803D vs 802

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • beden1
    Super Senior Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 1676

    #46
    When I was switching the amps, I listened to the same CD. With the CAV-150, I was listening at 64 db. When I switched to the CAM-350, the music presented with a fuller body, and actually sounded louder at 54 db through the same CP-500 and Sony CD player. This impression has not changed now after nearly three weeks, and with any of the CD's I've listened to. It's also virtually the same with watching movies, cable or listening to the iPod. The sound is noticeably fuller bodied and more defined than before, particularly in the mids and highs. The only other change I made was to use twisted 10 guage wire with locking banana plugs, and replacing the middle level quality Transparent Cables.

    Playing semantics and using complex nomenclature is also a means of tricking one's brain. I prefer to keep it simple, and simply stated . . . I hear what I hear. Maybe I've discovered a new science - the science of listening in the real world! :B

    Oh, and I forgot to mention . . . why was the dealer not surprised by my impressions (he did not sell me the CAM-350's)? He responded like it was a natural phenomenon.

    Comment

    • RebelMan
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 3139

      #47
      How did you determine the SPL to be 64dB? That's pretty low even for my standards. You must have supersubsonic hearing if you had to drop the volume to 54dB when you switched the amplifiers. Superimposing these figures against an equal loudness curve suggests that you have bionic hearing. (Just kidding Brooks. )

      I suspect you plucked that number off the LCD display which you cannot do. 64dB on the LCD display is measured to be approximately 84dB at 12 feet. If you were any closer then the number would be higher. 84dB is getting pretty loud (85dB is the OSHA threshold for loudness) so I can understand that you would back it off by 10dB assuming you were 12 feet or closer.

      I can't explain completely why you felt that the 350s with a 10dB deficit sounded just as loud as the 150, assuming you were using the same speakers (803Ds), the same front end (CP-500) and the same interconnects. The only way this could have happened is if the 150 was connected with single-ended connections and the 350 using balanced and having an output gain of +3dB. I cannot confirm the latter (though Glen B states they are the same - 29dB) nor can I confirm that you were using the same type of connections, but I take your word for it that they were. Still, I find your assessment dumbfounding. A wise man once said that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. The truth is something about the evaluation process was amiss.

      A speaker with a 90dB sensitivity rating driven with 1w from a 150w amplifier at 1m will have identical SPL of 90dB if driven with 1w from a 350w amplifier at the same distance. The relationship between raw power and sound quality is not directly proportional. It is constant provided that an amplifier does not exceed its limits. However, sound quality can vary between various manufactures implementations of amplification and it can vary within a given manufacturer among their different architectures.

      The characteristics you are describing between the CAV-150 and CAM-350 have nothing to do with power. And to describe them as night and day difference is extreme (unless one of the three conditions I mentioned earlier applies). I can tell you first hand that the differences will be subtle if the evaluation was conducted under a carefully controlled environment. Remember, people often associate loudness with sound quality which is a folly thing to do. Yet, I believe you when you say you found the CAM-350s to be fuller bodied and more defined. The CA-M400s do the same for me when I compared them to the CA-2200. But it was subtle and had nothing to do with raw power nor SPL deltas (which can be very misleading).
      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

      Comment

      • beden1
        Super Senior Member
        • Oct 2006
        • 1676

        #48
        RebelMan,

        I understand what you are saying, and if that is the given science, then I'm sure it's the way it is. But, I am continuing to notice a marked (yes, very clear) difference in the sound quality that is now being reproduced. I sat back after fishing today and had another listen. I guess the best way to describe the difference (now in my memory of how the CAV-150 sounded with the 803D's), is that everything now seems clearer and more focused with the CAM-350s. The highs and mids are more pronounced, in a clearer/stronger way - not in a brighter/harsh way. I can't speak for the bass as I was listening with my subs on through the receiver this time.

        The only thing that I changed when I changed the amps were the speaker wires. I made up 10 guage and replaced my Transparent Cables (not sure of their wire guage). Beforehand, the CAV-150 also had balanced connections through the CP-500, so this is the same. I seem to remember Classe saying their balanced connections have a 6db gain over the single connections.

