Linn Akurate 252 vs B&W 802D?

[fauzigarib]

Hey there,

I know I know... another one of those xyz vs. B&W threads, but there's a catch to this one.

In my contemplating a new 2 channel system, and having narrowed it down to B&W's 802D, I started asking my cousin, who's an audio dealer in Dubai for electronics.

He asked me the prices I was going to pay, and he said for a similar amount, he could set me up with a discounted sale on a pair Linn Akurate 252, and the electronics would be Linn all round... specifically the Twin Chakra power and Linn Kontrol pre.

Now it's really not in his interest to push me into buying this, because he will simply pass on distributor prices to me, and not gain a cent in the process: That's the sort of relationship I have with him.

Anyone have any experience with these speakers? I heard them with Linn all round a couple years ago at his place.. he owns the same ones... and it was really a sight (err... sound?) to behold!

Opinions?

Fauzi

[jim777]

He asked me the prices I was going to pay, and he said for a similar amount, he could set me up with a discounted sale on a pair Linn Akurate 252, and the electronics would be Linn all round... specifically the Twin Chakra power and Linn Kontrol pre.

Don't you mean the Akurate 242??

I heard a system with a pair of self-powered Articulat's (48k$ CAD if I remember) and Linn electronics, and that might just be the only system that I've heard that could be prefered to B&W 802D's. I don't know if the Akurate's are as good though, didn't hear them. Linn was also very good with Martin Loagans for those electrostat fans. I guess that Linn would be the only other brand of electronics I would buy besides McIntosh.

With self-powered speakers and digital amplification, Linn goes against all audiophile taboos to bring what they think is best. I have respect for that!

[fauzigarib]

Self Powered is not standard...

Jim,

Thanks for the reply... Yes i did mean the akurate 242... ops:

I don't think self powered is standard on the Linns... Perhaps on the bass in some of them.

Other than that, they have teh Aktiv options on the Linn wide systems... Still trying to figure that out... Baby's crying... got to run... will finish the post later!!! :lol:

-F

[WI Rotel]

Linn makes very good products but are horribly overpriced. If you want to save money for speakers go with Rotel, if money is not a problem go for classe, brystone or krell. They are all better than Linn (even the Rotel).

[jim777]

Linn makes very good products but are horribly overpriced. If you want to save money for speakers go with Rotel, if money is not a problem go for classe, brystone or krell. They are all better than Linn (even the Rotel).

Can you justify "horribly overpriced" ? Is a BMW overpriced? Well I think GM is overpriced

Linn is not overpriced IMHO since the best sounding systems I've ever heard were running Linn or McIntosh with Linn, B&W or Avalon speakers. In stereo, Rega can do the trick, but not Rotel, not to my ears. But that's my opinion

WI_Rotel, you should check out Rega if you can. For once in audio, you get a lot more for only a little extra cash. That is what is selling the most now at my local dealer. People listen to Rotel, then Rega, and they get so much more for maybe 30% extra money. Of course, Linn and others are in another league, soundwise and pricewise..

[WI Rotel]

Can you justify "horribly overpriced" ? Is a BMW overpriced? Well I think GM is overpriced

Linn is not overpriced IMHO since the best sounding systems I've ever heard were running Linn or McIntosh with Linn, B&W or Avalon speakers. In stereo, Rega can do the trick, but not Rotel, not to my ears. But that's my opinion

WI_Rotel, you should check out Rega if you can. For once in audio, you get a lot more for only a little extra cash. That is what is selling the most now at my local dealer. People listen to Rotel, then Rega, and they get so much more for maybe 30% extra money. Of course, Linn and others are in another league, soundwise and pricewise..

I'm just not very keen of any manufacturer that boast 1K plus turntables. All the turntable mania is ludicrous it's like trying to revive the 8track :rofl: . Vinyl has been obsolete for more than 20 years (whoever claims vinyl sounds better than digital needs a psychiatrist) even stereo is rapidly approaching its demise. Yep I've listened to Linn through BWs, Revels, mirages and of course linns! Again, they were very nice but definitely not better than any Rotel amp I've ever heard, thus thoroughly overpriced. The best piece of linn equipment I ever heard war a round bookshelf monitor they made when they were still a pretty young company, I auditioned them back to back with some Spicas (another dead company) The spicas sounded just as good and cost 1/4 the price! No, the Linns were not worse and actually the look was stunning (they were billiard ball blue) but I would have bought the spicas any day over them. Linn is way overpriced.:toilet:

[jim777]

Ok, so I need a psychiatrist. BTW, did you ever listen to some high end vinyl setups to say that?

BTW, does the fact that stereo AAC (MP4) is statistically transparent in blind listening tests also mean that lossless mediums (CD, etc.) should be killed too?

[kurtholz]

WI Rotel

you kill me with your die hard Rotel posts, have you ever heard ANYTHING you thought sounded better than your beloved Rotel?

wish i had your ears, i could save a ton of money

:-)

Kurt

[earwit]

I have listened to the Linn Akurate speaker line, and Linn is a wonderful,
Line of Speakers and componets..

The B&W 802d's are preferable because the can handle with ease anything
you put at them, regardless if it's Heavy Metal, Jazz, or classical etc...
and work so well with McIntosh or Classe amps..

As far as Rotel goes, it's considered borderline entry level Hi-end audio,
and should not be mentioned with B&W or Linn .

[jim777]

I agree, at least not with any FST B&W (703, 804S and up)

Are the Linn speakers less versatile than 802D's ??

