choosing between 705's and CDM9NT's

[monster8p]

I have an Onkyo TXDS-696 surround receiver, 100w.
I'm considering purchasing either used 705's and an ASW675 subwoofer,
or used CDM9NT's.

Will the CDM9NT's be too hard to push with my Onkyo receiver? I've heard that the larger speakers can overpower lesser quality receivers like mine.

I was thinking that maybe the 705's would be better since the receiver wouldn't have to work as hard on the bass because I'd also purchase
the ASW-675 to take care of the low frequencies.

I listen to music and home theater about equally, though music is
probably most important to me. And I listen to all types of music.

Thanks for your ears,
Danny

[Blindamood]

I would advise against using the CDM 9NTs with your receiver. I have the CDM 9NTs and was initially using them in a 5.1 setup, driven by a 110W Pioneer Elite receiver. I had several occasions when the amp would just shut down during loud explosions, etc. in movies. The 9NT has a minimum impedance of around 3 ohms, which is quite difficult to drive without more power. When I added an external 5-channel amp (175W x 5) the problem went away.

[Kevin D]

Also, I find the CDM9's lacking a bit in the bass department (though I still love mine). You would probably need to factor in a sub with them as well.

Kevin D.

[monster8p]

hmmmm

hmmm...
Maybe I'm better off with a good sub and something like the 603's.

Danny

[Blindamood]

Also, I find the CDM9's lacking a bit in the bass department (though I still love mine). You would probably need to factor in a sub with them as well.

In my two-channel setup, which is where my 9NTs now reside, I absolutely love them. I'm driving them with a B&K 125.2 amp, and I think the bass is more than adequate for music.

[bigburner]

Danny, buy the CDM9NTs and the ASW675. Configure your Onkyo so that only frequencies 80 Hz and above go to the CDM9NTs. That will take a substantial load off the Onkyo. Set the low-pass filter on the ASW675 to 80 Hz so that the sub only plays 80Hz and below. You are now ready to rock.

Nigel.

[wgriel]

In my two-channel setup, which is where my 9NTs now reside, I absolutely love them. I'm driving them with a B&K 125.2 amp, and I think the bass is more than adequate for music.

I don't have 9NTs, but have 703s and I'd assume the bass is fairly close. I agree that for 2 channel music I'm completely satisfied with the bass. However, in a home theater a sub would be an important addition imo.

Bill

[Miroku]

Go for the 9NTs. They're a wonderful speaker! :T
I waited quite a while before adding a subwoofer to mine (was living in an apartment) and most of my guests for movie nights had no idea I was missing a sub, even when the 9NTs were powered by a 110w/channel Marantz receiver.

As Blindamood said, there was a time or two when a certain movie explosion would cause the protective circuitry in the receiver to flip and shut itself down, but that only happened to me one or two times in several years or watching fairly loud movies.

Regardless of what speaker you get you'll probably get upgradeitis at some point and buy a real power amp, so then you'll be extra happy you got the 9Nts. all you really need for them is a Rotel 1080 or something similar for $1000 (new) or less. :P

[beden1]

In my two-channel setup, which is where my 9NTs now reside, I absolutely love them. I'm driving them with a B&K 125.2 amp, and I think the bass is more than adequate for music.

Until you listen to music with a quality sub/subs setup, you don't know what you're missing. I've come to the realization that subs are needed as much for music as they are for HT.

I was reminded of that tonight while listening to a 2004 music DVD of Procal Harem live in concert. Without a sub, you would miss out on much of the lower base tones from the organ (it sounded like a pipe organ). I kept rewinding certain sections listening with my twin 15" subs on and off (and this with my main speakers that have twin 10" base woofers in each cabinet). The difference was amazing.

[RebelMan]

beden1, I think what you discovered is the exception not the rule. Very few musical notes reach the depths of the lowest audible octaves that 20Hz organs can muster. These include the double bassoon at 25Hz and pianos at 28Hz. Unless you listen to pre-recorded big band orchestra and/or cathedral like performances on a regular basis or live recordings of the same venue, you are unlikely to "need" a subwoofer as part of your daily listening regimen.

Most of what you will hear with subwoofers is distortion (often accompanied by poor crossover integration and flow ported designs) that is too often mistaken for bass much less "good" bass. I know what I am missing by not using a subwoofer and for my choice of genre the better for it.

[nicky]

I have to respectively disagree IMO.

Unless you have GREAT full range tower speakers (like rebelman does with his tower 800's) and a good powerful amp to push them (again like rebelman does with his classe amps), you can get really good to great sound "benefits" from using a good musical subwoofer.

Especially if you are buying any bookshelf speakers like the 705 or in the 600 series or even those shelf speakers in the 800 series. Some full range tower speakers can benefit as well depending on how they perform and the equipment you have.

I personally have the 703's and the 750 sub which I use for stereo music (ie I hate boomy or artifical exaggerated bass) and although the 703s's sound good alone (and on paper can handle the musical lows), they sound better with the subwoofer, which handles it better.

The key is to set it up correctly (with settings, placement, etc) so that it blends well and effortlessly with the main speakers. Or else, you'll just notice and localize the crappy bass coming from your subwoofer.

