What A Difference The Room Makes

[Pio]

My family and I just moved to a new home. I set up my 802's in the main living room which is open on one side to a smaller living room and a family / theater room on the other.

I thought the layout would be detrimental to the sound - boy was I wrong!

With only "Echo Buster" bass traps and no absorption panels, the 802's sound SPECTACULAR! The bass is amazing, probably because the layout doesn't lend itself to standing waves as much as a rectangular room. And of course the imaging, midrange and highs are as smooth and sweet as ever.

My prior room was almost square measuring 14x17x9 - it needed a lot of bass trapping and panels to sound good. The new room is 17x 21x 9 but since it's open, again, no boomy bass issues.

I have loved the sound of the 802s, but now - the sound is simply up there with some of the top ( high end but not crazy / exotic 100K plus) systems I've listened to.

If you have the option of moving you're larger speakers to a larger space within your home - you owe it to yourself to experiment. Now that I can hear the difference the size of the room makes, I wish I had switched the 802s to the theater room and put in the 805's in the smaller music room in my previous home.

Hope this helps the B&W fans here.


EDIT - Here are some pics I took over the weekend:

[leo2498]

My family and I just moved to a new home. I set up my 802's in the main living room which is open on one side to a smaller living room and a family / theater room on the other.

I thought the layout would be detrimental to the sound - boy was I wrong!

With only "Echo Buster" bass traps and no absorption panels, the 802's sound SPECTACULAR! The bass is amazing, probably because the layout doesn't lend itself to standing waves as much as a rectangular room. And of course the imaging, midrange and highs are as smooth and sweet as ever.

My prior room was almost square measuring 14x17x9 - it needed a lot of bass trapping and panels to sound good. The new room is 17x 21x 9 but since it's open, again, no boomy bass issues.

I have loved the sound of the 802s, but now - the sound is simply up there with some of the top ( high end but not crazy / exotic 100K plus) systems I've listened to.

If you have the option of moving you're larger speakers to a larger space within your home - you owe it to yourself to experiment. Now that I can hear the difference the size of the room makes, I wish I had switched the 802s to the theater room and put in the 805's in the smaller music room in my previous home.

Hope this helps the B&W fans here.

That is a true powerful, jajaja
Only when I put my 804S in my living room, I could hear the bass that they can produce; my HT room is very small (10 x 12 x8') and the only way to hear bass is with a lot of volume but now in a bigger room with a few watts a can get huge bass output, I just hope to have a bigger HT room that make justice to my 804D :roll:

[RebelMan]

It's not the size of the room but what's in the room that matters.

[iiaudio]

fantastic!!

[Pedro]

It´s great to read and know that, makes me even more anxious about my new listening room I´ve built in the new house I´m gonna move in some months. The new room is located in the background (not inside the home). It measures 40sqm and will be dedicated to 2ch stereo listening firstly as I already have another room for ht. It was built using full concrete blocks so I wont have any problem with either neighbors or people at home . As for the treatment I´m currently building, I'll use three wood difusers a big one in the ceilling, one in the front wall and other in the back wall. Side walls will feature inclined wood frames projected to create better accoustic.

[Pio]

It's not the size of the room but what's in the room that matters.

Actually, it's both. Bass traps, deflectors and properly positioned panels will make the worst rooms sounds good. But size gives plays a larger role than I ever thought.

I've always chosen a "room" or area in every house we've lived. More for privacy than anything else and not to bother the family while cranking the tunes. This time around, after choosing a 17x13 room in the new house, my wife suggested the large living room to share the music system more. I knew she wouldn't let me go crazy with my sound panels and traps and I was weary of how it would all come together - the result is, for me, has been fantastic.

[Pio]

It´s great to read and know that, makes me even more anxious about my new listening room I´ve built in the new house I´m gonna move in some months. The new room is located in the background (not inside the home). It measures 40sqm and will be dedicated to 2ch stereo listening firstly as I already have another room for ht. As for the treatment I´m currently building, I'll use three wood difusers a big one in the ceilling, one in the front wall and other in the back wall. Side walls will feature wood frames projected to create a better accoustic.

