My Bryston SP 1.7 Review (long)

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  • jimmyp58
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 1449

    My Bryston SP 1.7 Review (long)

    Sometimes it’s the simple things that make life sweeter. Take for instance the Bryston SP 1.7 pre-amp processor that I just received the other day. It is very simplistic yet it performs in an astounding manner. From the moment you take it out of the box until the time you turn it on for the very first time, simple, easy, and straightforward. But make no mistake, this ‘simple’ unit produces some of the most incredible and beautiful sounds for the audiophile; 2-channel or multi-channel enthusiast. To me, this is the pinnacle. Also to me, this is one underrated pre-amp processor.

    Many users or reviewers have commented at length about the beauty of this unit and particularly how it performs via 2-channel mode. While I will share my listening observations on 2-channel, I will start with movies. I will then move onto multi-channel audio and finally, 2-channel audio.

    From reviewing the host of articles written about the SP 1.7, I completely concur with the findings. I admit that I have not auditioned a Lexicon or Meridian but I have listened to an Arcam AV8, Anthem Statement D1, Rotel RSP-1098, and Krell (Home Theater Standard and Showcase Processor). This processor, in my opinion, bests any of these units. This review will not compare this unit to any of these processors per se but I will share my experiences from the moment I opened the box through four days of breaking my new unit in.

    SETUP/OPERATION:

    Simple. I have owned a very high-end receiver (Denon AVR-5803) and pre/pro (Rotel RSP-1098). I believe from the time I opened the box to the time I fired up the unit was one-half hour tops. This doesn’t include tweaking for speaker distance, etc. but a very brief time to read the manual and plug everything into the corresponding inputs. The tweaking part only added another one-half hour. I found the Denon and Rotel taking far more time in comparison.

    The front panel is straightforward too and switching to bypass is one click of the bypass button (for 2-channel). The only issue that caused a pause was that the manual differed from the labeling on the unit’s front regarding the “Dynamic Range Control”. I figured it out pretty much on my own but visited the audiocircle forum to be sure.

    From there, I tried out each of my transport devices to make certain I made the correct connections (CD, DVD, HDTV, and DVD-multi-channel audio). Again due the simplicity, you simply plug each component into their respective inputs (I connected my Denon DVD-5900 into the AUX coaxial and analog inputs as well as the 5.1 analog inputs). To test, simply depress each of the labeled buttons and the unit automatically discerns the signal being sent. For movies, etc., you can change the modes to tweak your sound but as far as simple operation, it’s a snap. Again, to change to analog 2-channel and use the 1.7’s DAC’s simply depress the ‘BYPASS’ button once and you’re done.

    One thing I noticed is the XTRA Bass mode really adds bass, particularly if you select XBass On. In my previous pre/pro, this was noted as ‘MAX’. I had to turn the gain on my subs down due to how dynamic this is. It isn’t boomy, just dynamic.

    MOVIES:

    As I mentioned, there is not a wealth of reviews regarding the performance of the SP 1.7 for this purpose. I found the results stunning. I fired up Star Wars II. The THX intro was totally impressive in and of itself. I could hear the trickling of water … the finer details of this compared to what I heard previously. I could hear the water before but now I was hearing the intimate details of it. Of course the movie sounded spectacular. The crispness, again the detail, and clarity is superb.

    I fired up Eric Clapton’s ‘One More Car One More Rider’ concert. I admit that I have nothing to compare it to because I hadn’t previously owned this concert before receiving my 1.7 but once again, the detail is breathtaking. The guitar strumming is so precise, natural, and detailed that you literally feel the guitarists are right in front of you. The drumming detail was superb. Being a former drummer, I have a keen ear for the details of this instrument. I know what it sounds like --- each piece and I know the in-between sounds as well. With the Bryston, I could hear the brushes not only make their intended sound but I could also discern with great clarity, how the brush scoots across the drum’s skin. That is impressive. To be sure, I listened to the Eagles “Hell Freezes Over” concert as I have listened to this countless times on my previous pre/pro. This concert’s audio is superb to begin with; it would sound fantastic on a far less expensive setup. But with the 1.7, I could hear and discern Timothy B. Schmidt breathing while he is singing “Love Will Keep Us Alive”. The guitar strumming is clean and detailed. The bass is dynamic (though I felt it equally dynamic with previous listenings). When Don Henley clicks his drumsticks together, it sounds identical to when two real pieces of wood are knocked against each other. Phenomenal!

    MULTI-CHANNEL AUDIO (DVD-A & SACD):

    Flawless. I listened to Peter White’s ‘Glow’ (SACD), Dave Koz’s ‘The Dance’ (DVD-A), Spyro Gyra’s ‘Original Cinema’ (SACD), David Sanborn’s ‘timeagain’ (DVD-A), and Elton John’s ‘Goodbye Yellow Brick Road’ (SACD), and each was incredible. My transport is a Denon DVD-5900. I thoroughly enjoyed my listenings on my Rotel RSP-1098 with each of these discs before, but as is the case with movies, the same can be said here. The clarity and detail are phenomenal. In a way, the sound is indescribable. It’s one of those things that you simply have to hear it to understand what another is trying to convey. And as is the case with movies, the operation is simple.