[Blindamood]

Until you listen to music with a quality sub/subs setup, you don't know what you're missing. I've come to the realization that subs are needed as much for music as they are for HT.

Actually, I do know what I'm missing. When I want the extra oomph of a sub, I move to my 'theater' room for listening, which includes a B&W ASW850 sub. I use this primarily for multi-channel listening (SACD/DVD-A), however.

[hifiguymi]

Between the CDM9NT and the 705, the CDM9NT is the clear winner for me. I had a pair of CDM9NT's before my current 804S's and they are quite good. I ran them with a 50 watt per channel Adcom amp for part of the time I had them and a Rotel RB-1070 for the rest of the time. The bass was very good and I never felt the need for a sub. I listen to a wide range of music - pop, rock, jazz, blues, classical, some country - and I like to lean on the volume control once in a while. I did have a Velodyne F1200 for a short time in my system and thought it was good, but unnecessary.

Eric

[wgriel]

beden1, I think what you discovered is the exception not the rule. Very few musical notes reach the depths of the lowest audible octaves that 20Hz organs can muster. These include the double bassoon at 25Hz and pianos at 28Hz. Unless you listen to pre-recorded big band orchestra and/or cathedral like performances on a regular basis or live recordings of the same venue, you are unlikely to "need" a subwoofer as part of your daily listening regimen.

I would tend to agree with this, but as you say I think it very much depends on the type of music you listen to. For the music I listen to, I don't miss a sub with my 703s - I actually find the in-room bass they put out is plenty!

I do have a sub in another system though, and I find it essential for home theater duty.

Bill

[beden1]

beden1, I think what you discovered is the exception not the rule. .

Most of what you will hear with subwoofers is distortion (often accompanied by poor crossover integration and flow ported designs) that is too often mistaken for bass much less "good" bass. I know what I am missing by not using a subwoofer and for my choice of genre the better for it.

Actually . . . my crossover setting is fine; I don't have flow ported subs; and the Velodyne auto EQ did a fine job of calibrating the subs, along with pre-pro auto calibration.

Bass distortion - I don't think so. I have been tweaking my subs setup for a long time now. I would have agreed with you in the past, if I had not gained the experience that I have incorporating subs into my systems. And, if companies like Velodyne had not developed EQ systems to help with the integration process.

But, since I now have the experience and the benefit of technological advances to disagree with you . . . I will disagree with your statement.

[beden1]

I would tend to agree with this, but as you say I think it very much depends on the type of music you listen to. For the music I listen to, I don't miss a sub with my 703s - I actually find the in-room bass they put out is plenty!

I do have a sub in another system though, and I find it essential for home theater duty.

Bill

I was also using the 703s as my main speakers for a while. I agree that their bass output is decent, but, you are not getting near the full complement of bass ranges without using a sub to fill-in. I added an ASW750 to the mix, and this sub blended extremely well with the 703s.

[beden1]

Actually, I do know what I'm missing. When I want the extra oomph of a sub, I move to my 'theater' room for listening, which includes a B&W ASW850 sub. I use this primarily for multi-channel listening (SACD/DVD-A), however.

You should try your ASW850 in your stereo music setup and see if your listening enjoyment improves.

I think some people think that using a sub is only needed when you want "extra oomph". Actually, when a sub or subs are properly integrated, you will gain a fuller/richer sound . . . and, a sound that is closer to the live performance or master recording.

[beden1]

I have to respectively disagree IMO.

Unless you have GREAT full range tower speakers (like rebelman does with his tower 800's) and a good powerful amp to push them (again like rebelman does with his classe amps), you can get really good to great sound "benefits" from using a good musical subwoofer.

Especially if you are buying any bookshelf speakers like the 705 or in the 600 series or even those shelf speakers in the 800 series. Some full range tower speakers can benefit as well depending on how they perform and the equipment you have.

I personally have the 703's and the 750 sub which I use for stereo music (ie I hate boomy or artifical exaggerated bass) and although the 703s's sound good alone (and on paper can handle the musical lows), they sound better with the subwoofer, which handles it better.

The key is to set it up correctly (with settings, placement, etc) so that it blends well and effortlessly with the main speakers. Or else, you'll just notice and localize the crappy bass coming from your subwoofer.

Exactly! My ADS 910s also have twin 10" woofers as does his B&W 800s , and I feel the subs are still a required benefit. I'm sure RebelMan would agree if he were to try and properly integrate quality subs into his sytem.

I also have twin subs in my other setup with 803D fronts and 703 rears.

[RebelMan]

I'm sure RebelMan would agree if he were to try and properly integrate quality subs into his sytem.

Been there done that, guess again... :B

[beden1]

Been there done that, guess again... :B

I'm not sure you've done that with your ASW825. A very nice sounding sub but a bit lacking with the EQ technology.

I have to say you are very confident, but, just don't drive a Porsche on the Arizona Desert roads. You don't want to have "been there done that" like your James Dean idol.

[RebelMan]

I'm not sure you've done that with your ASW825. A very nice sounding sub but a bit lacking with the EQ technology.

