BW Speaker package for home theatre

[gurm]

Hello. I am new here and somewhat new to HT. I am planning on purchasing home theatre system. Here is what I am looking at:

Rotel RSP-1068
Amps:
Front: Rotel RB-1092
Center: RB-1091
Rear: RB-1072
Speakers:
Front: B&W 804S
Center: HTM4
Sub: B&W 825 or 750 or 700 (In this order)
Rear: SCM or DS7 or DS6 (in this order)

Forgive me if some of these questions have been asked.

1. I have read somewhere the HTM4 is not the best center to match with 804s. I think what I read was from 2004. I am not sure if some things have changed.

2. My first choice is Rotel separates for PrePro and amplifiers as above. But this combined with BW 804S package is stretching my budget a little. Is it better to go down a bit in speakers config but stay with Rotel separates or perhaps just use Rotel 5.1 amp?

3. Any sort of general opinions and suggestions would be very much appreciated. Suggestions such as maybe using 805S or 703.

Thank you all in advance.

Gurm

[jayhawk75]

if budget is stretched
1067
4 x 804
1 x 750
1 x htm7

i tinkered with that sysem for a while and the only thing i found was to have separation of sources from 1067. if you have a large screen and are heavily into ht 80 vs 20 then go with htm2. i dont think you are going to find a large difference in 750 vs 825 to justify cost. again your ears are the one to make the decision. the 1067 is more than enough to deal with the system. it is also flexible enough to add amps as you tinker with speakers.

[linuxtx]

You may consider looking at different amps, maybe the RB-1080 for the 804s, or even the 1095 for everything, they can still be found. I have run N804s for a few years now on the RB-991 (predecessor to the current RB-1080) and it is a good amount of power for those speakers. I have no doubt that the 1092 is a better amp, but the 1080 or 1095 would be a good way to save budget without giving up too much.

[scanido]

I have to agree with balancing the system out on the amplification side and more so on the speaker side. Although the 500w from the digital amps is very nice, you can potentially save here and use the remaining funds to balance out your speaker array, which is more important.

If it were me i would go for:

Rotel RSP-1068
Amps:
Multi: RB-1095
Speakers:
Front: B&W 804S
Center: HTM3S
Sub: 750
Rear: SCMS

Having similar speaker setup all around will give greater sound quality than having more power. The RMB-1095 I have read will be plenty to drive this setup and can be had at great prices on the used market.

[WI Rotel]

RMB 1095 user here. Strongly recommended. It will simplify your amplification needs and will provide you all the power you will need if not more. As other posters have said above the most critical issue is the speaker selection and matching. If your setting up an 8 series system use 8's all around 804 fronts, 805 rears and HTM4 center. Any decent sub will do many people around here are partial to velodyne (cheaper alternative) but as a BWphile I'm biased to BW subs. If the price gets too onerous you should audition a full XT system, I, as other members, am completely satisfied with it. It will cost significantly less, and the sound trade off is negligible compared to a system with 804 mains.

[hifiguymi]

scandio is on track with his recommendations, especially the center channel. If you are going to purchase 804S's then get the HTM3S center channel. The HTM3S is virtually an 804S turned sideways and would be a much better match. I would get the ASW825 however. The ASW750 is a very good sub and has the same amp that the ASW825 has, but the woofer and enclosure is much better in the ASW825. It's a faster sounding subwoofer in the deep bass. The ASW825 has a Rohacell woofer that is a better speaker than what's in the ASW750 and it has a matrix enclosure without parallel sides.

So the system would look like this:

RSP-1068
RMB-1095
804S
HTM3S
SCMS
ASW825

Best of luck and let us know what you decide.

Eric

[gurm]

Thanks to everyone for really good advice. The common thing seems to be put as much funds as possible into speaker set than amp power. This is exactly the type of advice I was looking for. I will tally it up and see how it affects my budget. I think, if I go with better speakers as suggested, I can only go with Rotel 1068 plus 1095 for amp. Now, if later I want to add two channel amp for middle side speakers, would I look for similar amp power outpu?

Also, any suggestions on type of music to audition the speakers with? I am not too up and up with all the terminology used to describe sound but I just know when I like it and when it does not sound good. (like wine.. just know if it tastes good or not!)

I am looking to get my system very soon. I will share with everyone what I get.

[linuxtx]

If you decide to add 2 more speakers and need a similar amp, I would move your mains to an RB-1080, same power, 2 channel design, because of the design very slightly better than 2 channels from the 1095 for driving the 804s. Of course this is all relative... I personally use a receiver to power my surrounds because it is "good enough" for home theater, and I really care about music. My N804 mains get the good power, my surrounds get the receiver. With the levels calibrated, it is perfect for my setup. If you listen to multichannel music though, I would go with the better amps.

