Power recommendation for 703's

[BTB]

BTB:

I think I finally know what my concern was. With a budget of around $3000 would I have been better off getting the 704's w/ about $1000 for the receiver or the 603's with about $1500 for the receiver?

Aaahhh... and here the trouble begins! :twisted:

I think most, (if not all) of us have been in this position one time or another... :W It's probably the number 1 reason people go "upgrade" mad and spend alot of money they didn't really have to spend, in search of the "next best thing". Or put another way... it's probably just a good case of buyers remorse. It comes with the territory, as I said in an earlier post... buying audio is tricky becuase there are so many good options out there. To put your mind at ease, I think you've done the right thing... the 700's are (subjectively) a more demanding speaker, quality wise, so a more demanding speaker hooked up to a cheaper amp doesn't make good sense does it?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would say this:

Get your speakers set up, with the amp/reciever you (seem to) have on hand, play your speakers in gently, at low volume for about a week or so, see how you like it... note things you might like to improve on (maybe a dedicated CD player, or better cables? Or more music!!! One of the best upgrades!!! ) or enjoy the things your new system is good at. Whatever you do, don't rush into buying anything more for now!! Take your time, enjoy the process, listen to the various options of partnering equipment that are available to you and build up a system of your choice around your 603's... many on this forum can tell you... they are great speakers. I used to own, them... I still miss some of their positive attributes!

Lastly, this is a great forum with lots of well informed people who are glad to offer advice or opinions. In other words, we can help you spend ALL your cash and end up with a cooking system. The important things are... take your time, and trust your ears, if something sounds good to you... that's what matters most. Reviews can help, opinions can help, but in the end YOU have to like it for it to be worthwhile.

[CPALIU]

I started to listen to them last night and this morning (left them on overnight). Will the highs begin to show more detail as the speakers begin to age? It seems like the high's just arn't producing the amount of detail that I remember they did at the store.

[BTB]

The speakers will not sound their best straight out of the box, they will require a period of "breaking in" to sound better, and continue to improve for some time after that, so it will be a while before they sound how you remember. Also, once they are run in a bit more you should take the time to experiment moving them around your room a little till you find the best position for them. Loudspeakers are THE MOST room dependant part of the audio chain, as in they are most affected by issues of room acoustics etc... You can read up about these and other subjects on the B&W website, in the FAQ section. Good reading for sure.

Also, what partnering equipment did you hear them on at the store? That may have been a factor as well.

[CPALIU]

I actually don't member the exact model, but it was with a Pioneer Elite receiver. It was either the vsx 72 or vsx 74. I'm running the vsx 74 at home so the receiver is either the same or similiar.

[BTB]

Ok, in that case without getting too technical about things... (what source did they use, what are you using? what interconnects and cables? influence of your room vs. the store listening room, are you listening to the same recordings? etc... ALL of which will play a part)...

At this stage it's most likely a issue of running in, you just have to wait it out for a short while and try not push the speakers too hard for now.

[CPALIU]

should i just leave the receivers on then to break in the speakers? Should i have it playing some type or source?

I was also looking at the BW site on bi amping and bi wiring. Can someone sum up what's they do? I was fairly lost when going through the site

[BTB]

Yes leave some music playing, overnight and all day if you're happy to do that.

Bi wire - use a 4 strand cable (many are available) to link to each of the 4 binding posts on the back of your speakers from a single amp, remember to remove the metal jumper in between the binding posts that is now linking them.

Bi Amp - use 2 power amps... one to drive HF one to drive LF on each speaker...or one to drive each individual speaker.

[CPALIU]

In my case since all i have is a receiver, i would only be able to bi wire correct?

[BTB]

Yes that is correct. There is some debate as to what actual effect/benefit bi wiring and bi amping has on speakers. But as you would have seen from the website B&W do seem to approve of the practice.

[CPALIU]

Since I still have the option of returning the Pioneer Elite receiver i purchased. Would I be better off picking up the Rotel RSX 1057 instead?