[WI Rotel]

WI Rotel

you kill me with your die hard Rotel posts, have you ever heard ANYTHING you thought sounded better than your beloved Rotel?

wish i had your ears, i could save a ton of money

:-)

Kurt

Not from Linn! As to the RMB 1095 I have heard amplifiers that differ in character but better, sincerily, probably not. Rotel's top components have the distinction (for transistor amps) to be sonically at the top of their categories, you can do a lot worse but really not much better with comparable power output. Will a 400watt classe sound better than a 200 watt roltel? DUH! the rotel can not match the possible dynamics. Is there another 200 watt amp that will sound better, no, maybe have different sonic qualities but overall, definitely not. Building an amp, as we have discussed before is not rocket science. Rotel's big advantage is inhouse power transformer manufacture, that allows them to undercut other manufacturers by one third right off the block. Furthermore, aside from the RSP 1098 they use pretty unassuming boxes to pack their goodies thus delivering what you bought audio for sound! :T

[kurtholz]

WI Rotel

Like i said before, wish i had your ears,

i can say, when i had a 1095 and other Rotel components, i thought they were very lacking, the difference between my Krell HTS versus the 1095 was so significant, even my wife heard it,"my wife" the one who want's me to build a separate room away from the main house so she doesnt have to listen to all that crap i do, who actually turns down the volume on top gun, and won't watch a movie twice, ever, hahahhaha

if she can hear the difference, and actually say something about it, then that is proof enough for me

:-)

oh, and she thinks the 802D's sound about the same as the 803N i replaced them with, hence my point in her abilities to judge sound

her comment was, if i buy anything bigger, they better be going in the new add-on, a total non-believer

now i guess the argument that the Krell put's out 50 more watts might be valid, but the KAV 3250 which is 200 watt's was also a huge Rotel killer, as was almost everything else i heard in that range, Classe,McIntosh etc

i do think you should listen to some of the finer components out there,

as to your opinion about Vinyl, i don't think anyone who has heard a well done set-up could ever argue that CD comes close, but, if you think $1000 is a lot for a turntable, you havent ever listnened to vinyl, it can be impressive, but to much hassle for me, and a $1000 won't get you in the game,

i won't comment on the 2 channel comment, as there are about 50 million listeners who would disagree it is dead or not of a quality worthy to listen to, well 50 million and 1 if you count me, i love certain music in 2 channel, but i do love that surround also

I'll quit picking on you now, but your constant posts about how incredible Rotel is does get old, those of us that have heard it, familiar with it, and moved up the chain, will never climb back down to Rotel's sound level

good luck

kurt

[WI Rotel]

WI Rotel

Like i said before, wish i had your ears,

i can say, when i had a 1095 and other Rotel components, i thought they were very lacking, the difference between my Krell HTS versus the 1095 was so significant, even my wife heard it,"my wife" the one who want's me to build a separate room away from the main house so she doesnt have to listen to all that crap i do, who actually turns down the volume on top gun, and won't watch a movie twice, ever, hahahhaha

if she can hear the difference, and actually say something about it, then that is proof enough for me

:-)

oh, and she thinks the 802D's sound about the same as the 803N i replaced them with, hence my point in her abilities to judge sound

her comment was, if i buy anything bigger, they better be going in the new add-on, a total non-believer

now i guess the argument that the Krell put's out 50 more watts might be valid, but the KAV 3250 which is 200 watt's was also a huge Rotel killer, as was almost everything else i heard in that range, Classe,McIntosh etc

i do think you should listen to some of the finer components out there,

as to your opinion about Vinyl, i don't think anyone who has heard a well done set-up could ever argue that CD comes close, but, if you think $1000 is a lot for a turntable, you havent ever listnened to vinyl, it can be impressive, but to much hassle for me, and a $1000 won't get you in the game,

i won't comment on the 2 channel comment, as there are about 50 million listeners who would disagree it is dead or not of a quality worthy to listen to, well 50 million and 1 if you count me, i love certain music in 2 channel, but i do love that surround also

I'll quit picking on you now, but your constant posts about how incredible Rotel is does get old, those of us that have heard it, familiar with it, and moved up the chain, will never climb back down to Rotel's sound level

good luck

kurt

Yep Kurt your wife can hear 50 additional watts as can everybody else that doesn't wear a hearing aid! Just like anyone can hear the difference between an RMB 1075 and a 1095, although they are sonic equals! Kurt, although I'm new to Rotel I'm old to mark levinson, krell, phase linear, McIntosh and classic Bob Carver. I simply had a long hiatus in audiophile purchasing! Through all my long years things havent changed much aside from much better HT equipment and the fact that surround formats are finally superior to stereo! Surround formats such as DTS, Dolby and DVDA are not better than stereo they are dramatically better. The first time you listen to any decent DVDA and contrast it to the same recording in stereo you simply wonder where half the music, not to mention the entire ambiance is gone.
As to turntables there goes another idiots paradise! Yes there were differences in turntables, because it was a crappy technology to begin with! Again spending stupid amounts on a tonearm made of dried mink testicles dind't sound better but of course if did sound different (ever so slightly) to the one made of chimpanzee scrotum, specially if the vinyl was cleaned with the brush made out of angel hair dabbed in holy water from a cave in switzerland :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:. You simply cant get better than the laws of physics, Vinyl is a soft malleable material that sounds different and worse every time you play it (its called wear). Stereo is exactly the same thing, sound does not come from 2 point sources thus its imposibble to make two point sources ever sound like the real thing. As to why stereo is the is still the preffered medium , its obvious, how many people can spend 10's of thousands of dollars for a decent surround systems? Furtheremore, you are totally incorrect today the preferred way to hear music, by an exponential number, compared to any other format, its on an AAC or MP3 player which is lower quality than CD not to mention any other format (but still better than vinyl) :rofl:
So don't feel smug because you spent dumb amounts of money for slim sonic rewards. What gets tiring is the silly notion that because something is more expensive its necesarily "better" that notion is just plain ignorant. Despite how much you may or may not be able to spend (trust me my stereo budget is theoretically higher than 99.99% of the populus, Uncle Sam reminds me so every year) you should always look for the best bang for your buck, specially since after you get to a certain technological level the differences are slight at best. :roll:

