Bryston or Krell for 802D?

[Tony1]

Wondering if anyone has compared the Krells with Bryston. I listen to 80% rock/metal. In reading the posts here it seems many say Krell and Bryston's are better for rock then Mac's or Classe. Wondering if anyone has done any side by side comparisons.

Tony

[Pedro]

I've listened months ago the Krell FPB400CX and KCT with the 803D. Bass was excelent, high macrodynamic, punch etc..

Today i've listened the Classe CAM400+CP700 with the same speaker, and i get insatisfaction, not so much bass, and the sound was tubelike. It is surely the best synergy with BW, you can hear 30hours without fatigue, but being a metallian the Classe combo didnt satisfied me.

[htsteve]

Wondering if anyone has compared the Krells with Bryston. I listen to 80% rock/metal. In reading the posts here it seems many say Krell and Bryston's are better for rock then Mac's or Classe. Wondering if anyone has done any side by side comparisons.

Tony

Tony,

I listened to Krell and McIntosh at my dealer when researching 802D's. Both make excellent amps. Both played rock quite well. I didn't really notice a significant advantage one over the other. I tested them at fairly good volumes, but not really high (had my family with me). Overall, I liked the total sound package of the McIntosh, so thats what I went with.

I have a Martin Logan Depth as a sub, not a super sized sub. The overall bass response in my system is awesome, once I upgraded to the Mac's and Diamonds up front (and put my N804's in the rears). Given that you like rock/metal, give Mac and B&W a listen.

Hope this helps.

[Aldo]

Comparing Bryston to krell is like comparing a Ford vs Mercedes. They are not even in a close price range.
With the Krells you are getting way better amp!

[Pedro]

Comparing Bryston to krell is like comparing a Ford vs Mercedes. They are not even in a close pricece range.
With the Krells you are getting way better amp!

Totaly agreed

And for Rock and Metal Krell still the best option than Classe and McIntosh :T

[WI Rotel]

Wondering if anyone has compared the Krells with Bryston. I listen to 80% rock/metal. In reading the posts here it seems many say Krell and Bryston's are better for rock then Mac's or Classe. Wondering if anyone has done any side by side comparisons.

Tony

Where are you getting also this enlightening info?????? The local tea leaf interpreter?????
Better for rock vs better for what???? What utter nonsense. All those amplifiers are fabulous and terribly expensive. If you compare similarly rated amps from any of those manufacturers you'll need a dolphin to tell the difference. I can just as easily find you an audiophile that will with the same confidence that Creek makes integrated amps that cost a fraction of any of those amps and sounds better than any of them...... All hogwash!!!
The best amp for your speakers for any music is the one that can best match your speaker's particular electrical requirements of imedance and power without distorting. Any of the aforementioned amps of sufficient power rating will do that job splendidly (you wouldn't expect less than that for them since they all cost as much as car :rofl: )

[skuzzyb]

Listen to them all if you can.

Wondering if anyone has compared the Krells with Bryston. I listen to 80% rock/metal. In reading the posts here it seems many say Krell and Bryston's are better for rock then Mac's or Classe. Wondering if anyone has done any side by side comparisons.

Tony

I would go and listen to them all. Each person has their own tastes and get used to a specific "sound." I know for me, after listening to MLs, Classe, Macs, Krells, and Audio Research, I decided on the Classe because that is what sounded right to me. I tried to go in and do double blind tests whenever I could and in fact I found that it was the nuances that steered me to one versus the other. The unfortunate thing was that I could only compare the Macs, Krells and Classe on the B&Ws so the others were in different environments and naturally had different characteristics. None were bad, I just tended to "feel" better about some combinations. What that did show me was just how important it was to listen to as much as possible before making a final decision. In fact, this has been a three year journey.

Good luck in your quest.

[akhter]

b&w uses classe to test their speakers i heard somewhere, so why not? at the abby road studio, where some of the best rock music is produced i believe they use classe with 801d speakers.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/display.aspx?infid=1621

[Pedro]

The BW 801D was tested using Electrocompaniet NEMO.

I've heard 801D using just 1 (one) CAM400 for each speaker and the performance wasnt good for me. Using 2 CAM400, could be great deal, but for me a Krell or Electrocompaniet is a better choice

[DM3000 Owner]

The BW 801D was tested using Electrocompaniet NEMO.

