703 VS 804.. Thoughts

[Ted]

Hello all, I've been enjoying this site for a while, but this is my first post. I'm looking at building a 2 channel or possibly 2.1 system and have narrowed the speakers down to 703 or 804s. While I realize the 804s are better overall speakers and I need to let my ears be the final judge, I was wondering if I could get some feedback on the two. I'm leaning towards the 703 but could save more for the 804s if I felt I'd get a significant upgrade (and not worry about buyer’s remorse with the 703).

I listen to several types of music from Genesis to Pantera and Duran Duran to Public Enemy and some classical (no country or jazz though) and wondered if one of the speakers may cover a wider range of music better than the other? I plan on using a Rotel RC 1070 Pre-amp with either a Rotel 1070 or 1080 amp.

With some of the bass heavy types of music, would you recommend a separate sub with either or both? The specs look similar on both models to me on the low end.

Lastly, I will be visiting the Chicago area next month and was wondering if anyone knows a good dealer to hear both speakers at? My dealer stocks the 703 but our city isn't big enough for them to stock the 804s due to lack of demand. I’ve shopped there for years and want to remain loyal but realize I need to compare the two.

I hope that I don't cover too much on the topic and I appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Ted

[Joey_V]

804S are cleaner and better (aka blacker) between the notes than the 703s. That's the main jist of it, from what I remember when I listened to them. Powered with those Rotel choices, that should be a fine match. I heard them on Rotels as well.

[Clepto]

The big question is, will the difference you hear be worth the difference in price. There's also the issue of will you ever convert the system to multi channel in the future, in which case you might be better off going with the 800 series.

Unfortunately, I think you'll best be served by listening in store, with your music, and determining if the sonic difference is worth the cost.

[miner]

I started with the 804s powered by a Rotel RC-1070 pre and RB-1070 amp. I soon added a ASW800 sub. When my 1070 amp went to the shop I bought a RB-1092 amp and a RC-1090 pre soon after. With this amp/pre combo I would not have needed the sub. I, too, was initially going to get the 703 but my dealer made me a deal on some N804 that I could not refuse ($2700/pair). I am glad I got the 804. Choose carefully for your power amp and you will not require a sub.

[Grasynoll]

Audio Consultants has a good B&W inventory at their Chicago locations and normally has them both on the floor. I've had good luck with them over the years and they have a liberal trade up policy.

[Jmac]

Greetings

With the 800 series, one gains a number of important design details over the 700 series; certainly important for a moving coil, box loudspeaker.

1) The cabinets in the 800 series use the matrix bracing, which leads to a much less resonant cabinet than the lesser bracing used in the 700 series.

2) The use of Isopath (which is a semi-viscous gel encased in rubber) is used in particular re the mounting of the midrange and tweeter unit/tweeter housing, gives a degree of mechanical decoupling of the drivers from the cabinets, and in turn from each other. This will result in much less mechanically generated modulation distortion and colouration. There is no driver/cabinet decoupling that I'm aware of with the 700 series.

3) The use of first order crossovers between the mid and tweeter on the 800 series gives them a more integrated/coherent sound, and better timing - especially for a three way.

I currently own a full Naim-Audio 2 channel system to which I have added an Sony ES digital amp - initially as an add on for HT, but as I have since found it to exceed the performance of my Naim electronics overall, and my desire for an integrated music/HT setup, it is now the centrepiece amplification wise of my system. For the time being, I am using my Naim SBL's - they are a two - way, but with separate boxes for each driver, and you really can hear the advances in terms of clarity over a conventional cabinet.

I am interested in replacing them, for a speaker more suited to a combined 2 channel/multi-channel role, and in that regard I recently auditioned the 703, the 804S and the 803D.

Frankly I thought the 703 very good on the whole, but would not swap my present speakers for them, as an semblance of bass boom/cabinet resonance could be heard in the bass, plus the integration of treble and mids was not up to what I am used to, and consequently coherence and timing suffered.

Enter the 804S. Here, I was listening to a standard similar to my SBL's, certainly superior I thought in the mid and treble, and of course soundstaging, however I felt the SBL would still have the edge in terms of timing/coherence (just) and in bass speed and articulation.

Next up the 803D. Blown away comes to mind, and without being able to do an exact A/B, these speakers would have me moving the SBL's on and making space for them in my lounge in short order!

However, the price is a little rich for me (B&W is very expensive in Australia) and besides, I dream of 801D's etc... one day... :-)

I wil be waiting for my dealer to get the 803S in stock, as I'm hoping it will have better scale and weight in the bass than the 804, but of course be a little easier on the pocket than the 803D.

