Surrounds and sub-woofer suggestions for 802Ds and HTM2D fronts

[RalphoR]

Hi all. I was wondering which surrounds (both sides and rear) and sub-woofer you would suggest to go with 802D R/L and an HTM2D center speaker. I have been using older Boston Acoustic speakers and my Boston PV1000 sub-woofer has an issue so I'm looking to upgrade.

I have looked at the DB1 sub-woofer and thought it may be overkill with two 802Ds but I can afford that one if it's not too much bass for what I have currently up front. I'd like to stay with B&W so I would like to know which B&W speakers would be good choices for the side and rear surrounds. Thanks for any replies in advance!

[htsteve]

RalphoR,

Excellent question. I also have 802D's and the HTM2D. They are in an 11 X 16 dedicated HT room.

I have not done 7.1 because I like discreet channels and there is not 7.1 discreet material.

I agree that for the rear/surround speakers, you should stick with B&W. Preferably, it should be the same line (800 series) to match the fronts.

I have 804S's as rears. Towers as rear speakers are excellent. With the HD audio formats available on Blu ray, the performace of the rears is more important than in the past. The system integration of the 804S's is outstanding. You can also consider 805's.

My sub is the JL Audio Fathom F112 (which recently replaced a Velodyne DD18.). It is a truly reference sub. And it is definitely not too much for the 802D's. They work very well together. Retail price of the F112 is $2800. I believe the DB1 is $4500. The bigger Fathom F113 is $3600, I believe.

If you really want to go a bit nuts on the sub, there is this for $6000 (but I would probably get one JL Audio sub now and save some money to get matching rear speakers):

http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=375

What size is your room? Are the rear/surround speakers restricted in any way (i.e. they have to be on the the walls, etc.)


Hope this helps.

[KahunaCanuck]

We need more info to give you decent advice, the size of your room, the positing for the surrounds & sub, is this strictly movies or some surround music? Also I think you are saying 7.1 not 5.1?

I used to run 805s as rears and was happy with them, though now I have 803Ds in the rear and am much happier with them filling the room with more sound, though I listen to SACDs and DVD-As and you may not.

Let us know!

[ryan.devry]

I would have to go with HT Steve on the sub. The JL audio line of subwoofers are my favorite. They have excellent control, good room calibrations, and go low. It was great to see them finally get into home audio, I've always picked them number 1 for my car...lol

[Mage]

htsteve,

Can you comment on the DD18 vs. the Fathom F112? I have an HGS-15 and an HGS-18 and the 18 eats the 15 for breakfast. I have heard more car and home audio subs than most people and I just haven't heard (felt) anything like the velo 18's. Do you feel like the single 12 inch woofer is capable of replacing the 18, or did you change for other reasons?

[JargonGR]

The Velo was an excellent sub at its time but nowadays it has been surpassed by subs costing much lower like the SVS PB13-Ultra as well as the Fathoms.

If I was you I would forget the velos and look elsewhere.

What do you really want from your subwoofer? Is it maximum output,lowest extensiom ease of use and facilities like Room Correction, small size, looks?

If for example you need maximum output there is no contest for the price of an SVS PB-13 Ultra or two but they are huge!

What size is your room again?

[JargonGR]

htsteve,

Can you comment on the DD18 vs. the Fathom F112? I have an HGS-15 and an HGS-18 and the 18 eats the 15 for breakfast. I have heard more car and home audio subs than most people and I just haven't heard (felt) anything like the velo 18's. Do you feel like the single 12 inch woofer is capable of replacing the 18, or did you change for other reasons?

Regarding driver size don't think about it size wise. The SVS is only 13,5" and eats a lot of 18s (especially older ones) for breakfast.

Cabinet size and design, driver technology and even amplification, all account for the final result.

[AV-OCD]

htsteve,

Can you comment on the DD18 vs. the Fathom F112? I have an HGS-15 and an HGS-18 and the 18 eats the 15 for breakfast. I have heard more car and home audio subs than most people and I just haven't heard (felt) anything like the velo 18's. Do you feel like the single 12 inch woofer is capable of replacing the 18, or did you change for other reasons?

I can't speak for htsteve, but I went from a DD15 to a F112, and to these ears, the JL beats the Velo in every performance area, and it is smaller. The JL is more visceral, more punchy and articulate, and it is capable of higher output than the DD15.

The F112 will hold it's own with the DD18 from about 30Hz on up, but to match the output of the DD18 below 30Hz, you would want to go with the slightly larger F113. Actually, the F113 will beat the DD18 in output across the board, which is pretty reamarkable when you think about it. It's all because the JL 13" driver has almost 3 inches of linear exursion vs. about 1 inch of excursion for the DD18 (if memory serves me correctly).

[htsteve]

I can't speak for htsteve, but I went from a DD15 to a F112, and to these ears, the JL beats the Velo in every performance area, and it is smaller. The JL is more visceral, more punchy and articulate, and it is capable of higher output than the DD15.

Mage,

A good question on F112 vs. DD18 (BTW, the actual driver size is about 15.5" on the DD18 ). The statement about are my exact thoughts. I was impressed with the DD18. Still am. However, I like to explore the next performace step. The one area the DD18 didn't always impress me was there were times I felt it needed to smack me upside the head, and it often didn't.

So I auditioned the Fathoms. With my reference material, I immediately noticed the visceral impact I was wanting. And, the musicality was better.
So I ordered an F112. Now that I've had it for awhile, I can say that, yes, this 12" F112 definitely can replace a DD18. The F112 is better in every way.

I also agree with JargonGR. Thinks like cabinet design, power supply, etc. make a serious impact on the overall performance. I really looked into JL Audio before I demoed. They really paid attention to every part of the sub.