[Jesse111]

Through all my long years things havent changed much aside from much better HT equipment and the fact that surround formats are finally superior to stereo! Surround formats such as DTS, Dolby and DVDA are not better than stereo they are dramatically better. The first time you listen to any decent DVDA and contrast it to the same recording in stereo you simply wonder where half the music, not to mention the entire ambiance is gone.
:

I had quite a setup of surround at one time. And at every place I've been, I've never heard an accurate sound stage or imaging from surround. Now I'd like to say that that is just my opinion and my preference. I'm sure others feel completely different. Yes it was impressive in it's own right but "TO ME" my stereo systems have always sounded much more close to real and I've truly enjoyed the hobby for years. I will always have 2 channel. I've never wondered where half the music went with my stereo systems. As regards surround, I always enjoyed the ambiance. But I never felt I was near a real concert experience like I have with stereo. At the live concerts I've been to I've never heard guitar players and sound effects coming from the side or from behind me at a concert. Everything always came from the front which my stereo systems have done an amazing job of reproducing. That's just been my experience but I would never disrespect someones enjoyment of surround sound. Surround can truly be an amazing and joyful musical experience for those who prefer it. It's just not for me. It sounds like Stereo is not for you. That's ok. Isn't it?

[kurtholz]

"So don't feel smug because you spent dumb amounts of money for slim sonic rewards. "

heck i am kinda smug all the time, guess i havent cleaned my Rotel trauma out of my head yet, i'll be better, gotta go listen to a nic 2 channel on my Krell bi-amped 802D's

there, that's less smug

hahahahahhahaha

regards

Kurt

[AptosJeff]

WI Rotel,

Wow, you are geting pretty wound up about this! Forgive me, I'm not trying to start another arguement, but imo you are kidding yourself about amps. Just because you don't hear differences, doesn't mean others don't. I'm glad you like Rotel, but they don't do it for everyone. And no, it is not agreed that amp design is trivial. You seem to be stating your opinions as fact.

I will grant you that many of us spend too much for small improvements, but you can't tell others if something is worth it to them; only they can decide that. And don't begrudge, or belittle them; it's their money.

[Alloroc]

First I was nuts. Now I'm an idiot?

Pretty strong, possibly insulting words here..... Implied or not.

I'm a little agrieved about what I've read in this thread and was tempeted to respond in kind..... Then I remebered....

"If men would consider not so much wherein they differ, as wherein they agree, there would be far less of uncharitableness and angry feeling."

Joseph Addison (1672 - 1719)

Is that possible with this type of discussion?

[fauzigarib]

What about my question!!

Hey hey hey!!! Wow this innocent little thread got sooo heated up! Wow!!! Tssssssssss!

Alloroc - Well said... I agree with the quote wholly, and thanks for putting it up.

AptosJeff, kurtholz, jesse111 - Thanks for the inputs. I'm sorry that you had to have your tastes bad mouthed... Not my intention in starting this thread. I too hold Linn in quite high regard from what little I've heard. And their tt's... well the one chance that I had to borrow one for a few weeks... nothing short of exemplary.

WIRotel - Right off the top.. I think Rotel gear is VERY good. In fact, for the amount of money you pay, I don't think there is a product range out there in the market today that gives you more bang for the buck. But, please be open to the fact that there are products out there that also give you more bang.

I think its a very simplistic attitude thinking that, say "As to turntables there goes another idiots paradise!" There may be one idiot out there, two, ten, maybe even a thousand. But there is no way a company (or an industry) can run in today's complicated and highly competitive environment unless that company continously delivered on their promises. So trust me, if there is a ton of people who still believe in TT's, there IS something to it. It's a whole different story if that something is just not appealing to you...

.. for example, that Bose thread that we just had in the AV chalet. There are millions of Bose customers, so trust me when I tell you that Bose does deliver on something to those people. Am I looking for small speakers that blend into the background better than they play music? No... so they're not for me. Do I bad mouth them? Yes... Do I think any less of people that like Bose? No.. it's their money and their taste... they can burn it for all i care.

So I take it you don't like Linn, eh? :0) Thanks for the input!

-Fauzi

[Aussie Geoff]

Guys,

It's only hobby.... Let's not get personal

Peace and Blessings

Geoff

[kurtholz]

Jessee

I agree completely, stereo reproduces sound as it is live, surround puts you on the stage, both can be great, but a lot of music sounds better on stereo.

