Is there a measured benefit to biwiring?

[Jesse111]

I biwire because it just seems more efficient but in a blind test I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference. I will continue to do it if for no other reason than for the additonal gauge "benefit" and it's just good fun. But I also don't use extrememly expensive cables and they are also very short, only 6 feet.

[Music4Life]

I biwire because it just seems more efficient but in a blind test I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference. I will continue to do it if for no other reason than for the additonal gauge "benefit" and it's just good fun. But I also don't use extrememly expensive cables and they are also very short, only 6 feet.

Unless you have a very very sensitive ears (other said "Golden Ear"), you can't hear any obvious differences. I spoke to a Hi-Fi shop keeper with lots of experience, he said honestly, there will be NO difference (bi-wire) if you use a single amp. If you use a power amp on each speaker (mono) and bi-wire them then the difference will be noticeable. He said a good single wire will do the job with a single amp. Unless you want to "Buy-wire".

[jim777]

The shorter the cable, the less benefit you will have. With a good sized 6 feet cable, biwiring won't give a huge advantage. But if you already have the wire, go ahead

You must also maintain at least a small distance between the two runs of wires, or the biwiring gain will be half lost..

Measureable? maybe. Sure not easy. But imagine if the bass speaker has non-linearities that generate harmonics, biwiring gives them a chance to be damped by the amp instead of going strait into your mids and tweeter. I'm not sure, but I think that's the idea!

[Kal Rubinson]

Until someone actually measures a difference in terms that relate to audibility, it is unmeasureable under normal domestic conditions. If you use two amps, it is not bi-wiring but bi-amping and, even that, has debatable advantages.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

But imagine if the bass speaker has non-linearities that generate harmonics, biwiring gives them a chance to be damped by the amp instead of going strait into your mids and tweeter. I'm not sure, but I think that's the idea!

I can imagine it but the impedance on the return leg to the amp is still massively lower than that into another filter/crossover. Speculation.

Kal

[jim777]

Yes Kal, I agree. Good point. As you say, I was speculating.

I never tried biwiring so I guess I'm not a huge fan either.

On the other hand, I don't see why someone would avoid it if he already has the wire

[Music4Life]

On the other hand, I don't see why someone would avoid it if he already has the wire

...because they were fooled to "buy-wire" .

[Karma]

HI All,
As far as I know an advantage has never been measured. Some would say that an advantage has never been heard. Intellectually, an advantage in theory has never been proved.

That said, I have taken the most rational route. All my speakers in both systems are biwired. What else could a dues paying audiophile do?

(I do think biwiring sounds better in some circumstances. Since I design and build my own cables, expense is not an issue, only time.)

Sparky

[Jesse111]

I'm not sure I would say I've been fooled into "buywire" but I will admit that eventhough I had my doubts, I went with biwire just for the fun of it. The added gauge seemed at the very least to elimate any question of undergauging. I think many of us just enjoy playing around with things like that. I'm not sure my balanced power from Equitech or if the spikes on my ampstands could ever be detected by me in an A/B. But it's cool to look at that really neet stuff in my system and it's fun to have. It's a hobby that has some very serious matters to consider and also some fun stuff to play with. Great hobby.

[WI Rotel]

There are no advantages to biwiring or bi amping. Biamping simply lets you pump more power to a speaker. By isolating the woofer from the rest of the circuitry you can feed it a lot more power and use it as a pseudo sub. As you must have noticed most subs have superbly powerful amps ranging from the hundreds to over 1K watts. Of course, those figures are not RMS they are dynamic wattage but they are way beyond what other speaker components can handle. Since most people use subs anyway thus, bi- amping in most applications serves no purpose at all.

[RobP]

By isolating the woofer from the rest of the circuitry you can feed it a lot more power and use it as a pseudo sub.

Could you please explain how this one works here? :scratchhead:

[Jesse111]

There are no advantages to biwiring or bi amping. Biamping simply lets you pump more power to a speaker. By isolating the woofer from the rest of the circuitry you can feed it a lot more power and use it as a pseudo sub. As you must have noticed most subs have superbly powerful amps ranging from the hundreds to over 1K watts. Of course, those figures are not RMS they are dynamic wattage but they are way beyond what other speaker components can handle. Since most people use subs anyway thus, bi- amping in most applications serves no purpose at all.

That does bring up a question in my mind regarding the 800Ds with a pair of 500 watt monos. Perhaps Kal can chime in on this. Since the 800D's are rated up to 1000 watts, does it seem reasonble that bi-amping them with two 500 what monos per channel might produce superior bass?

Would the overall increase in current improve anything at all in the medium volume range or would perhaps any benefit only be realized in high volume listening? I know Kal your not a big fan of passive bi-amping but I'm talking about this particular case where the speaker rate max is 1000 watt and the amp is 500.
Thanks.

