How much power do i really need for B&W 703 / 804s?

[Parsonsk]

I was talking to my local dealer about the differences between the 703's and the 804's, when our conversation changed to amplifiers. My original plan was to buy a set of 703's with the Rotel rb-1080....a nice match. The speakers I’ve always wanted are the 804's, I love the looks, the sound everything except the price ($6k CDN), my dealer's comments were that if I was not planning to spend at least as much on the amp as I did the speakers, then stay with the 703's. The 804's are very hungry and need some goooood power like Classe, McIntosh or Linn. As it stands today I do not want to spend that much on an amp, it just doesn't fit the big picture.

What are your thoughts on these 2 speakers and what are you driving them with?

Do you think the Rotel rb-1080 has enough power to properly run the 804's or do you agree with my dealer that I would just be wasting my money?

...and please no comments that i need to listen for myself and spend as much as i can to avoid upgrading later, blah blah bla....

[junior77blue]

I don't think its a question of 'enough' power....but rather the quality of the power.

I don't think you would be wasting your money. You just might not hear the full potential of the speakers. But laws of diminishing returns comes into play with the better and better your equipment becomes. And honestly...you really do need to listen for yourself. If YOU can't hear the diffference between a Rotel and Classe...then why pay the extra money?? Same goes with the difference between the 703 vs 804.

I could hear a difference between the two and choose the 804.

I'm currently using adcom amplification.....which people on here would say is not up to par with nautilus series speakers. But for now, it works for me....when I'm ready to upgrade I will bring home an amp for demo and listen to it and compare. If I can't hear an improvement....then no need to upgrade.

[junior77blue]

Oh, and never listen to what a dealer has to say....sound is so subjective, especially when you get into high end equipment. He may have more sensitive ears than you for example.

[bcgator]

Parsonsk,

I think in this case it's very appropriate to tell you that you need to listen for yourself, and here's why...

I'm currently running a pair of B&W 805 Signatures. I've listened to them connected solely to a $600 Onkyo 701 receiver, then to them connected to that same Onkyo + $1000 Rotel 1075, THEN to them connected to the Onkyo + a $4000 Parasound Halo A51. Guess what I heard? Absolutely ZERO difference between any of them. To my ears, which may or may not be damaged from too many Van Halen and Def Leppard concerts (!!), that $4000 Parasound Halo A51 amplifier was basically a $4000 shelf decoration. I'm sure if I'd asked 100 dealers before hand, "which amplifier should I pair up with my $3500 805 Sigs - a $1000 Rotel or a $4000 Parasound?", most would have told me to use the Parasound just because it's common belief to spend as much on amplification as on the speakers. That's not a bad belief, or mistaken belief, but at the end of the day only your particular ears can tell you if all that money is well-spent or completely wasted. In my case, it was wasted.

I only heard a difference for myself when I connected my $3500 805 Signatures to a $1400 ATI 1506 amplifier - then I heard a noticeable increase in sound quality.

What's the lesson here? You may be depriving yourself of the speakers you really want, the N804, just because your budget isn't prepared to spend an equivalent amount on amplification. But what if those N804 would sound just as wonderful with a $1500 amp? It happened to me, it could happen to you.

If you really like the N804, listen to them with whatever amp you can afford - you may fall in love with them. And really, so what if spending an extra $6000 on an amp would give you that extra tiny little bit of performance? Is it really worth missing out on 98% of all that N804 magic just because you can't afford the expensive amp that may or may not give you that last 2% of performance? Buy the speakers you really want - trust me on this. You'll sleep better at night, and you'll smile from ear to ear every time you look at them. At the very least, give them a listen, with whatever amp you can afford - you may be very pleasantly surprised, no matter what the dealer says.

Eric
bcgator

[greggz]

I've listened to them connected solely to a $600 Onkyo 701 receiver, then to them connected to that same Onkyo + $1000 Rotel 1075, THEN to them connected to the Onkyo + a $4000 Parasound Halo A51. Guess what I heard? Absolutely ZERO difference between any of them.

Perhaps what you heard (or didn't hear) was limited by your Onkyo receiver in the middle and not the amp.