    2-CHANNEL AUDIO:

    If you listen to music in 2-channel via the digital connection, the sound is detailed and superb. I listened with XBass ‘off’ and ‘on’. With the XBass set to ‘on’ I had to turn down the gain on the subs. It wasn’t too boomy, just too powerful. Then I ventured into audiophile Nirvana. I depressed the BYPASS button and whoa, I have never heard music come out of my system in this manner. Stunning. A lot has been written about the 1.7’s DAC’s and how they are incomparable. Well, they are. When listening to the DAC’s in the 1.7, it was easy to hear the differences in transports. The Bryston simply blew away the DAC’s from my CD transport (Sony CDP-M555ES); it wasn't even close (although if you don’t select BYPASS, the sounds are still top-notch and best anything I have ever owned). Two of my favorite jazz discs are Peter White’s ‘Glow’ and Ray Brown’s ‘Some Of My Best Friends Are … The Piano Players’. I listened to each and to no surprise, the 1.7 performed remarkably. I found it just like everyone else who has written about this unit and its performance in 2-channel.

    SUMMATION:

    So after four days of listening to my SP 1.7, I know that I made the correct decision. To be fair, I went through a somewhat extensive evaluation process when I decided to upgrade from my Rotel RSP-1098. I auditioned an Anthem Statement D1 and an Arcam AV8, as well as the 1.7 of course. It would have been easy for me to simply get the 1.7 without a lot of hoopla but considering that I clearly wanted a significant step up from the Rotel RSP-1098, I wanted to take my time and explore a few other options as well. The D1 has received a lot of mention of late as it enters the market with a splash. In the audition, I found it very, very good but in most instances not significantly discernable from the 1098 that I was able to a/b in the same demo room. It is an incredible piece and perhaps its best days are to come with future upgrades but for now, it was no contest with the 1.7 as far as pure sonics go. The Arcam AV8 was very intriguing. It had more features than the 1.7 and it’s sound was superb but it still didn’t beat the 1.7 in my opinion. It was, however, the closest sounding pre/pro to the 1.7 I have heard. A clear downside to this pre/pro is that it has been available for two years and has yet to be upgraded. The dealer also has not heard of any firmware upgrades to be released either.

    I’ll admit my bias in that I am a huge Bryston fan, as I own a couple of their amps. Adding the SP 1.7 was a simple choice but as I explained, I wanted to be certain to explore some other options. The 1.7 didn’t disappoint during the audition, hasn’t disappointed in the first few days I’ve owned it, and I am confident won’t disappoint in the days, weeks, and months ahead. As I have said many times in this review, it is an incredible unit. Would I ever consider upgrading from this unit in the future? Well … you never say never in this wacky hobby but the leap would have to be significant and at a reasonable price point to cost justify the move. After all, your ears (really) can only hear so much. That being said though, who knows what new options will be available in the months and years ahead and whether Bryston will allow the 1.7 to be upgraded. But for now, I am one VERY happy camper!
    jpiscitello@ameritech.net
  • brucek
    HTG Expert
    • Aug 2000
    • 303

    #2
    jimmyp58,

    Good review - always nice to purchase something and then be pleased with it.... :T


    The only issue that caused a pause was that the manual differed from the labeling on the unit’s front regarding the “Dynamic Range Control
    Don't really understand that? 'Max' dynamic range switch position is up. This is how it shows in the picture and the manual. This is the position you select for turning off all the limitations to dynamic range - and certainly the position I use. I don't want my dynamic range limited.


    One thing I noticed is the XTRA Bass mode really adds bass,
    Well yeah, why would you use this feature? If your speakers are set to 'large' it adds Xtra bass to the subwoofer. This practice is usually frought with cancellation problems. Do you not set all your speakers to small? I use small for all my speakers with a cross at 60Hz. No need for 'xtra bass'.....

    Bryston simply blew away the DAC’s from my CD transport (Sony CDP-M555ES)
    This of course is a problem with upgrading - it begets more upgrading.

    For music, when the 1.7 is in 'BYPASS', it acts as a standalone analog preamp that accepts analog only from a CD or DVD or 2 CH SACD player, that hopefully has good power supplies, stable internal clocks, high quality DAC's and above average line circuits so that a pristine unaltered analog signal that is 'bypassed' and sent to the power amp can be appreciated. All digital in the 1.7 is shut off.

    Alternately, if the player is anything but of the highest quality, it is better to set the 1.7's 'BYPASS' to off and use the digital connection. This eliminates the players own DAC's and line circuits and uses the 1.7's DAC's. As you say, they are very good, but the only way to truly appreciate a good bypass is with a high quality player. From your comments, it sounds like you may be in the market for one? 8O

    brucek

    :edit....fixed my quotes...again..duh
    Last edited by brucek; 09 August 2004, 19:42 Monday.

    Comment

    • Adz
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2004
      • 549

      #3
      Hey Jimmy,

      I'm sure you already know this, but your review above made the Bryston official website (www.bryston.ca). Congratulations, that's really cool! :T
      Adz

      Comment

      • jimmyp58
        Super Senior Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 1449

        #4
        Thanks ADZ....
        jpiscitello@ameritech.net

        Comment

        • brucek
          HTG Expert
          • Aug 2000
          • 303

          #5
          Yeah, good one jimmy...very cool :T

          Comment

          • jimmyp58
            Super Senior Member
            • Aug 2003
            • 1449

            #6
            thanks brucek!
            jpiscitello@ameritech.net

            Comment

            • luszer
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2003
              • 120

              #7
              jimmyp58

              Congrats on purchase, any chance you could comment on the comparision of the 1098 to the Krell Showcase processor.

              I have been thinking about upgrading my Rotel 1066, to either the 1068, however my dealer suggest the 1098 as the real upgrade.

