Use of Power Conditioners/Surge Protectors & Other Power Related Questions

[moonlightdrive21]

Hey guys:

Would you mind providing opinions/advice related to power configurations in a stereo setup that includes a hell of a lot of expensive Classe equipment?

My system will be as follows (shipping to me soon):

Classe 3200
Classe SSP600
Classe CDP-102
Classe CAV150 (75 watts x 6) (old amp I already have)
JL Fathom F113 powered sub
Pioneer 61 inch Plasma TV
Directv HD Receiver
VCR
Playstation 3

I have an 11 year old Panamax 500 DBS surge protector/conditioner (handles 2000 watts).

A few questions:

1) Do you use or believe in using conditioners/surge protectors for *all* of your electronics including your power amps? Many say that you should plug amps right into the wall and not use a conditioner/surge protector in order to get the best sound performance.

2) Is it O.K. to add an extension cord to the surge protector/conditioner or to a power amp without impacting audible performance?

3) If you are somewhat familiar with the Panamx product I mentioned, do you think it would be adequate for my setup?

4) My system will be plugged into dedicated outlets that go right to the electrical box in my garage (i.e., no other electrical lines in the listening room or house connect to it). I have 2 outlets in the stereo room, each one is 20 amps. My intention is to plug my two "power" amps into one socket and the rest of my gear in the other one (e.g., JL Fathom powered sub, SSP600, CDP-102, Plasma TV, Playstation 3, Directv receiver, VCR). Does this make sense or is there a better approach?

5) Would it be a real bad idea to add a Halogen floor standing lamp with a dimmer in this room even if the lamp will be connected to a different outlet that is not physically connected to the two dedicated power lines in the room that will be used for my stereo system?

Thanks very much!!
Dave

[Tommy]

Richard Gray's Power Company makes one of the best power conditioner/surge protector in the business.
"RGPC is wired in parallel to the A.C. line, between the A.C. outlets and the components, so it cannot limit current because it adds no resistance to the line."
Try looking into its FAQ section, very useful.

[sikoniko]

I really want the apc s-15 because it doubles as a battery back-up. I am currently using a panamax 5200. It was cheap. I can't say that it makes any difference, and is mainly a glorified powerstrip. everything in my rack is plugged into it, including the 2 ch. amp for my surround speakers. my main amp sits at the front of the room plugged directly into the room.

im not sure if i buy that you need a $3k power conditioner... as public enemy says "don't believe the hype!". One of my dealers swears by the shunyata though. i don't feel compelled to find out.

[moonlightdrive21]

Thanks guys!

[photoman]

A decent surge protector is wise investment considering power in NJ isn't the greatest (just last week we had a major power sag here). So here's what I'm doing. I already own a decent surge protector that my stack of electronics is connected to. I'm going to spring for a Rotel RLC 1040 and buy a good sized >1500VA battery from APC and shove that behind the rack. I'll plug the 1040 into that. THat will give some decent protection from the horrible electric at my place. As for the AMP, right into the wall - but I'll find a decent surge protector for that was well - maybe another 1040 will do

[moonlightdrive21]

A decent surge protector is wise investment considering power in NJ isn't the greatest (just last week we had a major power sag here). So here's what I'm doing. I already own a decent surge protector that my stack of electronics is connected to. I'm going to spring for a Rotel RLC 1040 and buy a good sized >1500VA battery from APC and shove that behind the rack. I'll plug the 1040 into that. THat will give some decent protection from the horrible electric at my place. As for the AMP, right into the wall - but I'll find a decent surge protector for that was well - maybe another 1040 will do

Clever!!! Will have to consider that setup for myself.

Thanks for the advice!!

