Thinking about adding 802D's to my 803D's

[Stevebez]

Well upgrade bug has hit me hard ... ouch ... how about moving my 803's to surrounds and using 802's as mains and getting the HTM2D for centre? Are the 803's as surrounds overkill ?

Currently running the 803's off a Rotel 1092 and will get a second 1092 to run the 802's .... I will use the spare channels on my 1075 to run the HTMD2 (using two amp channels) in a bi amp / wired mode. The 1075 just looks more impressive than a 1091 thats all ). And I will use the spare channels on the 1075 for zone 2...

Any advice welcome...

Rgds Steve.

[ShadowZA]

What worked for me is that I beefed up my dedicated audio source & amplification which was originally Rotel. Now my 803D's really sing imho. A better speaker upgrade for me now (if that is what I were to do) would be to replace the 803D's with 800D's (rather than 802D's) as mains & move the existing 803D's to surround duty. A caveat there is. And it is that imho the HTM2D is the best match to the 803D's (except for another 803D as centre). The huge HTM1D is probably a better match to the 800D's & 802D's due to the common Marlan head ... although there are folk out there who do use the HTM2D & 802D's together.

Regarding myself, I seem to be quite satisfied with my sound at present and am not aiming for a speaker upgrade ... yet :B

If you are a critical music listener and have enough space & pounds handy ... my suggestion then would be to beef up electronics first (Classe', Krell, etc) ... and then ... all things permitting ... a pair of 800D's.

Are the 803D's overkill as surrounds? There is no such thing as overkill concerning our hobby. :twisted: :P :twisted:

Seriously though, unless you rate quality surround sound as most important (noting that recordings providing sufficient dedicated audio quality & dynamic to surrounds are rare), I am of the opinion that, at this time, the 803D's could be a bit of an overkill. But hey, don't let that stop you. :T

Also: take a look at what RebelMan has to say regarding the bass hump attributable to the 802D's here (post # 22):

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26968

Good luck

[Stevebez]

802D bass hump? First I hear of this ... will check it out.

All I really need is a HTM2D centre - but might be able to get the 802's and htm for a decent saving second hand.... so it got me thinking ... also there is a 5 week wait for a new htm....

[george_k]

Are the 803's as surrounds overkill

You might as well be driving a Ferrari to do grocery shopping :-)

I agree with Shadow about beefing up the supporting system and also the room if you haven't done so already.

[Stevebez]

OK OK ... ill get the HTM2D and call it quits then ... that does complement the 803 better and make a fine front line ...

I am busy with the room treatment ... and thats quite a job at mom .... finally got a plan of what needs to be done ... anyone have experience with greenglue?

I just have really weak surrounds in speakercraft stuff which needs updating so I thot mmm 802's :T + keep the 803's... o well.... bank manager will sleep easier now anyway...

You guys are no fun! My wife would appreciate your efforts though !

[dmccombs]

Steve,

I went throug h a similar delema. If you listen to a lot of music, then having a 802d, HTM2D, 803d would make sense as the 802d up front will help 2CH music.

If you are more into music and 5.1 music, the you could go woth 803d, HTM2d, 803d. Having 5 matched speakers of the 803D quality would be killer...

Personally, I ended up with 802D, HTM2D, 804S. It works for me but I wonder at times if the 5 matched speakers would have been a better choice as I listen to more 5.1 sources than 2CH.

Regards,
Darrell

[RebelMan]

Stevebez, what are you using for a front end? Without knowing how you split your time between music and movies I think adding an HTM2D and replacing the Speakercraft surrounds with an 800 Series solution would offer you the best balanced speaker upgrade. If you are looking to improve 2CH then Shadow and dmccombs have the right ideas.

dmccombs, for your system I think you can put to rest some of the wonder. The wide dispersion pattern of those Marlan headed floorstanders will carry the majority of the surround sound envelopment in your multi-channel array. None of the other sans-Marlan speakers can approach.

If there are any weaknesses in your system to speak of, it would be the HTM2D. Unless the diamond tweeters are aligned in the same horizontal plane the front stage will not be seemless. Furthermore, the midrange timber will be colored and chesty given the boxed enclosure for the FST driver regardless of the speaker's position.

I am currently running a 4.1 system with a temporary phantom center using MCH BD music sources and the results are impressive. I suggest you give the pantom a try and make a comparision of it to your HTM2D. It confirmed for me that only an HTM1D will do as a dedicated center for the 800D.

[misterdoggy]

Hey Guys, Been a while. I agree with the general consensus here that unless you are listening to 5.1 MUSIC and not just 5.1 cinema, money invested in the surrounds is not the most important area.

