Subwoofer - ASW850 VS ASW855 VS Velodyne DD18

[nick.h]

Hi,

I'm in the market for a subwoofer and looking at,

1. ASW850 $2,500 (S/hand)
2. Velodyne DD18 $4,500 (S/hand)
3. ASW855 $5,200 (New)

The ASW850 is the cheapest option, is there much difference between that and the ASW855? Any owners of both here?

[Aldo]

NO, I have both 850 and 855 and they are almost identical, the woofer is from a different material but they sound almost the same!

I love them both!

[nick.h]

Aldo: Did you listen to the Velodyne's?

[Aldo]

Aldo: Did you listen to the Velodyne's?

The only Velodyne I listen was about 15 years ago, and I was impressed!

[nick.h]

I'm just wondering if the DD18 is worth $1500 more then the ASW850.

[BassThatHz]

If you're looking for measurements to help you out on this, this is a place to start:
You might want to test out a F-113 or SVS 13 Ultra... you never know.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/jl_fathom_f113.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_3/svs-pb13-ultra-subwoofer-9-2007-part-3.html

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=0&SQ=0

I personally like the looks of the 855 better, but I believe even the DD-15 outperforms the b&w's in all areas. The biggest difference is when you start playing really loudly or deeply (100db+ at under 30hz), the servo will trade power/driver compression for lower distortion. If you keep the db's under 95 then it seems that they are all basically the same and it would be a waste of money for you.

I would be happy with any of these...

[georgev]

I have just posted a topic in Audio hideout, but perhaps can tap into the expertise available here in the B&W forum.
For pure two channel music, no multichannel or movies, which sub to go for.
B&W 802's driven by a Mark Levinson 336. I would like the lower end at low volumes to be a bit fuller.
Any suggestions/thoughts?

[BassThatHz]

When you get into the upper ranges of the b&w (803D+), I would imagine that you would be better off doing without a subwoofer for pure 2 ch.

The reason being that there is no way of just inserting one subwoofer as it would require that you inject yet another crossover (low or high level) and mix the signals to mono. Even if you did that, you would probably have to place the sub in between the two fronts; otherwise it would, ever so slightly, over power one side of the room or the other with bass.

It would truely require two subwoofers to maintain pure stereo bass, and that you bi-amp your main's and implement two of your own external Mundorf high-level crossovers or something...
;x( Come on Aldo we all know you are hiding a pair of custom-built B&W Nautilus subwoofer prototype's that does all this stuff :rofl:

Another ever so slightly non-purist approach, would to be split the low level signal once for the tweeter/mid which would go directly to your 336 (one per channel) and into the 802 internal tweeter/mid crossover; the other side of the split would go to something like an ULTRADRIVE PRO DCX2496 where you could insert say a "stereo 30hz crossover" passing the >30hz signal into perhaps another 336 and onto the woofer crossover's in your 802's, the <30hz would connect to each subwoofer. You would then disable the subwoofer's crossovers and level match each sub individually to its sibling 802 woofers. :scratchhead: Eccentric I know, but this is my cup of tea and from my experience thus far, leads me to believe it would actually take this level of technicality to avoid injecting far greater distortions to the upper frequencies that most consumer-typical (avg joe) subwoofer integration solutions enevitably endure.

You could also just upgrade to 801/800's :T

my 2 cents...

[dknightd]

I would like the lower end at low volumes to be a bit fuller.
Any suggestions/thoughts?

Assuming you are not listening to big organs, drums, electonica or some thing else with any power below about 35hz, there is no need for a subwoofer with your speakers.

Wanting more bass at low volumes is natural. Your ears do not hear bass well at low volumes. I can't remember right now the name for this effect, but it is real.

In days past, many preamps had an adjustment for this. It was called the "loudness" control - sometimes a button, sometimes a dial. Basically what it did was provide a small bump in the bass (and often the high frequencies) to account for this effect. Most of these controls would slowly reduce their effects as you turned the volume up. It is a shame this feature was eliminated from some hi-fi gear. Some preamps still have this feature, and, another button to remove it, and other tone controls, from the circut. This is the best way to do things imo - allow for the controls, but allow for them to be bypassed.