[ChrisssB]

A decent surge protector is in my thoughts 2......but one has to be very carefull about it.
I have a good power strip that also does some noise filtering and provides protection from surges. Well I dont use it any more cause I found out that it killed lots of frequencies. Ever since I plugged my amp into the wall, harmonics bloomed sound got fuller and more natural. The difference was so great I couldnt believe my ears! h:
I talked to a reviewer in local audio magazine, who's really an extreme (and thats an understatement) audiophile and he told me I should only buy a powerstrip that does nothing else than providing outlets of absolute quality and has lots of current capability.
I dont know....I'm puzzled cause its a bit scary not to have any potection for your gear. Maybe we should put some ptotection cirquit right on the electrical box ... I'm really puzzled

[ChrisssB]

Anyone has any experience with any off these? (amp - pre everything plugged in) and if they alter the sound in anyway?

shunyata

furutech

[photoman]

well i got my rotel rlc-1040 very pleased with it. so far so good; i didn't detect any improvement in sound yet; but then again i really haven't sat down and listened. i'm glad i got it though. now for a big battery.

[Kal Rubinson]

1) Do you use or believe in using conditioners/surge protectors for *all* of your electronics including your power amps? Many say that you should plug amps right into the wall and not use a conditioner/surge protector in order to get the best sound performance.

Yes and no. I use an AC filter on the BelCanto digital amps in NYC but not on the Classe or Levinson. I cannot give you any logical or technical reason for the latter.

2) Is it O.K. to add an extension cord to the surge protector/conditioner or to a power amp without impacting audible performance?

I would avoid it but, if the extension cord is hefty enough, it should work. Generally, I just use a long enough AC cord for the job.

3) If you are somewhat familiar with the Panamx product I mentioned, do you think it would be adequate for my setup?

Dunno.

4) My system will be plugged into dedicated outlets that go right to the electrical box in my garage (i.e., no other electrical lines in the listening room or house connect to it). I have 2 outlets in the stereo room, each one is 20 amps. My intention is to plug my two "power" amps into one socket and the rest of my gear in the other one (e.g., JL Fathom powered sub, SSP600, CDP-102, Plasma TV, Playstation 3, Directv receiver, VCR). Does this make sense or is there a better approach?

Sounds fine. Your best solution to the surge protection issue, btw, is to put it at the electrical box. The effectiveness of any such device depends on being closer to ground than any other current route through, say, your power amp.

5) Would it be a real bad idea to add a Halogen floor standing lamp with a dimmer in this room even if the lamp will be connected to a different outlet that is not physically connected to the two dedicated power lines in the room that will be used for my stereo system?

It depends on the dimmer design. There are noisy ones and quiet ones. We ended up tossing the halogen and getting a fluourescent torchiere. It's cooler and quieter.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

Thanks Kal !

[ChrisssB]

Thanks Kal! :-)

[grit]

I gotta chime in here, and I hope I'm not violating policy. I'm demoing Transparent's Power Isolator 4, which is their 4 outlet (2 banks, 2 outlets each = 4). They have several power products, but they all provide surge protection while acting in parallel (like Richard Grey's equipment).

Now, here's the thing. I *DO* hear an OBVIOUS difference.

I honestly thought better cables was a crap argument, until I tried better cables, both interconnects and speaker cables. I really thought better power was B.S. though. It HAD to be, right?

Well, I guess not. There is a DISTINCTLY wider sound stange and MORE detail in EVERY song I listen to. Each instrument and vocalist sounds more distinct, like each is a separate entity rather than mashed together. I didn't KNOW they sounded mashed together until I heard them separated. Wow! When I unplug the PowerIsolator 4, ALL of the music seems "flat".

No, I don't work for anyone in the audio/video industry, and I don't care who's product, if any, you buy. But, I really think you should try ONE of the product out that people rave about and see how it works for you before you dismiss it. You might be surprised. I certainly am!

Oh, my equipment -

Krell 400xi integrated
Krell DVD showcase
Aerial 7b speakers x2
cables... sorry, dont think we're suppose to say brands, but they're not "generic".

[Glen B]

Whole house surge protection is probably best. FWIW, the Classé legacy components including the 01 series, all have some surge protection in the form of a varistor across hot and neutral after the line fuse. Since I haven't seen any Delta service manuals, I can't comment on whether this trend is continued in those models.

[Nolan B]

Thread resurrection :demon:


I read through this thread and couldnt find a general consensus or results from people who posted saying they were getting the RLC 1040 and what their thoughts were plugging their amp into it.


