Bi-Amping 800 Series Speakers - Is it the Way to Go?

[moonlightdrive21]

Over the weekend, I visited a B&W dealer who also carried Macintosh and other high-end equipment. They had many things on display, including several of the 800 series B&W speakers.

I mentioned to the salesman that I have B&W 802D's and the HTM2D (center channel), which is being driven by a Classe 3200 power amp (200 watts X 3). I asked him if the B&W 800D is a very big step up from the 802D's. He said that they had both on display and the 800's were noticeably much better, with the major distinction being the bottom end. The woofer and the crossover on the 800D's are different than the 802D's.

But, the most interesting thing the guy said to me was that I would get the best improvement if I bi-amped rather than upgraded my 802D speakers to the 800D's. He showed me their 800D floor model, which had one Mac amp for the low end and another for the midrange and tweeter. The system did sound fantastic. He wasn't even a Classe dealer, and said my best bet would be to get another 3200 power amp and biamp my 802D speakers.

Would you mind fielding a few questions?:

1) Has anyone ever tried bi-amping with the Classe Delta series amps/preamps/processor?

2) I have a Classe SSP600 preamp/processor. Do I have two outputs that allow for bi-amping? If not, is it possible to create the bi-amping via the wires or is this a bad idea? Will I decrease sound quality or have other issues by using the wires to accomplish bi-amping?

3) What do you think of the idea of me getting another 3200 amp so I can bi-amp my 802D's and my HTM2D?

4) If you had the choice, would you buy another 3200 and bi-amp it or would you just upgrade speakers to the 800D and stick with one 32oo amp??

Thanks!
Dave

[WI Rotel]

Bi amping, rather than biwiring does make a significant difference. Despite, all the talk about theoretical intermodulation distortion and what not the main difference is power. Very simple, the more power you have the less distortion you will have at the same sound level, as long as your not overdriving the speaker. If you lump on twice the power each amp will work half as much that is all the "science" behind it. If you left the speaker inputs bridged and swapped your amp for one with twice the RMS the effect would be identical. So, yes, biamplification will yield very noticeable results. Better yet you can buy a less powerful amp for the higher transducers or a larger monster amp for the woofers since they are the ones that are sucking up the great majority of an amplifiers power any way. Although the quoted distortion levels on amps are at rated power levels, levels at one watt are logarithmically less, bottom line, you can never have too much juice.

[Relentless]

I wonder if bi-amping with powerful amps will sound better because the amps will run in "A" mode at a higher volume before switching to "B" as a single amp will have to use more power and switch sooner.

[WI Rotel]

I wonder if bi-amping with powerful amps will sound better because the amps will run in "A" mode at a higher volume before switching to "B" as a single amp will have to use more power and switch sooner.

Classe amps operate in a manner that mimics pure class A. According to their literature they have no switching distortion.

[rickc]

Your post is very timely to what I am considering with my Classe and B&W set up. I have the SSP 600, CDP 300 and CA-5200 amp. I also have the 802D's and HTM2D along with SCMS's and a ASW825 sub.

I have been very, very pleased with my system and I have been thinking about adding the cam 400's to beef up the two channel sound through the 802s. Don't get me wrong they sound great in this current system, but I feel that adding more power will only increase the enjoyment that I get from these outstanding speakers.

This is what I have decided to do. I am going to just add a Classe CA-2200 for the surrounds and Bi-amp the 802's with the 4 amps from the 5200, saving the last one for the center channel. I will have to buy new audioquest speaker cables and a XLR splitter to split the signial from the SSP600.

Has anyone done this with their Classe 5200?


I would like to hear from you if you have? Can you recommend an XLR splitter? I believe that I will just go to a guitar store and buy the splitters? Can anyone recommend a splitter or brand? Will the fact that I am using a splitter effect the performance / sound?


Once I get this completed in the next few weeks I will get back to you all with the results?

[NonSense]

rickc

You may also want to try driving the LF side of the 802's with the CA-2200. Leaving the CA-5200 for the HF side of the 802's and the surrounds. That way when you are doing your 2-CH listening, you will have 2 massive transformers to draw power from instead of one. That's the whole point, is it not?

This should be easy to try if you have already run all the cabling to the CA-5200.

[moonlightdrive21]

Your post is very timely to what I am considering with my Classe and B&W set up. I have the SSP 600, CDP 300 and CA-5200 amp. I also have the 802D's and HTM2D along with SCMS's and a ASW825 sub.

I have been very, very pleased with my system and I have been thinking about adding the cam 400's to beef up the two channel sound through the 802s. Don't get me wrong they sound great in this current system, but I feel that adding more power will only increase the enjoyment that I get from these outstanding speakers.