WIRotel, have you seen B & W 802D's, they have more than 1 speaker each in them, when you play a 2 channel piece out of them, you hear sound everyplace, i'll admit not as dramatic as surround, but like it was if you heard it live

i love DVDA, i have a great DVDA system, and true 7.1 to boot, with a room size to make it all work great

but i still enjoy 2 channel, in a money is no object not worried about spending more for small gains smug kinda way

hahahhahahhaha


Kurt

[WI Rotel]

:fart2:
Sorry didn't mean to stink up the place :E It's just that although I have been a long time fan of the science of sound and I simply hate when I see advertisements for a 2000 dollar set of turntable isolators or 1K speaker cables. Its simply ludicrous! It reminds me of things like the automotive turbinator, psychics and Uri Geller :urinate: Spending 50-100K on audio is comprehensible if you are a movie mogul or one of the inumerable gulf crown prince's, otherwise, its plain dumb specifically since in the venues where us mortals will be enjoying our "stuff" will usually not be the size of a movie theater! Lets be honest, how many of us around here have their equipment in a space larger than a 40 x 20 space? Its just like the question: Is the 800D worth 5K more than the 802, NO its not, the manufacturing differential is at best 100 dollars in hardware, you are required to pay 50 times that amount just to brag that your speaker extends 2 additional HZ in the lower registers and posesses a certain ethereal soundstage improvement that only the finest ears can recognize, (emperor's new clothes anyone?). For that money you could buy 3 subs that extend 5 hz lower and have the ability to shatter your neighbor's windows in the process! Spending a good amount of money in audio is worth it when you walk into a room and you almost instantly notice that X sounds much better than Y no questions asked. If you need 10 hours of listening to the same thing back to back to analize and thus differentiate the nuances between one and the other and the other costs 3 times as much, then, thats just dumb. Just my not so humble opinion :rant:

[jim777]

This thread is not even about money, it's about 802D vs Akurate 242 (that are in the same price range for fauzigarib)

Does someone have an opinion about that??

BTW, I suggest this thread be moved to the audio hideout (and clean it up at the same time..). Maybe they're more Linn people over there..

[Jesse111]

:fart2:
Sorry didn't mean to stink up the place :E It's just that although I have been a long time fan of the science of sound and I simply hate when I see advertisements for a 2000 dollar set of turntable isolators or 1K speaker cables. Its simply ludicrous! It reminds me of things like the automotive turbinator, psychics and Uri Geller :urinate: Spending 50-100K on audio is comprehensible if you are a movie mogul or one of the inumerable gulf crown prince's, otherwise, its plain dumb specifically since in the venues where us mortals will be enjoying our "stuff" will usually not be the size of a movie theater! Lets be honest, how many of us around here have their equipment in a space larger than a 40 x 20 space? Its just like the question: Is the 800D worth 5K more than the 802, NO its not, the manufacturing differential is at best 100 dollars in hardware, you are required to pay 50 times that amount just to brag that your speaker extends 2 additional HZ in the lower registers and posesses a certain ethereal soundstage improvement that only the finest ears can recognize, (emperor's new clothes anyone?). For that money you could buy 3 subs that extend 5 hz lower and have the ability to shatter your neighbor's windows in the process! Spending a good amount of money in audio is worth it when you walk into a room and you almost instantly notice that X sounds much better than Y no questions asked. If you need 10 hours of listening to the same thing back to back to analize and thus differentiate the nuances between one and the other and the other costs 3 times as much, then, thats just dumb. Just my not so humble opinion :rant:

Moderators? Is it possible to have people like WI Rotel banned. His kind of childish, envious and jealous behavior I'm sure is not wanted by anyone in the club.

[WI Rotel]

Moderators? Is it possible to have people like WI Rotel banned. His kind of childish, envious and jealous behavior I'm sure is not wanted by anyone in the club.

Jealous and envious? :roflmao:
What about insightful and a dose of common sense? :dancenana:
If we all thought that Classe is the only brand to own there wouldn't be much to "forum" about!
Childish? Well I guess I can enjoy a little juvenile behaviour now and then :twisted:

[Nolan B]

Moderators? Is it possible to have people like WI Rotel banned. His kind of childish, envious and jealous behavior I'm sure is not wanted by anyone in the club.

the problem is he is the only person that doesnt have an opinion. All of us post opinions and leave room for argument, correction and other thoughts. When WI Rotel posts he acts like his OPINION is FACT. It was funny to read his posts at first, but now its anoying.

[WI Rotel]

This thread is not even about money, it's about 802D vs Akurate 242 (that are in the same price range for fauzigarib)

Does someone have an opinion about that??

BTW, I suggest this thread be moved to the audio hideout (and clean it up at the same time..). Maybe they're more Linn people over there..

I know its degenerated to something else. We all pretty much agree, as most audiophile editors would concur, that the BW is a significantly better speaker, (this is a BW fan club site after all) not that we may all be more than a little biased. Linn is not sony but its certainly no BW.

[fauzigarib]

No banning!

Moderators? Is it possible to have people like WI Rotel banned. His kind of childish, envious and jealous behavior I'm sure is not wanted by anyone in the club.

Jesse - I think people like WI Rotel make life more interesting on this forum... Of course, in a tough, wish-i-could-kick-his-Rotel-tainted behind sort of way... Hey, just kidding, really!

WI Rotel - You're point about the 800D being worth the extra money over the 802D... Well, let me ask you this. Is the extra 4-6k worth it between the 802D and the 803D? In fact, is the extra 10k worth it between the leading mini component system and the 803D's? Or the extra 5 k between a mini system and the Rotels that you have? It's just a matter of where you draw the line... emphasis: where YOU draw the line.

I really really have a ton of respect for your opinion, and really like your straight forwardness. I think, despite the tremendous experience you have in audio, you might just find that you may have a tad bit to learn from people here with an open mind. You'd be surprised. But I still share your irritation about the isolators!!! :M

Now, please folks.. Linn!!!! Those Chakra amps look really cool in black... anyone seen them?