I've heard 801D using just 1 (one) CAM400 for each speaker and the performance wasnt good for me. Using 2 CAM400, could be great deal, but for me a Krell or Electrocompaniet is a better choice

At 400/800 wpc they did not do it. I think that you just didn't like the amp. If you drive them to the same volume using two amps the results will not be different unless you are pushing them really hard. 2 CAM400's is 1600 wpc at 4 ohms - that's pretty high volume.

FWIW, the Krell are known for having a lot more bass.

I am using Bryston 7B-ST's with N801's and they never seem to run out of steam. Here was the kicker for me with the Brystons, the Krells listed on Audiogon always seem to say (at least when I was buying) they they were "fresh from a checkup" meaning that they needed service.

Now we all know about the Bryston warranty, but here is something that is not mentioned very much. I live in the desert and I when I push the Brystons hard, they only get warm. I have never had them get hot and they are pushing tough speakers in a very large room. They should last forever.

Aldo's comment about them being a "ford" vs a ferarri or whatever it was is silly. The original 7B's were given a Stereophile Class B in the early 90's and that stigma has stuck. The ST's are Class A and great amps. I have lent them to a friend who was not fond of them even though he loves my system. He hooked them up to his Theils and now is a believer.

Basically what I am saying is that at their price point, they are very difficult to beat, especially for long term durability.

The Krell's and Brystons are more analytical, with the Krells having a harder slam, and Classe and Mac are "warmer."

[Pedro]

The Krell's and Brystons are more analytical, with the Krells having a harder slam, and Classe and Mac are "warmer."

I probably will make an audition with Krell's Evo 402, 222 and 505. Some folks says it's the first time Krell keep the bass slam, but created a refined mid/topend, if it's true could be the best deal, unfortunelly they are very expensive, but if they "deliver the goods" (best bass and best top end), could worth for someone.

About the impedances, i think Mac and Classe dont have that bass because they didnt work great below 4 ohms. Krell and Bryston always deliver a lot power 3, 2 ohms, WHERE the B&W demands current to output their powerfull bass :T

[Race Car Driver]

I had brystons for my 802s, I enjoyed them for a year, just sold them and now will be getting some Krell stuff

[RebelMan]

About the impedances, i think Mac and Classe dont have that bass because they didnt work great below 4 ohms. Krell and Bryston always deliver a lot power 3, 2 ohms, WHERE the B&W demands current to output their powerfull bass :T

Where are you getting your delusional information? I wonder how many people are really making direct comparisons between Krell and Classe' Delta amplifiers in a controlled manner? Unfortunately, I cannot comment on this specific issue as my experience has been limited to a direct comparison of Krell and Classe' systems. Still from what I have read from people that have done fair testing conclude that the Classe' Delta amplifiers posses all the necessary bass punch. I've copied relevant excepts from one such review below.

Classe' CA-M400 Review

Clearly, openness and resolution of even slight details and layering are strengths of the Classe CA-M400s, but I wanted to see how they kept up with the best performance element of my Krell FPB-350 Mcx amps. What Krells do so well is handle dynamics and bass even at top levels. I spun up Dark Side of the Moon on SACD for “Time” (Capitol – SACD) and buried the volume on my Meridian 861 preamp. At 90 (that’s really loud), the Classe kept up with the cacophony of chimes and bells without showing signs of the end of the power reserve of the amps. The ensuing bass and drum intro to the track had the power and low end you’d expect from a live show. All that was missing was a really cool laser light effects show, like the kind you get at the Planetarium.

On “Show Me How to Live,” from Audioslave’s self-titled record on DualDisc (Epic), I really put the Classe amps to the test. This track, with its 24-bit 96 kHz stereo track and bombastic hard-rocking flavor, simply begs to be played loudly. With volumes set at a rock-the-house and offend-an-audiophile level, the track sets out with aggressively digging bass in a slow march towards a musical explosion. The Classe amps keep Chris Cornell’s voice beaming way out in front of the soundstage, even when the chorus erupts into a somewhat messy explosion of sound. Note: there is nothing messy about the way the Classe amps reproduce the chorus; this is a critique of the mix of the album, even on higher-resolution DualDisc. The verses, on the other hand, are about the most intense, enthusiastic, high-resolution rock you will have the chance to hear at home.