              But for that kind of money I am thinking other options such as the Showcase


              My dealer states the 1098 is more than just the TFT screen.

              Any comments greatly appreciated

              Regards, Ron

              Comment

              • jimmyp58
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2003
                • 1449

                #8
                Ron:

                It would be tough to comment on the virtues of the 1068 to 1098 because I know very little about the 1068. IMO, the 1098 is more than the tft but this question would probably be better answered in the Club Rotel section. I would say that if you look at its predecessor, the 1066, compared to the 1098 then yes, the 1068 is MUCH closer in sound to the 1098 but there may be other factors that still give the 1098 a nod over the 1068.

                The Krell processor is dynamite but I felt the 1.7 was cleaner and more detailed than the Krell. I wish I could put my hands on it but I recall the Krell processor getting a pretty decent tumbs-down in one review though the amp got rave reviews. So there's at least one other guy out there that wasn't that impressed with the unit.

                I think it comes down to goals and listening proclivities (music vs. movies) and it is always good to listen to a couple of units. One question I'd have, too, is your budget. I mean it certainly appears the Krell would be in your budget so there are other options too. I really liked the Arcam AV8 along with the 1.7. They were very similar but I still believe (obviously - duh) the 1.7 was better overall. But it is a great option. And I wouldn't be too shy to take in the Anthem Statement D1. Is the Bryston 1.7 an option for you? If you need a lot of features (video switching, etc.) then probably not but everyday I listen to it I am more and more convinced I got exactly what I was hoping for (and more!).

                What I would say is that if you are looking at dropping 1098 money then yes, listen to the Krell, Arcam, Bryston, and Anthem. I will tell you that when I owned my 1098 I thought the sound was incredible. But what I discovered in this audition process is that while the 1098 is an awesome pre/pro, you get more clarity and detail (and in some cases a lot more clarity and detail) with the other units I mentioned. One noteworthy point in addition (and not contained in my long review) is that I have discovered a significantly better center channel performance from the 1.7 than I got from the 1098. So if you are into movies or multi-channel audio, whoa, huge difference. ADZ just got his 1.7 and he immediately noticed the same thing. Much more detailed and cleaner center response than the 1098 (he had the 1098 too).

                I hope this helps...

                Jim
                jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                Comment

                • brucek
                  HTG Expert
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 303

                  #9
                  One noteworthy point in addition (and not contained in my long review) is that I have discovered a significantly better center channel performance from the 1.7 than I got from the 1098
                  I have to agree jimmy. I think with any higher end processor (including all the ones you mentioned), there is an immediate clarity realized for both center and surrounds. The voices seem clearer from the center, plus you don't get that terrible echo/distant sound that a mid-fi processor always seem to have in the rears.

                  brucek

                  Comment

                  • luszer
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 120

                    #10
                    Jimmyp58 and Brucek

                    Thanks for the insight.

                    The budget keeps going overbudget in reviewing all the pieces you mention. Like many large purchases, I find myself saying for the additional cost I can go 1 step up the food chain. ie, if I was going to spend x on the 1098 then for $700 more I can go Showcase, then for another $700 can go 1.7. So it a tough circumstance, and an additional $1500 later.

                    I am probably 70% music and 30% HT, but I really enjoy movies so even though the weighted focus is on 2 channel I don't want to comprimise too much on a movie track.

                    Tons of features and multi-channel audio is not a concern, I am strictly 2 channel and currently only 5.1.
                    That's why the 1068 or 1098 is in the running, b/c of the newer functions; such as a 2 channel setting (large/full range, sub off) and then a seperate DD/DTS (small, 80 crossover). Both settings in memory and no additional changes being made once set.
                    Also, component video switching would be ideal, I have 3 component sources and only 2 inputs on my RPTV. But I am currently not using it on the 1066.

                    A friend mentioned the Arcam AVR300 as an option in comparision to the AV8. I think there's one nice feature with the AVR300 being 100x7, is that if you are 5.1 you can take the 2 remaining channels and bi-amp your front l/r.

                    Decisions, decisions, decisions....its suppose to be fun, but somewhat stressful!!

                    Thanks for you help fellows

                    Ron

                    Comment

                    • jimmyp58
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 1449

                      #11
                      Without spending your money nor suggesting you not consider all your alternatives, the Bryston 1.7 is a unit that would keep you very, very content for many years to come. Especially that you are more music than movies, just like me, this is truly the ideal unit for you. But make no mistake, it absolutely shines with movies as well.

                      For 2-channel, the Bryston is ideal whether you go with the DACs from your transport (you'd select BYPASS on the 1.7) which turns this into an absolutely awesome analog pre-amp; you have the option (though not listed in the manual to either have no sub or add sub for bypass) or use the DACs in the 1.7 which arguably, might be the best in the business. You can set your fronts to large and not have a sub either. All in the setup my friend.

                      Video switching would be an issue but you can purchase an Audio Authority 1154 (I believe the MSRP is $199) which allows you to connect up to four (4) component sources and has one output to your TV.

                      Best yet if you really are interested in the 1.7, you need to e-mail me as I might have a source that can really get you in-line with your budget. See my profile to send me an e-mail for details (if you are interested).

                      Jim
                      jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                      Comment

                      • luszer
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 120

                        #12
                        Thanks again Jim

                        It really helps to talk through with someone other than a dealer, for obvious reasons.

                        I will certainly hit you up for the info, if I find myself leaning that way

                        Ron

                        Comment

                        • jimmyp58
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Aug 2003
                          • 1449

                          #13
                          :T

                          I look forward to hearing from you....