I am using the 802d's and htm2d in the front and a pair of 804S' for surround work, but now am seriously thinking about a dedicated 2ch system for stereo and a separate system for HT.

What would I do ? I'd go for a quality Amp. In my setup I'd probably move the McIntosh 501's with the pair of 802D's in to a listening room and move the 804s' to front duty with the htm2d and probably just get 805s' for surrounds.

Why ? Because the 804s' are already a great speaker and the most important speaker in the HT is the Center Channel, this is where the largest % of information goes, and the HTM2D is a great speaker. The Surrounds in a HT just don't have that much work, when the bombs are going off on the beach in Private Ryan, or the bullets shooting by left and right, the surrounds play, but lets face it, they are just not that big a role and IMHO don't rate a big investment.

If you listen to 5.1 music then that is a different story. I prefer and always will 2CH sound.

My second choice would be to have a second room (my office where I am all day) and just shoot a second room sound from my second 7 channel McIntosh MC207 amp with the 804s' and replace their work in the Surround area to 805s.

804s or 805s for surrounds.

Just my 2 cents

[Stevebez]

I guess it 50:50 music movies ... movies in 5.1 and music in 2.1.. Velo DD12 as sub using sub to eq out the bottom end ...

Currently got the speakercraft centre and surrounds and the 803's as mains.

The centre is the obvious weakness ... and I will get the HTM2D here regardless I think. Ill try the phantom setting and see how that works - may be worthwhile to see how it compares to the speakercraft centre.

Got 1092 driving 803's and 1075 driving surrounds / centre ...

Was looking for a HTM2D but stumbled over a decent offer for a set of 802's and HTM2D so it got me thinking ... 37% off RRP is not too bad for 2yr old units in supposedly superb condition.... It also fixes the surrounds weakness....

I think in future sometime music in 5.1 a la DVD-A / SACD / BR / HDDVD will be probably all you will be able to buy ... thats unitl they come out with lossless 2ch or something - shessh its tough to keep up isnt it !!!

[misterdoggy]

I guess it 50:50 music movies ... movies in 5.1 and music in 2.1.. Velo DD12 as sub using sub to eq out the bottom end ...

Steve,

This is the same as saying you have a home theater and listen to 2ch stereo, so surround work is minimal. I don't think the future is 5.1 and there are less and less offerings. They used to say that, but now its 2ch and less manufacturing in sacd. Also many are switching to 2ch analog records. Back to the future huh.

Was looking for a HTM2D but stumbled over a decent offer for a set of 802's and HTM2D so it got me thinking ... 37% off RRP is not too bad for 2yr old units in supposedly superb condition.... It also fixes the surrounds weakness....

I think in future sometime music in 5.1 a la DVD-A / SACD / BR / HDDVD will be probably all you will be able to buy ... thats unitl they come out with lossless 2ch or something - shessh its tough to keep up isnt it !!!

Steve,

Have you checked out Ebay Germany

http://audio.search.ebay.de/B-W_Audio-Hi-Fi_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ3QQsacatZ10614QQsatitleZBQ26WQQsbrsrtZd

Keep your eye on it as there are lots of deals. You just need to use a translater program (babelfish) and most Germans speak English.

[Stevebez]

Think I will just get the HTM for now see how that works, finish the room treatment, and review ... the speakercrafts at surround will have to do for now ... I think the 803's and the HTM2D aslo make a better paring than the 802's & HTM2D - HTM1D is better suited to the marlan head 800 series I think.... so no need for me to rush into this - I like the idea of the 805S at surround down the line but will need to mount it on the walls.... is this possible?

May need to go SCMS instead here

[misterdoggy]

I like the idea of the 805S at surround down the line but will need to mount it on the walls.... is this possible?

May need to go SCMS instead here

The only way to wall mount the 805s is to buy it without stands (less expensive) and put it on a shelf

[hifiguymi]

I will somewhat disagree with most here and say don't under estimate the impact that high perfromance rears will have on your system. It's amazing how much better the movie experience is with speakers like the 803 used as rears. I do think room treatments are very important so that is a good place to start now, but I don't think 803's are to much rear if you get 802's in the front.

Eric

[misterdoggy]

It's amazing how much better the movie experience is with speakers like the 803 used as rears.

........ but I don't think 803's are to much rear if you get 802's in the front.
Eric

My point of view is that If I was sitting and in a listening room and you played Brendel playing Mozart, I could clearly tell the difference between an 802 and 803.

But if I was in the same listening room and you put any movie that has a good amount of surround information, I "don't think" that I could say there was that much difference.