If the Classe CA-M400s amps could hang with Audioslave at top volume, then I was no longer worried about the depth charge scene in “U-571” from D-VHS playback. While the bass is amazingly powerful in the “point one” channel, I turned off my sub to hear the speed and clarity with which the Classe amps could keep up with this demanding soundtrack. I could quickly understand how designers would want to rack-mount an entire battery of these amps to physically rock a large, dedicated home theater room. They have impressive headroom for movies and can play loudly and impressively at top theater levels. The amps’ ability to reproduce layering noted earlier is not lost on film soundtracks. The dynamics of Alec Baldwin’s speech in “Glengarry Glen Ross” (D-VHS) are spellbinding, not just for the prose but for the overall sound.

.
.
.

Conclusion
Classe’s new-look amps are as good as any I have heard or reviewed in the price category and should be considered among the likes of Krell, Mark Levinson, Linn, Halcro and the rest of the best amplifiers in the world. The Classe CA-M400s have the headroom and power to tackle rock concert volumes and theater level explosions.

At this ultimate price level, one picks an amp based on the subtle differences and flavors of a top amplifier. The Classe CA-M400s are powerful yet polite. They do best with acoustical music because of their superior resolution in midrange reproduction. But the Classe CA-M400s are no sissies. They rock hard for music and movies. Trust me, the competition is headed out to hear these amps; soon there will also be Classe AV preamps and universal players. Classe has redesigned their entire line and are poised to take an even bigger share of the ultra-high-end market.

Anyone who claims that the Delta amplifiers are bass shy are NOT LISTENING!!!

[Pedro]

Rebel,

I didnt mean Classe didnt have bass. They have great bass, they just dont have the same bass as Bryston or Krell wich depends the taste of each one.

At 90 (that’s really loud), the Classe kept up with the cacophony of chimes and bells without showing signs of the end of the power reserve of the amps. The ensuing bass and drum intro to the track had the power and low end you’d expect from a live show

When i´ve auditioned CP700+CAM400 i´ve noticed the same as described above. I had to put the sound louder at 85/90dB to feel that type of punch i like.

And please don´t me call NOT LISTENING people I didnt make any ofence to you and always liked to read your posts

[Karma]

HI Pedro,
Watch out. RebelMan has an ongoing love affair with his Classe and will go to the wall for them. But he is usually polite in their defense. Classe is nice stuff, no doubt, but I prefer the Krell sound. Maybe Reb will someday graduate to tubes and consign his Classe to a secondary system.

Now I will duck!!!! :W

Sparky

[RebelMan]

Rebel,

I didnt mean Classe didnt have bass. They have great bass, they just dont have the same bass as Bryston or Krell wich depends the taste of each one.

When i´ve auditioned CP700+CAM400 i´ve noticed the same as described above. I had to put the sound louder at 85/90dB to feel that type of punch i like.

And please don´t me call NOT LISTENING people I didnt make any ofence to you and always liked to read your posts

The point the reviewer was making here was how well the amplifier can reproduce clean and powerful bass at high volumes not that he needed to run it that high to hear anything. Furthermore, by your admission which is consistent with my presumption you have made no direct comparisons between the amplifiers in question. Rather you are making system comparisons which is no different from what I have done. System comparisons can have significant differences. This discourse is about amplifiers NOT systems. I stand by my remarks.

[george_k]

My dealer sells B&W and Bryston products among other things. I listened to an 805S connected to a Bryston 3B-SST and Bryston preamp. The source was a Oracle turntable. I listened to this setup for about an hour (3 or 4 records) and I liked what I heard, very enjoyable.

[RebelMan]

HI Pedro,
Watch out. RebelMan has an ongoing love affair with his Classe and will go to the wall for them. But he is usually polite in their defense. Classe is nice stuff, no doubt, but I prefer the Krell sound. Maybe Reb will someday graduate to tubes and consign his Classe to a secondary system.

Now I will duck!!!! :W

Sparky

I think we both have a healthy respect for each other and their systems. However, unless you have made direct comparisons between both Krell and Classe' brand amplifiers in a common system, which I doubt you have, our positions are no different. You are correct in that I will speak up when I see misinformation posted but I can accept one's opinion at face value within context.