I have to say you are very confident, but, just don't drive a Porsche on the Arizona Desert roads. You don't want to have "been there done that" like your James Dean idol.

Actually, I have done it, with my 803S when I had them. I have two interests that I split my time equally between, the first of these is music the other is movies. How I setup the sub for music was very different from how I set it up for movies. Switching between the two was time consuming and the benefits for music were at best marginal with the 803S. Although, it could impress the uninitiated I was more critical of it. BOSE was also good at convincing people what they thought they needed and were very successful at it.

I have been rather fortunate to hear some of the most elaborate and expensive ($250K+) stereo systems ever built from the likes of McIntosh, mbl, Wilson Audio, TAD and many others and not one of them used a sub in the demonstrations conducted by the people that make them. My confidence is nothing more than a natural by-product from such exposure to these types of systems.

No offense but I see the use of subs in music re-production as an weak substitute for masking the real source of the problem. I would suggest an investigation into the equipment further upstream and room acoustics if you have problems with bass. Are you familiar with room boundary gain compensation techniques? Subs are fun and they have their place but far too often than not they are improperly used and abused. As a audio "truest", I don't subscribe to tonal controls either. My guess would be that you do.

BTW, Maybe you are not aware but my real name is James Dean, I am my own idol, LOL. I learned from my namesake long ago not to drive Porches... in California. :B

[pbarach]

No offense but I see the use of subs in music re-production as an weak substitute for masking the real source of the problem. I would suggest an investigation into the equipment further upstream and room acoustics if you have problems with bass.

Please don't take offense to my answer either, but there is a good argument to be made that subs are a way to avoid the compromises that you might have to make in placing a full-range (20-20K) speaker to get tight bass, avoid excitation of room modes, get good imaging, etc. The other factors you mention (which I've quoted from your message) don't go away just because a sub is part of the system, but may be easier to deal with when you don't have to worry about the other variables to consider in getting best reproduction of the frequencies above the sub's crossover point.
BTW, isn't "room boundary gain compensation" a kind of tone control? <g>

[beden1]

No offense but I see the use of subs in music re-production as an weak substitute for masking the real source of the problem. I would suggest an investigation into the equipment further upstream and room acoustics if you have problems with bass. Are you familiar with room boundary gain compensation techniques? Subs are fun and they have their place but far too often than not they are improperly used and abused. As a audio "truest", I don't subscribe to tonal controls either. My guess would be that you do.
:B

For the better part of 22+ years, I had a system of components with a stereo pre-amp that had no tonal controls. My current receiver has these controls, but are set flat and using only the 7 channel stereo mode.

I agree that quality components are needed to get closer to what my mind envisions/experienced to be a true reproduction of a live performance or master recording. But, today's predominantly digital electronics IMO have come a long way towards closing the gap between esoteric and mid level components. I also believe that the first and most important long term investment should be in the best speakers one can afford.

Currently, I am very happy with my Classe CAV-150 amp. I have been auditioning high level pre-pros, but am waiting before buying in order to see what happens with new standards. In the mean time however, so far I have to agree with my high end audio salesperson . . . who has the opinion that switching from the current use of my receiver as a pre-amp, will not produce a "WOW" effect from the get go, but will instead take listening time to appreciate.

Everything in life is a compromise, and for most enthusiasts, the building of a music/HT system is a never ending series of compromises. My personal enjoyment comes from the learning process, and by learning something new each step of the way, one can only truly appreciate the investment in tweaks and component upgrades.

RebelMan; you have a phenominal audio/HT system for which I'm sure you are extremely proud, particularly in starting out with what appears to be a new family, etc. I have numerous other responsibilities and hobbies in my life that kind of put my music interests on hold until I recently retired at 52. Now I have the regained interest, time and financial resources to re-build my systems with today's ever changing technologies. I'm looking forward to this journey along with the ability now to fully enjoy my many other interests.

[bigburner]

If you only listen to studio recordings of music then you may get away with using a pair of floorstanders such as the CDM9NT. However if you listen to live recordings then a sub is essential if you want your hi-fi system to approximate the sound that the audience is hearing at the concert.

You really feel the kick drum and the bass guitar at a concert. The thump of a kick drum is in the 60Hz to 100Hz range. A lifeless kick drum reduces the energy level of music and degrades the listening experience. That doesn't make sense when you can increase the energy level significantly by adding a sub to your system for a modest cost. [Note: you need to set the crossover of your sub to higher than 60Hz to obtain the benefits of having one.]

Across all live music genres these days the trend is to emphasise bass more than used to be the case, so the ability of your hi-fi system to deliver this is an important aspect of the modern listening experience. The lowest note you will hear on a 4-string bass guitar is 41Hz. Many bass players these days use a 5-string guitar so there are plenty of sub-40Hz notes to test your floorstanders. Unless you are fortunate enough to own a pair of 800D's then your floorstanders will struggle to deliver those low frequencies at the energy level that the artist intended.

My main interest in hi-fi is live music - DVDs especially. Until I can afford NZ$50k for a pair of 800D's then I consider my NZ$4k ASW750 sub to be an essential investment.

Nigel.