Which would you keep B&W 802D or Revel?

[krellfan]

I am having a very difficult time deciding which speakers to keep. I have two sets of speakers:

B&W
802D
HTM2D
805S

Revel
Ultima Studio
Voice
Embrace

I have both sets in the same in the same room and I have been alternating between the two sets for a couple months at a time. Both systems are great. Each has has its strength and weakness.
I love the delicate highs of the 802D's but at times, I find the bottom a lttle too much and the mids slightly forward. The Revel Studio on the hand is more laid back and has better low end control but it lacks the warmth that the 802D has.

I am planning to build a dedicated HT room later this year and my wife has suggested that I keep the Revels in the HT and the B&W in the living room where it's current setup. As much as I like to keep both, I am having a hard time justifying it. Yes, I know I am very lucky to have wife that supports my money wasting hobby.

I have been leaning towards keeping the Revels in the HT room and sell the 802D and HTM2D. Keep the 805S in the living for casual listening.

I have been putting off making the tough decsion for a few months now but I think it's time.

Which would you keep?

[smjc99]

Which one do you like looks wise ? B&W 802 D or Studio's and is the bass on 802d's excessive ?

[Kal Rubinson]

Which would you keep?

I'm not saying. :W

Kal

[Gump]

Your wife sounds like a very wise woman.....I think I'd have to take her advice!

[johan]

Maybe you should ask that question in a "speakers" forum, members here are kind of biased....

[krellfan]

smjc99,

I prefer the look of the Revel. Most visitors have commented that both speakers are unique looking and great sounding. The 802D has a bit more bass and can sound less controlled than the Revels.


Kal,

Is there anything about the Revels that you miss?

Gump,

I would love to keep both pairs but I'll have to spend more $$ to buy better amps, CD player and preamp to get the most out of the 802D.

Johan,

I am hoping that some of the B&W supporters can convince me to keep the 802D's.

[RebelMan]

I would love to keep both pairs but I'll have to spend more $$ to buy better amps, CD player and preamp to get the most out of the 802D.

...

I am hoping that some of the B&W supporters can convince me to keep the 802D's.

I don't have any experience with Revel but I can tell you I just spent the better part of the weekend conducting an intense shootout between Ayre and Classe' on my 803S's and I can therefore tell you that with the right equipment behind the 802D's (hint hint) you would have no problem making up your mind! FWIW, I have also heard Rotel, Bryston (similar sound in some aspects to Krell) and Meridian with the 802D's and none of these fine brands come close to delivering the goods that Classe' and Ayre could.

Sell the Revel and upgrade your electronics.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal,

Is there anything about the Revels that you miss?

Not any more. When I had both, I dithered as you do. OTOH, if I had kept the Revels, I am sure I would have said the same. So, I am no help to you.

Kal

[Puoblo]

It sounds like Kal changed his references. It sounds like he did choose the B&Ws. Am I wrong?

[Kal Rubinson]

It sounds like Kal changed his references. It sounds like he did choose the B&Ws. Am I wrong?

Not wrong. But don't overestimate the significance as it is mostly a lateral move.

Kal

[Puoblo]

Hey Kal, one more question, what do you think of 803Ds?

[Kal Rubinson]

Hey Kal, one more question, what do you think of 803Ds?

Never heard them, afaik.

Kal

[drsiebling]

keep the 802Ds... all the way!

[JKalman]

Both... Like you said, very different sounds, why limit yourself to one or the other? I find myself annoyed at a lack of localization I notice in the 802Ds fairly often. Something I did not notice in the Watt Puppy 7s or the Revel speakers. The resolution is uncanny though, and while I can see exactly where each person is when listening to the Watt Puppy 7s, they don't quite have the enveloping effect of the 802Ds IMO... Trade-offs, what a pain in the arse. I would try comparing some harp, piano, and good drumming between the two. For harp, I would listen to Smashing Pumpkins' Cupid de Locke, for piano Pink Floyd's (SACD) Us and Them, and for Drums Pink Floyd's (SACD) Time.

