIntosh,"
as stated by Shadow would likely be the smart move.
Even here you may need to think about a fairly quick upgrade in power.
Macintosh 501's would likely be the perfect fit going forward but then They would be as much as the 802's.
I think that's why this hobby never ends.
Something always needs to be upgraded and when it is, well something needs to be upgraded!!!!
Good luck, let us know what you decide.

[misterdoggy]

I have to agree with the eanut gallery.

The room is tight for 800D's and everything should be equal quality in a perfect world.

You need correct amplification, 501's are great, but to have 800D's you need to have
amps that are their equals.

for me it seems out of balance and add in the room size I'd get the 802D's and proper
Amplification IMHO

[eljr]

I have to agree with the eanut gallery.

The room is tight for 800D's and everything should be equal quality in a perfect world.

You need correct amplification, 501's are great, but to have 800D's you need to have
amps that are their equals.

for me it seems out of balance and add in the room size I'd get the 802D's and proper
Amplification IMHO

How was the upgrade from the 207 (200 watt a channel) to the 501's for your 802's. Dramatic? or subtle?

[misterdoggy]

semi Dramatic

I wasn't driving the 802d's with the 207 ever. I always used the 501's for the 802D's.

I have driven them temporarily one time and was not impressed

The 207 drove the htm2d and now a 501 drives the htm1d fine

501's and 800D's or htm1d's or 801d's is a nice combo

[cossie0]

Mcintosh are not really well known in the UK and as usual for US stuff are price the same in pounds as they are in dollars despite the $2 = £1 exchange rate :M . The dealers I have found on the net in the UK are too far away and I would never buy anything blind.

After all the comments above I have more or less given up the idea of the 800's (despite being painfull- I wanted you all to say "oh the room will be fine and your amp will sound great with them"....dam you all....... : )

My dealer is a classe dealer as well (although when I did my audition he used Naim) so will ask if I can audition the 802's in the house with some classe amps against my Nuvista

If I find the classe do blow my amp away then I will upgrade. Isnt this hobby fun

Misterdoggy that is a fine looking setup you have (in the other thread) although I will have to report you to Sky for having a HD box which are only supposed to be used in the UK

[misterdoggy]

Cossie,

You can report me but you'll have to have my satellite position which doesn't show up in a foto :T

Classe is the way to go. B&W and Classe go hand in hand, and I think B&W actually show all their top equipment matched with Classe.

However, it is also well known that McIntosh and B&W make great music together. There are other forums where McIntosh owners heartfully support B&W.

If you need anything McIntosh PM me as I have some material for sale right now in France and there's no tax to pay between the UK and France. And its cheap to ship.

[DM3000 Owner]

I am also thinking of getting it modded with an uprated power supply by the original engineer who designed and built it. He has gone freelance and does repairs and upgrades to the MF and other make amps. It is reckoned to vastly improve the amp to a performance of amps costing 8k uk pounds

Darren

Darren,

Do you have a link for the firm that upgrades Musical Fidelity gear?

[Antus]

if it's just 2K price difference, i'd take the 800D. as u said, if you get 802D, u will keep wondering what if......

for placement, i will strongly suggest place it sideways. usually a full size speakers doesn't sound good when place against the wall. by place it sideways, 800D will fit just fine, plus u will have plenty of room behind speakers to work with. u can start by placing the speakers at 1/3 of room length and listening position at 2/3.

MF amp are pretty good, i will try to work with placement first and worry about upgrading amp in a later time. (plus, don't forget quality cables)

[cossie0]

Hi DM3000 the link is here

http://www.jsaudiorepairs.co.uk/

Thanks Antus I will try the 802's on a home demo first and try both of the positions with them and see how I get on. I will also try my amp at the dealers with the 800's. If all fine I will ask the dealer for the 800 demo at home. Even at the price it is still a lot of money.

And Mister you have a PM


Loads of options now

[misterdoggy]

Cossie,

I sent you a PM

Doggy

[Briz vegas]

Hmmm what to do, what to do.

I think you are doing the right thing cossie. Demo yourself and go with whatever takes your fancy. Sometimes I think these guys are a little too focused on Krell/Classe and Macintosh. Interesting that they did the demo with a Naim setup. Would have to have been the 500 amp I would think, with a gazzillion power supplies in the system - as is the Naim way.

RE the price of US gear in the UK, yes it would seem that they do just change dollars for pounds. For once I was glad I lived in Australia when it came time to getting my American amp. CJs relative pricing here is better than B&Ws.

[DM3000 Owner]

Sometimes I think these guys are a little too focused on Krell/Classe and Macintosh.

Gee you think???

FWIW, I bought my N801's from a guy who had them in a relatively small room (about 15 x 14) and he was very happy with them.

