Upgrade from 803s to 802D?

[dmccombs]

I am hoping you can help me with a decision. I know these sound questions come down to my room and my ears, but I would still like your opinions.

I have the chance to trade in my 6 months old 803s (plus $5000) to 802D. Currently my speakers have very similar timber, but the 802Ds are terrific sounding speakers.

Will I mess up my 5.1 imaging by upgrading, or will upgrading be a noticible improvment? Below is additional info about my listening habits, rquipment, and room.

I split time pretty evenly between:
Cable TV (5.1)
SACD & DVD-A (mostly 5.1)
HD-DVD (5.1)
CD (2CH)

I currently have the following equipment:
Fronts: 803s (considering upgrade to 802D)
Center: HTMS3
Rears: 804s
Sub: SVS 20-39pci
Amps: Krell Kav250a/3 (3CH), and Kav-250a (2CH)
Prepro: Halcro SSP-100
Source: Denon 3930ci Universal Player
Source: Toshiba HD-DVD player
Souce: SA 8300HD Cable Box
GIK Bass Traps and 4" Acoustic Panels

Room Size: 15'w x 27'l x 8'h

Thanks,
Darrell

[jericho]

I am hoping you can help me with a decision. I know these sound questions come down to my room and my ears, but I would still like your opinions.

I have the chance to trade in my 6 months old 803s (plus $5000) to 802D. Currently my speakers have very similar timber, but the 802Ds are terrific sounding speakers.

Will I mess up my 5.1 imaging by upgrading, or will upgrading be a noticible improvment? Below is additional info about my listening habits, rquipment, and room.

I split time pretty evenly between:
Cable TV (5.1)
SACD & DVD-A (mostly 5.1)
HD-DVD (5.1)
CD (2CH)

I currently have the following equipment:
Fronts: 803s (considering upgrade to 802D)
Center: HTMS3
Rears: 804s
Sub: SVS 20-39pci
Amps: Krell Kav250a/3 (3CH), and Kav-250a (2CH)
Prepro: Halcro SSP-100
Source: Denon 3930ci Universal Player
Source: Toshiba HD-DVD player
Souce: SA 8300HD Cable Box
GIK Bass Traps and 4" Acoustic Panels

Room Size: 15'w x 27'l x 8'h

Thanks,
Darrell

It will be a noticeable upgrade.The difference between 803's and 802D is fabulous.If you can (if money is not the problem and neither is the WAF), just go for it!!!

[ShadowZA]

I would say go for it. You might also think of budgeting to upgrade your HTMS3 to an HTM2D or even to an HTM1D (which has the matching Marlan head) so that the fronts all have matching diamond tweeters as well as great timbre matching.

Good luck & keep us posted :T

[RebelMan]

I strongly recommend that you keep what you have unless you intend to change out your center channel too or if you have more flexible placement options than I have, keeping the drivers on the same horizontal plane. My center is mounted on the B&W FS-HTM stand.

I have the HTM3S paired with the 800D and sound staging is horribly smeared, dialog and onscreen action is disjointed between the L and R channels and horizontal pans and object motion is irregular. My attention is drawn to the speaker not to the screen. I have been rustling with these issues for months. It is so bad that I am to the point of selling my HTM3S and conceding to live with a phantom center or investing in an arrangement of FPMs or M1s for home cinema.

The 803S that I owned previously is significantly a better match with the HTM3S. I never would have sold them if I had the room to spare for a dedicated home theater. In addition, next to the 800D, I have found the 803S to be the best tonally balanced speaker in the 800 Series line. I find it to be the perfect speaker for doing equal chores between two-channel music and multi-channel home theater.

[Dave999]

Rebel, have you tried the HTM1D paired with your 800D speakers. That should significantly improve the problems that you are having with your center channel smearing dialog and the sound stage.

[Dave999]

I also had 802N speakers before with a the previous largest center channel before the D series and had no problems with the center channel.

[gostan]

I have found the 803S to be the best tonally balanced speaker in the 800 Series line. I find it to be the perfect speaker for doing equal chores between two-channel music and multi-channel home theater.

Rebelman, without commiting sacrilige in the B&W Club, my own take was that the 803S were not substantially better sounding than my N803's. Personally, the 803D is the best sounding speaker (for the type of music that I listen to) in the 800 Series line.