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes Kal, I agree. Good point. As you say, I was speculating.
I never tried biwiring so I guess I'm not a huge fan either.
On the other hand, I don't see why someone would avoid it if he already has the wire

True. I bi-wire (surprise!!) but I don't have to buy-wire! :B

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

That does bring up a question in my mind regarding the 800Ds with a pair of 500 watt monos. Perhaps Kal can chime in on this. Since the 800D's are rated up to 1000 watts, does it seem reasonble that bi-amping them with two 500 what monos per channel might produce superior bass?

Would the overall increase in current improve anything at all in the medium volume range or would perhaps any benefit only be realized in high volume listening? I know Kal your not a big fan of passive bi-amping but I'm talking about this particular case where the speaker rate max is 1000 watt and the amp is 500.
Thanks.

Not to belabor the obvious but: If you can and want to feed the speaker all the power it can handle, then bi-amping with 2 500w amps will get you closer than with 1 500W amp. OTOH, I think you would get even closer with 1 1KW amp in view of the greater power demands of the LF portion with music signals.

Kal

[WI Rotel]

Could you please explain how this one works here? :scratchhead:

If you have a speaker rated a 500 watts, the limiting portion of that range will be the high and mid frequency transducers. Thus you can buy your mid high amp to be 250 watts and in turn put your woofer on a 700 watt amp! Of course you have to match them but you'll have a huge amount of additional headroom for your woofer! Note the numbers are theoretical and for illustration purposes only.

[Jesse111]

Not to belabor the obvious but: If you can and want to feed the speaker all the power it can handle, then bi-amping with 2 500w amps will get you closer than with 1 500W amp. OTOH, I think you would get even closer with 1 1KW amp in view of the greater power demands of the LF portion with music signals.

Kal

So it's really just all about power. More power based on the speaker's ability will likely yield better results in the low end with or without biamping. And biamping may just be a personal preference issue.

Ok, so I'm off to research 1 K amps. Gotta love it. McIntosh makes a 1200. Might have to give it a look see. But then again biamping looks really cool with virtually the same results. Great hobby. It's also interesting that Abby Road biamps all their 800 series with 2 Classe CM400's.

[RobP]

If you have a speaker rated a 500 watts, the limiting portion of that range will be the high and mid frequency transducers. Thus you can buy your mid high amp to be 250 watts and in turn put your woofer on a 700 watt amp! Of course you have to match them but you'll have a huge amount of additional headroom for your woofer! Note the numbers are theoretical and for illustration purposes only.

I understand how Bi-amping works, I do it all the time in theatre installs. :W I was refering to the pseudo sub idea that you put forth.

[Kal Rubinson]

So it's really just all about power. More power based on the speaker's ability will likely yield better results in the low end with or without biamping. And biamping may just be a personal preference issue.

Ok, so I'm off to research 1 K amps. Gotta love it. McIntosh makes a 1200. Might have to give it a look see. But then again biamping looks really cool with virtually the same results. Great hobby. It's also interesting that Abby Road biamps all their 800 series with 2 Classe CM400's.

It is really all about the power. Other issues that distinguish amps are independant.

Kal

[RobP]

So it's really just all about power.

Not just power, but also about how well the amplifer can control that power. The Amplifiers you speak of here, Mac and Classe have excellent control of their rated power.

[P1et]

Personally, my 602 S3s sounded WORSE when I bi-wired them.

[tboooe]

So it's really just all about power. More power based on the speaker's ability will likely yield better results in the low end with or without biamping. And biamping may just be a personal preference issue.

Ok, so I'm off to research 1 K amps. Gotta love it. McIntosh makes a 1200. Might have to give it a look see. But then again biamping looks really cool with virtually the same results. Great hobby. It's also interesting that Abby Road biamps all their 800 series with 2 Classe CM400's.

AWESOME! Get those 1200W Macs!!! And I thought I was kinda nuts thinking about getting the 600W Pass labs monos...

[PavelL]

True. I bi-wire (surprise!!) but I don't have to buy-wire! :B

Kal

Now Mr nosey wants to know if you actually BUYamplify :lol: Won't be surprised :B

[Kal Rubinson]

Now Mr nosey wants to know if you actually BUYamplify :lol: Won't be surprised :B

I do. Not everything; just the stuff I do not want to give back.

Kal

[Jesse111]

AWESOME! Get those 1200W Macs!!! And I thought I was kinda nuts thinking about getting the 600W Pass labs monos...

You better believe it tboooe. The 800D's will handle it so I just may find myself with a pair of the big boys one day soon.

Yes, get the Pass Labs. Now that I'm gonna do it, it's ok for you to do it. Surely the wife will understand the good sense that makes.

You know you want to. C'mon... what are ya... chicken?

[tboooe]

You better believe it tboooe. The 800D's will handle it so I just may find myself with a pair of the big boys one day soon.