[Ted]

I think scanido and Eric are probably giving you the most sound advice, using the 1095, 804S, HTM3S, SCMS (or I think you could look at the DS8S) and one of the B & W subs (I have no experience with their subs, but if everything else is 800 series, why not just stick with the 825 ).

As far as music to use to audition, I'd take something you really hate. If the speakers are really good, they will make even music you hate sound good! :W Okay, maybe not. I would just suggest music that you are really familiar with. If you listen to primarily one type of music, take a variety of artists along. If you like different types of music, listen to a variety of types. When auditioning the 703 & 804s, I just burned a CD with several different artists and types of music and listened to it. I took other music too, but the burned CD was a good place to start the comparisons. My dealer is great and gave me all the time I needed (several trips) to listen and decide.

[style]

set-up

Hoi,

The 1075&1095 are very good Amp. No Word,
But please at today see more long,
Icepower is inside = Rmb 1077 - Rb1092 - ...

I have the Rb1092 to drive the mains 803S, Rmb1075 that comes changes with the Rmb1077 (and Not a 1095) for center and rear all bi-amp.

This is my opinion but ....


Greetings from switzerland
Omar

[Briz vegas]

re burning a cd for convenience in the audition process - be wary of doing this. I was given a burnt version of a CD by a friend years ago. Only this year I got round to buying the original CD. While the burnt CD is ok, the original sounds better (more open, detailed and 3 dimensional). Its was only a alt pop CD but the copy sounds flat and less dynamic - which could impact on your evaluation of the speakers. I would suggest putting your favourite CDs in one of those carry cases - just as convenient and no potential to impact on sound quality.

At a recent hifi club meet I also heard a demo which indicated that audiophile quality DVD-A blanks ($8 US each) sound better than regular ones ($1US each), but that is another story.

[gurm]

Hello,

I repriced 804S for front, HTM3S for center, 825 for sub, and SCM for rear with Rotel 1068 and RMB-1095 amp. Here is what my problem is. HTM3S as oppose to HTM4 and 825 sub instead of 750, I blow my budget by about $2500. Big question... where can I cut cost here? Sub? Center? Is it more important to keep the speakers in similar range. My wife is trying to discourage scope creep!! Of course I can get matching speakers in 703 series and have amount to spend at Tiffany's for my wife for mother day !!!

Also, I have question about the tweeter in the 800 series B&W. How easy is it to mistake the tweeter with mic and pull it from speaker? I imagine that would be a costly thing for me and embarassing form who someone who pulls it! I don't worry about my kids at all.

Thanks all.

[linuxtx]

I guess it all depends on what your priorities are, I am more a music than HT fan, and frankly the HTM4 would be my first choice for saving money, it will blend just fine with the 804s and is not a bad center at all. The sub is also a reasonable place to cut costs, but again, depending on your needs, the surrounds might be a better place to cut costs. I went with LM-1s which are certainly nowhere near the SCM-s, but good enough... You might prefer the DS7 or 6. Of course I don't listen to surround music at all, just 2 channel... My rears are used for HT only. If you listen to surround music, I would stick with the SCM-S. It really is all about your personal needs. Honestly for my usage, I would have probably moved the SCMs to my office or the bedroom if I had started with them since the surrounds just don't do all that much in my typical listening. For most home theater use, you will notice shortcomings in the sub much more than you will in the surrounds.

[Briz vegas]

Hello,

I repriced 804S for front, HTM3S for center, 825 for sub, and SCM for rear with Rotel 1068 and RMB-1095 amp. Here is what my problem is. HTM3S as oppose to HTM4 and 825 sub instead of 750, I blow my budget by about $2500. Big question... where can I cut cost here? Sub? Center? Is it more important to keep the speakers in similar range. My wife is trying to discourage scope creep!! Of course I can get matching speakers in 703 series and have amount to spend at Tiffany's for my wife for mother day !!!

Also, I have question about the tweeter in the 800 series B&W. How easy is it to mistake the tweeter with mic and pull it from speaker? I imagine that would be a costly thing for me and embarassing form who someone who pulls it! I don't worry about my kids at all.

Thanks all.

When you repriced the speakers did you keep in mind that there may be a discount of 10%. This varies from dealer to dealer but I factored it into my purchasing decisions (which have always pushed my budget). You are buying alot of gear in one hit so they will want your business big time.

Get the HTM3. Personally I cannot understand why you would get a super sub (as opposed to just a very good one) and then use a mismatched centre channel.