But the cost of upgrading the center channel to the "D" series to match the 803D's and have them be tonally matched is overly exorbitant. Thus, you may be correct about the 803S being tonally balanced for both HT & 2 channel, but that is only because of the manner in which B&W has produced this particular series.

[dmccombs]

Rebelman,

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate your help.

You mentioned you had issues because of the low placement of your center. You also mentioned the HTM3S not being the best match for the 802D. Which of these issues is leading to your smeared soundstage? Or, is it a combination of both.

Like you, I have my center mounted low, just below my DLP TV screen. I don't find it too bad. But if the staging gets worse because the HTM3s mismatch with the 802D, then that is an issue.

If this doesn't work, I could contine my current path and end up with 803s on the 4 corners and the HTM3s for the center, and invest soem $$$ in getting the HTM3s mounted just above my screen.

Thanks,
Darrell

[dmccombs]

Shadow,

I wonder if the HTM2D is a decent match with the 802D. I know the HTM1D is the best match, but that is pretty pricey. If I upgrade to the 802D now, I could upgrade the center to HTM2D later. Would this work well? Or is the HTM1D necessary?

Thanks,
Darrell

I would say go for it. You might also think of budgeting to upgrade your HTMS3 to an HTM2D or even to an HTM1D (which has the matching Marlan head) so that the fronts all have matching diamond tweeters as well as great timbre matching.

Good luck & keep us posted :T

[ShadowZA]

Darrell, I am unable to give a decent pragmatic opinion on this as I do not have personal experience.

However, this may be of some help:

The B&W sites says this about the HTM2D: Designed to partner the 803D, and even the 802/801/800 models when space restrictions preclude the larger HTM1D. ...

The site says this about the HTM1D: The HTM1D is the largest of four centre speakers in the 800 Series. It could be considered an 802D with a different aspect. The full configuration of FST™ midrange in a Marlan® sphere/tube 'head' with diamond dome tweeter on top is used so that the system perfectly matches either the 800D, 801D or 802D in a substantial and powerful multi-channel installation. ... The HTM1D is specifically intended to be mounted on the floor ...

Regarding my personal feel: If I were to upgrade from my present 803D's to the 802D's, I know that I would be very tempted to go for the perfectly matching HTM1D. It might not be entirely necessary ... but that's just me .

Even though the HTM1D is designed as a floor mount, I feel certain that it could be accommodated on my existing rack.

"Temptation?" ... tell me about it! :twisted:

[Kobus]

"Temptation?" ... tell me about it! :twisted:

Shadow, . I love it and will be following your moves.

Keep well.

Kobus

[dmccombs]

Shadow,

I had read the B&W literature too. I am hoping those that have heard both the HTM2D and HTM1D with the 802Ds could give thier impressions.

Having to upgrade to a HTM1D in order to make the 802D setup sound nice for 5.1, would be too much. It would be great if I could just keep my HTM3S and get good results, but that would be too easy, eh?

Regards,
Darrell

[DM3000 Owner]

I am hoping you can help me with a decision. I know these sound questions come down to my room and my ears, but I would still like your opinions.

I have the chance to trade in my 6 months old 803s (plus $5000) to 802D. Currently my speakers have very similar timber, but the 802Ds are terrific sounding speakers.

Will I mess up my 5.1 imaging by upgrading, or will upgrading be a noticible improvment? Below is additional info about my listening habits, rquipment, and room.

I split time pretty evenly between:
Cable TV (5.1)
SACD & DVD-A (mostly 5.1)
HD-DVD (5.1)
CD (2CH)

I currently have the following equipment:
Fronts: 803s (considering upgrade to 802D)
Center: HTMS3
Rears: 804s
Sub: SVS 20-39pci
Amps: Krell Kav250a/3 (3CH), and Kav-250a (2CH)
Prepro: Halcro SSP-100
Source: Denon 3930ci Universal Player
Source: Toshiba HD-DVD player
Souce: SA 8300HD Cable Box
GIK Bass Traps and 4" Acoustic Panels

Room Size: 15'w x 27'l x 8'h

Thanks,
Darrell

For about the same money (if you sold your 803's) you should be able to get into a mint pair of N800's. Check Audiogon.