                          Jim
                          jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                          Comment

                          • Adz
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 549

                            #14
                            I've had the Bryston sp1.7 pre/pro for 2 days now and will really put it through the test this weekend (this thing called work has put a damper on my home theatre time during the week :cry: ). What I CAN state so far is that this is a no-nonsense straight forward pre/pro. No fancy gadgets and simplicity abounds in the set-up -- All I had to do was connect the cables, make the typical bass management and callibration adjustments and that was it. But what's far from simple is the sound that's now coming out of my 6 speakers. As Jimmy told you, the two most immediate differences that jumped out at me was the center channel and subwoofer responses. All the typical adjectives used to describe the sonic qualities apply here such as more detail and more clarity. I'm still working on controlling the bass response that I want - can something be too dynamic?

                            I'm an 80-90% DVD video guy and can I honestly say at this point that I've achieved "soundtrack nirvana"? Don't know, but I do know I must be close!
                            Adz

                            Comment

                            • brucek
                              HTG Expert
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 303

                              #15
                              I'm still working on controlling the bass response that I want - can something be too dynamic?
                              Adam - nice to hear that you are pleased so far with the 1.7 processor.

                              I am very curious about how you control all those subwoofers (built-in and passive). Safe to say you must like bass, but it must be extremely hard to control.

                              I don't see a parametric equalizer (BFD) in your equipment list. I would think this would be a must in your situation, given the possibilities for low frequency interaction between multiple subs.

                              Which of those subs is driven from the processor sub output? Are you running all the speakers small?

                              brucek

                              Comment

                              • Adz
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2004
                                • 549

                                #16
                                Thanks for the reply Bruce.
                                Actually, I don't even have the passive sub hooked up yet. It will be going in the back of the room. Currently, I am running the pre/pro's RCA subout to the built in subs on the Def Techs using a Y connector I had specially made. All three front Def Techs are being run on large. The VMPS will be driven by the pre/pro's XLR subout into one of the CineNova channels. I am hoping that adjusting the phase control on the subwoofer to 180 will properly control the timing of the bass and mitigate any cancellation problems so that it perfectly blends with the front subs in the Def Tech. Wishful thinking on my part?
                                Adz

                                Comment

                                • brucek
                                  HTG Expert
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 303

                                  #17
                                  I am running the pre/pro's RCA subout to the built in subs on the Def Techs using a Y connector I had specially made. All three front Def Techs are being run on large
                                  hoping that adjusting the phase control on the subwoofer to 180 will properly control the timing of the bass and mitigate any cancellation problems so that it perfectly blends with the front subs in the Def Tech. Wishful thinking on my part?
                                  I have tried multiple subs myself and after doing frequency response checks, was never able to pull it off too well, so I switched to a single large sub with a parametric equalizer. But, many people are indeed quite successful with mutiple subs.

                                  I would think running your three front Def Techs on large is a bigger issue. In that regard, I personally feel it best to let the processor perform the bass management or you'll run into lots of cancellation problems. When you set a speaker on large and then in addition send the same low frequencies to a sub (as you've indicated) it creates problems.. (you must be accomplishing this by using the Xbass function of the 1.7, because when large is selected for a speaker, there is normally no output to the sub for that speaker).

                                  The small setting isn't an indication of speaker size, rather that you want the processor to manage the bass. Have you tried setting all your speakers on small with a cross of 60Hz and then send the sub out signal from the processor through your multi Y adapter and then to each powered sub? I think you would find it much cleaner and smoother sounding.

                                  brucek

                                  Comment

                                  • jimmyp58
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 1449

                                    #18
                                    I have a very similar setup as ADZ, the major difference is that I don't connect my sub-out from the 1.7 to the Def Tech BP7000SCs. But I do utilize two subs, one in front and one in the rear. It has taken some time but I have the phasing correct with no cancellation. And I do have my 7000s as well as my center channel (Def Tech CLR 3000) set to 'large'. Again, no problems. I know a lot of folks mention that you should set these speakers to 'small' yet the Def Tech engineers emphasize with passion that due to their cross-overs and built-in powered subwoofers, these speakers should be set to 'large'. Obvious care must take place if an owner also has an external sub(s) but it certainly can be accomplished and with great results.

                                    brucek, I know you have a lot more experience with the Bryston pre/pro than I, so I am always looking for a little help, but is the difference that significant if I (we) were to change to 'small'? I know I could try it but I am wondering what your thoughts are on this.

                                    Jim
                                    jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                    Comment

                                    • brucek
                                      HTG Expert
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 303

                                      #19
                                      a lot of folks mention that you should set these speakers to 'small' yet the Def Tech engineers emphasize with passion that due to their cross-overs and built-in powered subwoofers, these speakers should be set to 'large'
                                      Yeah OK, I agree with that, speakers with internal powered subwoofers are a special situation for sure. They're a case where you have handed over the job of bass management to the internal crossover in the speaker itself (by specifying Large in the processor). The only bass that would come from the processors 'sub-out' would be LFE channel information when playing 5.1 material. This would be cabled to the LFE input on the DefTech (I presume) and mixed with the subwoofer. I guess in this situation there would be minimal cancellation possibilities because each full range speaker with its associated sub would be producing a unique channel. I recant my 'set to small' suggestion.... ops:

                                      My concern is when you add external subwoofers as you have done and I presumed ADZ had done after I read his equipment list. To enable these external subs to get a signal, you must use Xbass to overide the shut down of the bass management (that is off since you have selected Large fronts). This seems counterproductive since you'll now have subs producing the same frequencies giving rise to cancellation problems. Of course, it may all work itself out and is easily checked by doing a simple frequency response of your room. 8O

                                      Generally bass frequencies are the most problematic because of room resonances that are set up between parallel surfaces (walls, ceilings, floors).These axial modes create standing waves that cause cancellations at various locations in the room, so careful speaker placement and equalization is essential at these frequencies if you had subs producing the same signals.