A $600 receiver fronting a $4000 amp and a pair of Sig805's isn't isn't against the law... but it ought to be.

[stewfoo]

Gregg, I agree with you.....kinda. In my HT I am using 803s as the front R/L being run by a rotel 1095/1065. What I noticed is that the B&W speakers are so darn revealing that all flaws (in the recording, electronics, wiring/cabling..etc) are very apparent. I think that rotel is probably fine for 700 series and below. Now, my personal oppinion is that if you can afford it long term I think that you make a stretch on the speaker. Buy something that you want to end up with. If you need to settle, settle on the electronics side.....Then, in time, upgrade. It has been a month for me and I realize that the 1095 was a mistake for my 803s. If this is a one time move for you, buy well matched components/speakers. Otherwise, join the world of neverending upgraditis.

[ZX10 Guy]

I ran my N804s for a long while with Carver TFM-25 amplification. I was quite satisfied with how N804s sounded with the Carver amp. I mostly ran the N804s with a biamped configuration though. I only ran the N804s in a single amped configuration when I had to send one of the TFM-25s back to Carver/Sunfire for repair. Since then I upgraded to a Bryston 6B ST. I'm still fidling with the configuration but haven't done too much as the system is going to be moved soon when my sound room is completed.

[RebelMan]

Parsonsk, Equity Audio the U.S. distributor of B&W and Rotel, states that many people use the Rotel RB-1080 to drive their B&W 803 speakers and they are very successful doing so. I happen to be one of them. The 803's are demanding and yes the 700 series would be a better fit "technically" speaking with the RB-1080. That said, if you are looking for the best sound that you can afford then the 804S and RB-1080 combination should suit you well.

[jlee]

804 with 1080 would sound wonderful. I've had that exact same setup. I later heard them with a 1090, which was more wonderful, and then Classe CAM-200, which was even more wonderful, and finally, CAM-350 which is outstanding... but that doesn't mean the 1080 won't sound DAMN good! Especially if it's your first setup... to appreciate the better stuff, first you must start at lower stuff... and Rotel is a great place to start.

I was talking to my local dealer about the differences between the 703's and the 804's, when our conversation changed to amplifiers. My original plan was to buy a set of 703's with the Rotel rb-1080....a nice match. The speakers I’ve always wanted are the 804's, I love the looks, the sound everything except the price ($6k CDN), my dealer's comments were that if I was not planning to spend at least as much on the amp as I did the speakers, then stay with the 703's. The 804's are very hungry and need some goooood power like Classe, McIntosh or Linn. As it stands today I do not want to spend that much on an amp, it just doesn't fit the big picture.

What are your thoughts on these 2 speakers and what are you driving them with?

Do you think the Rotel rb-1080 has enough power to properly run the 804's or do you agree with my dealer that I would just be wasting my money?

...and please no comments that i need to listen for myself and spend as much as i can to avoid upgrading later, blah blah bla....

[bcgator]

GreggZ, thanks for the input, and you're thinking the same thing I was also suspecting. I thought, "the Onkyo has to be the reason I'm not hearing any difference." So.....I did some more playing around. (I didn't mention all of these additional tests in my first email because I didn't think it made any difference to my point, but since you brought it up, my findings in that area are pertinent as well).

First, thanks to a willing local dealer, I did an A-B comparison of that Onkyo receiver vs. the Arcam 300 receiver, which prices at approximately 3+ times the cost of the Onkyo. What did I hear? No difference whatsoever. I even brought another person over to listen, just in case my ears really are that shot. Neither of us heard any difference between the Onkyo and the Arcam.

I then did another comparison running my CD player directly into tube equipment from Shanling and Audio Research (their $3000 unit). I wanted to take the Onkyo completely out of the loop and listen to the sound on some more expensive equipment, and compare that sound again to the Onkyo sound. Again, absolutely no difference in sound. The sound from my Onkyo $600 receiver was, to my ears and the person I invited over, the same as the sound generated from $3000 Audio Research tube gear running those 805 Sigs.

Am I saying that there is truly no difference in sound? No, not at all. What I am saying is that to me, and the person who listened with me, we could not hear any difference in sound between any of the amps we listened to, or the tube gear we listened to, even taking the Onkyo completely out of the loop. The only time I could achieve an increase in quality was with the ATI amp.