To sum up, all of us can afford only so much, and have to draw a line somewhere. I've had many years of interest in this hobby, and so with that in mind, I personally would Have to go to the 800 series - the 703's are very good, but in my situation an almost backwards move in some areas.

I would also venture that even if your ear does not quite yet pick up easily what the 800 series offer over the 703, it will be a speaker that will allow you to grow into it more, and also to stay with you longer as and if you upgrade other parts of your system, and accordingly if finances permit, would be my recommendation.

I sincerely hope this helps

All the best with your choice

John... 8)

[Sim reality]

Greetings
1) The cabinets in the 800 series use the matrix bracing, which leads to a much less resonant cabinet than the lesser bracing used in the 700 series.

Actually the 700 Series is matrix braced as well... The 800 series adds curved (It looks like it might be parabolic) cabinents to reduce resonance and re-emission of high frequency sound from sharp edges.

[joetama]

Honestly, I have the 703's and I love them. I looked at the 804's and my dream ones the 801D's and of course the 801D's were much better but I really didn't hear a $500-$750 extra sound quality in the 804's. Don't get me wrong they are totally awesome, but I really don't think they are worth that extra little bit, otherwise I would of payed it....

And $2700/Pair good god that was a steal....

[miner]

Honestly, I have the 703's and I love them. I looked at the 804's and my dream ones the 801D's and of course the 801D's were much better but I really didn't hear a $500-$750 extra sound quality in the 804's. Don't get me wrong they are totally awesome, but I really don't think they are worth that extra little bit, otherwise I would of payed it....

And $2700/Pair good god that was a steal....

The $2700/pair were for the N804 right after the release of the S model.

[Lotus 78]

I just recently had a chance to upgrade my 703’s to a pair of 804s for a $120+tax and passed it up. Mostly because the 804s where in black only. I send a lot of time with the 804s (1072 and a Rotel integrated amp in a very good room acoustically) The cabinet noise is noticeable in the 703 compared to the 804. The 703 are also a bit harsher in the HF then the 804’s. the mids and bass where about the same. Ditto for imaging and sound stage. In the end I would be happy with either in a 2ch.

[ZX10 Guy]

I started with the 804s powered by a Rotel RC-1070 pre and RB-1070 amp. I soon added a ASW800 sub. When my 1070 amp went to the shop I bought a RB-1092 amp and a RC-1090 pre soon after. With this amp/pre combo I would not have needed the sub. I, too, was initially going to get the 703 but my dealer made me a deal on some N804 that I could not refuse ($2700/pair). I am glad I got the 804. Choose carefully for your power amp and you will not require a sub.

I respectfully disagree. Although the N804 speakers have pretty nice bass extension, adding a sub totally changes the dynamics of the speakers. I've run my N804s with both a Carver TFM-25 and a Bryston 6B-ST. You definitely notice a lot of low end missing when my Velodyne HGS12 is taken out of the loop. Running a sub is important enough for proper bass reproduction and extension that I'm planning on upgrading my HGS12 to a DD18.

[Jmac]

Actually the 700 Series is matrix braced as well... The 800 series adds curved (It looks like it might be parabolic) cabinents to reduce resonance and re-emission of high frequency sound from sharp edges.

That is interesting news. I have not physically seen inside the cabinets of either of them (703/804) but going from B&W site information, and the few pictures in their various brochures, I thought/was under the impression that the bracing of the 700 series was akin more to the 600 series, with one vertical brace running across the width of the cabinet, top to bottom, and two horizontal braces; one to separate the mid in it's own enclosure (in effect the brace is a partition) and another (open) horizontal brace/divider between the two bass units; whereas the 'full matrix' in the 800 series is more like an bottle crate, with multiple vertical and horizontal dividers.

Still, I haven't physically seen inside the boxes as I say, so am happy to stand corrected if the 703's do use more sophisticated bracing than what is (very limited) shown on their brochures - it was from there that I was gleaning my information and commenting thus.

Best Regards

John.. 8)

[dyazdani]

Actually the 700 Series is matrix braced as well... The 800 series adds curved (It looks like it might be parabolic) cabinents to reduce resonance and re-emission of high frequency sound from sharp edges.

The curved sides (which are not parabolic) are designed to create a more solid cabinet thereby reducing resonances. The diffraction of HF sound though is minimized by the "tweeter on top" design and not the cabinet shape.