WOW!!!! that is gorgeous! A dedicated room, properly treated is every one on this forums dream!

Congrats and post pics when it's done.

[madmac]

My family and I just moved to a new home. I set up my 802's in the main living room which is open on one side to a smaller living room and a family / theater room on the other.

I thought the layout would be detrimental to the sound - boy was I wrong!

With only "Echo Buster" bass traps and no absorption panels, the 802's sound SPECTACULAR! The bass is amazing, probably because the layout doesn't lend itself to standing waves as much as a rectangular room. And of course the imaging, midrange and highs are as smooth and sweet as ever.

My prior room was almost square measuring 14x17x9 - it needed a lot of bass trapping and panels to sound good. The new room is 17x 21x 9 but since it's open, again, no boomy bass issues.

I have loved the sound of the 802s, but now - the sound is simply up there with some of the top ( high end but not crazy / exotic 100K plus) systems I've listened to.

If you have the option of moving you're larger speakers to a larger space within your home - you owe it to yourself to experiment. Now that I can hear the difference the size of the room makes, I wish I had switched the 802s to the theater room and put in the 805's in the smaller music room in my previous home.

Hope this helps the B&W fans here.

It's all about those damn standing waves dude.......and you fixed the problem in this case!!. :T

[RebelMan]

Actually, it's both. Bass traps, deflectors and properly positioned panels will make the worst rooms sounds good. But size gives plays a larger role than I ever thought.

Not in the case of all else being equal. The implication that a larger room produces better results is just not true. There are ideal room sizes but size alone does not dictate how things will sound. Orientation, dimension and treatment are in control, not size, in terms of sound quality.

[madmac]

Not in the case of all else being equal. The implication that a larger room produces better results is just not true. There are ideal room sizes but size alone does not dictate how things will sound. Orientation, dimension and treatment are in control, not size, in terms of sound quality.

All true and more. The biggest factor in my opinion is bass management, equalization and control. Also, a smaller room implies that there are walls closer to the speakers, which is not good. A larger room allows you to have more space to place your speakers away from walls which is a good thing. :T

[leo2498]

Not in the case of all else being equal. The implication that a larger room produces better results is just not true. There are ideal room sizes but size alone does not dictate how things will sound. Orientation, dimension and treatment are in control, not size, in terms of sound quality.

All true and more. The biggest factor in my opinion is bass management, equalization and control. Also, a smaller room implies that there are walls closer to the speakers, which is not good. A larger room allows you to have more space to place your speakers away from walls which is a good thing. :T

hi I think that all speaker are designed for special room and the size of the room is the main objective for this, if I put a 802D in my room it will be crazy or not? no acoustic panel or special characteristic room can do this speaker sound good in a such small room.

is possible I was wrong with this thought?
any correction is Welcome

[madmac]

hi I think that all speaker are designed for special room and the size of the room is the main objective for this, if I put a 802D in my room it will be crazy or not? no acoustic panel or special characteristic room can do this speaker sound good in a such small room.

is possible I was wrong with this thought?
any correction is Welcome

Well....there are no 'real' rules to this discussion. Obviously, you are not going to put a huge speaker in a closet. However, with proper placement and setup, you can put a rather large speaker in a rather small room and get decent results. In my opinion, and in an average sized room, you can never have too large a speaker. Small speakers will always have their limitations but there are none with large one's!! :T

[Pio]

Not in the case of all else being equal. The implication that a larger room produces better results is just not true. There are ideal room sizes but size alone does not dictate how things will sound. Orientation, dimension and treatment are in control, not size, in terms of sound quality.

The bigger room worked for me.... system sounds better. :T

[RebelMan]

All true and more. The biggest factor in my opinion is bass management, equalization and control. Also, a smaller room implies that there are walls closer to the speakers, which is not good. A larger room allows you to have more space to place your speakers away from walls which is a good thing. :T

Agreed but again it is not the size but what is in it. Speakers are generally placed in areas in which they have to share the space with other objects. If the speakers had a monopoly of the room proper placement can easily be achieved. Living spaces are generally not the size of a shoe box.