[Pedro]

Well, I would like to make clear, i didnt make any ofence. Classe is an excelent gear indeed, but i think for my taste it didnt fit 100%.

Rebelman, congrats for your system, as I said before your posts were always very important to me. Sorry about anything.

[Karma]

I think we both have a healthy respect for each other and their systems. However, unless you have made direct comparisons between both Krell and Classe' brand amplifiers in a common system, which I doubt you have, our positions are no different. You are correct in that I will speak up when I see misinformation posted but I can accept one's opinion at face value within context.

HI Reb,
Why would you doubt that that have not made that comparison? It is simply not true. Is it because I chose differently than you? Is that so unbelievable? Please, do not take yourself so seriously.

Shall we meet at dawn and fire at 20 paces?

And I do respect your position. I just don't agree with it. Also, I too look forward to your posts. You know I do. And I am certain you have a fine sounding system. That's not in question. I am incapable of pandering. You know I mean it.

Boy, I didn't duck fast enough.

Sparky

[RebelMan]

Why would you doubt that that have not made that comparison? It is simply not true. Is it because I chose differently than you? Is that so unbelievable?

LOL. I can believe you if you can elaborate. :W

Boy, I didn't duck fast enough.

It was by invitation only, no? LOL

[Greg Gale]

Classe Rocks!

Wondering if anyone has compared the Krells with Bryston. I listen to 80% rock/metal. In reading the posts here it seems many say Krell and Bryston's are better for rock then Mac's or Classe. Wondering if anyone has done any side by side comparisons.

Tony

I have done side by side comparisons and compared the Bryston 4BSST and the 14BSST to the Classe CA2200. While both Brystons are rated at 300wpc and 600wpc into 8 ohms they do not double down in power into 4 ohms.

If you look at the impedance rating of most of the 800 series speakers in the low bass they dip down to below 4 ohms with a high electrical phase angle which is very demanding on an amplifier.

I listen to mostly classic rock and the blues and am driving N802 speakers. While the Brystons had pretty good bass slam they were muddier in the bass and in the all important midrange could not compare to the Classe in terms of vocal quality and clarity of timbre.

My wife and I quickly tired of listening to the Bryston for extended periods of time especially at high volume levels which became irritating to our ears.

The Classe is much smoother and cleaner sounding from the bass floor on up through the treble.

I thought that by having more power that the N802's would open up and give me more clarity and slam when I really like to crank it up (when the wife is not home) ,but without a doubt at least in my system the Classe blows away the Bryston.

Good luck in your quest to find your ideal amp.

Greg

[Karma]

HI Reb,
Seriously, all other performance issues aside, Krell's do have the reputation for state of the art bass performance. I believe this is true. It's not just deep bass. Many amps can do this. Rather, Krell's have a sense of incredible solidity, power and raw punch. This quality does very well with the B&W 800's and 801's which themselves are capable great bass performance. Together they are very impressive, as good as anything I have heard in a non-subed system. In truth, for bass, I like the 800/801/Krell combo better than any subed system I have heard except my main system, which is really good, and a Wilson Watts/Puppy paired with the very impressive Wilson subwoofer. That was bass to die for. It was powered by ARC tubes.

This is not to denegrate the Classe amps. Their strengths lie in different areas and the bass is good. It's just not Krell bass. I do like Classe sound. I have suggested Classe to others and came very close to buying Classe myself. I especially like the way they look. Beautiful!! I can be had by a beautiful piece of hi fi gear.

It's funny but I don't even use Krell's bass performance because I use ASW800's which are self powered. The B&W bass amp is pretty good but I'll bet the subs would be even better if they had Krell power. But I'm not about to tear up these beautiful subs just gain a little bass in a room not really big enough to support it. It's not worth the trouble.

I take myself too seriously too. We need to be careful about this, I suppose.

Yes, it was by invitation.

Sparky

[ShadowZA]

Tony, I would not touch an amplifier that does not at least double its power into 4 ohms (especially when driving 800 series B&W's). Compile a shortlist and then try to listen for oneself. The best of the best would be to try to audition various choices in ones own home utilising ones own environment, source & pre-processor. Of course this tends towards an impossible task. Nevertheless, I would still urge you to try very hard to at least listen to as many choices on your shortlist as you are able (taking along your own source player and music pieces to connect up at your dealer's showroom - if you can take along your pre-processor too, even better). It's not ideal ... but it's probably as close as you can get.

