803D vs 802

[hoisty]

Hello

Would much appreciate advice on the following:

Should I buy:
1) 803D's
2) 802s (2 or 3 years old - not the D version).

What say yee?

I will run these with the following Naim kit:

CDS2 (with XPS)
52 preamp (with Supercap)
135 mono blocks

Many thanks for opinions. For your info my room size is 4m x 5m but with knock through to kitchen of size 4m x 7m

[Kobus]

Hi

There is no 802S. What you are refering to is the "older" Nautilus 802.

I have not listened to both, so I can not give an opinion but I might choose the new 803D.

Kobus

[RobP]

If I had the choice between the two I would go with the 803D's,when paired up with the right power and source, they sound wonderful, much better than the N802's.

[chinets]

I don't know, but if I had to choose ,I would go with the 802 over the 803D. Now if you said 802D and N802 ,then for sure 802D, but with 802 Vs 803D ,that is a very close call ,and I am afraid to say that the 802 will be a better bargain ,and you'll get more bang out of your buck that you will be paying ,as the 802 are discontinued, cheaper I believe, and they sound amazing. :T

I have auditioned both ,and they both sound great, but the N802 will have a nicer sounding bass and the sound will fill up your room beautifully and I bet it would be cheaper than the 803D. :roll:

Audition both is your best bet, and see how much dough you are willing to cough up! Your ears will make that decision for you ,plus the budget.

Cheers and keep us posted

[Maverick71]

If I had the choice between the two I would go with the 803D's,when paired up with the right power and source, they sound wonderful, much better than the N802's.

Hi Soundgravy.
What would you consider a "right power" for the 803D (earthly prices, please )?

Cheers,

Mav

[VictorHRS]

Very close call.... But I would go with the N802 because of the looks and that it's probably cheaper right now. I had the N803, N802 and now I have the 802D. All very fine speakers, but sometimes I wish I had stayed with the N803 and tammed my upgraditis :roll: ...

[style]

Hi,


Personaly: buy 803D --> in Black :T


This is my chioce

Style

[yourtoys7]

N802 for me :>,
Better price and they do look sooo much better. I love the 802 look, but for your years to deside and if looks matter! hmmm!

Let us know what you choose.

[RobP]

Hi Soundgravy.
What would you consider a "right power" for the 803D (earthly prices, please )?

Cheers,

Mav

Mav, I would consider at least 200 watts per channel of quality power with these speakers, 300w would be better. That goes with either choice of speaker you go with. What type of budget have you set for the amplifier?

[sikoniko]

This recently came up on AVS.

I have heard both models and will say that it depends on what you are looking for, because they both have their strengths.

If you plan on upgrading to the 802d in the next year, I say go for the 803d, as you will probably lose trade-in value with the 802N.

Now, my thoughts:

The 803d is more detailed, but still has the qualities of a box speaker. The 802N, and all of the speakers with the marlan heads, have more presence, sound stage, depth and imaging. You will get a more 3d sound with the 802N.

Here is a neat thing that I have found with the 802's, that I have not heard with any of the models below. With the 803d's, stand in the listening spot, while listening to your music, and walk forward. notice where the imaging starts to break up. Now do the same with the 802's and up.

You will find that with the 802's, you can stand perfectly between the speakers and they will retain the imaging and soundstage qualities.

[See-Fu]

This recently came up on AVS.

I have heard both models and will say that it depends on what you are looking for, because they both have their strengths.

If you plan on upgrading to the 802d in the next year, I say go for the 803d, as you will probably lose trade-in value with the 802N.

Now, my thoughts:

The 803d is more detailed, but still has the qualities of a box speaker. The 802N, and all of the speakers with the marlan heads, have more presence, sound stage, depth and imaging. You will get a more 3d sound with the 802N.

Here is a neat thing that I have found with the 802's, that I have not heard with any of the models below. With the 803d's, stand in the listening spot, while listening to your music, and walk forward. notice where the imaging starts to break up. Now do the same with the 802's and up.

You will find that with the 802's, you can stand perfectly between the speakers and they will retain the imaging and soundstage qualities.