Yes, get the Pass Labs. Now that I'm gonna do it, it's ok for you to do it. Surely the wife will understand the good sense that makes.

You know you want to. C'mon... what are ya... chicken?

I love it!!! There nothing like having another audiophile egging you on to buy more gear! Now there is a voice of reason!!!!! Believe me, I dont need much egging on to spend my hard earned money on this crazy hobby. I am just love the looks of the Pass amps! Oh that blue dial makes me weak...

Tell you what, we will get our amps together at the same time and when our wives kick us out of the house we can move in together. Let me see, with you 2400 W of power and my 1200 W, that could probably provide all the heat we need.

Lets do it dude!!!!!!All for one, one for all!!!! I NEED MONOBLOCK AMPS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

[Jesse111]

I love it!!! There nothing like having another audiophile egging you on to buy more gear! Now there is a voice of reason!!!!! Believe me, I dont need much egging on to spend my hard earned money on this crazy hobby. I am just love the looks of the Pass amps! Oh that blue dial makes me weak...

Tell you what, we will get our amps together at the same time and when our wives kick us out of the house we can move in together. Let me see, with you 2400 W of power and my 1200 W, that could probably provide all the heat we need.

Lets do it dude!!!!!!All for one, one for all!!!! I NEED MONOBLOCK AMPS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Arneson]

Dump your wives for your amps..LOL
You guys are gay.

(couldn't resist)

[Jesse111]

Dump your wives for your amps..LOL
You guys are gay.

(couldn't resist)

Obviously you haven't reached nearly the level necessary to consider yourself a true audiophile. Poor fellow. You have thousands and thousands of dollars to waste before you can talk about gays, wives and large amps with any credibility. But keep going young fella, you'll grow up to be big, strong and broke like us some day.

[WI Rotel]

The way to graduate into a higher audiophile class is by the number of divorces. Never divorced= audio dabler (me); 3 divorces plus= audiophilus maximus ;b> :leghumper:

[dyazdani]

I understand how Bi-amping works, I do it all the time in theatre installs. :W I was refering to the pseudo sub idea that you put forth.

I also fail to see how putting more power into a woofer designed for one purpose makes it a subwoofer. Maybe I misunderstood or oversimplified the statement.

I do see the point made that typically the woofers can handle more power than the mids/tweeters.

[WI Rotel]

I also fail to see how putting more power into a woofer designed for one purpose makes it a subwoofer. Maybe I misunderstood or oversimplified the statement.

I do see the point made that typically the woofers can handle more power than the mids/tweeters.

Psuedosub. Since by biamping you are bypassing the crossover the woofer becomes it own separetely amplified low frequency transducer, it simply happens to be in the same box as the other "stuff" :W If you could saw the speaker in half and put the woofer elswhere it would be a real sub the remaining half box with your midrange and tweeter would be your "satellites"

By the way you are not giving your woofer more power RMS (if not it would play louder if the sensitivity were the same) what you are giving it is much higher dynamic headroom. Most of the time your speakers are consuming around one watt however a music peak increases the amount of current needed exponentialy, a more powerful amplifier can meet the much greater resistance of the woofer without causing distortion. All this is in theory!! On normal applications its just a nice theory rather than an audible one! :W

[tboooe]

The way to graduate into a higher audiophile class is by the number of divorces. Never divorced= audio dabler (me); 3 divorces plus= audiophilus maximus ;b> :leghumper:

TOO FUNNY....i am quickly headed to audiophilus maximus!!!!

[WI Rotel]

TOO FUNNY....i am quickly headed to audiophilus maximus!!!!

My autophilia has gotten me close (although like in stereos I don't go for ultra expense but I do get bored after a couple of years and start looking for some new goodies :twisted::driving: ) I tell my wife that its still cheaper than an affair :roflmao:

[misterdoggy]

I was trying to make a decision as I ordered biwire and got a straightwire.

So I called my tech friends at B&W factory UK and asked about what they recommend. I had thought about using jumpers.

They said they recommend biwiring and not using jumpers. The reason was jumpers could send back signal over the short run, while biwire running a couple of meters to and from the Amp would be too far for this to happen.

Im not sure the word he used, but in my minds eye it was something that could go and come back over the short jump.

So I sent back my straight wire and biwired. I am sure I can't tell the difference however, even though more expensive wiring costs' more for biwire.

[Jesse111]

TOO FUNNY....i am quickly headed to audiophilus maximus!!!!

What's two divorces? audiophilus the lesser? Cause I'd really like to know exactly where I stand on this issue.

[Jesse111]

I was trying to make a decision as I ordered biwire and got a straightwire.

So I called my tech friends at B&W factory UK and asked about what they recommend. I had thought about using jumpers.