I had a HTM7-705 front soundstage and it was absolutely seamless across the front. It gives a much more integrated sound and allows the three speakers to melt into one. Now I have 804s HTM7 and its ok but only because I already had the HTM7 and my budget was tighter than yours. For movies the current setup is barely better than the old one. While the 804 sounds so much better the HTM7 jumps out at you just when you least expect it. You can be sure that if money allows me to upgrade either my sub or the centre channel it will be an easy decision - centre channel.

750 is still a good sub and from what has been said here the 825 is even better, but it is a more flexible part of the speaker equation. Personally I use a REL sub because of my "2 channel music first" preference.

Note - HTM7 is only a match for the 705 & 704 - the HTM3 is probably the closest you will get for the703 - this forum is littered with complaints about the 700 series not having a FST centre channel to match the 703.

[RebelMan]

I repriced 804S for front, HTM3S for center, 825 for sub, and SCM for rear with Rotel 1068 and RMB-1095 amp. Here is what my problem is. HTM3S as oppose to HTM4 and 825 sub instead of 750, I blow my budget by about $2500. Big question... where can I cut cost here?

You could keep your speaker system of choice and simultaneously save $2400. Rather than an RSP-1068 and RMB-1095 get a RSX-1057 instead. You'll achieve 99% of the sound quality of the Rotel separates and you'll stay within your budget. Furthermore, you'll have more time to save for a separate multi-channel amplifier and next generation pre/pro when it hit’s the mainstream. Plus you can take your time evaluating your future upgrade options, which is certain to happen.

Speaking as a previous owner of an RSX-1056, I found it had plenty of guts to respectfully drive a system consisting of a pair of 803S, an HTM3S, a pair of SCMS and an ASW-825. It will certainly satisfy the system you have in mind. It's not the most ideal recommendation but it will give you the best bang for the buck now with room to grow later.

I guarantee you will compromise more otherwise.

[bigburner]

re burning a cd for convenience in the audition process - be wary of doing this. I was given a burnt version of a CD by a friend years ago. Only this year I got round to buying the original CD. While the burnt CD is ok, the original sounds better (more open, detailed and 3 dimensional). Its was only a alt pop CD but the copy sounds flat and less dynamic - which could impact on your evaluation of the speakers. I would suggest putting your favourite CDs in one of those carry cases - just as convenient and no potential to impact on sound quality.

At a recent hifi club meet I also heard a demo which indicated that audiophile quality DVD-A blanks ($8 US each) sound better than regular ones ($1US each), but that is another story.

Briz, a copied CD will sound identical to the original if it's bit perfect (lots of copying software provides this). That's because it's a digital copy - zeros and ones. It's like saying you shouldn't back up your documents using a CD writer because the words will be spelt differently when you recover those documents from the CD. As you know that just doesn't happen.

Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

Briz, a copied CD will sound identical to the original if it's bit perfect (lots of copying software provides this). That's because it's a digital copy - zeros and ones. It's like saying you shouldn't back up your documents using a CD writer because the words will be spelt differently when you recover those documents from the CD. As you know that just doesn't happen.

Nigel.

You would think so wouldn't you.

Not wanting to get too far off topic, but that does not explain why "Stories from the City, stories from the Sea" by PJ Harvey sounds clearer with more air and detail on the commercial CD vs the burnt version. I was expecting the opposite. I had recently read that the burnt CD should be superior as it was not produced through a high speed manufacturing process. This also does not explain how a room full of hifi heads (who love to debate this kind of stuff) heard clear differences between 2 different blank DVD-As burnt with the same Os and 1s at DVD-A bit rates.

In the case of my Cd, one possibility is that my friend did not use lossless software so the sound was simplified. The other possibility is error correction. The latest Rega CD players employ a process where the disc is read first to determine the minimum level of error correction before it plays the disc. If that error correction is a sophisticated algorithm filling in the missing 0 and 1s - would that not account for the lost detail? CD replay is a real time process, unlike reading a word document or similar where you might read the missing data again.

Maybe there is a DAC/software designer out there who can clarify this.

[scanido]

I'm going to side with RebelMan on this one as i am currently using the same configuration, minus the SCMS and ASW825. The RSX-1057 is powering my 803S and HTM3S and it is quite surprising how powerful this receiver is. Although it is not ideal in terms of power, like many say, this would be the most beneficial piece to compromise on. With new Processors and surround sound formats just on the horizon, I would hold off here at the very least and focus 80-90% on the speakers. If you have a larger room you may need additional power so you can minus the processor and use what you have now as a Pre and get the amp.