I haven't heard 703, but FWIW I preferred the CDM 7SE to N804 if price is considered. The 804s were clearly better, but IMHO, not enough to justify the price.

You're going to get opinions both ways, so you really need to listen for yourself and decide what YOU like.

[dknightd]

My thoughts . . .

narrowed the speakers down to 703 or 804s. While I realize the 804s are better overall speakers and I need to let my ears be the final judge,

I agree with this assessment. In addition to your ears, your wallet might also enter into the decision. For me, the 703 was the best comprimise between 604, 703, 804 (and paradigm studio 100). If my wallet had been fatter, or I was willing to get into debt for this, I would like to have included the 803D in my considerations.

I plan on using a Rotel RC 1070 Pre-amp with either a Rotel 1070 or 1080 amp.

I'd suggest the 200w/channel 1080 if you listen at loud volumes (which many of us do at least sometimes). I know the 703's really like an amp that can deliver lots of clean current, even at moderate listening levels - I assume the 804 is similar. If budget is an issue, I suggest the 703/1080 combo over the 804/1070 (It is not so much an issue of watts, but rather current and reserve power capacity)

With some of the bass heavy types of music, would you recommend a separate sub with either or both?

My personal opinion is that as long as the amp you use has the power required you do not need a subwoofer with either speaker (unless you listen to organ music, very big drums, or, some electronic music). Most music has very little energy below about 40HZ, and both do fine there.

One other consideration. In my opinion the price difference between the 703 and 804 (even though not that big) is better spent on room treatments and more music. It is amazing what a few hundred dollars of rigid fiberglass (and fabric to cover it) will do to a room ;x( And we all need more music :W

[Sim reality]

That is interesting news. I have not physically seen inside the cabinets of either of them (703/804) but going from B&W site information, and the few pictures in their various brochures, I thought/was under the impression that the bracing of the 700 series was akin more to the 600 series, with one vertical brace running across the width of the cabinet, top to bottom, and two horizontal braces; one to separate the mid in it's own enclosure (in effect the brace is a partition) and another (open) horizontal brace/divider between the two bass units; whereas the 'full matrix' in the 800 series is more like an bottle crate, with multiple vertical and horizontal dividers.

You are probably correct wrt the bracing being more sophisticated (especially in the larger 800 series such as 802 or bigger). But I think the size of the speaker also has an effect on how much room you have to brace it (the speaker still needs to encapsulate a minimun about of air to maintain an acceptable effecientcy.

The "technology" i believe is still called "matrix bracing".

[NonSense]

Ted

IMO, the gap in sound quality between the 703 and 804 increases as you apply better electronics. What you may consider a nominal difference when auditioning them using an RC1070/RB1070 combo, will become much more significant when driven using Classe gear for example. The 800 series really benefit from good electronics. This might be something to consider if you have an upgrade plan.

Have your dealer demonstrate both pairs on two differing levels of source gear. Then you can be confident with your decision.

[Andries]

Had a discussion with my local B&W supplier about upgrading from 703 to 803 but ultimately going to 802D. He insists that going from the 703 to the 803 is not that much of an improvement, especally given the price, but that the jump from 803 to 802 is much more dramatic. I guess this could be true even if you don't plan to go to something like the 802. But then we are all always looking for the better and ultimate. So think carefully before going from an already good 703 merely to the 803. The price difference may not justify the improvement.

By the way, it's not that the dealer is trying to coax me into spending so much more on the 802. I would have upgraded using the 703 -> 803 -> 802 route, through the same dealer anyway.

[dknightd]

You should definitely compare the speakers using the same electronics. Preferably with electronics similar to what you have, and/or what you plan to buy.

After you decide please come back and let us know what you decided and how you came to that decision. It might help the next person to come along. . .

[Ted]

Hello all,

I appreciate everyone’s input so far. I have a lot of food for thought now. While I’m a ways off from purchasing (I tend to research long before the deal), I feel like I may have some better background on what is going on when I listen to the two. Thanks everyone and I look forward to more input!

Ted

[Andries]

Dknightd, I will keep you updated. The electronics many change but that will not be before I upgrade to the likes of the 802 and thus the current and future speakers will be driven by the same unit. I already have a 200w Valve Audio Predator integrated amplifier which is perfect for both the 703 and the 802. I have the option of going to the higher specced Valve Audio amplifier - a pre amp with two dual monoblock amps, so that the system will be run in a bi-amped configuration.

Don't know if the forum rules allow me to post a link to Valve Audio's web site, but these are South African products with impressive specifications, now also supplied and supported in the USA via a big supplier.