[wkhanna]

As just one example in my experience, I have heard the V same set of 604’s in three different rooms, including my own. All of which were unique in shape & size.

Surprisingly, they were most balanced and neutral in the smallest room.

[RebelMan]

Well....there are no 'real' rules to this discussion. Obviously, you are not going to put a huge speaker in a closet. However, with proper placement and setup, you can put a rather large speaker in a rather small room and get decent results. In my opinion, and in an average sized room, you can never have too large a speaker. Small speakers will always have their limitations but there are none with large one's!! :T

All true. Speaker manufacturers don't publish any rules because speaker size is not bound by room size. Extension aside the difference between a small speaker and a large one comes down to ONLY one thing...SPL. A larger speaker is capable of playing higher SPLs. So they are better suited to fill larger spaces. But let's get one thing clear. Unless you are filling an auditorium sized space ANY speaker will do in ANY living space.

The differences of SPLs between the smallest and largest speaker in any of the B&W lines is not that much, maybe around a 6-10dB spread. And you will NEVER observe that difference unless you have a dead room or hearing limitations and you need to drive the speakers to earth shattering volumes.

The real challenges people have with larger speakers simply comes down to their size. A smaller foot print is easier to live with in smaller spaces but it (room size) has little to do with achieving quality sound.

[Pio]

As just one example in my experience, I have heard the V same set of 604’s in three different rooms, including my own. All of which were unique in shape & size.

Surprisingly, they were most balanced and neutral in the smallest room.

That's exactly why I should've tried the 805's in my smaller room in my old place, as I mentioned on my 1st post. It depends on the speaker, the 802's have such bass capability that my old smaller room just couldn't do it justice. Now, they just sound jaw dropping!

Agreed but again it is not the size but what is in it. Speakers are generally placed in areas in which they have to share the space with other objects. If the speakers had a monopoly of the room proper placement can easily be achieved. Living spaces are generally not the size of a shoe box.

But, certain room shapes are better than others - Rectangular is better than square and, aside from a room made just for 2 channel listening from the ground up, there are room shapes that are better to work with.

This excerpt is from the Wilson Audio Sasha manual:

Room Shapes
Standing waves are pressure waves propagated by the interaction of sound and opposing parallel walls. This interaction creates patterns of low and high acoustical pressure zones that accentuate and attenuate particular frequencies. Those frequencies are
dependent on room size and dimension.
There are three basic shapes for most rooms: square, rectangular, and L-shaped
(see Figure 2).
A perfectly square room is the most difficult room in which to set up speakers.
By virtue of its shape, a square room is the perfect medium for building and sustaining standing waves. These rooms heavily influence the music played by loudspeakers,
greatly diminishing the listening experience.
Long, narrow, rectangular rooms also pose their own special acoustical problems
for speaker setup. They have the ability to create several standing wave nodes, which
will have different standing wave frequency exaggerations depending on where you are
sitting. Additionally, these long rooms are often quite lean in the bass near the center
of the room. Rectangular rooms are still preferred to square rooms because, by having two sets of dissimilar length walls, standing waves are not as strongly reinforced
and will dissipate more quickly than in a square room. In these rooms, the preferred
speaker position for spatial placement and midrange resolution would be on the longer
walls. Bass response would be reinforced by speaker placement on the short walls.
In many cases, L-shaped rooms (See Figure 2) offer the best environment for A S H A W / P O w n e r ’ s M a n u a l
18
W i l s o n A u d i o S p e c i a l t i e s
speaker setup. Ideally, speakers
should be set up along the primary
(longest) leg of the room. They
should fire from the end of the leg
(short wall) toward the L, or they
should be along the longest wall. In
this way, both speakers are firing the
same distance to the back wall. The
asymmetry of the walls in L-shaped
rooms resists the buildup of standing waves (see Figure 2).

if you're interested in more, here's the link.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/pdf/manual_sash1.pdf

[RebelMan]

But, certain room shapes are better than others - Rectangular is better than square and, aside from a room made just for 2 channel listening from the ground up, there are room shapes that are better to work with.

Of course! Please recall my previous comment...