If you intend to use the system for any HT/TV viewing, there is no better speaker to couple the 804S than the HTM3S. Don't skimp on this. I am always amazed how life-like and full-sounding the HTM3s is.

Good luck and let us know what you get.

[hifiguymi]

I think getting an RSX-1057 is a good idea as well. It will work well with those speakers for the time being and is the most logical thing to upgrade in the short term.

Definitely stick with the HTM3S. The HTM4S is a great speaker with the 805S (it's basically the same speaker in a different shaped cabinet) but it doesn’t quite match the other 800 Series as well.

Eric

[Miroku]

If you get Front Left and Right with FST Midrange drivers, ultimately you won't be happy with any of B&W's Center Channel speakers except for the HTM3s (or the two more expensive diamond ones if you went with diamond tweetered front L&R)

[hifiguymi]

You would think so wouldn't you.

Not wanting to get too far off topic, but that does not explain why "Stories from the City, stories from the Sea" by PJ Harvey sounds clearer with more air and detail on the commercial CD vs the burnt version. I was expecting the opposite. I had recently read that the burnt CD should be superior as it was not produced through a high speed manufacturing process. This also does not explain how a room full of hifi heads (who love to debate this kind of stuff) heard clear differences between 2 different blank DVD-As burnt with the same Os and 1s at DVD-A bit rates.

In the case of my Cd, one possibility is that my friend did not use lossless software so the sound was simplified. The other possibility is error correction. The latest Rega CD players employ a process where the disc is read first to determine the minimum level of error correction before it plays the disc. If that error correction is a sophisticated algorithm filling in the missing 0 and 1s - would that not account for the lost detail? CD replay is a real time process, unlike reading a word document or similar where you might read the missing data again.

Maybe there is a DAC/software designer out there who can clarify this.

If the copy was made on a computer, the ripping/burning software was probably set to rip with a lossy compression. When you toss out those bits, they don't come back when the info is burned on a blank disc. That, I'm sure was the difference in sound between the original and the copy. I have heard differences in copies using some of the lossless compressions, but far less so.

Eric

[gurm]

Looks like the main theme here is to put as much funds into speakers as possible. Kind people who shared some good advice have convinced me on matching speakers at least for front and center. I guess I under estimated the actual selling price of the B&W speakers (804S, HTM3S,ASW825, and SCMS). I am also convinced that at this point, not to spend a lot of electronics as from what I here next few years may be another major technology upgrades especially in HT (i.e. HDMI 1.3, etc).

So going with Rotel RSX-1067 and above mentioned B&W set, I go over by $2K (re: HTM3S price). I talked to the dealer about 1057 and he does not think it can effectively drive 804Ss. I have two questions/comments:

1. Can I use my KEF speakers for rear? Eliminating SCMS for now will reduce cost by just over $2K. Then I can get RSX-1067 with B&W speakers as above.

2. I can also save a lot if I buy the speakers from a US store. I have no idea if the speakers will have any warranty in Canada.

3. How good are B&W subs 750 and 700?

Thanks.

[style]

BW speaker package HT

Hi,

I have the 803S mains, Htm7 center, 703 rear ( subB&W750).
I want change the center: Htm4s or Htm3s?
Why the Htm4s don’t macht with the 803S? (“only” for FST ?)
The Htm3S is very nice but very expensive! (in switzerland $ 3500.-)

Buy a Htm4s pay (from the Htm7) or is better waiting and search a Htm3s (even a second hand/demo?)

Omar

[jayhawk75]

Looks like the main theme here is to put as much funds into speakers as possible. Kind people who shared some good advice have convinced me on matching speakers at least for front and center. I guess I under estimated the actual selling price of the B&W speakers (804S, HTM3S,ASW825, and SCMS). I am also convinced that at this point, not to spend a lot of electronics as from what I here next few years may be another major technology upgrades especially in HT (i.e. HDMI 1.3, etc).

So going with Rotel RSX-1067 and above mentioned B&W set, I go over by $2K (re: HTM3S price). I talked to the dealer about 1057 and he does not think it can effectively drive 804Ss. I have two questions/comments:

1. Can I use my KEF speakers for rear? Eliminating SCMS for now will reduce cost by just over $2K. Then I can get RSX-1067 with B&W speakers as above.



2. I can also save a lot if I buy the speakers from a US store. I have no idea if the speakers will have any warranty in Canada.

3. How good are B&W subs 750 and 700?

Thanks.

you will be happy with 750... use the kef for rears until you get a chance to decide on rear. the 3 most important speakers and in my view the system are the mains for music and center for ht. you definitely need to have those to your liking so give it a listen before purchase.