I have a 1040 and for proximity and voltage regulation ( it goes up an tone a ton at my place) i want to plug my new 5100 into the high current input on the RLC 1040. I am not looking for any sound improvements I was just curious if anyone tried it pugging their amp into a high current outlet on the 1040 or similar device and found a negative effect.

[Alpha231]

+1 for Richard Gray. I don't recommend using surge especially the MOV based surge protectors that feel it's better to limit current than to take a surge. As someone has already recommended RGPC they not only protect surge in a parallel configuration, they condition the entire circuit that the "parallel" product is plugged into, and they provide a "little" extra current when needed using 600 watt choke in the RGPC 400, 600, and dual 600 watt choke in the RGPC 1200. They also offer "isolation" product like the Pole Pig and Substation. I have my Classe products plugged into RGPC power product... :T

[style]

In europa 230v and USA 120v. are 2 different "world" and stability "output"...
this is sure ...


A dealer is responsible has knowledge that is not good to link a power-amp to a power supply with filters inside ...

if you do not want to lose the momentum of the amplifier must connect it directly to electricity without anything in half between the amplifier and power supply.
there may be cases that ups does not cause any loss of dynamic, confident that these devices do not bring any improvement this sound safe but connect an amplifier to poower ups is not 100%....

you can go with dvd,cd,plasma,...anolog or digital with a some like Ps audio or some like that but the power ampli muss be attaced direct to the eletricity..


Omar

[sikoniko]

I bought the APC S-15. It actually came in last week. I believe they also make the rotel model you have, but the S-15 has a battery. I currently plug my 1085 into the APC, and I plan on plugging a 5100 into it when I do finally make the jump. My 3200 is plugged into a different dedicated outlet. It is also on the other side of the room from my rack.

I am curious if anyone thinks a battery backup would cause problems for the 3200. Currently, I have it plugged into a brickwall for surge. Being in florida, we are prone to some interesting weather, and I'd rather have the opportunity to safely shut stuff down, given the choice. I bought a seperate batter backup for my projector. If anything needs a battery, it is a projector.

[merlinus]

Whilst it is possible that my CA-5100 might sound a tad better by being plugged directly into the AC, using an APC surge protector cum power conditioner and $35K of insurance helps me to rest easy.

The frequent thunder-and-lightning storms here, with mind-blowingly spectacular light shows, can easily wreak havoc with expensive equipment.

[beden1]

I bought the APC S-15. It actually came in last week. I believe they also make the rotel model you have, but the S-15 has a battery. I currently plug my 1085 into the APC, and I plan on plugging a 5100 into it when I do finally make the jump. My 3200 is plugged into a different dedicated outlet. It is also on the other side of the room from my rack.

I am curious if anyone thinks a battery backup would cause problems for the 3200. Currently, I have it plugged into a brickwall for surge. Being in florida, we are prone to some interesting weather, and I'd rather have the opportunity to safely shut stuff down, given the choice. I bought a seperate batter backup for my projector. If anything needs a battery, it is a projector.

What is a brickwall? I had my amps plugged into a Furman power conditioner, but I feel they sound much clearer plugged directly into the 20 amp wall sockets. I'm worried that the Florida weather could zap my amps as well, so I'm interested in alternatives.

[sikoniko]

What is a brickwall? I had my amps plugged into a Furman power conditioner, but I feel they sound much clearer plugged directly into the 20 amp wall sockets. I'm worried that the Florida weather could zap my amps as well, so I'm interested in alternatives.

http://www.brickwall.com/

Scroll down 1/4th the page on this link for more info:

http://www.sellcom.com/brickwall.html

[Glen B]

Brickwall is a manufacturer of surge protectors. Their products employ a choke in series with the load FWIW.

http://www.brickwall.com/

[beden1]

http://www.brickwall.com/

Scroll down 1/4th the page on this link for more info:
http://www.sellcom.com/brickwall.html

It looks like this brickwall technology would still limit the current flow to the amps?

[beden1]

Brickwall is a manufacturer of surge protectors. Their products employ a choke in series with the load FWIW.

http://www.brickwall.com/

Thanks Glen. I have a Richard Gray 600 that I use for all equipment other than the amps. I got sold on it a few years ago as it was expensive.