They said they recommend biwiring and not using jumpers. The reason was jumpers could send back signal over the short run, while biwire running a couple of meters to and from the Amp would be too far for this to happen.

Im not sure the word he used, but in my minds eye it was something that could go and come back over the short jump.

So I sent back my straight wire and biwired. I am sure I can't tell the difference however, even though more expensive wiring costs' more for biwire.

I've heard that same thing. And for me, I just like knowing that if there is any benefit from biwiring, I know I'm getting it wether I can hear it or not. That just happens to be one of things I enjoy, and it looks cool to me. My 4 pairs of cables combined cost me only a couple hundred bucks or so. Personallly I'm not a big believer in expensive cables and I don't find any fun in spending my money there. But biwiring is something I'll always do.

[WI Rotel]

What's two divorces? audiophilus the lesser? Cause I'd really like to know exactly where I stand on this issue.

1- audiophilus minus
2- audiophilus
3- audiophilus excelsis
3+ audiophilus maximus
:rofl:

[Jesse111]

1- audiophilus minus
2- audiophilus
3- audiophilus excelsis
3+ audiophilus maximus
:rofl:

That will be Mr. Audiophilus, thank you very much. :rofl:

[Blindamood]

I think the best of both worlds can be had by internal b-wiring. My dealer recommended it when I moved up to the B&W CDM NT series (and now 800 Series), and to me it makes sense. One wire running across my room, but with the same benefits as running two separate wires. Just this week I ordered a new set for my 3 front speakers, and I was not even charged additional for the bi-wire setup vs. standard.

Whether or not it sounds any different or better will always be debatable, but this way I know I'm not missing out on anything, and didn't really spend any more that I would have otherwise.

[tboooe]

That will be Mr. Audiophilus, thank you very much. :rofl:

Mr. Audiophilus:

lead me to the promised land of audiophile nirvana....monoblocks...

[RebelMan]

TOO FUNNY....i am quickly headed to audiophilus maximus!!!!

I am already there DUDE! :lol: I'm still waiting for you and Jesse to catch up!!! :B I'll leave the light on for ya. :roflmao:

Bi-wiring is good for the AUDIOMAGNANIMOUS soul. LOL Count me in.

[Kal Rubinson]

They said they recommend biwiring and not using jumpers. The reason was jumpers could send back signal over the short run, while biwire running a couple of meters to and from the Amp would be too far for this to happen.

Im not sure the word he used, but in my minds eye it was something that could go and come back over the short jump.

Although it came from a presumably reliable source, it is still bull$hit.

Let me add that a presumably reliable source from B&W told me that they put the biwiring terminals on and the notes about it in the manual only to accommodate their dealers and the whims of audiophiles. I promised not to divulge that source for obvious reasons.

Choose your source.

Kal

[RebelMan]

Although it came from a presumably reliable source, it is still bull$hit.

Let me add that a presumably reliable source from B&W told me that they put the biwiring terminals on and the notes about it in the manual only to accommodate their dealers and the whims of audiophiles. I promised not to divulge that source for obvious reasons.

Choose your source.

Kal

Then why stop at bi-wiring? If they gave what audiophiles truely ask for then there would be three pairs of binding posts, no??? Maybe the passively bi-amped 800D Abbey employs was the benefit of another well done snow job too? LOL

You bi-wire because... :scratchhead:

[Kal Rubinson]

Then why stop at bi-wiring? If they gave what audiophiles truely ask for then there would be three pairs of binding posts, no???

Too much dangerous exposure for the expensive tweeter and too much complexity of added jumpers.

Maybe the passively bi-amped 800D Abbey employs was the benefit of another well done snow job too? LOL

They probably have some reasons but, so far, no objective ones have surfaced. Mebbe they just like the sound of amps that have less power than they want. :roll:

You bi-wire because... :scratchhead:

Here are my reasons: First, there is no downside to biwiring except cost. Second, the last two cable sets offered me were shotgun-biwire at the insistence of the maker. Third, I am too lazy to change, so far. Do you see a problem with that?

Kal

[RebelMan]

Too much dangerous exposure for the expensive tweeter and too much complexity of added jumpers.

Are you surmising or is this what your source said? B&W has been facilitating bi-wiring with the 800s for as long as I can remember and long before expensive tweeters became the norm. They were able to overcome the complexities brought on by the diamond tweeter, I am sure tri-wiring could have been as well. Others have.

They probably have some reasons but, so far, no objective ones have surfaced. Mebbe they just like the sound of amps that have less power than they want. :roll:

My source has led me to believe it was for measurement purposes.

Here are my reasons: First, there is no downside to biwiring except cost. Second, the last two cable sets offered me were shotgun-biwire at the insistence of the maker. Third, I am too lazy to change, so far. Do you see a problem with that?

I see nothing wrong with getting something for nothing but you, especially, still have choices. :B