In saying all of this, I'm not endorsing ATI, or Onkyo. Nor am I bashing Parasound, Audio Research, Rotel, Shanling, or Arcam. All I'm saying is that from my experience, it's a mistake for someone to forgo purchasing the speakers they really want just because a dealer tells them that they'll also need a certain priced amp to run them. They may be just as happy with a $1300 amp as with a $4000 amp, and for them, like me, that $4000 amp may be a waste of money. They won't know until they listen. Which I believe is something we can all agree on! Isn't this fun?

BCGator

[junior77blue]

Bcgator...I'm in complete agreement with ya!!

[jlee]

GreggZ, thanks for the input, and you're thinking the same
In saying all of this, I'm not endorsing ATI, or Onkyo. Nor am I bashing Parasound, Audio Research, Rotel, Shanling, or Arcam. All I'm saying is that from my experience, it's a mistake for someone to forgo purchasing the speakers they really want just because a dealer tells them that they'll also need a certain priced amp to run them. They may be just as happy with a $1300 amp as with a $4000 amp, and for them, like me, that $4000 amp may be a waste of money. They won't know until they listen. Which I believe is something we can all agree on! Isn't this fun?

BCGator

My rule is this: Buy as high as you can hear the improvement (not just the DIFFERENCE... as sometimes going more expensive makes this worse, not better). If you cannot hear the improvement, buy the best bang for the buck (eg. Rotel since it pretty much doesn't lose as value and is very popular), train your ears, and then sample higher equipment over time... IF you can hear the improvement, and IF you think it's justified, THEN upgrade... if not, be happy with your Rotel or whatever gear you got. That being said, I do believe strongly in matching components performance and pricewise to avoid weak links. No point in spending $$$$$ on all the components and then cheapening out on 1 component will then clearly be the weak link, thereby pretty much wasting your $$$$ on the other components.

[Parsonsk]

I agree with most everything that's been said. From past experience, do you think the RB-1080 has enough power to drive the B&W 803's and to a point that you would be happy?

BCGator, i like what you've said about the receivers and i wonder if i would hear a difference with the B&W 803 doing an A/B comparison between the Rotel and say Classe or Mcintosh?

Although i like doing A/B comparisons i find it's only accurate at that moment. When you get everything home you wont have anything to compare and to tell you the truth, our memories are short when it comes to audio.

[misterdoggy]

One thing is for sure, a trained set of ears will notice things an untrained set of ear won't hear. You have to spend a lot of time listening, comparing and living with material to hear the difference.

IMHO who knows where the bottleneck might be in any system, but everything is just as important in the chain. Wires, cables, receiver, speakers, Amp, position in the room, the room itself.

I thought I was there and just recently added a Ayre Transport and am now hearing things I never heard before. Its only because I was "used" to what I had before I could ascertain a difference.

Its a tuff situation to be at a dealers while their flipping A/B and you're trying to decide. :huh:

[tboooe]

jlee:

I kinda agree with you. Since most of use cant afford to upgrade our entire system at the same time, I believe in upgrading in stages. I know dong this will reveal difficiencies in the system elsewhere but it is more of a reaslistic approach to upgrading for us normal folks. For example, right now I am seriusly thinking about getting the Cary 303/300 or MF A5 cd player. Both may be too "good" for my current system but I know it is something that wont be the weak link later when I upgrade my speakers and amp.

[RebelMan]

I agree with most everything that's been said. From past experience, do you think the RB-1080 has enough power to drive the B&W 803's and to a point that you would be happy?

Yes. In fact it has the power to drive the even more demanding Nautilus Signature 800's (S800s) -- yes the big ones. Here is a statement made in one review of the RB-1080.

After the Rotel had spent a few weeks with the Studios and a weekend in the country with the Paradigms, the even more wildly inappropriate B&W Signature 800s arrived. The RB 1080, which was still cooking in the system, was given the job of driving this "statement" loudspeaker.
...
In fact, I used the 1080 for about two weeks with the S800s, and never felt the need to switch to one of the other amps on hand—I was curious to do so, but felt no urgency. The S800 made it clear how good an amplifier the Rotel was; ...