My shortlist would begin with Krell & Classe' .......

Good luck

[Briz vegas]

Tony, I would not touch an amplifier that does not at least double its power into 4 ohms (especially when driving 800 series B&W's).

Shadow, I cannot agree with this statement as I find it too simplistic. I do agree that it is important that the amp can handle a 3 or 4 ohm load with ease.

Would you say this amplifier is not suitable for 800 series.

http://www.halcro.com/productsDM78.asp

or

http://www.halcro.com/productsDM88.asp

I've heard their little brother, the DM38, and the clarity is stunning.


A good amp is one that just keeps impressing listening session after listening session. Trust your ears and be prepared to spend some time listening. (to be honest I only had one session with my amp and took a leap of faith but that has paid off luckily. Its now 6 months later, yet both last night and today I found myself thinking how much I love what the CJ does with my 804s)

[ShadowZA]

Shadow, I cannot agree with this statement as I find it too simplistic. I do agree that it is important that the amp can handle a 3 or 4 ohm load with ease.

Would you say this amplifier is not suitable for 800 series.

http://www.halcro.com/productsDM78.asp

or

http://www.halcro.com/productsDM88.asp

Briz, as simplistic as it my sound (no pun intended), this is the guide that I subscribe to. If I were to look around for a new amp, this would be my starting point (at least if I intend to use it coupled to speakers that dive down to 3 ohms). Call it a psychological crutch if you will ... but I tend to want to check out the specs first and only then settle into the couch to listen. Does this mean that I don't trust my ears 100%? Let's put it this way ... if I allowed myself to be lead by my ears first and specs second I consider the probability to be higher of me making an incorrect choice compared to the other way around. Reason? Probably due to our fast paced lives and similar in which I do not have enough time to conduct lengthy & detailed listening sessions, discussions & ponderings. Amazingly enough, during my varsity years I had all the time in the world and could put listening before specs ... but ... those were the "daze" when money was scarce.

Even after having stated the above ... a "leap of faith" contingent is still ever present when a decision is made. Hopefully, I try to minimize this leap as much as possible.

Btw, in South Africa these fine Halcro amps seem to do well as partners to our local Vivid speakers.

[Briz vegas]

Those Vivid speakers (which feature on the greek audiophile club DVD) are, I believe, designed by the nautilus guy, Laurence Dickie.

RE doubling power as a guide - maybe as a casual comment to a complete newbie, but i think it should be a qualified statement in this situation. I have found there are too many exceptions, like the Halcro which as a reputation equal to the best out there (some, including Halcro, say it is the best out there).

Macintosh are another example - they quote the same power to 8/4/2 ohm.

I also read the specs and the reviews first when looking for gear, although the 804s were an exception as reviews were rare at the time. I think too many rely on them heavily.

[Briz vegas]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/v...er-speaker.php

Off with the fairies :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry to hijack the thread. Just imagine if these were the new signature diamonds. In a parallel universe they might have been. I can't decide if I love or hate them - maybe both.

[ShadowZA]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/v...er-speaker.php

Off with the fairies :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry to hijack the thread. Just imagine if these were the new signature diamonds. In a parallel universe they might have been. I can't decide if I love or hate them - maybe both.

I cannot deny that I'd like nothing more than to be able to hear these new Vivid beasts in my lounge (driven by a couple of Krell monos perhaps). Their price, though ... is rather above my head, I'm afraid. This encourages me to appreciate the humble system that I own.

But wait ... oh dear ... it seems as if the Luxman L-590A II integrated amp driving the Vivid K1 speakers (http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/r...per-system.php) doubles it's Class A output into a 4 ohm load. :demon: (not knocking the Halcro or what you mention regarding exceptions, Briz - I agree - but just couldn't resist a little dig).

On a side note, I heard the Vivid K1's driven by a second hand Krell FPB amp some time ago. Cannot remember what the source CD player was. Listened to Aaron Neville, some Joe Sample and Patricia Barber. Sound was incredible. Not much else to say as the session was only about 20 minutes or so. Also the showroom in which I was listening was full of boxes and acoustics were rather compromised.

[RebelMan]

Those Vivid speakers (which feature on the greek audiophile club DVD) are, I believe, designed by the nautilus guy, Laurence Dickie.