                                      The idea is that when one speaker produces a tone at a specific frequency and another speaker is producing the same tone at equal amplitude and 180 degrees out of phase there will be cancellation and varying degrees from that if you alter the amplitude and shift. Phase shift becomes a problem when two sources are mixed, whether electrically on a wire or in the air as sound pressure. If you have two signals 180 degrees (worse case) out of phase, you will have complete cancellation at that point. As a side note - this is the reason it's fairly important to ensure your speaker connections are "in-phase", because there's a very good chance that they'll be producing the same signal, and if it's 180 degrees out of phase, there will be cancellation problems.

                                      This was my point about setting your mains to small and let the bass management do its thing. That way your sub and mains won't be producing the same signals, they'll each have their own part of the spectrum, lessening the chance for phase cancellation. But I think you're correct, that with a DefTech it wouldn't be wise - they have designed the internal crossover to handle the management to the sub. My only suggestion I guess would be to watch out when adding Xbass to additional external subs. Maybe do a room response with the additional subs on and off and see if you're experiencing any dips in the low end........

                                      brucek

                                      Comment

                                      • jimmyp58
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2003
                                        • 1449

                                        #20
                                        Thanks for the response brucek...much appreciated. I have been fiddling a bit with the bass since getting the 1.7 as it is far more dynamic than the 1098 (as I have mentioned before). It all seems to be working fine but every so often I'll throw on a disc and it gets too bassy so I have to fiddle a bit more. But it is much better now than when I first got the 1.7 --- as you know, it's a work in progress.

                                        Thanks again, as always, for the input!

                                        Jim
                                        jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                        Comment

                                        • glimmer
                                          Junior Member
                                          • Aug 2004
                                          • 24

                                          #21
                                          May I know which power amps and speakers?

                                          Jimmy,

                                          Congrats for being able to find your true love.

                                          May I know what speakers and power amps did you mate with the SP1.7?

                                          Cheers.

                                          Comment

                                          • jimmyp58
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Aug 2003
                                            • 1449

                                            #22
                                            I have a Bryston 14B SST powering my mains (Def Tech BP7000SC), Bryston 7B SST powering my center (Def Tech CLR 3000), and Earthquake CineNova Grande 5 powering my surrounds (Def Tech BP7001SC). I have two external subwoofers, Def Tech SuperCube Reference for front and B&W ASW-600 for rear.

                                            Jim
                                            jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                            Comment

                                            • Adz
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jan 2004
                                              • 549

                                              #23
                                              brucek et. al.,

                                              Well, I finally received my external sub, the VMPS Larger Sub. It's quite an intimidating looking object. I will take pictures of it and my entire system shortly once I figure out which digital camera to buy. In the meantime, as I described earlier, this is a passive sub being driven by one of my CineNova amp channels connected to the 1.7's balanced sub out. Then I have a single speaker connection running to the Sub which results in 600watts of power. For the initial set-up I was advised to reverse the speaker lead connection at the sub so that it runs 180 degrees out of phase to the Def Tech built-in subwoofers. The idea here was that cancellation could be avoided as the Def Tech subs "push" at the same time the VMPS sub "pulls". For now, I have placed the sub against the middle of the back wall so it forms the top of a triangle with the Def Tech subs (which are built into the L&R front speakers). I made no adjustments on the 1.7 to accomodate the external sub (which JTanner at Bryston confirmed).

                                              Initial listening reaction is tri fold - I notice a slight decrease in Bass QUANTITY but an increase in Bass QUALITY (I'll explain the third fold in a moment). So, I am NOT noticing an absolute increase in bass output as I was definitely expecting, in fact the trembles and the jolts are a bit lessened perhaps due to some cancellation / interference?? (Tanner also confirmed that there is no degradation of signal as the subout signal is in parallel - so it is the same signal at the same level to both RCA and Balanced outputs).

                                              However, the quality of the bass output which is something I have never understood or experienced for that matter has increased quite noticeably. It might be that the bass now is "so clear" and not boomy that it sounds like there is less of it. I appreciate now that Bass is a very strange area of the sonic spectrum. Perhaps instead of boomy, fuzzy, monotone bass, I am hearing more detail and definition.

                                              The third overall reaction is that the sound quality from all the speakers in my system has increased dramatically which I appreciate is a big statement to make. But everything is now clearer, crisper and more forward sounding than before which I don't quite understand why this would be happening just from adding an external sub, but there is no doubt that it is happening. I'll take Jimmy's conclusion that all that powerful bass is no longer clouding the highs and mids that the Def Techs produce.

                                              I am going to allow a 50-100 hr break-in period and then will experiment with placement (putting the sub in the back corner of the room) and reversing the phase again so that's back in-phase with the Def Techs (note: there is no phase control on a passive sub).