The reviewer later cautioned the reader that one probably wouldn't want to get by with pairing the RB-1080 with the S800s but then he also said...

The Rotel RB 1080 is as powerful an amp as almost anyone needs,...

Convinced?

[xk8boy]

Parsonsk, remember it's not just about how much power, but also the quality of your components. If you cant afford to buy matching components together -90% ppl here can't- then its the upgrade path. Half the fun about this hobbie is about the learning process, about the software/music and hardware sides.

To me, choose first the speaker that you want in your dream system, cause they are going to make the biggest impact not only sonically but also of their physical appearance in your home. And dont forget about positioning. With the 804s, a couple of inches here or there is going to a make different. And also different speaker brands have their own characteristic sound.

Also, your speakers are the "interface" between you and your music and it is what your speakers produce what you hear, no matter how good and how powerful the rest of your components are. So you dont want the weakest links here.

Personally, I would go for the most I can afford on speakers (804s in this case) with the Rotels. One last thing and possibly a vary valid point to consider is that, speaker technology has pretty much matured now anything new will only be evolutionary, while with componenets we can expect technologies to jump heaps in years to come. Things to look forward to are, a winner on the music format and the digital amps revolution. With this in mind, it may be more economical to upgrade amps in the future than it is speakers.

[miner]

I am currently powering my N804 with Rotel RC-1070 pre and RB-1070 amp - am very satisfied with the combo. At approx 200 watts/ch in 4 ohms the amp performs flawlessly. I currently have no plans to upgrade my power source.

[Parsonsk]

Miner, good to hear.
How's the low end with the 1070, do you have a sub?
I wonder if the 1080 would increase the low end at all, i guess it would at low volumes...

I guess i just need to convince the other half that i've changed my mind from $4400 up to $6000....

...hmmm, as i typed that out, dollar sign, six, zero, zero, zero, something didn't seem right. $6000 for a set of speakers, am i NUTS???!!?? I could replace my 1990 Honda Accord for that much, put a dent in the mortage, fly to Europe, buy new furniture, finish the basement....wow i think i need to reavaluate (i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best)

*sniff* i need a hug :cry:

[jim777]

I am currently powering my N804 with Rotel RC-1070 pre and RB-1070 amp - am very satisfied with the combo. At approx 200 watts/ch in 4 ohms the amp performs flawlessly. I currently have no plans to upgrade my power source.

I never understood why I hated the 703's on the Rotel RC-1070/RB-1070 combo but fell in love with them on the McIntosh MA6500... and if the 800 series are more reveiling then my 703's, I just can't imagine the situation getting better! And with the number of times I've heard people running 800 series with a RB-1080, I suppose that the RB-1080 must be *alot* better than the RB-1070 that I heard. And also, I would be missing alot if I had a Rotel 1050 DVD player instead of my 1072 for CD playback...

So I guess I'm the one who's going to say that the electronics are important too, that's why they call it a sound *system* :lol:

Just my opinion

[miner]

Miner, good to hear.
How's the low end with the 1070, do you have a sub?
I wonder if the 1080 would increase the low end at all, i guess it would at low volumes...

I guess i just need to convince the other half that i've changed my mind from $4400 up to $6000....

...hmmm, as i typed that out, dollar sign, six, zero, zero, zero, something didn't seem right. $6000 for a set of speakers, am i NUTS???!!?? I could replace my 1990 Honda Accord for that much, put a dent in the mortage, fly to Europe, buy new furniture, finish the basement....wow i think i need to reavaluate (i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best, i don't need the best)

*sniff* i need a hug :cry:

The low-end is OK, not breathe taking. I may add a sub later on but for now the lows are fine. I just can't bring myself to spend >$1000 for a sub at this time. I have recently purchased a Rotel RCC-1055 CD changer to replace my Denon DCM370; my bass may improve with this recent upgrade. I have yet to hook up the changer.

[Kobus]

It has been a month for me and I realize that the 1095 was a mistake for my 803s.

stewfoo, why was the 1095 a mistake for your 803s. Was it power, sound, load tolerance or what?