I would think the 802's would lose less value since its already depreciated some whereas the 803's would not have depreciated as much. Kind of like buying a new car or used car. You will take more of a trade in loss with the new car cause there's more to depreicate.

[sikoniko]

I would think the 802's would lose less value since its already depreciated some whereas the 803's would not have depreciated as much. Kind of like buying a new car or used car. You will take more of a trade in loss with the new car cause there's more to depreicate.

It depends on whether the dealer wants to sell previous generation products. Mine does not.

[See-Fu]

there's always a market for used speakers. just put it on audiogon

[worldys]

there is something marvelously appealing about those marlan heads, although detail is reported to be better with the diamond tweeters (and the 802Ds i listened to in the showroom were phenomenal), i would personally go with the 802N

in terms of value, i wouldn't be suprised if the price you buy a pair of 802N today will be virtually the price you can sell it for several years from now, same will not be true for the 803D

just my two cents, but i must admit my bias since i have a pair of 802N and love them

[Angioguy]

If space is a consideration, the smaller footprint of the 803D may suit you better; otherwise, I concur with Chinets, audition the two.

[rompower]

Save your money and go for the 802D! I had pair of 803D and just purchased a pair of 802D... received them today and.. simply.. WOW! AMAZING! eheh can't even describe the feeling I had when I pressed the play button :P

[beden1]

Save your money and go for the 802D! I had pair of 803D and just purchased a pair of 802D... received them today and.. simply.. WOW! AMAZING! eheh can't even describe the feeling I had when I pressed the play button :P

If you're still using your 5100 to power your speakers, your first thought was probably that you needed to run out and get a pair of CAM-400's to properly power those 802D's.

[rompower]

not even using the ca-5100 for now... (waiting to move in my new house)
Running the 802d with Arcam FmJ A32 and CD-36. and sound fantastic! just anxious to put some greater gear on those BIG babes! hihi

But... with the A32.. i have to put higher volume to get a good listening.. for now, at low volume it's like it's missing a little something.. dunno if the 200w amp will change anything?

[rompower]

Forgot.. i have to mention that my actual listening room isn't the ideal.. I had to put the A/C in the window so there's always sounds that are coming from outside :|
So anxious to move out eheheh

[wettou]

If you're still using your 5100 to power your speakers, your first thought was probably that you needed to run out and get a pair of CAM-400's to properly power those 802D's.

The dB is a unit of measure for sound intensity or level. It is a logarithmic scale developed to express wide ranging quantities on a simple scale. Because it is logarithmic, it can be a little bit confusing. As an example, a doubling of volume is not equal to twice the number of dB.

Yes the more power the better but let's not forget that to double the db the power needs to be multiplied by 10.

So if you have a 100W amplifier you would need 1000W to get double db level.

Power: (in this discussion), refers to watts. Power defined is the rate at which energy is converted or dissipated, as in the case of an amplifier driving a loudspeaker. It is important in our discussion in defining the general relationship.

A simple chart will help to understand the relationship of the terms we have introduced:

dB Change Voltage multiplier Power multiplier Loudness multiplier 3 1.4 2 1.23 6 2 4 1.52 10 3.16 10 2 20 10 100 4 40 100 1000 16

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

[beden1]

The dB is a unit of measure for sound intensity or level. It is a logarithmic scale developed to express wide ranging quantities on a simple scale. Because it is logarithmic, it can be a little bit confusing. As an example, a doubling of volume is not equal to twice the number of dB.

Yes the more power the better but let's not forget that to double the db the power needs to be multiplied by 10.

So if you have a 100W amplifier you would need 1000W to get double db level.

Power: (in this discussion), refers to watts. Power defined is the rate at which energy is converted or dissipated, as in the case of an amplifier driving a loudspeaker. It is important in our discussion in defining the general relationship.

A simple chart will help to understand the relationship of the terms we have introduced:

dB Change Voltage multiplier Power multiplier Loudness multiplier 3 1.4 2 1.23 6 2 4 1.52 10 3.16 10 2 20 10 100 4 40 100 1000 16

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

I've read this piece from your previous posts. Good science, but in real world
listening, it is lacking in credence. I spent a long demo session at a B&W/Classe/McIntosh dealer in SE Florida that had one of the best listening rooms acoustically I have ever heard.