                                              As always, your comments and suggestions are welcome. brucek, two things I thought you mentioned in your earlier post was that I should be running the subs in=phase with each other and I should have the XBass signal on to enable the external sub to get a signal. Currently, as I stated above, the internal/external sub(s) are running out of phase to each other and while I do have Xbass set to on, I was told the external sub running through the XLR connection on the 1.7 would get a signal regardless.
                                              Last edited by Adz; 27 August 2004, 12:08 Friday.
                                              Adz

                                              Comment

                                              • jimmyp58
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Aug 2003
                                                • 1449

                                                #24
                                                Nice review ADZ! It'll be interesting to hear how this process continues to unfold as you listen to more and more of the stuff you've heard before without the external sub.

                                                Jim
                                                jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                Comment

                                                • brucek
                                                  HTG Expert
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 303

                                                  #25
                                                  while I do have Xbass set to on, I was told the external sub running through the XLR connection on the 1.7 would get a signal regardless.
                                                  Adz,

                                                  I think there are a lot of issues here because you're using speakers with powered subs. Gets a bit confusing.

                                                  Let me first say that there are no absolutes when it comes to sound, so if something sounds good to you - the heck with the science behind it.

                                                  I'd like to go over what I feel is happening with a 1.7 in a 5.1 system with regular speakers and a single subwoofer hooked up, so we have something to compare to your situation. Later we'll discuss your powered sub mains and center. I'm sure you already know this stuff but it will be a place to start the discussion anyway. Feel free to disagree Jimmy..

                                                  Certainly there is no argument that the signal is available at both the RCA and XLR outputs "when a signal is available" to that channel....

                                                  If you select SMALL for all speakers with a crossover of 80Hz for example - The signal (when available for LF, RF, C, RR, or LR channels) below 80Hz will be directed to the subwoofer output and the signal above 80hz will be directed to the channels speaker. Simple. This would be the case for regular stereo (LF/RF only), DSP modes, and ProLogic. In the case of a 5.1 signal there is an extra channel on the disk known as LFE and it is also directed to the subwoofer output and mixed with all the redirected bass from all the other 5 channels.

                                                  In bypass mode, a full range signal is sent to the LR and RF channels and no output goes to the subwoofer unless you have the 'bypass sub' feature enabled, in which case a full range mono mix of LF and RF signals is directed to the subwoofer output that would need to be 'low passed' by dialing down the subwoofers low pass filter (which normally is dialed up to remove it from affecting the bass managed signal from the processor when not in bypass).

                                                  Now, in this simple situation if you decided for some reason that your main speakers would enjoy full range and you set the 1.7 to LARGE MAINS, then the redirected signal below 80Hz for the LF and RF channel won't go to the subwoofer output, instead it will go to the LF and RF channels only. It would seem logical that the signals below 80Hz for the C, RR, and LR channels will still be redirected to the subwoofer output, but the manual isn't explicit on this point and seems to indicate by omission that this info below 80Hz is lost if the mains are set to LARGE (I can't imagine this to be true - Jimmy?). Either way this would be the case for regular stereo (LF/RF only), DSP modes, and ProLogic. In the case of a 5.1 signal the extra LFE channel is still directed to the subwoofer output and (arguably) mixed with all the redirected bass from all the other 3 channels.

                                                  In this case if you decided to set your mains as LARGE, you have the ability to turn on the Xbass feature which will send the signals below 80 Hz for the LF and RF channels to the subwoofer in addition to it being sent to the LF and RF channels as a full range signal and of course the signals below 80Hz for the C, RR, and LR will also be redirected to the subwoofer output.

                                                  Now, where you are using a powered subwoofer set of mains like the DefTechs it seems logical to set the mains to LARGE so they can receive full range. The 1.7 subwoofer output could be plugged into the special LFE input of the DefTechs to receive LFE when available, but if you turned on Xbass though, then all the signal below 80Hz for the mains would be fed to this LFE input of the DefTech in addition to the same signal already being sent to the subwoofer in the Deftech from the full range LF and RF channels. Seems wacky and likely why jimmy doesn't use that connection? The phasing of these common signals is likely different when they reach the internal subs mixer.

                                                  Probably the best situation would be to not use the LFE input jacks on the Deftechs for this reason. Wouldn't it be best to set the mains (and center in ADZ's case) to LARGE and enable Xbass - then use the subwoofer output of the 1.7 to only feed an external subwoofer (or two if you want). Then the external sub(s) would receive LFE + all signals below 80Hz for all 5 channels. The use of the LFE inputs on the DefTechs may be counterproductive....

                                                  Yep, those internal subs are tricky.. :E

                                                  brucek

                                                  Comment

                                                  • jimmyp58
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                    • 1449

                                                    #26
                                                    Call me a purist but I never tried to do a LFE from my pre/pros (Rotel RSP-1098 nor Bryston SP 1.7) to the LFE ins on the Def Tech BP7000SCs. I, as you know, have two external subs and have calibrated it just right (although there is still a few times that I have to make an adjustment --- the SP 1.7 is just so much more dynamic than the 1098). My LFE signal from the pre/pro goes to these two devices.

                                                    In speaking with one of the engineers from Def Tech, he still, in this scenario, said I should set my mains to 'Large' and sub to 'yes'. I gues it's worked out for me very well. But I am intrigued by ADZ's setup and may give it a whirl. Why not? I have tried setting the mains to 'small' and I just didn't care for the sound.

                                                    Jim
                                                    jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                    Comment

                                                    • jimmyp58
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Aug 2003
                                                      • 1449

                                                      #27
                                                      Any update from the weekend of experimenting ADZ?
                                                      jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Adz
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jan 2004
                                                        • 549

                                                        #28
                                                        bruce / jimmy - thanks for your knowledge dump. I'm learning quickly that the subwoofer is the more complicated and trickiest tweaks of all. I'm sure you guys know this but I wanted to point out that according to the 1.7's manual, the Xbass function does not work in DTS or DD mode, so really we are only talking CDs in most instances where theXBass function is relevant??

