It appears that my ears prefer the wavelength of a smaller driver. After trying dual then one Velodyne DD18 in my room, I found that they were not able to produce the musical bass I like. Then I moved to the Sunfire Signature 12” and found some improvement but similar negative results. While I feel these subs would support HT spectacularly, in my room for my taste they actually detracted from the musical quality. Namely breaking down the imaging.
One doesn’t pair up Mac 501’s and B&W 800D’s with the purpose of distorting images. So, the big subs had to go.
Disappointment forced me stop and think this thing through for a month or two. After more research and the help from good forum members I decided to give it another go. I talked to the techs at Sunfire as well as a Sumiko master support tech for REL and I decided to try the smaller 10 inch EQ sub from Sunfire. My thinking on this is that 2700 watts will control two 10 inch drivers better than two 12s. I placed the sub in the corner, EQ’d it with their built in software to my room and began some volume, phase and crossover trials.
Here is my opinion on the results.
My room is 19’8” x 24 x 8. The 800D’s handle bass down to 30hz better than anything I’ve ever heard and which is one reason I purchased them. Accurate bass is mandatory. I have the Sunfire crossed at its lowest point of 30hz. Anything higher caused a reduction in the clean performance of the 800D’s. Volume is just a fraction hair below the 0db mark (about half volume). Phase is at 90.
I find the smaller drivers offer enormous punch and articulation at the deepest notes that they are able to produce. While the musicality of the 800D’s are unaffected by the Sunfire when crossed at 30hz (imaging perfectly intact) the sub bass frequencies have finally decided to come out to play with the rest of the band. Most notable is the kick drum. Feeling the impact and hearing the bottom end of the drum kit has caused the drummer to appear as a clearer and better balanced size of the image which not only adds to the live performance realism but has created the illusion of further depth. I must say, this added depth is a benefit I was not really expecting. It is wonderful. The entire image of the drum kit is more apparent and brings the feeling of the musicians being in the room with the drummer in the back like a real stage performance. I am thrilled with this particular result. One of the keys is to keep the sub volume level real. It’s tempting to increase the volume for the WOW effect it offers but to get lasting, non-fatiguing and musical bass one has to understand that volume can make or break the proper integration of a sub and many folks play a sub too loud for music.
While impact bass without the disruption of the imaging has always been my goal for the sub, deeper more complete soundstage turned out to be a fantastic unexpected bonus. I will keep the Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ (11 inch cube) in my system. But I would also like to say that even though I’ve never heard REL gear, the fact that they use 10 inch drivers makes a whole lot of sense to me. I might suppose that the REL Studio III may just be one of the best subs known to man. However, I will be satisfied with the Sunfire as long as I never hear the Studio III. If you invite me over for a listen to it, I will not come. Beer? Yes. REL? No. 9K is a price I’ve decided I don’t want to pay for a sub and it's better I just don't hear it if you know what I mean. As for Velodyne, the same thing might apply to their smaller drivers. Since they also use the same amp in the 10 – 18 inch subs, I might also imagine the 10 inch would be an interesting audition for two channel.
From this point forward I will encourage two channel music people to audition powerful 10 inch quality subs along with the usual big sub recommendations that most dealers suggest before purchasing.
One doesn’t pair up Mac 501’s and B&W 800D’s with the purpose of distorting images. So, the big subs had to go.
Disappointment forced me stop and think this thing through for a month or two. After more research and the help from good forum members I decided to give it another go. I talked to the techs at Sunfire as well as a Sumiko master support tech for REL and I decided to try the smaller 10 inch EQ sub from Sunfire. My thinking on this is that 2700 watts will control two 10 inch drivers better than two 12s. I placed the sub in the corner, EQ’d it with their built in software to my room and began some volume, phase and crossover trials.
Here is my opinion on the results.
My room is 19’8” x 24 x 8. The 800D’s handle bass down to 30hz better than anything I’ve ever heard and which is one reason I purchased them. Accurate bass is mandatory. I have the Sunfire crossed at its lowest point of 30hz. Anything higher caused a reduction in the clean performance of the 800D’s. Volume is just a fraction hair below the 0db mark (about half volume). Phase is at 90.
I find the smaller drivers offer enormous punch and articulation at the deepest notes that they are able to produce. While the musicality of the 800D’s are unaffected by the Sunfire when crossed at 30hz (imaging perfectly intact) the sub bass frequencies have finally decided to come out to play with the rest of the band. Most notable is the kick drum. Feeling the impact and hearing the bottom end of the drum kit has caused the drummer to appear as a clearer and better balanced size of the image which not only adds to the live performance realism but has created the illusion of further depth. I must say, this added depth is a benefit I was not really expecting. It is wonderful. The entire image of the drum kit is more apparent and brings the feeling of the musicians being in the room with the drummer in the back like a real stage performance. I am thrilled with this particular result. One of the keys is to keep the sub volume level real. It’s tempting to increase the volume for the WOW effect it offers but to get lasting, non-fatiguing and musical bass one has to understand that volume can make or break the proper integration of a sub and many folks play a sub too loud for music.
While impact bass without the disruption of the imaging has always been my goal for the sub, deeper more complete soundstage turned out to be a fantastic unexpected bonus. I will keep the Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ (11 inch cube) in my system. But I would also like to say that even though I’ve never heard REL gear, the fact that they use 10 inch drivers makes a whole lot of sense to me. I might suppose that the REL Studio III may just be one of the best subs known to man. However, I will be satisfied with the Sunfire as long as I never hear the Studio III. If you invite me over for a listen to it, I will not come. Beer? Yes. REL? No. 9K is a price I’ve decided I don’t want to pay for a sub and it's better I just don't hear it if you know what I mean. As for Velodyne, the same thing might apply to their smaller drivers. Since they also use the same amp in the 10 – 18 inch subs, I might also imagine the 10 inch would be an interesting audition for two channel.
From this point forward I will encourage two channel music people to audition powerful 10 inch quality subs along with the usual big sub recommendations that most dealers suggest before purchasing.
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