I did more comparing of the Watt Puppy 7 than with the Revel speakers. I had originally compared the Revels and the 800Ds in White Plains NY, as well as some Maggies. The 800Ds won hands down IMO. I had a harder time between the Wilsons and the 802Ds, very different, yet both enticing displays of music. The Wilsons put me right in the studio sans enough attention to recreating room acoustics, which the 802D seems to excel at without localising as well. I remember the Revels having a similar effect on me, though it is over a year ago since I listened to the Revels... The Wilsons, while putting me in the studio and making the performers seem live, did not integrate the entire experience as well and made the different musical performers seem disjointed.

I know for myself, I think I can iron out the most of the problems I find in the 802Ds in comparison to the Wilsons I had been pining for, except the liveness factor. The Wilsons made the performers seem live and real, while the 802Ds make it seem like a recording, this might be a bad thing in terms of the Wilsons, but it was pleasant to listen to... I haven't found anything in or around the 802D price range that can create the acoustic ambience the 802Ds create, its ability to recreate the recording room in my listening area is sensational. With the 802Ds all the elements fit into a cohesive whole.

Sorry I don't have as much experience with the Revel Studios. This dilemma is tantamount to an audiophile's version of Sophie's Choice. Either choice you lose. Your best bet, IMO, is to take some of your favorite music and spend one day with each speaker.

Oh, I've noticed that placing very thick absorption panels around the first reflection points on the side wall, also in back of the speakers and in the corners, as well as playing with the toe-in angle have helped to cull the forward mids a little bit (I'm using 4" thick mineral fiber - 2' x 4'). The bass is hard to treat, but I'm currently in the process of renovating my room to take care of the reinforcement spots. Thankfully, I found a nice farfield setup where a reinforcement peak only falls on two bass range notes and the nulls on only one (F# at -10dB). I should be able to do better with enough time... Though it is sort of silly since I will likely be partitioning my room to make it a better ratio, but I keep learning every time I move things and take measurements, and it is addicting.

Kal Rubinson, along with some other Audiogoners, actually helped get me started on researching and working on my room acoustics via Audiogon Forums. My hats off to him (you) for his (your) tremendous help. That ETF program has been very useful in playing around with my room arrangement. You were right about the leather couch, it was creating larger null spikes and larger reinforcements when all three sections were aligned.

I'm considering a full room renovation via a consultant ATM. I've applied for the free applications from ASC and Auralex, and am considering a possible phase 2 via Rives. ASC gave some amazing free advice, some of which would save me money on buying extra treatments - a bass trap built into my room using existing room anomalies. Anyway, I'm rambling off-topic... I just wanted to throw out a thank you for the help while I was posting.

[Kal Rubinson]

You are (he is) welcome from me (him). BTW, your new experiences with room measurement should also caution you about making very subtle distinctions in strange and different rooms.

Kal

[JKalman]

You are (he is) welcome from me (him). BTW, your new experiences with room measurement should also caution you about making very subtle distinctions in strange and different rooms.

Kal

True.

The 800D and Revel Studios were in similarly shaped rooms at the same dealer with similar placement, as to the rooms exact dimensions, I can't be certain how close they were, but it was nearfield listening at low levels in both cases and they were symmetrically placed, etc. I've listened to the 800Ds at a few different locations and the 802Ds at a few different locations, and while room modes and placement have an effect, the basic character of that speaker compared to the Wilson is still noticeably different IMO.

I listened to the Wilsons in a larger room in New Haven, and I also heard the Wilsons in a similarly shaped room to the Revels and 800D, in Mt Kisco NY, and despite the difference in room size, the Watt Puppy 7 speakers still had a signature quality that was noticeable despite the change in room size, i.e. -- it still had that "live" sound and the disjointed separation of performers (timing wise) as well as concretely localizing them on the soundstage. The 802D and 800D despite a couple of different locations also retained those basic characteristics I listed.