[Ade]

Yes that is correct. There is some debate as to what actual effect/benefit bi wiring and bi amping has on speakers. But as you would have seen from the website B&W do seem to approve of the practice.

Bi-wiring is a contentious subject alright and from what I've seen most people with a technical background agree that it's nothing but snake oil - at best you'll get the same effects by single wiring from the amp and replacing the jumper bars with the same wire you're using from the amp.

I've yet to see anyone denying that bi-amping makes a difference though. It's an entirely different principle and as much as doubles the power into the speaker, half of which is dedicated to the midrange and upper frequencies and half to the bass.

[BTB]

Ade

I don't bi wire my speakers, I don't think there is that much benefit to be had either.

However, I think you might want to check your facts regarding bi amping... it DOES NOT double the power (V), but current (A) does double, which is in itself a good thing anyway.

[Ade]

Ade

I don't bi wire my speakers, I don't think there is that much benefit to be had either.

However, I think you might want to check your facts regarding bi amping... it DOES NOT double the power (V), but current (A) does double, which is in itself a good thing anyway.

I'm not an electrician and I was using "power" in the general sense of the word.

There are some good threads on this subject on audioholics which go into some more detail and as people mention there, the amount you benefit from bi-amping very much depends on the speakers being used - if you're using Klipsch RF7's that have a sensitivity of over 100dB's for instance then it's a waste of an amp. :lol: My guess is that all of B&W’s 3-way speakers will benefit some though.

[BTB]

Hi Ade

I'm no expert myself! Just a topic that's been discussed VERY often on these threads, so I've picked up info along the way, and from a few other sources as well. Not to say bi amping is a waste... yet another audio related issues that is... I think, a "ear" of the beholder type of decision.

I'm interested enough to try it some day, but apparently it starts getting complex when it comes to bypassing your speakers crossovers to achieve "active" bi amping, which seems to be the "real deal"... otherwise it seems that the benefit might be too small to write home about, and effectively a waste of a second amp.

[cal264]

Just received my 703's about 3 weeks ago. Started with A BANDK 125Wx2 and it sounded great. Moved up to the Rotel 200Wx2 and it sounds the same but goes louder. Get a good quality amp with Continuous power rating above 125W and you will be happy.

JV

[jim777]

Just received my 703's about 3 weeks ago. Started with A BANDK 125Wx2 and it sounded great. Moved up to the Rotel 200Wx2 and it sounds the same but goes louder. Get a good quality amp with Continuous power rating above 125W and you will be happy.

JV

Sounds the same!? What source are you using? It might be your bottleneck.

[CPALIU]

I finally decided to really crank up the volume today on the 603's w/ the pioneer elite vsx-74 receiver. WOW! you hear so much more detail when the volumes up high. No regrets about the speakers now :P

[Ade]

Sounds the same!? What source are you using? It might be your bottleneck.

Almost all amps sound identical at the same SPL. Given amps of differing output ratings the differences will only become apparent when you start to exceed one amps power ratings and it begins to clip.

Take a read of this PDF of an amp test.

[cal264]

To Jim777 .... I am using an Onkyo AV reciever 801 as the preamp as its in a theatre. I have had many compliments from those who are audiophiles so Im not sure about a bottle neck but point taken (sometimes people are just trying to be nice). They sounds great to me no matter how much power they have on them but Bass response is better with the 1080..

Im using the 1080 for the front mains (703's) preamped by the Onkyo 801 and center and all four surrounds are run out of the Onkyo. I bought the 703"s for mainly music and thats why the Rotel 1080 powers them. I have a Denon 3910 for CD/DVD (SACD's are awesome) ... Many audiophiles tell me I need a dedicated preamp and $2 to $3 thouands dollar CD player (their cracked). Think Ill just go get me porsche as the final episode of my middle life crisis. This setup sounds good enough for these old ears ..

[jim777]

To Jim777 .... I am using an Onkyo AV reciever 801 as the preamp as its in a theatre. I have had many compliments from those who are audiophiles so Im not sure about a bottle neck but point taken (sometimes people are just trying to be nice). They sounds great to me no matter how much power they have on them but Bass response is better with the 1080..