                                                        What I have done so far is reverse the speaker wires on the passive stand-alone sub so that its now back in-phase (red to red, black to black) and it made all the difference in the world if one is looking for incredibly booming bass. Quite literally, the entire house is shaking from this set-up. But it's interesting as I'm not sure if this is telling me that I had some degree of cancellation with the previous set-up (i.e., running the external sub 180 degrees out of phase) or that the previous set-up was simply less fuzzy with tighter / cleaner more musical bass. Meaning, am I back to more bass quantity but sacrificing bass quality to get there??
                                                        Adz

                                                        Comment

                                                        • jimmyp58
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2003
                                                          • 1449

                                                          #29
                                                          Recall though too ADZ from a previous post that you can add the subwoofer for analog (bypass). I know you don't listen to much 2-channel but certainly for multi-channel audio, you go through the codes to turn on the subwoofer for this type of listening. It doesn't add a lot of bass, as it shouldn't, but it is a nice quality.

                                                          Now that the house is shaking, it's time to recalibrate with the bass management so that it isn't booming but that it's tight, deep, and dynamic ---the quality piece.

                                                          Jim
                                                          jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                          Comment

                                                          • brucek
                                                            HTG Expert
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 303

                                                            #30
                                                            ADZ,

                                                            But it's interesting as I'm not sure if this is telling me that I had some degree of cancellation with the previous set-up
                                                            Yes, it is indeed telling you that.


                                                            Meaning, am I back to more bass quantity but sacrificing bass quality to get there??
                                                            No - When there is too much bass (quantity), the perceived quality suffers. You must first solve the phasing problem by removing as much cancellation as possible (seems you've done that), then you must tackle the bass level (quantity). When the level is properly set up, your perceived quality will return...


                                                            the Xbass function does not work in DTS or DD mode, so really we are only talking CDs in most instances where theXBass function is relevant??
                                                            Correct, but I think that it's the ProLogic material that this feature is directed at - not CD... i.e. two channel movies from cable or satellite.

                                                            brucek

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Adz
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2004
                                                              • 549

                                                              #31
                                                              That's "sounds" good to me!
                                                              Would you guys recommend that I turn the bass volume down at either the pre/pro or at the Def Techs? The passive sub has no volume control. Perhaps its some combination of both, or else I think the volume at the Def Techs would need to be turned way down to compensate for the extra bass being put out by the separate sub. However, then I struggle with the fact that turning down the bass level at the 1.7 decreases the strength of the signal. Help.
                                                              Adz

                                                              Comment

                                                              • jimmyp58
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Aug 2003
                                                                • 1449

                                                                #32
                                                                Unfortunately ADZ, it's a trial and error thing. It took me quite a while to get it right when I had my 1098 and as you know, I am still tinkering a bit since I got the 1.7. Remember when I got my 1098 I was moving up from the Denon AVR-5803. That sucker couldn't push a sub to save it's life and it definitely couldn't push my BP7000SC's. I spent an inordinate amount of time fussing with the sub settings. I've been reading some threads about another member getting his Parasound Halo C2 and how that dynamic it is and how he's tinkering with it. I don't think anyone would argue that the C2 is better than a Rotel 1066 or 1098, and that the Bryston rates out higher than the C2. So if he's tinkering with new found dynamics, you know that you and I might have to tinker even more.

                                                                If I didn't have the setup now with my 1.7 as I did with my 1098, I'd be in the same predicament as you.

                                                                I wish I could help more but unfortunately, your room is different than mine and your ears hear different than mine. I feel for you in that while you are wading through all this it can be somewhat frustrating. You're a bright dude my firiend and you'll get there!

                                                                Jim
                                                                jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                Comment

                                                                • SpOoNmAn
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2003
                                                                  • 518

                                                                  #33
                                                                  noone mentioned the Halo controllers when listing high end gear

                                                                  I see that avatar is getting popular, lol.

                                                                  Theatre Photo Album (A work in Progress)
                                                                  GameTracker -My List-
                                                                  Life is short, Play it LOUD!

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • brucek
                                                                    HTG Expert
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 303

                                                                    #34
                                                                    ADZ,

                                                                    This is where you'll have to do some level matching. As jimmy says, It will be a bit of trial and error, back and forth deal. Jimmy may be more help here because he uses DefTechs.

                                                                    In the end you're going to have to level match the passive sub with the subs in the DefTechs. Since the output level of the DefTech subs is also dependant on the left and right mains output level setup from the processor, you've got a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Hopefully you don't have the 1.7 subwoofer output also going to the LFE input on the DefTechs, because if you do, level matching will be quite difficult. This is because the LFE output level is set with the 1.7 subwoofer level control, and you'll need this control free to set the level of the passive sub, which has no volume control of its own.. :roll:

                                                                    I would suggest first using the 1.7 speaker level test to set up the 5 main speakers and then use some CD test tones through the LR and RF speakers to level match the DefTech subs (with their own volume controls) to the mains (do this with the passive sub off).

                                                                    Then since the passive sub has no volume control, you'll have to set its level with the processor subwoofer output level control (with DefTech subs on) and try and level match the passive to the DefTech subs- hopefully it will be at a reasonable match to the system level somewhere around 0dB. I believe the range is from -10dB to +10dB on the 1.7. That's lots of range, but hopefully you don't have to go above about +5db.