My room at home, being as unrefined as it is is another issue... While the 802D has the same basic characteristics I've heard at dealers, the room hasn't been treated nearly enough yet, and it was never constructed properly to begin with to be as good sounding as the dealership rooms. It still has the basic sound quality of the 802D, I just have to sit in a near-field "Cardas" type setup to glean this until I have the room properly modified.

[JKalman]

Honestly, this room is a nightmare... I just decided to do the Phase 2 with Rives Audio to permanantly fix the biggest problems (e.g. - drop ceiling, two walls basically drywall nailed to concrete, irregularities in the room shape, long length dimension compared to width and height). All things considered a position close to the Cardas setup gave me a frequency response with only three small spikes to 10 dB past the 80 dB SPL and one to -12 dB below and another around -10 dB. It could be a lot worse, like some of the other positions I tried and measured in the room, with -20 dB dips or worse.

[krellfan]

Not an easy decision but I have finally decided to keep the Revel and sell the 802D and HTM2D. The dedicated HT room that I am planning to build will be slightly smaller and more enclosed than my present room which I don't think will be suitable for the 802D. I am afraid the bass might be overwhelming.

I guess that means I won't be in the B&W club anymore.

[RebelMan]

The dedicated HT room that I am planning to build will be slightly smaller and more enclosed than my present room which I don't think will be suitable for the 802D.

Decisions like this are never easy. As long as you are happy and have no regrets then you are doing the right thing. What will the dimensions of your dedicated HT be?

[krellfan]

Rebelman,

No regrets. The HT room will be about enclosed 16 x 22 ft. The current room is 18 x 25 and is open to about 1400 sq feet of area.

[Aussie Geoff]

I guess that means I won't be in the B&W club anymore.

Krell fan - you are always welcome here... Club B&W is not just for owners - we are very flexible, it's for wannabe owners, ex owners, tyre kickers, and lovers of fine music ... :banana:

Geoff

[kurtholz]

Hey Krellfan

good luck, i just went thru the same thing with the Revel Salons, and the 802D, also compared both with my Krell home theater standard & the Classe, also the McIntosh amps

i stuck with the 802D's, i like the Classe, but i prefer the Krell , significantly so,

of course, upgrading both at once did present a bit of a cash flow quandry, sticking with Krell ( which i already own) was an easier choice, Mcintosh just doesnt do it for me, though i can see where someone else could like it,

good luck with the revels, they are a fine speaker,

Kurt

[Gump]

These are the types of problems I wish I had.... :lol:

[krellfan]

Geoff - thank you. I may own B&W speakers again in the future so I could be a wannabe for the time being.

Kurt - I demo the 802D with Classe and Krell amps and preferred Krell. I use three Krell FPB 350Mcx monoblocks for the front channels.

Gump - it's fun having two sets of great speakers to play around with but sometime I feel it's very wasteful. All my friends think I am nuts which is probably true.

[rav934]

Listen to the Focal JMLabs 1027BE before you commit to the 802D.

[tboooe]

I did find the JMLabs to be remarkably similar sounding to the 802D. Both very detailed, refined, and smooth. Big price difference though which is why I settled on the 802D.

[rav934]

I thought the 802D was $12,000? A pair of 1027Be lists for $7,500......

[smjc99]

I did listen to JM Labs 1027 and Utopia Diva

The 1027 was nice soundng but not in the league of 802D IMHO- They were more compareable to Paradigm Signature S8's

The Utopia Diva a very nice looking speaker was close in performance to 802D's. I still think 802D's with classe is more nicer sounding overall than Diva's with Sim High end gear

In HT, 802D and Htm2d Blewaway Utopis Divas and the utopia center . When I listened to the same movie action sequence in 802D/HTm2D vs Utopia diva package the B&W setup sounded much better . I think Utopia center lacks in off axis sound compared to HTm2 D. Uptoa setup was very good but if ya compare to 802D setup, u can clearly notice the difference

[tboooe]

sorry, i meant the utopia be...