[scanido]

dmccombs - if you can get close to what you invested in your 803S then considering the 802D would be a good move. I would also tally up the actual final cost of the 802D and figure if it is a worthwhile upgrade, but then again, this wouldn't hold much merit if you love the 802D anyway!

[ShadowZA]

Shadow, . I love it and will be following your moves.

Keep well.

Kobus

Thanks Kobus ... nothing like the onset of winter here so that we can hunker down & enjoy our B & W's.

Stay well too.

[dmccombs]

Scanido,

I can trade my 803S speaker plus $5000 a used set of 802D. IT is a local delaer so there is no shipping costs involved.

Regards,
Darrell

[RebelMan]

Rebel, have you tried the HTM1D paired with your 800D speakers. That should significantly improve the problems that you are having with your center channel smearing dialog and the sound stage.

I haven't tried it and like you said it should make a difference. Unfortunately, there are two major hurtles with the HTM1D.

For one thing it's massive. I'm already pushing the spatial requirements with just my 800D. I don't have the space to place what is really a horizontal 802D. The other thing it's expensive. For $8K I could add another 800D and reach perfect timbre across the front stage. But then I would have issues with visible access to the screen.

The HTMD1 would be a decent option but it's still a compromise and at these prices unacceptable. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[RebelMan]

Rebelman, without commiting sacrilige in the B&W Club, my own take was that the 803S were not substantially better sounding than my N803's. Personally, the 803D is the best sounding speaker (for the type of music that I listen to) in the 800 Series line.

But the cost of upgrading the center channel to the "D" series to match the 803D's and have them be tonally matched is overly exorbitant. Thus, you may be correct about the 803S being tonally balanced for both HT & 2 channel, but that is only because of the manner in which B&W has produced this particular series.

Hey Stan, I don’t want anyone to be mislead by my statement regarding the 803S. My statement doesn’t imply that 803S is the best sounding speaker in B&W’s arsenal. Only that it is the most well rounded, the 800D being the exception. The 803D and 802D are marvelous speakers and I found myself attracted to each of their strengths but equally turned off by each of their weaknesses. Both better the 803S in specific ways but neither were as well balanced overall.

The 803S’s faults lie with a slightly edgy treble and too polite bass. But neither of these weaknesses overwhelms the listener with its presentation. Bass on the 803D is smooth and even but presence energy is too reserved. Vocals sound somewhat thickened. The 802D on the other hand delivers mid-band refinement and is closer to neutrality but mid-bass production is far too ripe. Again both the 803D and the 802D are significant improvements over the 803S but neither is quite as linear. It isn’t until you jump to the 800D that ruler flat response is once again achieved throughout the audible band.

I spent months deliberating between the 803D and the 802D but never reached a happy conclusion. It was a leap of faith to get the 800D. I was hoping for the best but fearing for the worst. Now I can say with 100% conviction and without any hesitation that it was the right move for me to make. The 800D is unlike the rest of the 800 Series and it belongs in a class of its own.

[RebelMan]

Hey dmccombs, I suspect that both the combination of driver mismatches and cabinet orientation and placement are equal factors to my problem.

There will always be some noticeable misalignment in phase relationships and increases in lobe effects between speakers with different driver types and orientations, which is somewhat the case with the vertically mounted drivers of the 803S versus the horizontally mounted drivers of the HTM3S. But as you move up the line to a speaker system like the 802D, you will further exacerbate these issues as changes in driver timbre and increases in horizontal separation of the driver planes occurs.

Ideally all three speakers should be identical but this is, for most people, impractical. But as the similarities between the center and the mains lessons with further changes to cabinet construction and driver placement the issues I spoke about earlier become increasingly more apparent.

I think the 802D are wonderful speakers and should be your top consideration for two-channel sources. But if you are like me and you spilt your time evenly between music and movies, you’ll want to maintain a balanced system or you’ll need to make concessions to one format of entertainment over the other. Either this or develop a higher tolerance for compromises. I was hoping to get buy with the HTM3S and 800D combo but it's just not working. Now I am forced to choose between the lessor of two evils, a phantom center or a new solution like the FPMs.

Staging will worsen given your situation but you may be more willing to accept the results than I would be. When faced with a choice to mount the center above or below the screen, most people including myself have found the latter to perform best. There are always exceptions though, no right or wrong here.