Not in the case of all else being equal. The implication that a larger room produces better results is just not true. There are ideal room sizes but size alone does not dictate how things will sound. Orientation, dimension and treatment are in control, not size, in terms of sound quality.

[wkhanna]

As just one example in my experience, I have heard the V same set of 604’s in three different rooms, including my own. All of which were unique in shape & size.

Surprisingly, they were most balanced and neutral in the smallest room.

That's exactly why I should've tried the 805's in my smaller room in my old place, as I mentioned on my 1st post. It depends on the speaker, the 802's have such bass capability that my old smaller room just couldn't do it justice. Now, they just sound jaw dropping!

Actually, I was using this example to support RebelMan's view.

I recently auditioned the 802D and 802Di. The D’s were in a fairly large showroom with no treatment. The Di’s were in a v small dedicated room that seemed dwarfed by the speakers. It was, however extensively treated. Granted these are two different speakers. Source & amplification were also different though both equal to the task. However, the contribution of room interaction was undeniable. The Di’s were as distinct from the D’s to such a degree that any family resemblance was unrecognizable.

V minor placement adjustments resulted in significant effect in the treated room. Meanwhile, in the lager room without treatment, radical positioning alterations provided little if any improvement in sound quality despite our best efforts.

As always, JMHO YMMV

[Pedro]

Great POVs, I´ve always found there are some reflections regarding the room sizes. Been listening to many different rooms and I think the room size also has to do also with the listener taste. I dont think I would be satisfied listening to my BW 801D speakers in auditoriums room like. They´re big but to my musical taste they will sound better in a 40sqm room than in a bigger one. The experiences I had showed me if I can have a dedicated room for my speakers with correct dimensions and a great treatment I will get a great result.

[Pio]

It's not the size of the room but what's in the room that matters.

Actually, it's both.

Actually, I was using this example to support RebelMan's view.

Gents, I don't think I ever disagreed... In short what I am trying to say is - in my particular situation, going from a highly treated 17x14x9 room to a larger less treated room; my 802's sound better in the larger room. Same amps, sources, etc. My experience, that's all.

The highs and mids are extremely similar, what sounds considerably better is the mid to low and low bass. I am sure that has to do with the size / shape of the room.

Wanted to share because for years I considered switching the 805s from my HT set up to the 2 channel room. I wish I had experimented because I might have enjoyed my systems more in the old place. The HT set up was in a huge room.

I am not saying the bigger room is always best, I am saying you never know until you try, like you did wkhanna.

Perhaps there is someone on the forum that's pondering something similar. Better to experiment than to not know.

[leo2498]

Actually, I was using this example to support RebelMan's view.

I recently auditioned the 802D and 802Di. The D’s were in a fairly large showroom with no treatment. The Di’s were in a v small dedicated room that seemed dwarfed by the speakers. It was, however extensively treated. Granted these are two different speakers. Source & amplification were also different though both equal to the task. However, the contribution of room interaction was undeniable. The Di’s were as distinct from the D’s to such a degree that any family resemblance was unrecognizable.

V minor placement adjustments resulted in significant effect in the treated room. Meanwhile, in the lager room without treatment, radical positioning alterations provided little if any improvement in sound quality despite our best efforts.

As always, JMHO YMMV

hi wkhanna, how can you label a small room for you? or well my real question was which it is the minimum room that I can put a 802Di?

[PewterTA]

The room we listened to the 802Dis in was about 10 - 12ft x 15ft (maybe)... And they sounded perfectly good if a little bit forward on the sound... When I brought the 802Dis home, my room is about 15ft wide (where the speakers sit) x 28ft and I sit about 12 - 13ft back (max I can as the stairs come down into the room). Ceiling is only 7 1/2ft tall and where I sit has the duct work for the house so only about 6 1/2 ft tall... Not the best room by any stretch of the imagination.... but it's AMAZING how good they sound. Almost like they were perfectly built for the room!!!!

The Diamond series is much more "room friendly" than the older Ds were.

[wkhanna]

Gents, I don't think I ever disagreed...

Forgive me, then I misunderstood.

.......I am not saying the bigger room is always best, I am saying you never know until you try.........