This is what I have decided to do. I am going to just add a Classe CA-2200 for the surrounds and Bi-amp the 802's with the 4 amps from the 5200, saving the last one for the center channel. I will have to buy new audioquest speaker cables and a XLR splitter to split the signial from the SSP600.

Has anyone done this with their Classe 5200?


I would like to hear from you if you have? Can you recommend an XLR splitter? I believe that I will just go to a guitar store and buy the splitters? Can anyone recommend a splitter or brand? Will the fact that I am using a splitter effect the performance / sound?


Once I get this completed in the next few weeks I will get back to you all with the results?

Very interesting - thanks for the info. I look forward to reading how others answer your questions.

So, if I understand you correctly, in your new setup you would still only be doing 200 watts for your center channel. Why? Personally, I watch and listen to lots of DVD music concerts using my 5.1 setup, so would not want to beef up the power going to the two mains without doing the same for the center.

Thanks also to everyone else who responded to my post.

Dave

[Aldo]

Very interesting - thanks for the info. I look forward to reading how others answer your questions.

So, if I understand you correctly, in your new setup you would still only be doing 200 watts for your center channel. Why? Personally, I watch and listen to lots of DVD music concerts using my 5.1 setup, so would not want to beef up the power going to the two mains without doing the same for the center.

Thanks also to everyone else who responded to my post.

Dave

Specially when 90% of the voice will be on the center!

[WI Rotel]

Although I'm not using classe or biamplifying, my setup is as follows, I use a rotel 1080 (200wx2) for the mains and a rotel 1095 (200wx5) for the center and the 4 surround speakers. Isolating the mains with their own amp has had a noticeable (if very small) positive effect on the XT4 mains, the bass is noticeably more defined and "clean". `

[rickc]

Very interesting - thanks for the info. I look forward to reading how others answer your questions.

So, if I understand you correctly, in your new setup you would still only be doing 200 watts for your center channel. Why? Personally, I watch and listen to lots of DVD music concerts using my 5.1 setup, so would not want to beef up the power going to the two mains without doing the same for the center.

Thanks also to everyone else who responded to my post.

Dave

I agree that in a ideal set up for HT you would have the same power across the LCR. I have that today with this system. The Classe CA- 5200 @5x200 is awesome. The Classe and B&W set up is outstanding for HT and two channel. I have not heard a better sounding system for HT. My point is that for two channel listening I believe adding more power to the 802's is a great investment. They can handle the extra power versus the HTM2D which can only handle 150 watts per channel versus 500 for the 802. If I had the larger B&W HTM1D center speaker I would upgrade the power for that as well.

Thats the beauty of this hobby... trying to get the most out of the investments that we have all ready made!

If you have not heard the Classe / B&W set up then you need to find a local dealer! You will be blown away with the following

Sound, ease of use, detail, reliability. Hopefully you recognize that I am a very happy camper with my set up!

[Glen B]

Can you recommend an XLR splitter? I believe that I will just go to a guitar store and buy the splitters? Can anyone recommend a splitter or brand? Will the fact that I am using a splitter effect the performance / sound?

The XLR and RCA outputs of Classé preamps are usually both active at the same time. You can feed the amp driving the more critical highs/mids from the balanced outputs of the SSP-600 and the amp on the bottoms from the single-ended outputs. IMHO, I don't believe you will be able to hear an audible difference on the lows with the SE outputs. The only downside (if your IC runs are extra long) may be some hum pickup. I would try running the low end single-ended first.

[Relentless]

The XLR and RCA outputs of Classé preamps are usually both active at the same time. You can feed the amp driving the more critical highs/mids from the balanced outputs of the SSP-600 and the amp on the bottoms from the single-ended outputs. IMHO, I don't believe you will be able to hear an audible difference on the lows with the SE outputs. The only downside (if your IC runs are extra long) may be some hum pickup. I would try running the low end single-ended first.

isn't there a few DB difference between the two types of outputs? wouldn't that difference cause the speaker to sound uneven from top to bottom?

[Glenee]

Rick, I have been using Mogami Gold's for mine as good as anything else. Try their XLR's. Not the cheapest but I think Guitar Center carries them.
Glenee

[Glen B]

isn't there a few DB difference between the two types of outputs? wouldn't that difference cause the speaker to sound uneven from top to bottom?

Good point, although Classé amps have always seemed to have equal gain from both balanced and SE inputs. Maybe the OP could have Doug make up a set of custom XLR Y-connectors.

[beden1]

Good point, although Classé amps have always seemed to have equal gain from both balanced and SE inputs. Maybe the OP could have Doug make up a set of custom XLR Y-connectors.

This is a direct quote from Classe regarding the balanced and RCA/single ended connections: Balanced connections have 6dB higher output than single ended connections. Driving the highs via balanced and the bass via single ended will therefore result in the highs sounding proportionally louder than the lows.