[dmccombs]

Rebelman,

Thanks for the explanation. I have a feeling I am as picky about having a seamless surrond environmnet as you are. I think if I get the 802Ds, I will have to upgrade the center to a HTM2D. My dealer is great about loaning me stuff so I am sure I can demo the HTM2D at some point, to see if it will work out.

In fact, I am going to "demo" the 802Ds before signing on the dotted line. The dealer is dropping them off Saturday so I can decide with my ears in my room.

Thanks,
Darrell

[dmccombs]

I have another 802D related question.

I plan on driving the 802Ds with a Krell Kav250a amp (250 wpc). I also have a Krell 300il integrated amp (200wpc) that has a Bypass function. Would the 802Ds sound better if I use both amp in a bi-amp configuration?

I would use the Kav-250a for the bass, and the 300il for the midrange/tweeter. The 250a has a good strong low end and the 300il has a lower distortion rating in the 1kz range.

Thanks,
Darrell

[Alaric]

I strongly recommend that you keep what you have unless you intend to change out your center channel too or if you have more flexible placement options than I have, keeping the drivers on the same horizontal plane. My center is mounted on the B&W FS-HTM stand.

I have the HTM3S paired with the 800D and sound staging is horribly smeared, dialog and onscreen action is disjointed between the L and R channels and horizontal pans and object motion is irregular. My attention is drawn to the speaker not to the screen. I have been rustling with these issues for months. It is so bad that I am to the point of selling my HTM3S and conceding to live with a phantom center or investing in an arrangement of FPMs or M1s for home cinema.

The 803S that I owned previously is significantly a better match with the HTM3S. I never would have sold them if I had the room to spare for a dedicated home theater. In addition, next to the 800D, I have found the 803S to be the best tonally balanced speaker in the 800 Series line. I find it to be the perfect speaker for doing equal chores between two-channel music and multi-channel home theater.

FWIW , if your CC speaker sounds like crap based on 36" to 48" of placement (vertically) , I would seriously consider another brand of speaker.

[jayhawk75]

Rebelman,

Thanks for the explanation. I have a feeling I am as picky about having a seamless surrond environmnet as you are. I think if I get the 802Ds, I will have to upgrade the center to a HTM2D. My dealer is great about loaning me stuff so I am sure I can demo the HTM2D at some point, to see if it will work out.

In fact, I am going to "demo" the 802Ds before signing on the dotted line. The dealer is dropping them off Saturday so I can decide with my ears in my room.

Thanks,
Darrell

make sure that he brings the bill of sale with him as the demo will last less than 5 minutes prior to the sale. this is a no brainer upgrade with no downside.

[RebelMan]

FWIW , if your CC speaker sounds like crap based on 36" to 48" of placement (vertically) , I would seriously consider another brand of speaker.

This logic is lost on me. I don't have an issue with quality I have an issue with constraints.

[ShadowZA]

I have another 802D related question.

I plan on driving the 802Ds with a Krell Kav250a amp (250 wpc). I also have a Krell 300il integrated amp (200wpc) that has a Bypass function. Would the 802Ds sound better if I use both amp in a bi-amp configuration?

I would use the Kav-250a for the bass, and the 300il for the midrange/tweeter. The 250a has a good strong low end and the 300il has a lower distortion rating in the 1kz range.

Thanks,
Darrell

I drive the 803D's using 2 channels on the Krell KAV-3250 amp. Imho, the Krell does a superb job. It doubles its power when driving a load of 4 ohms. Your Kav-250a sould have no problem driving your 802D's.

Regarding passive bi-amping (having amplification before crossover rather than between crossover and drivers) ... my opinion is that you create a reserve of power such that should the source demand it (in terms of power-sapping low frequencies), it is there and will deliver without having to 'steal' power from the midrange & high frequencies and in so doing not diminish the overall musical experience in any way.

I am also of the opinion that these Krell amps (even though not as powerful as their big brothers - Evolution/FPB) have power reserves which far exceed their stated specs & so would like to put forward that there might be a lesser need to bi-amp if you are using Krell power.

The best would be for you to do some comparisons yourself. If bi-amping results in a better overall sound/setup for you, then it is the right thing for you to do.