-Fauzi

[WI Rotel]

Jesse - I think people like WI Rotel make life more interesting on this forum... Of course, in a tough, wish-i-could-kick-his-Rotel-tainted behind sort of way... Hey, just kidding, really!

WI Rotel - You're point about the 800D being worth the extra money over the 802D... Well, let me ask you this. Is the extra 4-6k worth it between the 802D and the 803D? In fact, is the extra 10k worth it between the leading mini component system and the 803D's? Or the extra 5 k between a mini system and the Rotels that you have? It's just a matter of where you draw the line... emphasis: where YOU draw the line.

I really really have a ton of respect for your opinion, and really like your straight forwardness. I think, despite the tremendous experience you have in audio, you might just find that you may have a tad bit to learn from people here with an open mind. You'd be surprised. But I still share your irritation about the isolators!!! :M

Now, please folks.. Linn!!!! Those Chakra amps look really cool in black... anyone seen them?

-Fauzi

Fauzi I agree completely taht why I went with the XT! Do XT4's sound as good as 802's? Of course not! Do XT4 with 2 PV1's sound as good as 802's? Now were pretty darned close musicly (better bass not as good mid) and better in HT! Did it cost less you betcha! Thus I try not to blind myself by simply "prestige" cost should always be part of the calculation! Nothing is worse than the feeling that you paid way to much for what you got! Before buying tha XT I thouroughly tested the 801's (Non D) they were on special since the D's were on their way, were they great? Well, obviously! I had walked into the store with some 40K hot in the bank ready to spend on something. Then something went on inside the back of my head that said (it's 10K for 2 speakers) so with a heavy heart I said I'd call them back and didn't return for 6 mths. Another bonus check and now 100K hot in the bank I went back and the XT were right off the boat. They were hooked up with a PV1. We fired them up and it was incredible those beautifull shiny speakers were filling up the place with sound barely distinguishable from the 801's in some ways actualy better! Talked to the guy and the whole she bang surrounds an all were hooked up at home that same afternoon and it cost me less that just the 2 801 mains including a 2K reciever (which I quickly ahd to replace since it couldn't drive the silver beauties). The ears were happy the bank was happy and the conscience was at peace I had found a DEAL!

[kurtholz]

I think that we have a classic case of someone with 1 year of experienece 20 times, as opposed to someone with 20 years experience, i am of the same "tired of reading this is the only way to think everyone else is stupid" theology that keeps getting shoved down our throats. start your own forum, call it the "Rotel only or you are stupid forum" I'm sure you can find a few takers, until they lsiten to real Hi-fi



"Do XT4's sound as good as 802's? Of course not! Do XT4 with 2 PV1's sound as good as 802's? Now were pretty darned close musicly (better bass not as good mid)"

this could possibly be the most ridiculous claim i have ever heard in my life, i have heard both, it took me 2 minutes to discern the massive differences, no one could be so tone deaf as to put these in the same league

enough for me, please help us moderators

Kurt

[fauzigarib]

Hmmm...

I think that we have a classic case of someone with 1 year of experienece 20 times, as opposed to someone with 20 years experience, i am of the same "tired of reading this is the only way to think everyone else is stupid" theology that keeps getting shoved down our throats. start your own forum, call it the "Rotel only or you are stupid forum" I'm sure you can find a few takers, until they lsiten to real Hi-fi



"Do XT4's sound as good as 802's? Of course not! Do XT4 with 2 PV1's sound as good as 802's? Now were pretty darned close musicly (better bass not as good mid)"

this could possibly be the most ridiculous claim i have ever heard in my life, i have heard both, it took me 2 minutes to discern the massive differences, no one could be so tone deaf as to put these in the same league

enough for me, please help us moderators

Kurt

Kurt,

I know the feeling of shock and awe you experienced when you read that statement about the XT's being the same as the 802's (I haven't heard the XT's, so I wasn't sure if it could be true!), but one thing has to be said about WI Rotel.

Whether there is or isn't a big difference, I think that it's quite bold and straightforward to buy the XT's, despite being able to afford something on the higher end. If he can't hear the difference, why pay for it? Indeed, if that was me in his shoes, I'm sure that I would have bought the 802D's with Mark Levinson separates... Just because I could.

But, WI, are you serious that you couldn't hear a big difference, or did you exaggerate to make the point? Or a significant enough difference to (even somewhat) justify the cost? From reading your post, it sounded like the difference just was not there... aside from a tad in the bass and mid. From what I understand, the XT and the new 800's are night and day. I'm very curious to know.

-Fauzi

[WI Rotel]

Kurt,

I know the feeling of shock and awe you experienced when you read that statement about the XT's being the same as the 802's (I haven't heard the XT's, so I wasn't sure if it could be true!), but one thing has to be said about WI Rotel.

Whether there is or isn't a big difference, I think that it's quite bold and straightforward to buy the XT's, despite being able to afford something on the higher end. If he can't hear the difference, why pay for it? Indeed, if that was me in his shoes, I'm sure that I would have bought the 802D's with Mark Levinson separates... Just because I could.

But, WI, are you serious that you couldn't hear a big difference, or did you exaggerate to make the point? Or a significant enough difference to (even somewhat) justify the cost? From reading your post, it sounded like the difference just was not there... aside from a tad in the bass and mid. From what I understand, the XT and the new 800's are night and day. I'm very curious to know.