I don't envy Dickie. Like many great artists that create a great original masterpiece it's almost impossible for them to top it. He has his work cut out for him and I appreciate all that he has done for the audio community especially at B&W.

[Briz vegas]

On a lighter note, maybe we should have Nautilus day. B&W owners all wearing bow ties................I believe they used to be called dickies, no!

[Karma]

Briz, as simplistic as it my sound (no pun intended), this is the guide that I subscribe to. If I were to look around for a new amp, this would be my starting point (at least if I intend to use it coupled to speakers that dive down to 3 ohms). Call it a psychological crutch if you will ... but I tend to want to check out the specs first and only then settle into the couch to listen. .........

HI,
Shadow, I tend to agree with your idea. If one were to do a general survey of the available amps one would find very few that can double their power from 8 to 4 ohm loads. Some can even double again at 2 ohms. To my knowledge, only certain Krell's can do that but there must be a (very) few others. This has always been a mark of quality and expense. Only the biggest, nastyess, and machoess amps (are these words??) can be in this club.

Basically, this performance area is a measure of the ability of the amps power supply to deliver current-lots of it-and the ability of the output transistors to shed massive amounts of heat. The heat sinks are huge. To see this in a stereo amp is even more impressive because the test is made with both channels driven. Stereo amps with this ability have truly massive power transformers and heat sinks.

I have two amps that can double. My stereo Mark Levinson No. 23 is such an amp. It doubles from 200W/channel at 8 ohms to 400W/channel at 4 ohms with both channels driven. It does not double again at 2 ohms. It's an impressive beast and sounds wonderful. Unfortunately, I use it well below its true capabilities because it only drives my subwoofers in my main music system. It does do a great job fully capable of dimming the lights on heavy, very low bass. My 3 channel Krell KAV-3250, used in my HT system, can also double from 250W/channel at 8 ohms to 500W/channel at 4 ohms. No wonder I like this amp so much!

However, there is more to an amps sound than just power doubling as we all know. But because a power supply of this ability is expensive it tends to be found in only the most expensive amps. And usually this is also where the great sound is found. Do remember that this conversation can only include solid state amps. Tube amps with their output transformers follow different rules.

Sparky

[RebelMan]

HI,
Shadow, I tend to agree with your idea. If one were to do a general survey of the available amps one would find very few that can double their power from 8 to 4 ohm loads. Some can even double again at 2 ohms. To my knowledge, only certain Krell's can do that but there must be a (very) few others. This has always been a mark of quality and expense. Only the biggest, nastyess, and machoess amps (are these words??) can be in this club.

I am guilty as charged. By the way a few Classe' amplifiers can double-double down to 2 ohms too. :B

Pow pow pow... :a>

Duck Sparky duck!!!

:rofl:

[Pedro]

hehe The Classe Omega monoblocks. That would be amazing, but costs soo much....

For the 800D could be the best match

[Andrew M Ward]

On a lighter note, maybe we should have Nautilus day. B&W owners all wearing bow ties................I believe they used to be called dickies, no!

Mr. Brisbane Vegas every time I see your cats I giggle... I would visit thsi site more if there was a "Pictures of your cats" thread...

the bow tie is hysterical... :rofl:

[PavelL]

What an interesting thread!!! this whole "doubling in power" has to do with manufacturers only RATING their products as such in spec sheets... And it comes as no surprise that most amps actually MEASURE differently - higher output into higher impedances. Ever heard this "rated conservatively" term?!?!?

[dknightd]

What an interesting thread!!! this whole "doubling in power" has to do with manufacturers only RATING their products as such in spec sheets... And it comes as no surprise that most amps actually MEASURE differently - higher output into higher impedances. Ever heard this "rated conservatively" term?!?!?

Interesting thought. My relatively inexpensive amp (adcom 5500) is rated 200W into 8 ohm, and 350 in 4 ohm. Apparently that rating is conservative, but reasonably accurate. If Adcom had rated it 175 into 8, and 350 into 4, then I'd have an amp that on paper could double its output into half the load impedance. But I don't know that it could actually do that! Since all amps have output impedance none of them should be able to truly double their ouput as load impedance decreases - but the good ones should come pretty close. I do think for a difficult load you need an amp that at least comes close to doing this - so specs do matter, but there is probably more to it than just that. . .