        This is what I'm noticing now with my center speaker (single connection) compared to the 803Ds (balanced connections). I have the HTM2D bi-amped through the CAV-150 (2 channels x 150 watts). Even though the power is close to one another, the 803Ds are also overpowering the HTM2D due to the difference in gain. I expected this and thus the reason for my interest in a new pre-pro like the SSP-800 that offers more balanced outs.

        And, this is another way of describing what I have been hearing . . . it's like the difference of the way my 803D's now sound as compared to the HTM2D, the difference is at least like 6db. This number is not measured, as I'm just using it as an example.

        Comment

        • RebelMan
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Mar 2005
          • 3139

          #49
          Balanced connections have a 6dB lower noise floor compared to single-ended connections. Coupled with a 3dB gain on the CAM-350 (if it were 3dB higher than the CAV-150) would almost make up the 10dB difference you are claiming. This would make sense but according to you it's not the case which is very strange. Still it would be more helpful if you actually took measurements rather than guess.

          Assuming that everything you observed were true to the extend that you stated, there is one more possibility for the large discrepancy between the two amplifiers. The CAV-150 is an old amplier (older than the CAM-350). If I recall you purchased it secondhand. It's possible that it may have gone through several exchanges too. The amplifier may fallen out of specification or something may be wrong with it like a worn out part.

          Has it been dropped? Do you know if the amplifier had to be repaired at some point in it's life? Did you or the previous owner(s) ever send it in for a health check? Of course I am reaching here but it's not unlikely to happen and it could possibly explain the idiosyncrasies. Something must be up because this just doesn't make any sense. Some of the worse amplifiers I have heard were not nearly as bad as you are implying that the CAV-150 is (again assuming the evaluation was done correctly, which I still have my doubts). :W
          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

          Comment

          • beden1
            Super Senior Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 1676

            #50
            RebelMan,

            The CAV-150 is used and I'm not sure how old it is, but I bought it on Audiogon from a Classe Dealer who said they had just sent it to Classe service to make sure it was in proper working order (could have been BS, but the amp looks like new condition on the outside at least). I've been using it for over two years now. I do have it scheduled to go in for service, as when I was hooking up the CAM-350's and switching the center and surrounds over on the CAV-150, I accidentally hit the switch from single to balanced (I didn't unplug the amp - my bad) and the amp developed a fault in one of the main channels. I also mentioned to the dealer my issue with the Transparent cables with this amp. When I turned it off, the speakers sounded like a fireworks rocket shooting into the sky. He said that the capacitors (if memory serves me correctly) need to be replaced. So, it will get a total going over at Classe's Buffalo, NY service facility.

            But, the amp sounded, and continues to sound very good. The difference using this amp over using the supposedly 130 per channel amps in the Pioneer Elite receiver . . . is a classic Classe sound over the too bright and in your face sound of the Pioneer.

            It may be that the amp is not up to snuff, but why then would the dealer say he was not surprised when I told him the difference I heard with the CAM-350's? (and before I told him the CAV-150 needed service). I will ask him again about this when I bring in the amp for service.

            The only thing that I wish I had done before hooking up the CAM-350's, was to bi-amp the CAV-150 with the 803Ds using the balanced connections from the CP-500, so I could hear that sound again for comparison sake. For the past six months, the 803D's had just been connected straight (one channel per speaker), as I was also connecting the 703s for surrounds and the HTM1 (bi-amped). These speakers sounded great with the Classe amp over the Pioneer Elite.

            Currently with the HTM2D bi-amped using the CAV-150 however, the difference is what I listed beforehand . . . it is very noticeable, and as I also said, some of this may be due to the difference in balanced versus single connections?

            Comment

            • beden1
              Super Senior Member
              • Oct 2006
              • 1676

              #51
              I was just looking for an email I had from Classe last year when I was getting the CP-500, and unfortunately I must have saved it on another computer. Essentially, our discussions led to a comment they made (that I believe I remember correctly), that there is a 6 db gain in using the balanced connections over the single. I was asking about wanting to bi-amp my 803D's through the CP-500, and found out I could not because the CP-500 only has one set of balanced connections. They said the difference in the gain between the two connections would be noticeable (if I were to use the balanced connections for the bass, and the single connections for the mids/highs for example). You may want to check with them, or I will again this week. But, whatever the gain between the two connections, I did not get a sense beforehand that there was such a noticeable difference as I am hearing now.