And what is in the room, things such as couches, coffee tables, curtains, rugs, specialized acoustic treatments, etc., will have a greater effect. We often have a real tree in the same room as my main system during the December holidays. Despite having to arrange my speakers & furnishings in far less than what would be considered ‘optimal’ acoustic arrangement, it always sounds better in the room with a live eight foot tall pine.

Perhaps there is someone on the forum that's pondering something similar. Better to experiment than to not know.

And the links & info you provided are a wonderful resource.

I think many of us look for a 'Golden Rule'. A single solution to many problems. The’ cure- all’, as it were. It is human nature.
We put hard earned $, time and passion into our systems and want them to perform at their peak potential. Simply purchasing the best quality components is no guarantee of achieving audio Nirvana. The same care and effort should be put into the implementation of the system. As Pio said, take the time to experiment.

[Pio]

Forgive me, then I misunderstood.

And what is in the room, things such as couches, coffee tables, curtains, rugs, specialized acoustic treatments, etc., will have a greater effect. We often have a real tree in the same room as my main system during the December holidays. Despite having to arrange my speakers & furnishings in far less than what would be considered ‘optimal’ acoustic arrangement, it always sounds better in the room with a live eight foot tall pine.
And the links & info you provided are a wonderful resource.

I think many of us look for a 'Golden Rule'. A single solution to many problems. The’ cure- all’, as it were. It is human nature.
We put hard earned $, time and passion into our systems and want them to perform at their peak potential. Simply purchasing the best quality components is no guarantee of achieving audio Nirvana. The same care and effort should be put into the implementation of the system. As Pio said, take the time to experiment.

:T

Here's some pics I took earlier - man what a great day to listen to music












And when it's time to quite down....

[wkhanna]

V nice, Pio!

[audioqueso]

Agreed but again it is not the size but what is in it. Speakers are generally placed in areas in which they have to share the space with other objects. If the speakers had a monopoly of the room proper placement can easily be achieved. Living spaces are generally not the size of a shoe box.

I couldn't agree more.
My bedroom was more than double the size of my office, yet my 600 S3 sounded so much better in my office because how the rooms differed in design. The bedroom in my home was tiled, one wall all glass, etc. My office was carpet flooring, fabric walls, long rectangular shape, etc. My office just did so much more for those speakers.

[madmac]

My room is rectangular and all the walls are lined with oil paintings in a 'gallery' style. Oil paintings make for great acoustic tiles actually!!. I have no sound issues at all.

[Kal Rubinson]

My room is rectangular and all the walls are lined with oil paintings in a 'gallery' style. Oil paintings make for great acoustic tiles actually!!. I have no sound issues at all.

You may "have no sound issues at all" but the oil paintings have minimal influence.

[madmac]

You may "have no sound issues at all" but the oil paintings have minimal influence.

Hummmm......I have to disagree with you there. Each wall has at least two rather large paintings. The Canvas and the frames around them both deflect and absorb a certain amount of musical energy. There is also a throw rug in the middle of the floor which also helps. I believe the paintings have a major influence actually. :W

[stuofsci02]

Hummmm......I have to disagree with you there. Each wall has at least two rather large paintings. The Canvas and the frames around them both deflect and absorb a certain amount of musical energy. There is also a throw rug in the middle of the floor which also helps. I believe the paintings have a major influence actually. :W

I very much doubt the paintings have any real positive affect on the room acoustics....

While you say you have no sound issues at all, I find that hard to believe. Even purpose built rooms have some sound issues that can be helped with room treatment.

I thought my room (which I built specifically for my sound system) sounded great, and it did compared to other rooms I have had my stuff in. At the end of the day, simple DIY acoustic panels at first reflection points benefited me more then spending thousands on equipment.. I can only assume some bass traps will also improve the situation.

[wkhanna]

Hummmm......I have to disagree with you there.........I believe the paintings have a major influence actually. :W

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - the White Queen from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

With all due respect, Madmac, might I suggest you conduct some empirical testing before contradicting some one of Kal’s technical knowledge on such a subject? Try removing your paintings from the room, and then report on the difference.