I had an electrician install two 20 amp lines to the back of the equipment rack. Each circuit has two outlets, that I use for my amps. I feel this did help the amps breath. But, I'm trying to figure out how to protect them, without limiting the current flow?

[beden1]

+1 for Richard Gray. I don't recommend using surge especially the MOV based surge protectors that feel it's better to limit current than to take a surge. As someone has already recommended RGPC they not only protect surge in a parallel configuration, they condition the entire circuit that the "parallel" product is plugged into, and they provide a "little" extra current when needed using 600 watt choke in the RGPC 400, 600, and dual 600 watt choke in the RGPC 1200. They also offer "isolation" product like the Pole Pig and Substation. I have my Classe products plugged into RGPC power product... :T

I guess I'm confused by the Richard Gray technology. I also have an RGPC 600, and was just reading the manual again. They say to not plug your amps into it, but instead, to use a sub station, or plug directly into a wall outlet that is being protected by having the RGPC 600 plugged into the same circuit.

My situation is that I have two separate 20 amp circuits with two outlets per circuit. I also need to plug in 4 amps. If I plugged the RGPC 600 into one of the outlets, could I use a quality 20 amp rated extension cord with four inputs to use for the amps? This would seem to be too much current draw on the one circuit?

[beden1]

Don't amps like Classe store some reserved energy for situations like brown outs, etc.

[style]

@beden1,
Electricity in Europe on paper is "better" vs. USA...more stabile,....

When I bought my Class B & W told me not to connect to any type of UPS, filter or other protection ...
These devices must use them only for the digital & analog ... (cd player, dvd, plasma,
tuner ,....) BUT not for amplifiers
OK, is I have a security "gera" for a $$$ system i sleep sure better...

I do not know Richard Gray, only the name but I do not know its functions ..

UPS, Richard Gray, PS Audio,... dont bring better sound but security,
but a power ampli connect at one of this unit CAN have for a resultat a dinamic loss... not sure but most likely!!
In europa with 230v. = 2300watt, 16Ampere is what you get with a standard wall outlet.
I live in a house with an old electrical system and then wanted to buy a PS Audio, Pure Power, or the like but all retailers when I told him why I wanted to buy me said ok, but the amp is better to the wall!!

= i'm confused like you. I will a protection for my "gears" but the right solution
where is???
greeting Omar

[Nolan B]

For those interested I asked a related question to Classe about plugging my 5100 into the high current outlet. The reason I want to do so is for 3 reasons only.

1.) convenience/hiding a power cable
2.) the RLC 1040 tells me how much power is being used on the outlet and I am curious to know what my whole system uses and currently my amp is not plugged in.
3.) grounding/surge protection

I am going to plug my amp in next week when a triggered AC switched outlet arrives.

"while we do recognize that the quality of the power supply does have the capacity to influence the performance of your CA-5100, I cannot comment on the performance of the RLC-1040 with your amp.

However, I have checked with Rotel and they are confident that the RLC-1040 does represent a viable solution for you. The product was tested on the RB-1090 (2 x 380w) and the RMB-1095 (5 x 200w)."

[sikoniko]

For those interested I asked a related question to Classe about plugging my 5100 into the high current outlet. The reason I want to do so is for 3 reasons only.

1.) convenience/hiding a power cable
2.) the RLC 1040 tells me how much power is being used on the outlet and I am curious to know what my whole system uses and currently my amp is not plugged in.
3.) grounding/surge protection

I am going to plug my amp in next week when a triggered AC switched outlet arrives.

"while we do recognize that the quality of the power supply does have the capacity to influence the performance of your CA-5100, I cannot comment on the performance of the RLC-1040 with your amp.

However, I have checked with Rotel and they are confident that the RLC-1040 does represent a viable solution for you. The product was tested on the RB-1090 (2 x 380w) and the RMB-1095 (5 x 200w)."

I have my CA-5100 plugged into my APC-S15, which is the battery backup version of the one you have and it works fine.

[wettou]

I plug it all into the wall and it works great the amps have a dedicated 20 amp wall sockets.