Im using the 1080 for the front mains (703's) preamped by the Onkyo 801 and center and all four surrounds are run out of the Onkyo. I bought the 703"s for mainly music and thats why the Rotel 1080 powers them. I have a Denon 3910 for CD/DVD (SACD's are awesome) ... Many audiophiles tell me I need a dedicated preamp and $2 to $3 thouands dollar CD player (their cracked). Think Ill just go get me porsche as the final episode of my middle life crisis. This setup sounds good enough for these old ears ..

Sorry cal, I was not trying to be mean or anything. I hope you didn't take my interrogation "personal". Only trying to help.. In fact, now that you told me what your complete setup is, I think that it looks nicely balanced. I'm sure it sounds pretty well. I never heard the 3910 but from what I've read it should be a great source for your system.

[jim777]

Almost all amps sound identical at the same SPL. Given amps of differing output ratings the differences will only become apparent when you start to exceed one amps power ratings and it begins to clip.

We could also prove that Coke tastes exactly the same as Pepsi

Even the best amps have choices to make that may depend only on personnal preferences. The perfect amp does not exist, so you can say that one is not always better all the time for everyone, but saying that they all sound the same is a bit silly IMO. Note that this is based on my personnal experience, your opinion can be different being based on your experience and that is fine with me

[Ade]

We could also prove that Coke tastes exactly the same as Pepsi

Even the best amps have choices to make that may depend only on personnal preferences. The perfect amp does not exist, so you can say that one is not always better all the time for everyone, but saying that they all sound the same is a bit silly IMO. Note that this is based on my personnal experience, your opinion can be different being based on your experience and that is fine with me

My personal experience doesn't count really as my hearing (and everyone else's) is very much prone to psychological bias that's why I put my trust in objective tests performed by reliable sources and they show that quality amplifiers all sound the same when running within their stated limitations.

As was stated by an audio engineer on AVS forums, "if the design goal of an amplifier is to be a straight wire with gain then of course they will all sound the same" or words to that effect. It's simple really, any amp that adds colouration is not a quality amp and as you can see from the test, none of those amps ranging in price from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars did.

Now this is not saying that there aren't other reasons to buy a more expensive amp with more headroom etc because of course there certainly are other reasons but "a different sound" is not one of them - unless you consider a louder sound as different.

I’m fairly new to this hobby and I suppose I’m lucky that there’s such a wealth of factual information available now compared to what there was 20 or even 5 years ago. I’m also fairly skeptical by nature so that's probably helped me avoid falling for most of the snake oil myths; there have been a few that I’ve swallowed that I had to back track on after doing some research though, like speaker burn in for instance.

If you go by what a lot of audiophiles say on some of the (primarily US) forums you need monoblock amps with nothing less than 2 to 3x the max power rating of your speakers per channel to get a decent sound which is patently ridiculous of course.

[jim777]

If you go by what a lot of audiophiles say on some of the (primarily US) forums you need monoblock amps with nothing less than 2 to 3x the max power rating of your speakers per channel to get a decent sound which is patently ridiculous of course.

No I wouldn't go that far...

[BTB]

I’m also fairly skeptical by nature so that's probably helped me avoid falling for most of the snake oil myths; there have been a few that I’ve swallowed that I had to back track on after doing some research though, like speaker burn in for instance.

If you mean to say that speaker burn in is a myth you might want to do some more research. I loudspeaker, being a mechanical thing, i.e... with moving parts... DOES require some time to reach optimum operating conditions, or "burn in". Anyone who doesn't understand that is plain and simply wrong.

As for all "quality" amps sounding the same... sorry, I've heard to many of good "quality" to agree with that viewpoint.

[Ade]

If you mean to say that speaker burn in is a myth you might want to do some more research. I loudspeaker, being a mechanical thing, i.e... with moving parts... DOES require some time to reach optimum operating conditions, or "burn in". Anyone who doesn't understand that is plain and simply wrong.