I was there listening to the 800D's with the CAM-400's. They sounded excellent (much better than demos I had at other dealer listening rooms). I asked if whether they really could need more power (like two CAM-400s bi-amped) to have them perform closer to their peak. The answer was yes, do to the large amount of amperage needed to move the massive Rohacell drivers. He demonstrated the mass of the bass speakers and they are thick and heavy. They had previously hooked up a pair of McIntosh MC1.2KW power amplifiers, that produces a massive 1,200 watts. He said that the 800D's really woke up and loved the added power.

Prior to my demo, I had hooked up my CAM-350's to my 803D's and had immediately noticed the difference like getting hit in the face. The 150 watts previously delivered by my Classe CAV-150 was not even close.

That's why I am saying to be prepared to invest in high powered quality amps if you want to get involved with any of the B&W diamond series speakers.

[dmccombs]

Beden,

You know we could prove this out if you would send me your CAM-350s. I could use them with my CAM-350s to bi-amp my 802Ds. This would be a great test. PM me, and I will send give you my mailing address. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Darrell

[beden1]

Beden,

You know we could prove this out if you would send me your CAM-350s. I could use them with my CAM-350s to bi-amp my 802Ds. This would be a great test. PM me, and I will send give you my mailing address. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Darrell

Actually Darrell, I was thinking you should send me one of your CAM-350's for my new HTM2D center channel speaker. Then, you could use your remaining two CAM-350's in a bi-amp setup for the mids and highs of your 802D's, and get two CAM-400's for the bass drivers. Then, get another CAM-400 for your HTM2D center. That would be a killer setup, and it sounds like a good plan to me! :T

[dmccombs]

Beden,

That is a great plan except I don't think the CAM-350 and CAM-400s have the same gain. So, I don't think they could be mixed for bi-amping.

So, how are you liking the 350s?

Darrell

[beden1]

Beden,

That is a great plan except I don't think the CAM-350 and CAM-400s have the same gain. So, I don't think they could be mixed for bi-amping.

So, how are you liking the 350s?

Darrell

I absolutely love them. They make my 803D's sound like much better speakers, and by a large margin over what I was hearing before. I'm also surprised how they are only slightly warm to the touch on their heat sinks. I will be on the look out for another one in the future for my center (hint-hint), once I figure out how to position it in my setup.

Actually though, I don't want to give up on my CAV-150 just yet. Unfortunately, my receiver does not have balanced outs, so the gain is different in the center. That's why I'm looking forward to your impressions of the SSP-800 versus your Denon receiver.

Brooks

[Glen B]

Beden,

That is a great plan except I don't think the CAM-350 and CAM-400s have the same gain. So, I don't think they could be mixed for bi-amping.

So, how are you liking the 350s?

Darrell

All Classé amps, Omega, Delta and legacy models alike have gain of 29 dB. :T

[rompower]

beden, there's an update path and.. I bough a lot of gear recently (ca-51,ssp-8,802d,denon br player,htm2d,etc) so the cam-400 or ca-2200 will wait a little bit ! eheh

But ..the main point of my post here was just.. 802 are amazing even when "under powered" So I'll be simply amaze when i'll get higher amp

[wettou]

beden, there's an update path and.. I bough a lot of gear recently (ca-51,ssp-8,802d,denon br player,htm2d,etc) so the cam-400 or ca-2200 will wait a little bit ! eheh But ..the main point of my post here was just.. 802 are amazing even when "under powered" So I'll be simply amaze when i'll get higher amp

Good for you rompower, one step at a time, maybe Beden could finance us so we power our 802D speakers with CAM-400

[rompower]

LoL! why not
Beden, can you send us some money over paypal ? like.. let's say.. 100k ? :P I'll pay you back

[beden1]

LoL! why not
Beden, can you send us some money over paypal ? like.. let's say.. 100k ? :P I'll pay you back

I'm not trying to spend anyone's money. In fact, I'm trying to save you some. Before getting into the B&W diamond Series speakers, you also need to budget for the added investment of proper power.

[beden1]

Good for you rompower, one step at a time, maybe Beden could finance us so we power our 802D speakers with CAM-400

You should have budgeted for that beforehand!