[Glen B]

Don't amps like Classe store some reserved energy for situations like brown outs, etc.

No. The main power supply caps store energy, but they do so in order to smooth out the current from the rectifier bridge, and more importantly to maintain the value of the supply voltage to the output stage under heavy load. When there is significant current draw by the output stage, such as during loud music passages, the increase can cause the power supply voltage to sag. Other than that, there is no UPS-like technology in Classé or any other brand.

[wettou]

So should we use power conditioners for amps??

[Glen B]

IMO. if you have problems with your AC supply, a conditioner may be helpful. If the AC supply is good, a conditioner may serve no useful purpose.

[Nolan B]

IMO. if you have problems with your AC supply, a conditioner may be helpful. If the AC supply is good, a conditioner may serve no useful purpose.

as a conditioner no, but as surge protection and grounding I think it does. I also see value in having a AC unit which displays AC related info.

[Glen B]

AC displays are probably useful to those who either don't own or know how to use a DMM. My household voltage has been a nominal 121.0V ± 2V for many years. An AC display is not going to tell me more than what I already know. I keep the display of my Belkin PF60 at its dimmest setting 24/7.

[wettou]

Shunyata Hydra 8 Receives Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound! $2495

[style]

Hi,
In Europa we have a differnte "world" with the with electricity.

Sound better, recommended Classé directly (not in magazines, but recommended by people with experience / they work in B&W group)
the power amplifier to the wall / DIRECT outlet... .No brakes, no loss of momentum/dynamic. Sound pure Classé.

and problems with weather, storms, overloaded ,...??? Ok, i agree but

with RG, PS.Audio,Shunyata, ???? if a lightning you fall right on the house you doot save anything....

I can say I'm pro for a power-bar like Fisch (Germany) , Kemp (Netherland),
and a good power cord for the sources.. nothing more.

With a power bar with analogic I for DVD-CD, plasma, pre-pro, DIRECT=nothing for the pwer ampli, analog for phono.
so sound is very GREAT....
Weel, in Europa with a Classe system in garantie and you have a storms THIS BIG BRAND make so: ALL UNDER GARANTIE!! no one cent.

I had a technician from Classe for a half day no cents to pay...and normaly the Classe technician dont go to at home the privat consumer...


This is another point the Classe.
Sorry OT but with a Denon,Anthem,..you canait a paar month... , I can send mail, letters,.. bey, bey baby.....

Style

[Nolan B]

Shunyata Hydra 8 Receives Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound! $2495

why did you post this?

[Glen B]

On the topic of the Shunyata Hydra, see what's inside a Hydra 4 for the $695 asking price: 8O

http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm

[Nolan B]

On the topic of the Shunyata Hydra, see what's inside a Hydra 4 for the $695 asking price: 8O

http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm

Wow...what a scam.

Here is a look at a the insides of the much less expensive APC unit.

In contrast to the Shunyata check out the insides of the APC H15 at over 16 lbs.




I have the rotel version of this and really only bought it for conveniences, surge protection, grounding and interest in viewing power related info of my system. One thing i didnt realize is how often my voltage fluctuates. Its seems to happen at certain times of day mostly in the evening. I guess this is when everyone gets home in my area and uses power? Anyway if close tot he unit I can hear it boost and trim the signal sometimes as high as 10 times in a single hour.

It made makes me wonder what effect can extreme voltage fluctuation cause? I have the APC set to "normal" which means it boosts/trims the voltage 120 +/- 10% (97-139 Volts). Obviously without the APC the single would often go above and below that fairly often.

According to my CA 5100 manual the "unit requires the AC mains to be between approximately 95V–135V in order to turn on."

I suppose this means its possible for the 5100 to not turn on should I try to turn it on during one of the voltage fluctuations. Obviously my voltage is fluctuating out of the desired range. Mind you I suppose the worst case is that it only fluctuates for a second or two.

Still interesting.

Also the manual indicates if the voltage sags by 15% or more, the amplifier will continue to play but it may not be able to achieve its usual standard of performance under these compromised conditions. I wonder how noticeable this can get? I haven't noticed it yet.