-Fauzi

Truly the difference is not that big. Both speakers are sonically different. The XT is brighter and has a huge soundstage (as HT demands). The 802 has a warmer more melodic mid. The PV1 has a completly neutral, very dynamic and deep bass, better than the 802 IMO. If you have listened to the 7 series, simply think of a 703 with a wider soundstage and a much more powerful deeper bass . The XT highs are close to flawless (just like any other nautilus tweeter). The XT4 by itself has decent bass extension but the bass is quite laid backand and lacks crispness, when paired with the PV1 and crossed over at 60Hz or so the speaker transforms. The XT's 2 woofers are fantastic low mid transducers, once freed from delivering the lower registers the overall midrange of the system is exquisite and close to a match for the FST of the 8 series.

To truly listen to the XT powerful amplification is essential since the XT4 easily drops way below 4 ohms, the xt2 and XTC are also juice holes! In my experice no receiver can drive the 5 speakers at the same time satisfactorily. I bought the system with a 1067 receiver originally. It couldn't run them for more than ten minutes at 90db without shutting down at least one channel. I know thats loud but when you test you have to put the system through hte wringer :twisted: An RMB 1095 quickly cured that problem, its always nice to have more juice tham you will ever need.

[jim777]

simply think of a 703 with a wider soundstage and a much more powerful deeper bass

How did you level match?

BTW, I'm sure the McIntosh MHT200 7.1 receiver wouldn't have shut down... :twisted:

[WI Rotel]

How did you level match?

BTW, I'm sure the McIntosh MHT200 7.1 receiver wouldn't have shut down... :twisted:

Maybe not, since my dealer does not sell Mc I couldn' say. Since Mc specs are as known as Rolls Royces HP specs :roll: we cannot even figure out if theoretically it could or not! 140 RMS (the only spec that mc provides)should be enough, 100x7 (125x2) definitely wasn't, though Rotel reports power output very conservatively. And yes levels were matched using a dB meter specifically at 85 dB. For the XT that is appx 1 watt, the known magical one!

[Alloroc]

Now, please folks.. Linn!!!! Those Chakra amps look really cool in black... anyone seen them?

-Fauzi

Fausi, You're right - the Linn question. it's why you posted! It's so easy to get sucked into some daft argument when you read posts like we've seen here. 99.9% of the time I ignore but today I nearly bit... common sense prevailed tho'!

Anyhow, it could be a real good idea, as already suggested, to post this on the Audio Hideout forum....

So, my experiece with Linn is broadly positive. I have a Linn Classik - had it for years - in my bedroom and it performes perfectly well. I also have a Sondek turntable and although it was upgraded and is now redundant for the time being, it gave me many years of great service. I'll never get rid of it!

But, onto the Akurat. Firstly, I would say I'm a huge fan of B&W and have been for years. I still have 703s on my HT setup. But for audio, I've moved on.

Firstly, I'd be curious to know how old they are... Having demo'd lots of Linn stuff over the years in my local Linn center (called Dublinn funnily enough!), It's quality stuff. Extremley well made and uses high quality materials.

But time moves on, so does the technology and my gut tells me that the 802ds could be the better choice particularly with the new Diamond tweeter, and with the right electronics will give the Linn setup a right old run for its money.

That said, you have an oppertunity to acquire what originally must have cost $$$$$ - if I'm reading your post correctly. Is it just the speakers or is it the whole kit?

Is it possible to get a side by side test?

Anyhow, on a related note, I have no problem with used kit. I managed to acquire a pair of Kharma speakers for the price of a pair of 800ds and it was the best Audio decision of my life.

V.

[jim777]

Maybe not, since my dealer does not sell Mc I couldn' say. Since Mc specs are as known as Rolls Royces HP specs :roll: we cannot even figure out if theoretically it could or not! 140 RMS (the only spec that mc provides)should be enough, 100x7 (125x2) definitely wasn't, though Rotel reports power output very conservatively. And yes levels were matched using a dB meter specifically at 85 dB. For the XT that is appx 1 watt, the known magical one!

Well then maybe you should go somewhere else to listen to some mac. You won't need an A/B test, just get in a room with a mac and you'll stop saying that all amps sound the same. I can't garanty that mac will be your sound, but it won't sound like Rotel for sure :B

[RobP]

Gentlemen,
Here are a couple of quotes taken from the B&W posting guidelines written by a very wise man. Please take a moment to read them, let them soak in, and remember them in times of need.

Respect Each Other - A hallmark of HTguide is that we all try and respect each other knowing that sound is subjective to each person and people are entitled to different views.

Have Fun! - For me this is the most important guideline - its a hobby for enjoyment, this is a fun forum - and the more we help make it that way with our posts the greater pleasure and use we will all get out of it!

Lets keep Club B&W a positive place, where we can share ideas without being antagonistic and abusive to one another.

[fauzigarib]

Uh oh!

Guys,

The moderator has stepped in on my thread!! As flattered as I am (it's like hosting a rock concert where the neighboring state calls the national guard!!! :twisted: ), come on folks!

WI Rotel - I'm glad you're happy. Everyone's glad you're happy with your stuff. We get the idea. Good for you.

Vincent (alloroc) - The Akurates are I think about 6-7 years old. But it continues to be their fastest selling series. It seems that as a general rule, from what I've read across the board, those who prefer the "European" audio sound, have a tough call between either B&W or Linn.

Unfortuantely, I won't get a chance to hear the two side by side... My cousin's in Dubai, and I live in Pakistan. However, I'm planning on travelling to Dubai in the next couple of months, and will look up the B&W agent there. So let's see.