[dmccombs]

Good for you rompower, one step at a time, maybe Beden could finance us so we power our 802D speakers with CAM-400

Wettou,

Don't you already have 800Ds and CAM-400s for all 5 speakers? Since that is your standard recommendation for everyone, I just assumed, that you had that yourself.

Darrell

[dmccombs]

All Classé amps, Omega, Delta and legacy models alike have gain of 29 dB. :T

So you can bi-amp with any 2 Classse amps? Can you mix like an 350wpc amp for the high, with a 400wpc amp for the lows, since they are the same gain?

For a couple days, I will have CAM-350s and CAM-400s in the house. :nos:

Darrell

[DM3000 Owner]

So you can bi-amp with any 2 Classse amps? Can you mix like an 350wpc amp for the high, with a 400wpc amp for the lows, since they are the same gain?

For a couple days, I will have CAM-350s and CAM-400s in the house. :nos:

Darrell

When were the CAN 350's made? I really like the look of the previous generation Classe grear compared to the new ones (same for Levinson - the last generation had a more industrial look).

[dmccombs]

When were the CAM 350's made? I really like the look of the previous generation Classe gear compared to the new ones (same for Levinson - the last generation had a more industrial look).

I think these were made from 2000 - 2005.

The looks are good, and I think they sound even better. They are a great match for the 800 series speakers.

[wettou]

Wettou, Don't you already have 800Ds and CAM-400s for all 5 speakers? Since that is your standard recommendation for everyone, I just assumed, that you had that yourself. Darrell

Darrell

Nope only 3 802D, 2 802N, 2 803 and Classé CA-5200 and may be Classé SSP-800 after the new codec or the Denon AVP.

In ten years I might revamp the hole thing :lol:

[Glen B]

So you can bi-amp with any 2 Classé amps?

In theory yes. I've been tempted to try such a combo but just never got around to it (yet).

[dmccombs]

Darrell

Nope only 3 802D, 2 802N, 2 803 and Classé CA-5200 and may be Classé SSP-800 after the new codec or the Denon AVP.

In ten years I might revamp the hole thing :lol:

Hey, Nice Setup... I hear the CA-5200 drives the 802Ds very well.

[dmccombs]

In theory yes. I've been tempted to try such a combo but just never got around to it (yet).

I saw a previous post where Rebelman said passive bi-amping doesn't help too much. I am hoping he is right. I don't want to be tempted to keep any of the CAM-350s due to space reasons.

I plan to take one evening and try the bi-amping out. I just gotta try 700+wpc (CAM-400 + CAM-350) on the 802Ds. :B

Do you think I should use the CAM-400 for the low or highs?

Darrell

[RebelMan]

I asked if whether they really could need more power (like two CAM-400s bi-amped) to have them perform closer to their peak. The answer was yes, do to the large amount of amperage needed to move the massive Rohacell drivers. He demonstrated the mass of the bass speakers and they are thick and heavy. They had previously hooked up a pair of McIntosh MC1.2KW power amplifiers, that produces a massive 1,200 watts. He said that the 800D's really woke up and loved the added power.

The 800D will perform at its peak with any of the Classe' amplifiers driven within their rated specifications. The 800D do not need to be bi-amped or driven with high wattage for sonic quality but it would need increasingly more power for increasingly higher SPL's.

[sikoniko]

I'd imagine the need for extra power would be proportionate to the room and what you are looking to achieve. there cerainly isn't a case when considering roi.

[beden1]

The 800D will perform at its peak with any of the Classe' amplifiers driven within their rated specifications. The 800D do not need to be bi-amped or driven with high wattage for sonic quality but it would need increasingly more power for increasingly higher SPL's.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, but, I have a hard time imagining powering the 800D's with a 5100 or 2200! I would think this is a complete waste of this great speaker.

I am going back to the dealer next week to try and have him set up the 800D's with the large McIntosh amps to hear the difference, if any, from the CAM-400. We were discussing the fullness of sound produced even at lower volumes, and whether the 800D's could benefit from more power. His answer was yes, and he explained why. And, since I asked him during a frank conversation that we were having, it was not as if he was trying to sell me something, as I was just there to pick up my HTM2D. While waiting, I had ventured into their high end demo room and sat down for a listen.