[akhter]

re burning a cd for convenience in the audition process - be wary of doing this. I was given a burnt version of a CD by a friend years ago. Only this year I got round to buying the original CD. While the burnt CD is ok, the original sounds better (more open, detailed and 3 dimensional). Its was only a alt pop CD but the copy sounds flat and less dynamic - which could impact on your evaluation of the speakers. I would suggest putting your favourite CDs in one of those carry cases - just as convenient and no potential to impact on sound quality.

At a recent hifi club meet I also heard a demo which indicated that audiophile quality DVD-A blanks ($8 US each) sound better than regular ones ($1US each), but that is another story.

If you burn from full bandwidth wave files it would sound identical. If there is some bandwidth compression, i.e. import to itunes/wmplayer in an format other than lossless/Wave and then burn, then it would sound significantly worse than original CDs.

[hifiguymi]

Hi,

I have the 803S mains, Htm7 center, 703 rear ( subB&W750).
I want change the center: Htm4s or Htm3s?
Why the Htm4s don’t macht with the 803S? (“only” for FST ?)
The Htm3S is very nice but very expensive! (in switzerland $ 3500.-)

Buy a Htm4s pay (from the Htm7) or is better waiting and search a Htm3s (even a second hand/demo?)

Omar

Definitely get the HTM3S. It's the one to get for the 803S (and the 804S for that matter). The HTM4S is the best match for the 805S. Going from the HTM7 to the HTM4S is too much of a lateral move.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

Looks like the main theme here is to put as much funds into speakers as possible. Kind people who shared some good advice have convinced me on matching speakers at least for front and center. I guess I under estimated the actual selling price of the B&W speakers (804S, HTM3S,ASW825, and SCMS). I am also convinced that at this point, not to spend a lot of electronics as from what I here next few years may be another major technology upgrades especially in HT (i.e. HDMI 1.3, etc).

So going with Rotel RSX-1067 and above mentioned B&W set, I go over by $2K (re: HTM3S price). I talked to the dealer about 1057 and he does not think it can effectively drive 804Ss. I have two questions/comments:

1. Can I use my KEF speakers for rear? Eliminating SCMS for now will reduce cost by just over $2K. Then I can get RSX-1067 with B&W speakers as above.

2. I can also save a lot if I buy the speakers from a US store. I have no idea if the speakers will have any warranty in Canada.

3. How good are B&W subs 750 and 700?

Thanks.

I would get the ASW825 and use your rear speakers for now then uprade to the SCMS in the future. I'm a huge believer in getting matching rears for the best soundstage, but get the better sub now. I think the rears would be the easiest upgrade in the future.

Eric

[hd99yr]

Hello,

I blow my budget by about $2500. Big question... where can I cut cost here? Sub? Center?
Thanks all.

You could always look on audiogon. I have built a speaker setup all through them with the exception of a sub. Picked up a pair of 802D's new in the box for $8K. Also 804 and 804s.

Try this for b&w

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?BAAW

And this for rotel

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?Rotel

I couldn't afford to build what I'm building by buying new. So far I have no complaints and am looking forward to the amplifier, processor hunt. :T

[gurm]

Unfortunately, most of them on audiogon say ship to "Only USA". I am in Canada. Although I will keep checking. Has anyone heard of something known as "stock B" spekers from B&W? From what I have been told, they come with full warranty and are in perfect condition. Same thing goes with Rotel also. In some cases the prices are pretty good but the only trick is to get the right colour for speakers.

Also, hopefully not off topic but did not want to start a seaprate thread. I guess the cost of wires can add up also. Any guidlines on this for the type of gear we have been talking about in this thread. Thanks.

[scanido]

Unfortunately, most of them on audiogon say ship to "Only USA". I am in Canada. Although I will keep checking. Has anyone heard of something known as "stock B" spekers from B&W? From what I have been told, they come with full warranty and are in perfect condition. Same thing goes with Rotel also. In some cases the prices are pretty good but the only trick is to get the right colour for speakers.

Also, hopefully not off topic but did not want to start a seaprate thread. I guess the cost of wires can add up also. Any guidlines on this for the type of gear we have been talking about in this thread. Thanks.

In my experience i had terrible results with "B" stock Rotel equipment. I went through two RSX-1056 units before throwing in the towel and getting a new RSX-1057. The first unit had one front channel that never worked and the second unit had it's optical connection assembly loose and its door missing. I personally wouldn't bother with "B" stock any longer, at least for Rotel.

Also, I wouldn't expect B&W "B" stock to be in "perfect condition" as i heard most have cosmetic imperfections, but sound-wise they should be up to par. If you can live with that then it's always good saving a few bucks!