Why aren't you getting rid of the Sondek!?!?!? Come ooooonnnnn!!!! Give us a chance, mate! Good to hear that you like to hang onto your tradition. They make some really nice tables. What model is it? And which one are you currently using?

Thanks for the input, guys...

-Fauzi

[AptosJeff]

XT vs other B&W

Anyone know where the XT falls in the overall B&W lineup? I have not heard XT's, but have heard several models of the 600, 700 and 800 series. To me, there are huge, immediate differences in these three lines. But I don't expect everyone to hear what I do; some certainly hear more, and apparently some less.

To WI and a few others: please accept that we don't all hear the same things. Why? IMO, it's not the anatomy of our ears, it's the way our cortex's are wired! This is the result of years and years of experience, and everyone has their own legitimate opinion on what sounds like what and why. We are different, and we can give opinions, but we can't say what someone else does or doesn't hear.

fauzigarib, I hope you get some answers, but don't let people tell you what you can and can't hear.

[fauzigarib]

Xt

Jeff,

Thanks for the words. Trust me when I tell you that I learned a LOOOOOOONG time ago what I can hear and what my limitations are. Maybe some ten years ago, WI Rotels comments would have really confused the heck out of me. But now, I really see them to be an opionion of someone who admits to be a very practical sort.

The XT line, according to the website, ranks just below the 300 series. And I'm not surprised, because I'm a firm believer in the speakers sound being HIGHLY dependant on the cabinetry... and the depth and structure of the cabinets (at least from the pics on the website) on the XT seems more geared towards aesthetics rather than sound stage etc.

They have a smaller, 5" (as opposed to 6" in the 800 / 700 ranges) woven Kevlar midrange driver. The cabinets are far slimmer than the any of the above ranges and don't allow for deep bass, hence the need for the the PV1.

All the reviews I've read really place them high on a performance to budget curve. Which, in my opinion, has never been what B&W does well... but then I've never heard the XT's. I have a feeling that B&W does "no expense spared" sort of innovations, and this has been their foray into the mass markets.

I don't know the pricing on these things, but WI Rotel gave an indication that the whole setup costs less than $8k.

WI Rotel: "We fired them up and it was incredible those beautifull shiny speakers were filling up the place with sound barely distinguishable from the 801's in some ways actualy better! Talked to the guy and the whole she bang surrounds an all were hooked up at home that same afternoon and it cost me less that just the 2 801 mains including a 2K reciever"

Good luck!

-Fauzi

[Alloroc]

Anyone know where the XT falls in the overall B&W lineup? I have not heard XT's, but have heard several models of the 600, 700 and 800 series. To me, there are huge, immediate differences in these three lines. But I don't expect everyone to hear what I do; some certainly hear more, and apparently some less.

They actually sit in between the 600 and 700 series - they use the Nautillus tweeters and kevlar cones. From hearing them, I'd rate the XT4 on or almost on a par with perhaps the 704.

My Sondek is an LP12 - about 10 years old now.

My current spinner is a Clearaudio Ambient with a Unify tonearm and am currently using a Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartrdge. I also use a Clearaudio Balance phono preamp, for those that are still into Vinyl.

And when I say that a quality pressed 180g album can still rival the best CD, even stereo SACD, has to offer, I mean it!

[jim777]

The XT4 has a FST and it compensates for its small cabinet with lower sensitivity. It would be impossible to have 90dB sensitiviy and the good frequency response from such a small cabinet at the same time.

I didn't do an A/B test, but I don't think that the XT4 is as reveiling as the 703 (hense the XT may appear to sound better with Rotel :twisted: ), but might be as good as the CM6 that was discontinued a few months before the XT series was annonced.

PS I'm joking WI Rotel a bit (please don't take too seriously!)

[chinets]

Fauzi,
WI Rotel has the right to express his feelings about Rotel because they do produce great gear ,especially their top end amps like the 1095 ,and the 1098 Pre/Pro. Rotel's top gear are up there with the best, and the difference in sound between the top end Amps etc. and Rotel top end is minimal. Therefore ,what WI Rotel is saying is true!!! For the Money, the difference between a classe top end amp and a Rotel 1095 amp for example is rediculous, because the sound benefit that you get is minimal and usually the difference is in the low end area such as bass ,and if you get 2 subs that would settle the main difference in sound and you still would have saved thousands of $$$???? Right.
The instigator in this thread was Kurt with his Krell bible preaching ways that turned this thread into a nasty argument. If you believe for a second that WIRotel was a Rotel Pusher well then check Kurt out with his Krell pushing. Neocons on both sides or as Bush puts it those facist ways!!!!!!! We are going to start a clash of civiizations here with this thread having the Mc,Linn,Krell , classe bashers on one side, and the Rotel bashers on the other side. I personally find that Rotel sounds just as good as Krell and Classe in their top end gear as I personally have both, and there is no day and night guessing here unless you listen to the same song over and over again for 10 hours. And at the end ,you end up getting an extra sub and VOILA the trouble is solved and your pocket is still full of extra money which you could put into speakers, because at the end of the day it is the speakers that determine the true day and night sound. Either you like the sound of B&W or LINN speakers or not, but the Amp and Pre/Pro will not change the sound night and day unless, you don't have the right amount of juice or wattage to run your speakers. I also believe that the first source such as your CD player or DVD player make a difference in sound and the final source which are your spaeakers change th sound. In between sources, such as amp, Pre/Pro or cables is hard to detect unless you spend ten hours testing to hear an extra key that the pianist played that was heard on the other system that you paid dearly for and are not too sure if that sound was actually there or you have a spec of sand on the CD that made that different noise or sound. Come on guys!!! Please keep an open mind here and let WI Rotel give his opinion. B&W are part of Rotel in the first place...Why??? for a reason they are excellent gear with a great sticker price.
As for Fauzi if you go to Dubai and buy B&W speakers ask for Karim the owner and agents of B&W in Dubai he is a great guy and a reliable dealer IMHO!!!!!!!!
Have fun guys and let us enjoy the forum here with NO fights or ill feelings. We are all here to learn and gain experience!! I guess the NO pain No gain comes into play here on this forum, but let us all keep this civilized. I respect Kurt and WI Rotel and I respect Rotel and Krell.. it is just a matter of personal taste and how much you want to spend because more expensive does NEVER mean better.
My 2 cents worth,
Cheers and Godd Luck!!!!!!!!!!!
Chinets