The 800D's sounded excellent in their room.

Have you tried yours with more power?

[RebelMan]

We are naturally adapted, falsely, to linking sound quality with loudness and the distinction is made possible from as little as 1dB delta. It is for this reason that critical auditions be leveled (to within .1dB if possible) before commencing. If the dealer or the listener is not doing this then the results will be flawed as will the impressions. Furthermore, comparisons would need to be conducted at the same volume settings and using the same familiar media (as the dynamics can vary here too) across the various amplifiers under evaluation.

Do you know what the average SPL's were during the demo? How far back from the speakers was the listening spot? With this information I can illustrate mathematically that any changes to sonic quality that could be observed between Classe' Delta amplifiers (in terms of power differences) would be largely dependent on exceeding the amplifier's rated capabilities. Any observation that concluded sound quality improves with a higher powered amplifier would be incorrect. Rather it's the lower powered amplifier impairing the signal because of higher SPLs exceeding its established parameters.

Practically speaking, my 800D peak well with either the CA-5100 or CA-M400 that I have. However, I have learned to respect what each is capable of and know when limits (on myself) need be placed. At 76dB+dynamic swings the 100w CA-5100 performs admirably.

[beden1]

I'm just going to speak in terms of what my ears actually hear. I went to the dealer to pick up my new center channel speaker several days after I had the opportunity of listening to the CAM-350's (mono 350 watts) that I connected to my 803Ds through the same balanced connections from my CP-500 pre-amp.

At the same volume setting on the CP-500, I noticed a large difference between what I had become used to hearing with my 803Ds powered by my CAV-150 (one channel per speaker equals 150 watts). This amp had been referred to as an excellent amp by two dealers and by Classe.

To equal the low moderate sound volume that I had been used to, I had to lower the CP-500 volume at least 10 db with the CAM-350's. Then, I still heard much more fullness in the music than before, and the mids and highs were now amazingly present. The difference was literally like night and day.

That's what I commented about to the dealer, and how we got on the subject of what do the 800Ds actually need in terms of power to let them perform at their peak . . . not loudness - fullness of sound at any volume. This was the first time that I had listened to the 800Ds in his audition room, and we were not doing any comparisons . . . just chatting and listening.

If you're saying that math does not equate with what I have experienced, then I guess math isn't the answer. I noticed the marked difference comparing a sound that I have become used to now for two years of listening to off and on when I'm here..

[RebelMan]

Trusting your ears is always the right thing to do but what you notice only pertains to your situation. The question is, how can your feedback be helpful to others if the statements go unqualified? Many people have been led to believe that amplifier A is better than amplifier B because it has more power only to regret the expenditure they make later as they come to find out differently. To say that the 800D needs lots of power to perform at it's peak is untrue. To say that the 800D needs lots of power to perform at its peak at high SPL's would be true.

So how do you qualify what you have observed? There are several components that need to be mentioned and one key variable is SPL. How do you know the SPL's were the same each time you made amplifier comparisons if you didn't measure them? You need to know this so that you can rule out psychoacoustics. I've already said that it's good business to trust your ears BUT you can't trust your brain! It will play tricks on you and I have seen this happen to many good listeners.

You also say you used the same volume level in each case but did you also use the same media too? I am aware that many people like to listen at near references volumes (90dB+) either because they have to or because they want to which will eventually lead to having to if they are not careful. I prefer to stay below 82dB but on occasion I'll push the envelope. With my CA-M400s I have the extra headroom and can afford it without worry of clipping them or my speakers. But I don't need 400 watts of Classe' power to enjoy them at the levels I typically listen.

I have no objections to you finding the CAM-350s to sound better than the CAV-150 but it is incorrect to state that the 350s sound better than the 150 because it can deliver more power. It's more likely that the improvements you hear are due to the system's architecture although I am inclined to question that too. Are there going to be sonic differences between them? Yes absolutely. Will they be audible? Perhaps, but to very subtle degrees at best. Any claims that are farther reaching than this will be based on a poorly executed analysis OR exceeding the design specifications of the amplifier OR psychoacoustics. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

Always trust your ears but always question your brain.