[coxhaus]

What a great thread. I am considering new speakers. Will either the B&W 802D and Revel Salons work well in a larger room? These speakers were high on my list.
I moved into a larger old pier and beam house with wood floors. I have either lost my bass or my upper mid range is too lively not sure. I was considering new speakers. My room is 25 x 23 which opens into a large dinning room and entry way making for a big area. The ceiling is 10 feet which makes for an even bigger air space. The problem is I don’t know if my speakers or my amp is too small. I currently have B&W 801 s2 with soft dome tweeters and Sonic Frontiers Power 3 amps. Will changing speakers or amp make a difference?

[krellfan]

A bit of sadness today . My 802D's were carried away to a new home this morning. The HTM2D is about to go very shortly as well and follow by the 805S.

Coxhaus,

The Salon and the 802D will both work well in large room. The Salon will require more power than the 802D. The Salon is around 86-87 dB/w and the 802D is about 90. I think the Sonic Frontiers Power 3 will work fine with the 802D but the Salon might require a bit more power.

You might moving the speakers or your listening position. It's possible that you are sitting at a null point of the room. If this is the case, it doesn't matter what speakers or amps you use there will be no bass.

[coxhaus]

Sounds like the issues I am having are room related not a speaker issue. I guess I will work with what I have until I figure out the room. I am going to move the speakers around. I was told to try to move my B&W 801 out 1/3 the distance of the room. However, my wife will nix the 1/3 distance theory for long term. I will also try to very the distance between speakers. Is there a rule for the distance between B&W 801 speakers based on the width of the room?
It is always sad to see old equipment go. I also switched my B&W HT over to Revel. I liked the center channel speaker better on the Revel. The tweeter was too high in the air on the B&W. My center channel sets on top of my screen. Maybe if my center channel was floor mounted it would be different.

[JKalman]

Sounds like the issues I am having are room related not a speaker issue. I guess I will work with what I have until I figure out the room. I am going to move the speakers around. I was told to try to move my B&W 801 out 1/3 the distance of the room. However, my wife will nix the 1/3 distance theory for long term. I will also try to very the distance between speakers. Is there a rule for the distance between B&W 801 speakers based on the width of the room?
It is always sad to see old equipment go. I also switched my B&W HT over to Revel. I liked the center channel speaker better on the Revel. The tweeter was too high in the air on the B&W. My center channel sets on top of my screen. Maybe if my center channel was floor mounted it would be different.

I've had the best results with a variation off of the Cardas method for speaker setup as far as a flatter frequency response. Cardas Method.

I've tried a bunch of other methods and variations on methods as well, but the further you get from the walls, the less the room interactions become an issue... 1/3rd placed the speakers too far out from the front wall, so I tried 1/5th and that was ok, but there was still a lot of room interference and the speakers' distance from each other caused the middle of the soundstage to be weakened even with a large toe in angle. The Cardas method will probably still be too much for the WAF, but 1/5th might be a decent compromise, if you can pull it off with the wife.

Another thing you can do is set up your measurments at 1/3 and 1/5 and then put tape from that point to the front corners of the room, mark off every inch a few feet from the wall, then move the speakers along those lines until you find a spot that sounds good to you. You can do the same with the Cardas method as well...

The thing to remember is that these methods are useful for finding a good starting point for fine tuning your location.

Here are a few more links:

Odd Fractions
WASP
Ethan Whiner's 38% Method
Immedia

[coxhaus]

Well I used the Cardas method for speaker placement and the speakers sound great. My bass returned. I also retubed my Sonic Frontiers Power 3 to KT88s. The bass and midrange is much better than the old 6550s. The power level must have gone up with the KT88s. The volume level I listen to is much louder. I was lucky and found 20 feet Audioquest Diamond X3 balanced cables which enabled me to move my equipment off to the side wall. This cleared up the middle and allows the speakers to image better.
I am very satisfied with my B&W 801s.