This was in answer to my question about connecting my CP-500 as a pass through between my surround processor and the CAV-150 amp that I am using to bi-amp my front L/C/R speakers.

Since the CP-500 only has one set of balanced connections, Classe recommended that I use the RCA/single connection, and to continue to use my bi-amp setup. They said that the bi-amp setup is their preferred method for driving my L/C/R speakers with the CAV-150.

[RebelMan]

This is a direct quote from Classe regarding the balanced and RCA/single ended connections: Balanced connections have 6dB higher output than single ended connections. Driving the highs via balanced and the bass via single ended will therefore result in the highs sounding proportionally louder than the lows.

Amplifier gain is the same for both types of connections. The 6dB delta relates to the increase in signal to noise ratio of the balanced versus single-ended outputs of the pre-amplifier. In other words, XLR connections have the potential of a lower noise floor than RCA connections, thus providing a cleaner sound, because XLR voltages are doubled while the noise remains somewhat constant.

[style]

set solution

Hi moonlightdrive21,

In place as 2 ca3200 and bi-ampli for front with 800D and htm2d
Ifind interesting to buy 2 monoblock ca-m400 for the 800D mains and
a 5200 for center plus rear.
Good solution for stereo 2 channel and good too for homecinema.

Or??

Greetings from Switzerland
Omar

[rickc]

I agree that in a ideal set up for HT you would have the same power across the LCR. I have that today with this system. The Classe CA- 5200 @5x200 is awesome. The Classe and B&W set up is outstanding for HT and two channel. I have not heard a better sounding system for HT. My point is that for two channel listening I believe adding more power to the 802's is a great investment. They can handle the extra power versus the HTM2D which can only handle 150 watts per channel versus 500 for the 802. If I had the larger B&W HTM1D center speaker I would upgrade the power for that as well.

Thats the beauty of this hobby... trying to get the most out of the investments that we have all ready made!

If you have not heard the Classe / B&W set up then you need to find a local dealer! You will be blown away with the following

Sound, ease of use, detail, reliability. Hopefully you recognize that I am a very happy camper with my set up!

Okay guys,

I went to my local high end shop today to discuss Bi-amping the Classe 5200 with a Classe CA-2200 and he said that he would not recomend it! They also sell Classe (not the orignal shop that I bought my current system from) The reason was that splitting the signal between the preamp and the amp and splitting it over multiple amps would be like taking a step backwards? Short gain in power but a step backwards in the quality of the signal with the XLR connections? I understand his point because I have always understood that if you split things there will be some type of loss in the signal.


Maybe he just saved me $7K

He suggested that I just upgrade the power cables and interconects until I fork over the real money for two Classe CA- 400 monoblocks down the road?

Let me know your thoughts?

Thanks

[beden1]

Okay guys,

I understand his point because I have always understood that if you split things there will be some type of loss in the signal.

I'm not sure that I agree that there is any audible signal loss caused when using a quality splitter. Does anyone have any facts on the subject?

Maybe he just saved me $7K

He suggested that I just upgrade the power cables and interconects until I fork over the real money for two Classe CA- 400 monoblocks down the road?

Upgraded power cables may be a total waste of your money. You may want to ask others, and/or read posts.

Let me know your thoughts?

Thanks

Just my two cents!

[moonlightdrive21]

Just my two cents!

I guess there are different viewpoints on the effects of using a Y connector to split. I would be interested to hear what our "techy" forum members think (Kal? Rebelman?).

I spoke with a knowledgable Classe guy who indicated the following: "...I can assure you that the performance will certainly not be diminished by bi-amping from your SSP with Y cables..."

[hifiguymi]

The problem with using a Y adapter, beyond adding connections, is you change the output impedance of the preamp. When you do that you change the frequency response and the amp's ability to reject noise.

Eric

[rickc]

The problem with using a Y adapter, beyond adding connections, is you change the output impedance of the preamp. When you do that you change the frequency response and the amp's ability to reject noise.

Eric

I spoke with Classe today and they said that I should not have any issues as long as the splitter is a high end product etc. From like Audio quest or Transparent etc? My dealer said that it will work fine as well? The dealer is recommending the mono blocks not for power but for sound stage etc

[beden1]

I spoke with Classe today and they said that I should not have any issues as long as the splitter is a high end product etc. From like Audio quest or Transparent etc? My dealer said that it will work fine as well? The dealer is recommending the mono blocks not for power but for sound stage etc

I called Classe today as well to verify what I thought was true, as we had discussed the issue of using Y connector(s) for bi-amping before. They called me back after speaking with their design engineers, and said it would pose no problem to bi-amp between my CP-500 preamp and my CAV-150 amp. They had previously told me that the CAV-150 was designed for the flexibility of bi-amping and/or bridging in mind.