              Comment

              • RebelMan
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 3139

                #52
                Originally posted by beden1
                So, it will get a total going over at Classe's Buffalo, NY service facility.
                It will be interesting to see what they find. Keep us posted.

                It may be that the amp is not up to snuff, but why then would the dealer say he was not surprised when I told him the difference I heard with the CAM-350's? (and before I told him the CAV-150 needed service).
                I don't know. I do know that he'd have to backup his remarks with objective evidence if I were present. Generally speaking if you can hear it then you should be able to measure it.

                The only thing that I wish I had done before hooking up the CAM-350's, was to bi-amp the CAV-150 with the 803Ds using the balanced connections from the CP-500, so I could hear that sound again for comparison sake. For the past six months, the 803D's had just been connected straight (one channel per speaker), as I was also connecting the 703s for surrounds and the HTM1 (bi-amped). These speakers sounded great with the Classe amp over the Pioneer Elite.
                It would make no difference, all else being equal.

                Currently with the HTM2D bi-amped using the CAV-150 however, the difference is what I listed beforehand . . . it is very noticeable, and as I also said, some of this may be due to the difference in balanced versus single connections?
                You can't compare the two because more than one variable changes.
                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                Comment

                • RebelMan
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 3139

                  #53
                  Originally posted by beden1
                  Essentially, our discussions led to a comment they made (that I believe I remember correctly), that there is a 6 db gain in using the balanced connections over the single. I was asking about wanting to bi-amp my 803D's through the CP-500, and found out I could not because the CP-500 only has one set of balanced connections. They said the difference in the gain between the two connections would be noticeable (if I were to use the balanced connections for the bass, and the single connections for the mids/highs for example).
                  What Classe' told you is essentially true. Balanced connections offer a 6dB lower noise floor which translates into a gain of 6dB output. In practice you wouldn't drive your speakers 6dB higher then the SPL you normally listen to but you could. I typically listen between 74 and 76 dB whether I use single-ended or balanced connections. The trouble with volume controls is that they don't take into account which connection types the user is using. It becomes easy to mistaken the (6dB) difference as an improvement because the typical listener will likely pick their usual setting on the dial and (falsely) experience a revelation in sound quality. That's why a trusty SPL meter (or more sophisticated apparatus) should be used to normalize levels when critically listening for (incremental) changes made to a system.
                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                  Comment

                  • Srrndhound
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 446

                    #54
                    Originally posted by RebelMan
                    What Classe' told you is essentially true. Balanced connections offer a 6dB lower noise floor which translates into a gain of 6dB output.
                    Just a minor comment. Balanced connections offer 6 dB more gain, but the S/N at the output is the same, assumng the noise is from the differential input stage of the amp. If the noise is dominated by the preamp, the S/N could reduce by up to 3 dB, since the noise on each polarity of the signal is uncorrelated (two random noise signals added = 3 dB), whereas the audio signal is identical (2x an audio signal = 6 dB).

                    Comment

                    • Orb
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 147

                      #55
                      I have to agree with Beden, I can notice differences between amps and this has nothing to do with loudness.
                      One aspect is hearing breakup of the music on some songs that are more to do with where they occur - high crossover combined with the voice and instrument involved.
                      Another aspect I can hear differerences with is how some albums seem as if they were poor recordings with grain, with another amp you seem to hear more detail and the grain is gone.
                      Another example is on some amps some recordings may be unplayable, a good example for me is Goldfrapp Seventh Tree.
                      On a very good solid state amp that is very detailed and fast, all of the above examples are resolved.

                      And the very last point, some amps just do not seem to bring the music to life through the speakers, even on say CM2 bookshelf, and yet the amp that I have best results with can be played very quiet and be far superior.

                      Just my experience, but I accept audio is rather quirky and each persons experience does not mean it is true for everyone

                      Cheers
                      Orb

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      😀
                      😂
                      🥰
                      😘
                      🤢
                      😎
                      😞
                      😡
                      👍
                      👎
                      Searching...Please wait.
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                      There are no results that meet this criteria.
                      Search Result for "|||"