[gostan]

Hey Stan, I don’t want anyone to be mislead by my statement regarding the 803S. My statement doesn’t imply that 803S is the best sounding speaker in B&W’s arsenal. Only that it is the most well rounded, the 800D being the exception. The 803D and 802D are marvelous speakers and I found myself attracted to each of their strengths but equally turned off by each of their weaknesses. Both better the 803S in specific ways but neither were as well balanced overall.

The 803S’s faults lie with a slightly edgy treble and too polite bass. But neither of these weaknesses overwhelms the listener with its presentation. Bass on the 803D is smooth and even but presence energy is too reserved. Vocals sound somewhat thickened. The 802D on the other hand delivers mid-band refinement and is closer to neutrality but mid-bass production is far too ripe. Again both the 803D and the 802D are significant improvements over the 803S but neither is quite as linear. It isn’t until you jump to the 800D that ruler flat response is once again achieved throughout the audible band.

I spent months deliberating between the 803D and the 802D but never reached a happy conclusion. It was a leap of faith to get the 800D. I was hoping for the best but fearing for the worst. Now I can say with 100% conviction and without any hesitation that it was the right move for me to make. The 800D is unlike the rest of the 800 Series and it belongs in a class of its own.

Rebelman, Well thought out concise explanation. Those 800's are superb!!

[dmccombs]

Shadow,

Thanks for the feedback. My Kav-250a/3 is very similar to your 3250 amp. I am glad you like how it is performing.

I guess I will run the 802D with just the Kav-250a/ for a few days to get used to the sound, then add the 300il and see if there is noticable improvement.

Thanks,
Darrell

I drive the 803D's using 2 channels on the Krell KAV-3250 amp. Imho, the Krell does a superb job. It doubles its power when driving a load of 4 ohms. Your Kav-250a sould have no problem driving your 802D's.

Regarding passive bi-amping (having amplification before crossover rather than between crossover and drivers) ... my opinion is that you create a reserve of power such that should the source demand it (in terms of power-sapping low frequencies), it is there and will deliver without having to 'steal' power from the midrange & high frequencies and in so doing not diminish the overall musical experience in any way.

I am also of the opinion that these Krell amps (even though not as powerful as their big brothers - Evolution/FPB) have power reserves which far exceed their stated specs & so would like to put forward that there might be a lesser need to bi-amp if you are using Krell power.

The best would be for you to do some comparisons yourself. If bi-amping results in a better overall sound/setup for you, then it is the right thing for you to do.

[VictorHRS]

Again both the 803D and the 802D are significant improvements over the 803S but neither is quite as linear. It isn’t until you jump to the 800D that ruler flat response is once again achieved throughout the audible band.

To me it was quite different, the 800D didn't justify the price difference between the 800D and 802D, and that decision was taken through very long listening sessions on a reference room and system (Wadia System 9, various Classé amps, Delta and Omega, top cabling and acoustical treatment, very large room). The 802Ds are very special.

And Darrell, I own a Nautilus HTM2 center speaker and it doesn't bother me at all in mch. But bear in mind that I'm a 2ch guy, mch is almost exclusively for movies.

[dmccombs]

What about bridging (2) Kav-250a amps?

I asked Krell support about this and they said they didn't recommend it, becasue the 802Ds are an unstalbe load (drops to ~3.5 Ohm sometimes). But, I see on the forums that other people bridge their amps with the 802Ds.

[RebelMan]

To me it was quite different, the 800D didn't justify the price difference between the 800D and 802D...

Worth is a measure that can only be determined by the individual making it. Others may not see the value in the 802D either. Regardless, their judgment doesn't alter the fact that it remains an excellent speaker. The 802D has been properly placed within the 800 Series society, likewise with the 800D.

[dmccombs]

Well, I made the big plunge and upgraded to the 802Ds. Obviously, I have optimize the setup, but I have gotten off to a good start.

I have the speakers 7' 4" from the front wall (wall to tweeter), and 4' from the side walls (wall to tweeter. This leaves 7' seperation (tweeter to tweeter). My seating position is 10' from the speakers.

Sometimes I feel I am too close to the speakers, but if I move further away. I can't see my 65" TV :x . The TV is 9" behinf the back of the speakers. If I pull it forward it messes up the soundstage. Thus the problem with using a combined HT and serious music setup.

The delivery guy showed me the SQ difference between the plastic phase plugs (w/ grill), and the metal phase plugs. Wow what a difference. The metal plugs make a noticable improvement.