Ethan Winer has some good info here regarding room treatments.

[madmac]

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - the White Queen from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

With all due respect, Madmac, might I suggest you conduct some empirical testing before contradicting some one of Kal’s technical knowledge on such a subject? Try removing your paintings from the room, and then report on the difference.

Ethan Winer has some good info here regarding room treatments.

I'm quite convinced that if I removed all the oil paintings from my listening room that there would be a major change in the sound presentation. Probably for the worse.......that's all I'm saying here.

I mean...EVERYTHING in a listening room affects the sound. I have some throw pillows on my sofa that I position just so before I listen.... because they affect the sound from my surround speakers. How it is possible that 10 oil paintings mounted on the wall can have a 'marginal' effect on the sound of the system??. NOT!!. I don't buy it!! :roll:

[stuofsci02]

Madmac,

You suggested that oil paintings make for great acoustic tiles in your post #28... This is more then a stretch IMO....

[wkhanna]

To eliminate sound wave reflections, the wave energy must be ‘absorbed’ or cancelled. The common way to achieve this goal is to convert the sound wave energy to heat. This is how sound deadening materials work. As the energy in the sound wave travels thru the material it is converted to heat. It is highly unlikely the paint covered thin canvas of an oil painting would provide such an effect.

[PewterTA]

The oil in the paintings would actually create a smoother surface more similar to glass than to sound dampening.

My actual guess of what's happening is the the reflection point has changed with those paintings and actually seems to work as the reflection has moved to a different point than where you normally sit.

Bill and everyone is correct... the only way to truly know is to take them all down and see how different it sounds. My guess is it's not doing as much as you'd hope to believe.

Speaking of all this... Bill, you interested in starting to build some reflection panels to put behind the speakers... I've got a decent design figured out and just have to get the wood, fabric and filler to build them. hee hee.

[stuofsci02]

The oil in the paintings would actually create a smoother surface more similar to glass than to sound dampening.

My actual guess of what's happening is the the reflection point has changed with those paintings and actually seems to work as the reflection has moved to a different point than where you normally sit.

Bill and everyone is correct... the only way to truly know is to take them all down and see how different it sounds. My guess is it's not doing as much as you'd hope to believe.

Speaking of all this... Bill, you interested in starting to build some reflection panels to put behind the speakers... I've got a decent design figured out and just have to get the wood, fabric and filler to build them. hee hee.

Let me know if you want any info for making the DIY panels.. I have made several before and have photos in various stages of completion. Cheers..

[madmac]

Ok....me pooped...I give up!!.......Oil paintings on wall make no difference!!. Whew!!

[wkhanna]

We are all V happy that you are pleased with the sound of your system.
I am sure it sounds V nice. :T

Just doing our part to limit the dissemination of inaccurate information for the benefit others.

[wkhanna]

Dan, I am all for starting our little project……..
…..But not till the temp drops to a little below Hades!

Stu, thanks for offering your expertise.
Did you use the ridged 703 fiberglass?

[madmac]

We are all V happy that you are pleased with the sound of your system.
I am sure it sounds V nice. :T

Just doing our part to limit the dissemination of inaccurate information for the benefit others.

I'm smart enough to know when I'm outnumbered!!! :W

[stuofsci02]

I'm smart enough to know when I'm outnumbered!!! :W

It has nothing to do with being outnumbered.... :roll:

[stuofsci02]

Dan, I am all for starting our little project……..
…..But not till the temp drops to a little below Hades!

Stu, thanks for offering your expertise.
Did you use the ridged 703 fiberglass?

Bill,

I did use ridgid OC 703 in 2" thick 2' x 4' pieces.

I pm'ed all the info/pics to Dan.

Let me know if you want the same. I didn't want to derail the thread by posting it here.

Cheers

Stuart

[wkhanna]

Thanks, Stuart. :T

[madmac]

We are all V happy that you are pleased with the sound of your system.
I am sure it sounds V nice. :T

Just doing our part to limit the dissemination of inaccurate information for the benefit others.

You ARE a practicing carmudgeon and audio snob !!! :rofl: