for my 801Ds --> McIntosh MC 1201 or Classe CA-M400???

[tingj]

I bought a used pair of 801Ds.

I can get either McIntosh MC 1201 or Classe CA-M400 monoblocks at almost the same price. I need to make a decision by tomorrow and cannot audition either.

Recommendations?

My listening room is 40 x 15 and I listen to classical music almost exclusively.

Thanks in advance.

JT

[Pedro]

Well if you BIAMP yours 801D, then CA-M400 could be excelent choice.

If dont, McIntosh, is better, more than 1000W per channel

[akhter]

at the upper end of classe and mac amps, it will come down to personal preference as they are both great. I personally like the mac synergy with B&W speakers, but B&W seems to have a close association with classe.

plus mac has those big blue meters!!!!!

[Tommy]

The Classe retails for 10k a pair and McIntosh 18K a pair. If you can get them at almost the same price, I would go for McIntosh for sure.
Plus, 400W might not be enough for those huge woofers in the 801D

[RebelMan]

If we are going to evaluate the MC1201 and CA-M400 on the basis of power alone then a closer look is required. McIntosh amplifiers are designed to output the same power across each impedence tap. In the case of the MC1201 this is 1200 watts at 8, 4 and 2 ohms. McIntosh amplifiers also employ an output transformer or autoformer. As a result the power impedence tap that most closely matches the impedence curve of the speaker should be used. This is because power drops off significantly as impedence loads drop. It also results is an inability for the amplifier to sustain large power requirements for continous durations.

Assuming the 4 ohm tap was selected the MC1201 would produce 1200 watts of power. The CA-M400 can produce nearly 900 watts of power into the same 4 ohm load and about 1300 watts into a 2 ohm load. I don't know what the MC1201 can output in a 2 ohm load utilizing a 4 ohm tap. But I have seen the 8 ohm tap limited to about half of it's rated power, i.e, about 600 watts, on a 2 ohm load. If we assume that the 4 ohm tap was capable of doubling it's output on a 2 ohm load then the MC1201 would be no more capable than the CA-M400. On the contrary, the CA-M400 is potentially more powerful and definitely more linear than the MC1201.

Pick the Classe'!

[DeepEndX]

These are two great amps and it is a tough call. If you listen to classical most of the time, MC would be a great choice. MC is known to be extremely fluid and great for classical.

[tingj]

Thanks. Those were some great answers. I think I am going to go with the Classe, even though the MC 1201s are a much "better deal" and much more attractive IMO.

Is the list price of the McIntosh really 18k??

JT

[Pedro]

These are two great amps and it is a tough call. If you listen to classical most of the time, MC would be a great choice. MC is known to be extremely fluid and great for classical.

Between McIntosh and Classe wich is better for Rock, Hard, and/or metal?? I´m doubting between MC501 and CA-M400 for my 803D´s

[Pedro]

I think I am going to go with the Classe,

Personally i´ve never listen to Classe or McIntosh. But if you with the CA-M400 i would recomend you buy 2 CA-M400 for each speaker. THe 801D´s demands a lot of power :T

[jericho]

If we are going to evaluate the MC1201 and CA-M400 on the basis of power alone then a closer look is required. McIntosh amplifiers are designed to output the same power across each impedence tap. In the case of the MC1201 this is 1200 watts at 8, 4 and 2 ohms. McIntosh amplifiers also employ an output transformer or autoformer. As a result the power impedence tap that most closely matches the impedence curve of the speaker should be used. This is because power drops off significantly as impedence loads drop. It also results is an inability for the amplifier to sustain large power requirements for continous durations.

Assuming the 4 ohm tap was selected the MC1201 would produce 1200 watts of power. The CA-M400 can produce nearly 900 watts of power into the same 4 ohm load and about 1300 watts into a 2 ohm load. I don't know what the MC1201 can output in a 2 ohm load utilizing a 4 ohm tap. But I have seen the 8 ohm tap limited to about half of it's rated power, i.e, about 600 watts, on a 2 ohm load. If we assume that the 4 ohm tap was capable of doubling it's output on a 2 ohm load then the MC1201 would be no more capable than the CA-M400. On the contrary, the CA-M400 is potentially more powerful and definitely more linear than the MC1201.

Pick the Classe'!

Rebelman

I know you are a favorite of Classé but I can assure you, I tested both, the Cam-400 and the 1201 from McIntosh, talking about the power there is a big difference, the 1201's have a lot more power than the Cam.This doesn't mean they are a better match but even the Mc-501 gives as much power as the Cam-400.

[RebelMan]

Hey Jericho,

Using the 8 ohm tap the MC1201 has been tested to produce 1500 watts into 8 ohms, over 2K watts into 4 ohms but only 700 watts into 2 ohms. Provided that the 8 ohm tap is used the MC1201 will be more powerful than the CA-M400. However, B&W 800 Series speakers frequently delve below 4 ohms loads. It could be risky to drive the 801Ds using the 8 ohm tap because of the lack of power needed to sustain 4 to 3 ohm loads.

According to the majority of McIntosh and B&W owners/listeners, audible performance was preferred when the 4 ohm tap was used. This feedback tends to support the lab results. Since the 4 ohm tap is rated to deliver 1200 watts into a 4 ohm it is unlikely that it would produce more than 2K watts into a 2 ohm load but let’s assume for the moment that it could. The CA-M400 is capable of more than 1K watts into the same 2 ohm load. Hence, the best case scenario would give the MC1201 a 3dB advantage over the CA-M400, again BEST CASE. A 3dB delta is negligible unless the listener intends to push reference levels (well over 90dB) on a regular basis or if less sensitive speakers are going to be used. I doubt either will be the case for the OP.

Assuming your demo was constant, then the only variable to change would be the amplifiers. If you level matched each amplifier before listening then it would be impossible to know that the MC1201 was more powerful than the CA-M400 UNLESS you drove each amplifier to clipping levels and recorded the SPL at that instant. If you didn't level match each amplifier and the MC1201 "seemed" more powerful to you then that would be the difference you detected between amplifier input sensitivities and output gains not power.

I agree that the MC1201 is in general a stronger amplifier than the CA-M400 but not necessarily with the 800 Series and certainly not that it would make any difference to the majority of listeners. In the studio where 110+ dB is more likely needed it could be a different story.

BTW, I drove my 800D with a pair of CA-M400s to 107dB at 12 feet and neither the speakers nor the amplifiers flinched. :W

P.S. Prior to testing, Stereophile preconditions the amplifiers it reviews to one third their rated output for one hour. The MC1201 failed this test indicating that it is a weak performer under continuous loads. Its an extreme case but a telling one.

[Glenee]

I don't know the answer to this ! But I do know this. I have 802D's, I bought a Pair of MC501's to go with them after I had been running them on some Crown K2 Amps. I was very disappointed in the 501's in the beginning, I repeat VERY pissed OFF. The amps started shutting down due to thermal stress, everybody on all the forms, including some of MacIntosh own people were telling me that I had something wrong. Either a wire touching, Missed wired, Wrong Taps all the stuff that people try and help you out with, the easiest first. Tried all of it. In my mind I'm thinking what a piece of sh&t. The crowns were much better than this and I might add a whole lot cheaper. The I got my own Idea, you see I have got to make this work with all the begging I have done with the wife. I was on my last straw when I came across some PQ fans. They had a high flow rate and very low DB about 39. Hooked them up to the trigger switch on my Power conditoner so that when I turn the Pre on the amps and the fans come on. Problem solved. Now they just Rock. Under enginered by Mac. You Bet, but they did so many things right . I have come to love the sound of the Mac's. So smooth.Let your Ears be the judge. That is just my taste. I'm sure that either one will be pleasing to the ear.
Glenee

[DeepEndX]

Between McIntosh and Classe wich is better for Rock, Hard, and/or metal?? I´m doubting between MC501 and CA-M400 for my 803D´s

IMO Classe. Music gets kind of weird when rock, hard, or metal is too fluid. Maybe some people prefer it. I would audition the amps if you get a chance.

RH

[Pedro]

OK DEEPENDX I will make an audition. What amps do you recommend for these kind of Genres??

[jericho]

Hey Jericho,

Using the 8 ohm tap the MC1201 has been tested to produce 1500 watts into 8 ohms, over 2K watts into 4 ohms but only 700 watts into 2 ohms. Provided that the 8 ohm tap is used the MC1201 will be more powerful than the CA-M400. However, B&W 800 Series speakers frequently delve below 4 ohms loads. It could be risky to drive the 801Ds using the 8 ohm tap because of the lack of power needed to sustain 4 to 3 ohm loads.

According to the majority of McIntosh and B&W owners/listeners, audible performance was preferred when the 4 ohm tap was used. This feedback tends to support the lab results. Since the 4 ohm tap is rated to deliver 1200 watts into a 4 ohm it is unlikely that it would produce more than 2K watts into a 2 ohm load but let’s assume for the moment that it could. The CA-M400 is capable of more than 1K watts into the same 2 ohm load. Hence, the best case scenario would give the MC1201 a 3dB advantage over the CA-M400, again BEST CASE. A 3dB delta is negligible unless the listener intends to push reference levels (well over 90dB) on a regular basis or if less sensitive speakers are going to be used. I doubt either will be the case for the OP.

Assuming your demo was constant, then the only variable to change would be the amplifiers. If you level matched each amplifier before listening then it would be impossible to know that the MC1201 was more powerful than the CA-M400 UNLESS you drove each amplifier to clipping levels and recorded the SPL at that instant. If you didn't level match each amplifier and the MC1201 "seemed" more powerful to you then that would be the difference you detected between amplifier input sensitivities and output gains not power.

I agree that the MC1201 is in general a stronger amplifier than the CA-M400 but not necessarily with the 800 Series and certainly not that it would make any difference to the majority of listeners. In the studio where 110+ dB is more likely needed it could be a different story.

BTW, I drove my 800D with a pair of CA-M400s to 107dB at 12 feet and neither the speakers nor the amplifiers flinched. :W

P.S. Prior to testing, Stereophile preconditions the amplifiers it reviews to one third their rated output for one hour. The MC1201 failed this test indicating that it is a weak performer under continuous loads. Its an extreme case but a telling one.

Sorry Rebelman but as I'm from Belgium , and not so good in English, I can not defend my case as well as you but take a look on the AK forum and try to talk to Masterlu, he has every model of McIntosh amp, as well as the 2KW's.He tested Levinson, Krell etc...Money is not a problem, he only want the best for his setup.I'm not telling McIntosh is the best, I would say let your ears judge, but to me the Classé was my second choice.So I liked them very well but I found the Mac's having a lot more power, and perhaps it's only an idea but take a look at the manual of a 1201 (200 amp current output!!!)

[sikoniko]

This is such a subjective question. For me, mac's are just ok. I thought about it when I bought my classe. Classe dealers aren't as snobby either in my experience.

[RebelMan]

Sorry Rebelman but as I'm from Belgium , and not so good in English, I can not defend my case as well as you but take a look on the AK forum and try to talk to Masterlu, he has every model of McIntosh amp, as well as the 2KW's.He tested Levinson, Krell etc...Money is not a problem, he only want the best for his setup.I'm not telling McIntosh is the best, I would say let your ears judge, but to me the Classé was my second choice.So I liked them very well but I found the Mac's having a lot more power, and perhaps it's only an idea but take a look at the manual of a 1201 (200 amp current output!!!)

What speakers is he driving with his McIntosh? Is he using the MC1201 or 2KWs for them? How loud does he like his music?

Jericho I am not knocking McIntosh for their sound quality but I do question their true performance (power) ratings. But if I were to comment on sound quality you should know that I have attended, by invitation only, a full blown McIntosh demonstration using optimal equipment in an acoustically designed room totalling well over $500K dollars. My impressions of the presentation that evening left me thinking that the brand is a little overrated to put it mildly.

BTW, your English is better than you think. :T

[RebelMan]

Classe dealers aren't as snobby either in my experience.

LOL, it's been a similar experience for me. One of "THE" MAC dealers in our local market, actually it was the owner I talked to, is the epitome of a hifi snob. When I asked him to explain the difference between two pieces of equipment all he could say was "it is more musical". "Okay... so what does that mean from your perspective mister high-end dealer?" I though it was a pompously lame response given his aristocratic demeanor.

[toddm]

The Stereophile test results showing Macs not being able to sustain 1/3 power output over a short period of time is really troubling to me. I guess the outboard fan solution is workable but it doesn't speak well of their engineering. And all the more so because that is supposedly one of Mac's strong points. If someone has a logical and reasonable defense of Mac in this area I'd sure be interested in hearing it. I've decided on the 802D myself and the MC501 is a possibility but as I say, this issue troubles me.

[Glenee]

The Stereophile test results showing Macs not being able to sustain 1/3 power output over a short period of time is really troubling to me. I guess the outboard fan solution is workable but it doesn't speak well of their engineering. And all the more so because that is supposedly one of Mac's strong points. If someone has a logical and reasonable defense of Mac in this area I'd sure be interested in hearing it. I've decided on the 802D myself and the MC501 is a possibility but as I say, this issue troubles me.

In defense of Mac. I must say they sure put alot into a 501 monoblock, Sound, Looks, and a reasonable size for that much clean power. I think if they would of put the heat sinks needed for that kind of amplification it would of been a monster and wouldn't look right. Adding the PQ fans was no big deal.
Glenee

[jericho]

What speakers is he driving with his McIntosh? Is he using the MC1201 or 2KWs for them? How loud does he like his music?

Jericho I am not knocking McIntosh for their sound quality but I do question their true performance (power) ratings. But if I were to comment on sound quality you should know that I have attended, by invitation only, a full blown McIntosh demonstration using optimal equipment in an acoustically designed room totalling well over $500K dollars. My impressions of the presentation that evening left me thinking that the brand is a little overrated to put it mildly.

BTW, your English is better than you think. :T

The guy i'm talking about is using McIntosh speakers (I know, different load) but I also know a friend of mine here in Belgium who used the MC-501 on the new 802D and he blew up the woofer.The new 802D is not as difficult to drive as the old 802N.So if you doubt the power of the 1201, it's more than the double of the 501.Using that much on the 800D, driving them at high levels, is very dangerous to damage the speaker at my opinion.I'm sure this will never happen using the cam's, and it's true B&W and Classé are perhaps made for each other but different ears, different taste I would say.

BTW thanks for the compliment about my English

[Josh]

What speakers is he driving with his McIntosh? Is he using the MC1201 or 2KWs for them? How loud does he like his music?

Jericho I am not knocking McIntosh for their sound quality but I do question their true performance (power) ratings. But if I were to comment on sound quality you should know that I have attended, by invitation only, a full blown McIntosh demonstration using optimal equipment in an acoustically designed room totalling well over $500K dollars. My impressions of the presentation that evening left me thinking that the brand is a little overrated to put it mildly.

BTW, your English is better than you think. :T

While I own and have owned a fair amount of McIntosh gear, I recognize their place in the grand scheme of audio. This is something that has become even more clear to me as I have been demoing various components from MarK Levinson and Krell in my home over the past few weeks. I agree with your comments and have found McIntosh amps to be overrated and underpowered when driving low ohm loads hard, and the various tests out their by Stereophile and others prove it.
I've listened to the McIntosh 2kw dream system several times, and I would say while the sound was big, loud and clean, it simply did not offer the detail and accuracy you would expect for a system that costs so much. The 2kw system is the ultimate "show off and impress your friends" system, but for the critical listener, it leaves a great deal to be desired depending on what you are looking for.
McIntosh is great for people that like tube sound, but want SS reliability. Those looking for high end SS sound with high levels of detail, control and accuracy, McIntosh is not for you. They simply lack the detail, speed and bottom end to be placed into this category. The McIntosh sound is also colored as they are voiced with an extra attenuation in the mid range.
Part of the purchase price of McIntosh is buying into a name rich with history, like Harley Davidson. The rest pays for some really great looking and solidly constructed components. If you are buying McIntosh and soley considering its sonic performance, than frankly, the stuff is overpriced and more audio rack jewlery than fine audio.

[Relentless]

For those of us that are debating between Mac and Classe this has been an enlightening thread :T

[toddm]

I noticed a mid range coloration too, in the Mac stuff i've listened to. Quite easy to hear. But I can't tell if its the amps or the speakers, as the demo systems were all Mac. But its definitely there. Having said that, i can't say yet whether I find it objectionable, just that its there. I should be honest about why I"m even considering Macs---I like the blue meters, I have fond memories of Mac amps from my teenage years, I like the resale value, and I like the reliability and support. Whether those things are enough to close the deal remains to be seen. I suspect not.

[jericho]

While I own and have owned a fair amount of McIntosh gear, I recognize their place in the grand scheme of audio. This is something that has become even more clear to me as I have been demoing various components from MarK Levinson and Krell in my home over the past few weeks. I agree with your comments and have found McIntosh amps to be overrated and underpowered when driving low ohm loads hard, and the various tests out their by Stereophile and others prove it.
I've listened to the McIntosh 2kw dream system several times, and I would say while the sound was big, loud and clean, it simply did not offer the detail and accuracy you would expect for a system that costs so much. The 2kw system is the ultimate "show off and impress your friends" system, but for the critical listener, it leaves a great deal to be desired depending on what you are looking for.
McIntosh is great for people that like tube sound, but want SS reliability. Those looking for high end SS sound with high levels of detail, control and accuracy, McIntosh is not for you. They simply lack the detail, speed and bottom end to be placed into this category. The McIntosh sound is also colored as they are voiced with an extra attenuation in the mid range.
Part of the purchase price of McIntosh is buying into a name rich with history, like Harley Davidson. The rest pays for some really great looking and solidly constructed components. If you are buying McIntosh and soley considering its sonic performance, than frankly, the stuff is overpriced and more audio rack jewlery than fine audio.

So Josh, if McIntosh is not that good, why all that stuff from McIntosh, and when is it for sale??? :W

[Josh]

So Josh, if McIntosh is not that good, why all that stuff from McIntosh, and when is it for sale??? :W

That is not quite what I said. I think it depends on what someone is looking for. I got a very good deal on my Mac gear, so I went with it. But lately, I have had time to demo a lot of other equipment which would not normally be available for me to listen to locally, and realized I probably should have done that in the first place.
I'll be selling most of the McIntosh stuff off pretty soon.

[jericho]

That is not quite what I said. I think it depends on what someone is looking for. I got a very good deal on my Mac gear, so I went with it. But lately, I have had time to demo a lot of other equipment which would not normally be available for me to listen to locally, and realized I probably should have done that in the first place.
I'll be selling most of the McIntosh stuff off pretty soon.

Keep me informed when you are selling!!!A few things I could use!

[RebelMan]

The I got my own Idea, you see I have got to make this work with all the begging I have done with the wife. I was on my last straw when I came across some PQ fans. They had a high flow rate and very low DB about 39. Hooked them up to the trigger switch on my Power conditoner so that when I turn the Pre on the amps and the fans come on. Problem solved.

Glenee, your tenatious attitude toward's McIntosh is very commendable. If I had to weather the same circumstances with Classe' I would find myself on another bandwagon. I am critically opinionated of active cooling systems in high-end equipment, they don't belong. To do so otherwise is a contradiction of the term.

You are a better man than I Glenee for sticking in there. :T

[Glenee]

Glenee, your tenatious attitude toward's McIntosh is very commendable. If I had to weather the same circumstances with Classe' I would find myself on another bandwagon. I am critically opinionated of active cooling systems in high-end equipment, they don't belong. To do so otherwise is a contradiction of the term.

You are a better man than I Glenee for sticking in there. :T

I developed this love for good audio equipment very young. I worked in the Oil and Gas exploration buisness since I was 16. Working on the rigs sleeping between 2 Cat 398 engines didn't do wonders for my hearing. I listen for a feel for the sound, not the most detail ( some of my octaves are Off) The feel of the MacIntosh was good to me. I had to find a way. In the Oilfields there is a saying: No such Word as can't We'll find a way some how ! I wish that I could hear the details you and a few people hear. But that is not the case. I still FEEL pretty good. This eternal search for that and not knowing what's just around the corner is just plain good STUFF. :T
Thank You Sir,
Glenee

[hd99yr]

just a point of interest in regards to the stereophile test of one hour at 1/3 power.

the Classé Omega Omicron monoblock Didn't do much better http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramp...se/index3.html


Neither did the CA-3200 http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramp...se/index3.html


That must be he harder test than it sounds and it would be interesting to see what would happen if and when they review the cam-400.

I have a mc-402 that I ran for 90 minutes at 100db with a Classe SSP-300 last weekend after reading this post and had no problem.