My Halcro SSP-100 is in the shop, so I am having to use my Denon 3806 as Prepro so I am not getting the full WOW yet.

Rebelman nailed it. The 803S is more balanced, but overall the 802D is an improvement.

I have and SMS-1 and SVS Sub. Can I ask what crossover point you all are using when you use a sub with the 802D? Unfortuanately, my Sub is the lower end SVS (20-39 pci) and the 802D is cleaner. I am trying to only use the sub where the 802D is defficient.

Right now, I am runing my speakers as Large and the sub as LFE+Main. Then I have the SMS-1 give me flat line. This way the sub is used as filler, mainly under 30hz.

If you have any other 802D newbee suggestions, please let me know.

Thanks,
Darrell

[dmccombs]

Well, overlapping the sub and 802D (LFE+Main) didn't work out well. Even though I could get a flat line from 20-80hz, the whole region was set too high. It was too much bass.

So, I have gone back to crossing everything over at 40hz. This sounds more natural.

Thanks for everyones help in this upgrade decision.

Regards,
Darrell

[gostan]

Darrell:
Congrats on your new 802D's. Enjoy them!

[Gremal]

This thread has been helpful to me; I wanted to bring it up because I am also upgrading to the 802D and I will have a tough choice to make about the center.

1. Keep my HTM-1 and hope it's somewhat cohesive with the 802D.
2. Upgrade to the HTM1D
3. Upgrade to the HTM2D

Darrell, or anyone else, what has your experience been finding the right center for the 802D. I know Kal is using a third 802D in the middle. I have a screen...so that will not work for me. If I can get away with keeping the HTM1, I'd like to stop the bleeding but not if it will sacrifice cohesion in the front soundstaging.

[RebelMan]

Gremal, based on my experience with the HTM3S (which is an improved version of the HTM1 from the previous generation) you will suffer cohesion, and considerably with regard to the 802D. Frankly, the HTM2D won't be much better either. There is significant disparity between my 800D and the HTM3S, which I had hoped would be good enough to get by. Unfortunately, it isn't and it pales in comparison to the phantom center that I am running with now. If you do much off axis listening then you really need to consider the HTM1D instead of keeping what you have or getting the HTM2D. Either non-Marlan headed center will still "work" but not seamlessly. I suggest that you try experimenting with a phantom center first (with the 802D when you get them) and you'll immediately hear what I am saying.

[dmccombs]

Rebelman,

I recently upgraded to 802Ds up front and have been using my HTM3S as a Center. I knew going into this upgrade I may have to upgrade my Center to an HTM2D, but I never considered going with a Phantom Center.

I am giving the the Phantom Center a test now as most of my critical listening is on axis. In my preliminary listening I would say that a Phantom Center is better than using the HTM3S if you consider the quality of the Center output only. The voices sound more accurate. Using the HTM3S provides a more 3-D sound though.

I am torn about the results as I use the Center Channel when I listen to multichannel sources and want the 3-D sound.

Obviously upgrading to an HTM1D would be the best solution. But which is better between using a HTM2D Center or a Phantom Center? The voices would be a little more accurate, yet we would still have the 3-D sound.

Many Thanks for this revelation. The Phantom Center is definetly worthy of consideration and testing.

[yannparis]

I also use a phantom center with my 802Ds. In the past, mixing 803N and HTM1 was not a good solution.

A central must give the same sound that the side ones. It is easy to control that. I have replaced a 803 ( same location) by the HTM1 and listened !

Listening to new HTMxx gives -relatively- poor result for the price compared to phantom mode.. You do not have the same enclosure nor the same speaker locations. The good solution is to use the same speaker and/or electronic acoustic fields correction with a system like the French Trinnov Optimizer

The central is required if you need a broad listening zone. In this case, it fixes the dialogues on the image for left and right side listeners.

Regards

Yann

[seavib]

802D vs. 803D + center

I can buy 1) a pair of 802Ds or 2) a pair of 803Ds and a center channel for my TV system. I also will buy a Classe SSP-600 to go with my existing Proceed HPA3.

Which combo is better?

[dmccombs]

Seavib,

I would say if you listen to music more than movies get the 802d. If you are more into movies, get the 803D and matching center (HTM2D).

Regards,
Darrell