[fauzigarib]

Fauzi,
WI Rotel has the right to express his feelings about Rotel because they do produce great gear ,especially their top end amps like the 1095 ,and the 1098 Pre/Pro. Rotel's top gear are up there with the best, and the difference in sound between the top end Amps etc. and Rotel top end is minimal. Therefore ,what WI Rotel is saying is true!!! For the Money, the difference between a classe top end amp and a Rotel 1095 amp for example is rediculous, because the sound benefit that you get is minimal and usually the difference is in the low end area such as bass ,and if you get 2 subs that would settle the main difference in sound and you still would have saved thousands of $$$???? Right.
The instigator in this thread was Kurt with his Krell bible preaching ways that turned this thread into a nasty argument. If you believe for a second that WIRotel was a Rotel Pusher well then check Kurt out with his Krell pushing. Neocons on both sides or as Bush puts it those facist ways!!!!!!! We are going to start a clash of civiizations here with this thread having the Mc,Linn,Krell , classe bashers on one side, and the Rotel bashers on the other side. I personally find that Rotel sounds just as good as Krell and Classe in their top end gear as I personally have both, and there is no day and night guessing here unless you listen to the same song over and over again for 10 hours. And at the end ,you end up getting an extra sub and VOILA the trouble is solved and your pocket is still full of extra money which you could put into speakers, because at the end of the day it is the speakers that determine the true day and night sound. Either you like the sound of B&W or LINN speakers or not, but the Amp and Pre/Pro will not change the sound night and day unless, you don't have the right amount of juice or wattage to run your speakers. I also believe that the first source such as your CD player or DVD player make a difference in sound and the final source which are your spaeakers change th sound. In between sources, such as amp, Pre/Pro or cables is hard to detect unless you spend ten hours testing to hear an extra key that the pianist played that was heard on the other system that you paid dearly for and are not too sure if that sound was actually there or you have a spec of sand on the CD that made that different noise or sound. Come on guys!!! Please keep an open mind here and let WI Rotel give his opinion. B&W are part of Rotel in the first place...Why??? for a reason they are excellent gear with a great sticker price.
As for Fauzi if you go to Dubai and buy B&W speakers ask for Karim the owner and agents of B&W in Dubai he is a great guy and a reliable dealer IMHO!!!!!!!!
Have fun guys and let us enjoy the forum here with NO fights or ill feelings. We are all here to learn and gain experience!! I guess the NO pain No gain comes into play here on this forum, but let us all keep this civilized. I respect Kurt and WI Rotel and I respect Rotel and Krell.. it is just a matter of personal taste and how much you want to spend because more expensive does NEVER mean better.
My 2 cents worth,
Cheers and Godd Luck!!!!!!!!!!!
Chinets

Chinets,

Hey thanks for the post. Let's not get into old stuff again, ok?

I really agree with you that WI Rotel is right... Hey, everyone who likes their own stuff is right. I think Kurt is right for pushing his Krell, and jim, for pushing his mac, and everyone for pushing everything that is currently sitting in their racks at home.

My only issue with Rotel was, and I made this clear, was that be open to others' opinions... and that's it. I also went as far to say that I really admire someone who has the gall to go against the grain of majority thinking and speak his mind. I really do.

So, Chinets, I think I agree with everything you say... Please don't get me wrong... I don't hold anything against anyone on this thread or forum... (well, except for all of you owners of the 800 series... especially the D series... HATE YOU ALL!!! ;x( )

Thanks for the tip on Karim... Do you remember the name of his company? I find two dealers in Dubai, only one of whom stock the 800... Archimedia? is that it?

Will certainly look him up... Thanks,

Fauzi

[Nolan B]

Jeff,



The XT line, according to the website, ranks just below the 300 series. And I'm not surprised, because I'm a firm believer in the speakers sound being HIGHLY dependant on the cabinetry... and the depth and structure of the cabinets (at least from the pics on the website) on the XT seems more geared towards aesthetics rather than sound stage etc.

-Fauzi

As an FYI the order you see speakers on the B&W site is not in order or quality. Also depth of the structure is not related to quality. I called B&W about the FPM series and they a said the FPM series is consider slightly better then the 600 series. They are much less in depth then the 600 or 300 series and are listed "below" the 300 and 600 series on the B&W site.

[fauzigarib]

Thanks...

As an FYI the order you see speakers on the B&W site is not in order or quality. Also depth of the structure is not related to quality. I called B&W about the FPM series and they a said the FPM series is consider slightly better then the 600 series. They are much less in depth then the 600 or 300 series and are listed "below" the 300 and 600 series on the B&W site.

Vancouver,

Thanks for pointing that out... I did guess the ranking from the website...

Later,

Fauzi