For example, the F112, while being about 1/2 the size of the DD18, actually weighs a little more. That tells you something about the construction, power supply, etc.


Hope this helps.

[HedgeHog]

+1 on the JL sub. I run an F113 with the 802D and HTM2D. Works very well together.

[RalphoR]

Thanks for the comments. Sorry I didn't give my room specs. I have a 30' x 20' room. The rears are wall mounted and sit about 26 ft. behind the fronts. The surround sides are approx. 18 ft. back on each side. I have a full 7.1 system with the Classe SSP-800 driven by a CA-5100 (running the side/rears) and a CA-3200 driving the fronts. I use the room for about 85% movies and 20% music (no SACD/DVD-A). I have a Pioneer Elite BDP-09 blu-ray player. I have one sub sitting exactly to my right and the other (needing repair) sits six feet behind me to my left. I sit about 11 feet back from a projector.

Since I have wall mounted sides and rears I'm wondering, if I stay with the 800 series, if I should go dipole all around or a mix of monopole speakers (all will be wall mounted). It also sounds like you all think the DB1 is waaay overkill (I can get a decent deal on one locally). Thanks again...

[htsteve]

Since I have wall mounted sides and rears I'm wondering, if I stay with the 800 series, if I should go dipole all around or a mix of monopole speakers (all will be wall mounted). It also sounds like you all think the DB1 is waaay overkill (I can get a decent deal on one locally). Thanks again...

Thanks for the clarification. Since you want wall mounted rears and sides, a very good match would be the SCM1 speakers (from the 800 series). They are essentially a flattened 805 that are wall mountable. They aren't made anymore, so second hand is your path.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1276284887&/B-W-Nautilus-SCM1-cherry

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1276284376&/B-W-Nautilus-SCM1-Red-Cherry

There is also the DS8 to consider:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1274211979&/B-W-DS8S-$1900


Also, I had these dipoles in my system for quite awhile. They generate an excellent sound field. They could work very nicely as sides. They aren't the 800 series, but they were the forerunner to the 800 series and has many similar design features, and they do work quite well.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1274482977&/b-w-SCM-8-

As for B&W's current lineup, there is not alot to choose form. The DS3 would be the one closest to the 800 series. It is either monopole or dipole. I would use it as a monopole behind your listening position and as dipoles for the side positions.


Now for the sub. Since the DB1 is so new, it's hard to say if it would be overkill. You have a large space to fill. It may work out very nicely. I think many of us who own or have heard JL Audio are amazed at the performance of the subs at the prices being charged. My old DD18 cost almost 2X as much as the list price of an F112.

For your large room, I would consider the F113. Or if the budget allows, a pair of F112's ( :E ). You should get a discount on a pair that might put the cost only a little more than the cost of a DB1. You can also call JL Audio direct. They were quite helpful to me.

Have you had a chance to listen to the DB1?


Hope this helps.

[wettou]

Thanks for the comments. Sorry I didn't give my room specs. I have a 30' x 20' room. The rears are wall mounted and sit about 26 ft. behind the fronts. The surround sides are approx. 18 ft. back on each side. I have a full 7.1 system with the Classe SSP-800 driven by a CA-5100 (running the side/rears) and a CA-3200 driving the fronts. I use the room for about 85% movies and 20% music (no SACD/DVD-A). I have a Pioneer Elite BDP-09 blu-ray player. I have one sub sitting exactly to my right and the other (needing repair) sits six feet behind me to my left. I sit about 11 feet back from a projector.

Since I have wall mounted sides and rears I'm wondering, if I stay with the 800 series, if I should go dipole all around or a mix of monopole speakers (all will be wall mounted). It also sounds like you all think the DB1 is waaay overkill (I can get a decent deal on one locally). Thanks again...

Go with a pair of JLF112 rather than a single F113 :T

[RalphoR]

Thanks for the suggestions. I wound up fixing my second sub (it was under warranty for another 35 days so I lucked out). I went ahead and got a pair of B&W DS8S speakers for my sides. WOW...damn, they are crazy big and can be wall mounted (at about 30 lbs each, that was a bear). They sound incredible. I'm tempted to get another pair for my rear surrounds before the DS8S speakers are gone forever. They're last years' model and a few A-stock are out there. I highly recommend them however mounting them are a challenge.

They come with three switches on the back:

1) For the tweeter...to make more/less brighter or set in the middle for no change.

2) To switch between monopole/dipole. I have mine set for dipole.

3) Not exactly sure what this one is for but I believe it's for direction (which way the front of the room is) as the symbol is two triangles pointing towards each other. I set them both pointing towards the front of my home theater. If someone could clarify, that would be great.

To htsteve: I never had a chance to hear the DB1 but to hazard a guess I bet it sounds awesome. Not getting them, though.

[AV-OCD]

3) Not exactly sure what this one is for but I believe it's for direction (which way the front of the room is) as the symbol is two triangles pointing towards each other. I set them both pointing towards the front of my home theater. If someone could clarify, that would be great.

Yes, that's the way to do it. Face the speakers so that the arrows point to the front of the room where the L/R speakers are. It is necessary to do this with dipole speakers because youe want the driver that is facing the front of the room to be in phase with the front speakers. If you were to point the arrows to the back of the room, there would be a gap in the sound as it travels from the front speakers to the surrounds.

[Antonkk]

One of my surrounds will have ~ one foot up to the wall and another 1,5 ft up to the window (though covered with steel window blinds behind the light drapes) - I'm not sure 805 will do fine. What other options do I have?

[Antonkk]

Anyone?

[Antonkk]

So do 805's require a lot of space from the wall to sound good as surrounds? If yes, what are the alternatives?