[Alaric]

On the topic of the Shunyata Hydra, see what's inside a Hydra 4 for the $695 asking price: 8O

http://www.10audio.com/diy_power_conditioner.htm

8O 8O

[AV-OCD]

I've never been one to put much merit into power conditioning, but I need rack-type "power strip" and with a system the caliber I have now, I figured better safe than sorry. Based on my research, many of the passive devices have received mixed reviews and one of the frequent complaints is a loss in dynamics. Then I came across the PS Audio stuff, which appealed to the technophile in me. Instead of passively filtering the AC line, it recreates the AC. I bought the PS Audio Power Plant Premier about 6 months ago and I have no complaints. I have tried other power conditioners and never noticed much of a difference, but I *think* the PS Audio piece does remove a layer of haze that I didn't realize was there before. It's subtle, and it could be all in my mind, but at the very least it seem to be doing any damage.

One of these days I'll have to compare the sound with it out of the system again, but that's a bit of a pain.

I'm not promoting the product, but if you are interested in it, PS Audio had created an informative sales video that you can view here.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl74240.swf&video_id=iL1Wjeq7eHY&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/power-plant-premier%3Fcat%3Dpower&iurl=http%3A//i2.ytimg.com/vi/iL1Wjeq7eHY/hqdefault.jpg&sk=YhpPhYye5ogFo3dd-tsUr_BcU5lzLd4cC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=en&title=PS%20Audio%20Power%20Plant%20Premier&avg_rating=4.75&length_seconds=590

[planitismetal]

I've never been one to put much merit into power conditioning, but I need rack-type "power strip" and with a system the caliber I have now, I figured better safe than sorry. Based on my research, many of the passive devices have received mixed reviews and one of the frequent complaints is a loss in dynamics. Then I came across the PS Audio stuff, which appealed to the technophile in me. Instead of passively filtering the AC line, it recreates the AC. I bought the PS Audio Power Plant Premier about 6 months ago and I have no complaints. I have tried other power conditioners and never noticed much of a difference, but I *think* the PS Audio piece does remove a layer of haze that I didn't realize was there before. It's subtle, and it could be all in my mind, but at the very least it seem to be doing any damage.

One of these days I'll have to compare the sound with it out of the system again, but that's a bit of a pain.

I'm not promoting the product, but if you are interested in it, PS Audio had created an informative sales video that you can view here.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf...th_seconds=590

I got a PSaudio Power Plant Premier, and as my B&W-CLASSE dealer said to me, it is now the best solution in market... I am powering all my components to PPP and the only thing I'm sure is that when AC power gives 207Volt (yes it is true style) my equipments have 229-230V...It is a regenerator of electricity! I don't know about USA, but here in Europe this is a huge difference!!!

[wettou]

I got a PSaudio Power Plant Premier, and as my B&W-CLASSE dealer said to me, it is now the best solution in market... I am powering all my components to PPP and the only thing I'm sure is that when AC power gives 207Volt (yes it is true style) my equipments have 229-230V...It is a regenerator of electricity! I don't know about USA, but here in Europe this is a huge difference!!!

How about this

By the way the margins on these things are 100% if you subscribe to CEPro, or www.residentialsystems.com you will find out where dealer make a lot of their money: 1. Cables, 2. Power conditioners, power plants and the likes the rest is 40 points to 50 points on average

Panamax’s MB850 Compact UPS Battery Back-Up

[planitismetal]

How about this

By the way the margins on these things are 100% if you subscribe to CEPro, or www.residentialsystems.com you will find out where dealer make a lot of their money: 1. Cables, 2. Power conditioners, power plants and the likes the rest is 40 points to 50 points on average

Panamax’s MB850 Compact UPS Battery Back-Up

I think these are two different things... UPS with battery backup can help only when the power is interrupted...Gives time to turn off your equipments... Regenerator doesn't use battery, but makes more stable the Volts of the electricity... (sorry for my english)...And I don't think that UPS can afford 2x200W plus 3x100w plus CDplayer, plus pre/pro, plus BDplayer, plus LCD, plus Sub for more than a minute...