[Karma]

I am guilty as charged. By the way a few Classe' amplifiers can double-double down to 2 ohms too. :B

Pow pow pow... :a>

Duck Sparky duck!!!

:rofl:

HI Reb,
No need for me to duck nor for you to shoot. I acknowlege greatness when I see it and can perceive it. I'm not at all sure why the Krell's do so well with bass. On the spec sheets there are others that match up well. But I don't hear it in the performance.

Certainly part of the issue lies with their power supplies but I don't think that is the entire answer. Krell has maintained its bass reputation for a long time with many pretenders falling away. One thing is definitely true. This kind of performance is very expensive from any manufacturer, Classe included.

Also, raw bass performance is only one measure of an amps ability. I would not buy based on bass only. That's silly in my mind. Overall performance is much more important.

Sparky

[Pedro]

This kind of performance is very expensive from any manufacturer, Classe included.

Yeah hard to find an amp that have the Krell bass with the refined/smooth topend of the Classe´s.

The Krell Evolution seem to have these 2 qualities, but the price is very expensive. I will make an audition anyway

[Karma]

What an interesting thread!!! this whole "doubling in power" has to do with manufacturers only RATING their products as such in spec sheets... And it comes as no surprise that most amps actually MEASURE differently - higher output into higher impedances. Ever heard this "rated conservatively" term?!?!?

HI Pavell,
For the amps in question here and others of thier ilk, the ratings are honest. There are standardized tests that all manufacturers use. These tests are also used by equipment reviewers to confirm the published specifications. Almost always, the manufacturers are confirmed.

It is true that lower end amps play the power game. Here, the tests are manipulated to give higher apparent power. But the high end folks don't do this. They can't get away with it. So when you read a spec sheet from a legit high fi manufacturer (yes, including NAD) you can believe it.

We can all question whether the published specs actually correlate to the sound we hear. While I am a very technically oriented audiophile, I do tend to take the published specs with a grain of salt unless the specs indicate a really serious deficiency such as with SET amps.

Sparky

Edited to correct bad typing. Hmm, that happens to me a lot.

[PavelL]

HI Pavell,
For the amps in question here and others of thier ilk, the ratings are honest. There are standardized tests that all manufacturers use. These tests are also used by equipment reviewers to confirm the published specifications. Almost always, the manufacturers are confirmed.

It is true that lower end amps play the power game. Here, the tests are manipulated to give higher apparent power. But the high end folks don't do this. They can't get away with it. So when you read a spec sheet from a legit high fi manufacturer (yes, including NAD) you can believe it.

Sparky

Hi, Sparky! Here's a couple of links with measurements I assume we can trust. http://www.stereophile.com/amplifica...sh/index5.html

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/207classe/index3.html

I've noticed you are into Halcro terrirtory :lol: so let's just say McIntosh and Classe are just not "high end" enough :

[Karma]

Hi, Sparky! Here's a couple of links with measurements I assume we can trust. http://www.stereophile.com/amplifica...sh/index5.html

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/207classe/index3.html

I've noticed you are into Halcro terrirtory :lol: so let's assume McIntosh and Classe are just not "high end" enough :

HI,
Not true. I'm not familiar with the newer McIntost stuff so I can't say. The vintage McIntosh equipment sounds.... old. But Classe is most definitely high end which I really like. But my true loves are tube equipment such as my Audio Research stuff in my main music system. I've not heard Halcro. Is it good?

I will always push people towards the best equipment. Even if they can't afford it. Call it a worthy goal which they can grow into.

Sparky

[PavelL]

Pow pow pow... :a>

Duck Sparky duck!!!

:rofl:

so, Sparky what do those measurements tell you? just curious really :P

[RebelMan]

Hi, Sparky! Here's a couple of links with measurements I assume we can trust. http://www.stereophile.com/amplifica...sh/index5.html

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/207classe/index3.html

I've noticed you are into Halcro terrirtory :lol: so let's just say McIntosh and Classe are just not "high end" enough :

How did you arrive at that?

[RebelMan]

I trust that no one is confusing this talk about an amplifier's potential drive ability with its sound character. The specification is simply another uselful tool to aid in the search for an amplifier that is properly fitted to its impending load.