                                                                    The addition of the sound from your passive will now reinforce the output already coming from the DefTech subs and will no doubt be too high overall. What do you do? If you turn down both the DefTechs subs and passive sub equally to obtain a satisfactory overall system level (while maintaining a matched level between the three subs), then would the DefTech subs not be too low in simple two channel when not using the passive. Tricky..

                                                                    You might be better to keep the DefTech subs matched perfectly to your mains and use the passive at a considerably lower level.....

                                                                    brucek

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • jimmyp58
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Aug 2003
                                                                      • 1449

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Aaron:

                                                                      That Halo IS high-end gear, no doubt. But my bias tells me that Bryston might be a notch higher (IMHO).

                                                                      :T

                                                                      Jim
                                                                      jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • SpOoNmAn
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Sep 2003
                                                                        • 518

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Lexicon, Meridian, Arcam, Anthem, Rotel, Krell.

                                                                        No mention of Halo

                                                                        Im so sensitive 8O

                                                                        LOL, ok enough fooling around, Im going to watch a movie. :T

                                                                        Theatre Photo Album (A work in Progress)
                                                                        GameTracker -My List-
                                                                        Life is short, Play it LOUD!

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • jimmyp58
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Aug 2003
                                                                          • 1449

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Good suggestions brucek and probably where I was heading with this. I have my Def Tech Reference sub set at level "x --- ~ 11:00" and guaranteed, I have my rear B&W ASW-600 sub set much lower (~ 9:00). Then I make the adjustment for bass management with the 1.7. With ADZ's setup the LFE to the Def Tech BP7000SC's is straightforward but with adding a passive sub with no gain control really makes things tricky. I am convinced it will work but like I said before, it'll just take time. :sn

                                                                          Jim
                                                                          jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • jimmyp58
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                                            • 1449

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Aaron:

                                                                            She's a beautiful piece and high end gear! I couldn't go to listen/audition the piece because my wife put her foot down and would only let me get a black component. Go yell at Parasound for me (lol).

                                                                            No offense for the omission my friend....

                                                                            Jim
                                                                            jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • brucek
                                                                              HTG Expert
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 303

                                                                              #39
                                                                              With ADZ's setup the LFE to the Def Tech BP7000SC's is straightforward but with adding a passive sub with no gain control really makes things tricky.
                                                                              Well exactly. I think if he insists on this 'LFE to DefTech' connection he'll have to add a line amp with a volume control between the 1.7 and the power amp for the passive.....no way around it. My suggestion - lose the LFE connection to the DefTechs and only use the subwoofer out from the 1.7 to feed the passive as you've done...much more simple.. 8O

                                                                              brucek

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • jimmyp58
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Aug 2003
                                                                                • 1449

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Never even thought about a line amp with a volume control ... you're on it brucek!

                                                                                Jim
                                                                                jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Adz
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jan 2004
                                                                                  • 549

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Thanks again for all the great feeback!! Having put the investment and time into the HT, I certainly want to realize its maximum potential and to that end it looks like I have a decision to make - either running the LFE through the Def Techs or pulling the plug on them and just running the passive sub. What I'd like to understand better are the differences between the two -- basically what am I giving up and what am I potentially gaining by not using the LFE inputs on the Def Techs?
                                                                                  Adz

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • jimmyp58
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                                                    • 1449

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I think you'll still find you'll get a wonderful bass response from the 7000's --- you just won't get an LFE signal sent there. You can tinker with the gain controls and I am confident you can find the right setting to give you great bass response in the front as well as LFE bass response from your new beast in the rear (or wherever it may end up).

                                                                                    Good luck as always my friend!

                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                    jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • brucek
                                                                                      HTG Expert
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 303

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      ADZ,

                                                                                      Setting the Mains and Center speakers to LARGE in the 1.7 means the three front DefTechs will receive a full range signal, so your DefTech subs won't be missing anything except the special LFE .1 signal on DD and DTS material (which will go to the passive only).

                                                                                      Feed the 1.7 subwoofer outout only to the passive sub and this LFE .1 signal plus redirected surround signals below your crossover would go to your passive sub with its level controlled from the 1.7 subwoofer output.
                                                                                      Turn on Xbass if you also want redirected front channel signals below your crossover to also feed the passive sub for non DD and DTS material (since this type of material has no LFE .1 signal of its own).

                                                                                      In this configuration, you will have better control of your speaker levels. The passive sub level will be exclusively controlled by the subwoofer speaker level of the 1.7 processor, which you need since you have no other volume control for the passive.

                                                                                      You could give this configuration a try and see how it sounds. You can always change it back if you don't like it.

                                                                                      brucek

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • jimmyp58
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Aug 2003
                                                                                        • 1449

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        The 'large' setting is the ticket brucek and you are absolutely dead-on with everything else mentioned.

                                                                                        Like he said ADZ, if you don't like it you can always change back but it is worth a shot anyway.

                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                        jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Adz
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Jan 2004
                                                                                          • 549

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          If I wind up lovin' what you guys are suggesting (i.e., disconnecting the LFE inputs on the Def Techs and feeding the 1.7 subwoofer outout only to the passive VMPS sub) what you think about bi-amping the VMPS for more power? I currently have a 6.1 system and expect to for some time which left open 2 channels on my CineNova 300x5 amp. I am currently using one of them for the Sub (600 watts at 4 ohms), so if I use the remaining channel, I presume I would double the output to 1,200? :T
                                                                                          Adz

                                                                                          Comment

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