If your preamp has tone controls you could just give the bass a little increase when listening at low volumes. Not a replacement for a proper loudness control, but better than nothing.

Your brain can be taught not to need this low volume correction, and in fact I rarely use it, but I don't think I'd buy a preamp without it.

Adding a sub will not solve your problem (unless you listen to music with frequencies below what your speakers can reproduce). Well, it could solve your problem at low volumes by doubling up on the bass frequencies - but then you'd have to turn the sub volume down when you turned the speaker volume up. Better IMO to just be able to push a button on your preamp to engage the loudness circuitry.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Likely not shared by everybody.

[dknightd]

To the original poster - I'd go with the velodyne unless matching appearance was important to you.

[moonlightdrive21]

I know this is not what you asked, but do yourself a HUGE favor and do some research on the JL Fathom subwoofers. Good luck!

[scanido]

I would go with the DD18 or, like most others recommended, the JL Fathoms.

[Sanman023]

my 2 cents....DD18...

[Minardi2]

JL f113 would be my choice provided you can live without the room EQ system built into the Velo.

[nick.h]

But for $2500 ASW850 compared to $4500 DD18 seems a huge saving.

[georgev]

The DD15?

[Charles]

DD-15 works great too. I've had the 15 and currently have the 18. Not a major difference, but my large room size required it.

[georgev]

Service from JL Audio a wee poor.
I mailed them to make enquires about the Fathom series as we don't(AFAIK), have a dealer here. No reply. I tried to phone and left a message for the chap who deals with home audio, still no response.
I guess that rules it out.
Back to Velodynes?

[Karma]

HI,
I have a couple of things to add.

First, I chose a pair of B&W ASW800's to add bass to my 805S based bedroom 5.1 system. This system is augmented by my primary music only system in my listening room. It also has dual subs that can move the walls but integrate beautifully with my Martin Logan CLSIIA electrostatic mains.

At the time I was researching the bedroom system (2 years ago) B&W was changing their subs over to the new drivers. I auditioned the new version and the previous version in the same system and speaker location. I did not hear any significant differences. For the difference in price I cold not justify the new subs. Hence, I bought the ASW800's and I am very happy.

Next, equally important to deep, powerful bass is the interface between the main speakers and the subs especially for 2 channel music use. Being a long time sub user (35 years) I know the interface will make or break the setup. I like the bass provided by Velodyne but I have never heard these subs interface well with the main system. This takes me off the Velodyne bandwagon. The ASW800 interface with my 805S's is very nearly perfect and the bass is deep and powerful enough, certainly for music. Note, I am a bass lover. HT performance ain't bad either.

Next, full range floorstanding speakers are very difficult to integrate properly with subs. As mentioned above, you should think twice before adding a sub to speakers that already go pretty low and music is the main use. For HT the situation is different since bangs and booms are the primary goal. Excellent integration is the reason that I select mains with limited bass response. This allows the subs to operate over a wider frequency range wihch gives the crossovers a chance to flatten out and integrate better with the mains. I usually cross over at 50 to 65 Hz depending on the mains capabilities. I never coss over higher because that causes the crossovers to start flirting with the very important lower mid-range frequencies.

Next, I find it very important to be thinking about the subs and mains together as an integrated whole and not buy one before you know the other. Only in this way can you fully optimize the interface.

Next, I do not use hi pass crossovers for music except in some special cases. When I do use them they are always first order passive filters. Normally, I just let the mains naturally roll off. High pass filters (especially those that have active circuits) cause more trouble than they are worth. Carefully chosen mains and subs allow this.

Last, but vitally important; do NOT under woof. Many folks choose single and/or small subs to save money. Bad!! You will be much better off to either buy a large sub or buy dual subs. I prefer dual subs due to the room interface advantages they offer. Subs have to work really hard. It's best to give them as much help as possible. Large drivers and/or dual subs accomplish this.

Sparky