As for all "quality" amps sounding the same... sorry, I've heard to many of good "quality" to agree with that viewpoint.

Burn in usually requires a few seconds and rarely a little more. This isn't to say that there may be some extremely exotic designs out there that do require extended use to reach optimal performance - anything is possible after all. Manufacturers that mention burn in and other myths such as bi-wiring are just pandering to audiophiles fantasies and any "burn in" that people hear is either related to psycho acoustics or their own ears burning in (getting used to a new sound). It's not rocket science.

For an objective dissertation on the subject take a read of
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...kerBreakIn.php

[BTB]

Ade

I admire your search for the "truth", and your obvious rejection of the many "myths" that surround too many subjects related to mid to high end audio. I too, have a basic distrust of marketing hard sell and gimmicks.

Yet I have learned over the years that true objectivity & audio writing mix about as well as oil & water do. There is not one area in this whole field of interest that can claim to be truly untainted by some form of bias, regardless of how scientific it may appear, everyone has their own point to make. And divisions of opinion are common. Likewise, the line between fact & fiction is often blurred, and you feel strongly for or against something based on your own experience & viewpoint, making this the only really worthwhile standard.

Maybe this is because Hi Fi, is essentially "experienced" and the response of an individual cannot always be measured... not to get too "touchy - feely" about things, but here's an example...science can list all the ingredients of your favourite meal, but cannot ever measure your exact personal response to it. You may love the experience of it... I may write a really clever paper as to why you shouldn't...why a slice of dry toast would satisfy your hunger just as well. You have to decide for yourself whether you'd be more inclined to believe a spec sheet or your tastebuds to judge which meals you'd like to eat.

There is obviously merit in measuring all sorts of audio related things, but to bury your head in specs and technical arguments, is to miss the point of enjoying the experience... that's what makes our system building (and ownership) so individual & rewarding.

An open mind is key. Just this weekend I tried a set of bi-wire speaker cables on my system, after years of flying the anti bi-wire flag. I was amazed at how much the system was improved. Maybe it was the quality of the conductor? Maybe it was the bi-wire configuration? Who knows...yet according to your view it was neither because beyond a certain point they're all the same anyway? Guess it was all just in my mind then? Regardless, I'll happily continue to enjoy the imagined improvement. In other words... each to his own...no one opinion is "more" right than another... just relax and trust your own ears, and leave all these clever technical papers to the men in the lab coats.

[Aussie Geoff]

BTB,

Very well said!!!!

An open mind and being prepared to listen is the key. We have a very surprising hobby!

Geoff

[BTB]

Hi Geoff

Thanks.
Got a bit "fired up" there. ops: Just coming to terms with this hobby after enjoying it's fruits for the past few years, seems I'm in it for the long haul, so these are the types of "issues" I've been thinking through lately.

Don't want to be one of those seen it all... done it all... bitter guys, who don't allow room for experimentation and the pleasant suprises that might be found in unexpected, unexplored places. This is supposed to be fun after all... expensive but fun!! :T

Here ends "soapbox" moment... :W

[Ade]

Hi Geoff

Thanks.
Got a bit "fired up" there. ops: Just coming to terms with this hobby after enjoying it's fruits for the past few years, seems I'm in it for the long haul, so these are the types of "issues" I've been thinking through lately.

Don't want to be one of those seen it all... done it all... bitter guys, who don't allow room for experimentation and the pleasant suprises that might be found in unexpected, unexplored places. This is supposed to be fun after all... expensive but fun!! :T

Here ends "soapbox" moment... :W

It was a nice speech and I get where you are coming from. No, seriously I do. And I don't think you're bitter sounding at all but strangely enough that's something I've been called when discussing this very subject.

I don't begrudge you audiophiles your expensive fantasies if they make you happy and content. Psycho acoustics is quite an amazing thing.

However, the message propagated to newbies is that striving for excellence means spending insane amounts of money on cables when in fact blind tests have shown cable made from coat hanger wire sounds just as good.

Oh, and the term “open minded” is relative…

And just for the record, I'm really not at all bitter.

Enjoy.