Why..... because the amount of information going to the rears compared with the studied and very accurately defined 2 front important stereo channels verses "effects" of the rears (bullets whistling by)

Would a 803 be better than a 603 yes. Would an 803 be better than an 804 and you could tell which bullets private Ryan was ducking, I would think it would be difficult.

Of course, you could have 802D's or for that matter 800D's all around and it would be the Ultimate system. It just gets very fine indeed when discussing surrounds in a HT (Not SACD) IMHO

[george_k]

I don't think the future is 5.1 and there are less and less offerings.

Agreed, I've heard a lot of poorly mixed 5.1 music.

It's amazing how much better the movie experience is with speakers like the 803 used as rears.

I can agree with that statement only from a cost being no object perspective otherwise your better off putting you money elsewhere (doesn't even have to be audio related). If he's doing 50/50 music and movies then, his rears are only being used half of the time. If you also factor in the number of movie genres that have an engaging rear surround mix (e.g. action, suspense) vs the ones that don't (e.g. comedies, chick-flicks, etc...) the percentage that the rears get used to their fullest is further reduced.

Acoustics and center channel aside I'd consider adding another DD-12 if the space is large.

[Stevebez]

Think Ill get the HTM, sort out the room and see where things stand. I have to get the HTM anyway.

Room is fairly large for dedicated cine / music room at 6mx7mx2.1m... however
bass definately is not a problem the 803 with the DD12 is plenty of low end .. and its tight accurate bass - no floppyness whatsover, which actually surprised me ... I thot I would need an extra DD12 to beef up the low end, but really happy with it at mom. The HTM set to large will also help to some extent.

So the options are (once room and HTM are added are):-

1 Keep current surrounds and see if it bugs me (it probably will )
2 Replace surrounds with SCMS (using exsiting 1075 amp)
3 Replace surrounds with 805S (using existing 1075 amp)
4 Get 802's as mains and move 803's to surround (but will need to add another beefier amp to satify the setup).

So as things stand now I think I am heading for #2 as this suits the room layout more too.... also its got a much better chance of getting approval from the missus!

Option 3 really does'nt make sense since if I am going to use that footprint in the room then I think I am better off going 803 to rears...

So #2 it is and #4 if I hit the lotto.

Thanks!

Rgds Steve.

[misterdoggy]

I think the center channel is the most important channel as I said before.

After you get that sorted out, Next step would be to get a great amp for listening to stereo and front 2 ht speakers like

Pass labs, Levinson, McIntosh, Classe, krell, the like

[RebelMan]

So the options are (once room and HTM are added are):-

1 Keep current surrounds and see if it bugs me (it probably will )
2 Replace surrounds with SCMS (using exsiting 1075 amp)
3 Replace surrounds with 805S (using existing 1075 amp)
4 Get 802's as mains and move 803's to surround (but will need to add another beefier amp to satify the setup).

Stevebez, you are looking for a balanced system to share between dual channel and multi-channel sources. I have alluded to it earlier in this thread that your best option hands down is #2. If you were looking to optimize one format or the other with your system then I could see you making a trip to one of your other options.

Learn from my situation. I have some regrets with my system. Given the constraints of my room integrating an HTM1D is not going to be easy and there are no alternatives for the Marlan headed floorstanders. Sorry folks but the HTM2D just doesn't cut it. For your needs a setup like the one Shadow has is best. Although he is using the floorstanding 804s for his surrounds the wall mount SCMSs will not disappoint. They compliment my system quite nicely.

I also agree with hifiguymi that you DO NOT want to skimp on surrounds and you DO NOT want to underestimate their importance in the role they serve. It would be extremely short sided to think otherwise given that the increase of HD soundtracks are just over the horizon. You’ll need the performance from your surround speakers to keep up and to blend harmoniously with your front array. This point embarassed my doubting Thomas neighbor last weekend when he was invited to my in home demo. He rarely if ever concedes.

[RebelMan]

After you get that sorted out, Next step would be to get a great amp...

Pass labs, Levinson, McIntosh, Classe, krell, the like

Absolutely! My experience with the RB-1091 and 1092 would have precluded them from making it to the short list. They can deliver pleanty of power but that is about all. I'll just leave it at that.

[misterdoggy]

I had a couple of Pass Labs Amps and they blew me away. They had the detail and punch of krell, refined like levinson, the only thing I didn't care for was the looks (which I like McIntosh the best)

[Stevebez]

Ordered the HTM2D and the pair of SCMS... even if I get the 802's later I will be able to use the SCMS as rears or elsewhere in the home...