[DM3000 Owner]

Get your checkbook out. The best price that I have ever seen on 800's:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1218503071

[lawoftrust]

@cossie0

did You demo the 802D or the 800D? Which Naim amplification did Your dealer use for this demo. I am just curious as I intend to upgrade my 804S and I would like to keep Naim amplification, however some dealers argue that the D models from B&W are not adequately sourced by Naim amps which is heaviliy doubted by others.

[misterdoggy]

Get your checkbook out. The best price that I have ever seen on 800's:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1218503071

I was on that like white on rice. It was too good to be true and in fact it was too good to be true.

It was a mistake, they are 800N's and not 800D's

When I saw it I wrote and was scurrying around to dig up some available cash, which is thin right now since I am buying a vacation home on Cape Cod.

But the price woudl be what I could sell my 802D's for here in Europe and still pay for the shipping and come out even.

It was not meant to be. I guess it was the Friday the 13th Luck

[DM3000 Owner]

I was on that like white on rice. It was too good to be true and in fact it was too good to be true.

It was a mistake, they are 800N's and not 800D's

When I saw it I wrote and was scurrying around to dig up some available cash, which is thin right now since I am buying a vacation home on Cape Cod.

But the price woudl be what I could sell my 802D's for here in Europe and still pay for the shipping and come out even.

It was not meant to be. I guess it was the Friday the 13th Luck

That's a shame. I even considered buying them and I really don't need another pair of speakers. He adjusted the price down to $9,000. I would guess that the N800's go from $7500 (a great deal) to maybe $9,000 for really nice ones or ones that are close by.

If anyone on this forum is in Chicago or nearby and has the cash and looking to upgrade, these are nice ones.

[cossie0]

cossie0

did You demo the 802D or the 800D? Which Naim amplification did Your dealer use for this demo. I am just curious as I intend to upgrade my 804S and I would like to keep Naim amplification, however some dealers argue that the D models from B&W are not adequately sourced by Naim amps which is heaviliy doubted by others.

Not yet I am currently away working in the north sea on a rig and do not get home for another week. I will audition them when I get home again and go from there.
(MD I am not ignoring your offer I cannot make international calls from here)

I am not sure what the naim amps were (Naim stuff all looks the same to me, dark and ugly, sorry for that )

I will post when I have had the 802's in my home.

thanks
Darren

[misterdoggy]

That's a shame. I even considered buying them and I really don't need another pair of speakers. He adjusted the price down to $9,000. I would guess that the N800's go from $7500 (a great deal) to maybe $9,000 for really nice ones or ones that are close by.

If anyone on this forum is in Chicago or nearby and has the cash and looking to upgrade, these are nice ones.

Actually on the Bluebook feature of Audiogon they list the Average price for a pair of 800D's as $12k

[DM3000 Owner]

Actually on the Bluebook feature of Audiogon they list the Average price for a pair of 800D's as $12k

I would not have guessed that. They seem to be regularly listed for $15,000. If they have no flaws $12K for a pair of $24K speakers is hard to pass up if you are in the market for them.

[misterdoggy]

I would not have guessed that. They seem to be regularly listed for $15,000. If they have no flaws $12K for a pair of $24K speakers is hard to pass up if you are in the market for them.

I got the info from the "bluebook" feature of audiogon. I think they get the info from when the sale is made and feedback is left, the buy/seller put the amount concluded and thats how their info is obtained. So Maybe they list for $15k but when the money gets put on the table its another story. To average $12 there has to be some sales below too.

[Marco Lisi]

Hello cossie0

I don't think your room is a problem. But your amplification needs to be upgraded if you want to get max performance out of the 800D.

I've owned a pair of 802D's in my 30m2 living room.

Recently I've upgraded to the 800D's as frontspeakers.

The 802D is far more easy to satisfy as it comes down to amplification.
You will get much of it's potential with a carfefuly selected amp.

Now, the 800D is a whole other league. This speaker will perform with many kind of amps, but I think that many of it's users are not aware of what this speaker is really capable of...

I've auditioned these beauties with lots of poweramps (Classé, Bryston, Halcro, McIntosh, Marantz, Mark Levinson,...)

The best performance I've heard (personal taste!) was with a pair of Pass X6000.5 mono's. This combo produced music instead of hifi.

Listening to a bi-amp setup with 4 x 200W mono's from Classé for example left me with a very dynamic, detailled and smooth soundstage...but still hifi.

This only to indicate that the 800D will expect nothing less then a perfectly matching amp!

Here, back in Europe the 800D goes at €20.000, the Pass amps at €17.900.

It has been said by others in this thread, both speakers/amps should match and will cost you...

Conclusion for me: your room isn't so much a problem, getting the right gear for the 800D is!

Suc6!

:T