Varm and sweet amp choice for B&W703

[Eight-ball]

Hi, all. I´m currently using B&O´s Ice based monoblocks at 300W 8Ohm and 600W 4Ohm on each B&W703 speaker. My DVD player is Arcam Diva DV79 and Pre/Proc is Arcam Diva AVP700.

The case is; The sound is a bit on the harsh side, mid and tweeter is a tad bright, sharp. When the music contains bright "sss"és an "sh"´es are sometimes ear slicing at a bit high levels. Have tried different cables and room dampening with no/little luck.

So, do any of you have any recomandation on amping 703´s? Want a warm and sweet sounding amp. with no/little harshness. And havent got a 7xclasse´ monoblocks budget if you know what i mean. I was thinking perhaps 3xrotel rb-1090 or something up that road. All suggestions is welcome. And if someone have recomandations concerning cablechoices don´t bee shy.

Roy

[BlazeMaster]

not sure if this is what you wanted to hear, but if you are after a smoother highs...you might want to consider the B&W 800s series. I think you will find that the 800s tweeter are better at producing sweeter and cleaner high range.

[Eight-ball]

That´s right, it´s not what i wanted to hear. Because I´ve heard 703 played really sweet in other setups but cant remember the components used. Maybe I was too uppfront on explaining the sound. It´s not a big problem, but rather little but annoying problem. I´m sure it is possible to correct this little flaw with adjust the setup. So any recomandations concerning power amp with sweet sound is needed.

[BTB]

If you're willing to take a chance on lesser known products, have you ever come across the valve/transistor hybrid designs of Opera Audio's "Consonance" products, specifically their new "Calaf" amp. 200w per channel 8 ohms (pity no 4 ohm figure quoted ), dual mono design, tube line stage, transistor output stage with pretty decent specs. I might be able to home demo one soon for my 704's (I use Rotel RC 1070/RB 1070 at present). This amp has not been reviewed as yet, but their other stuff reviews pretty well. Maybe a possible solution... the "glow" of tubes plus the grunt of transistors. If this exact product doesn't interest you perhaps others like it? Depending on the availabilty of suitable designs where you live?

[Aussie Geoff]

Eight-Ball,

Jeff Roland's amplifiers are all characterised by their "warm sweet" sound... Even his Icepower based monopblocks like the 501s... worth thinking about...

Another option is the Krell Home Theatre Standard (5 channel) (better) the Krell KAV 3250 and 2250 or their (by the same designer) the Klipch Aarogon 8005 - which you can get a excellent deal on their Ebay store from time to time...

Geoff

[Briz vegas]

Eight-ball, I agree that the 700 series is more than capable of delivering nice highs when mated with the right equipement. The Quad 909 is in a similar price bracket to the Rotel 1090. It has an interesting sound with very detailed mids and the highs might suit your taste, however I don't think you should limit your search to amps known for having recessed highs, its more a matter of looking for a nice synergy. I was looking for an amp with less highs as a solution but found that all I really needed was an amp with better (more detailed and refined) highs. They are definitely out there.

[Eight-ball]

Great feedback fellas! Jeff Rowland ice is going to be audition soon. Keep recomandations coming.

[jim777]

I have 703's. I know that they can sound harsh with a Rotel RC1070/RB1070 combo and they are also the B&W's requirering the longest break-in time.

However, mine sounds very sweet. I use a McIntosh MA6500 and a Rotel RCD1072. I've also heard the N802 on McIntosh and it was enough to see that my setup is not harsh at all.

A few tricks that also help is basic acoustic treatment: a carpet on the floor if you have a wood floor, drapes, canvas, etc. - just good WAF stuff like that

[dknightd]

Near as I can tell the 703 is inherently a little on the forward side.
I'm not sure yet if I'll be happy with that.

I brought my pair home about 6 weeks ago. The somewhat grating
highs do go away after awhile. I've been playing them quite a bit
but even after an estimated 100+ hours they are still a little on the bright side. Maybe they still need more time. . .

I demo'ed them with various amps, but I'm afraid I did not take
too much attention to what they were. I didn't think I'd be able
to afford this model, so, didn't feel the need to get those specs.
I know the last place I listened used a BIG mcintosh amp.
I can't go back there to find out what exactly it was because
the store was going out of business that day. In a way that
is a shame, but, on the other hand I got the 703 for less than
normal price, and that put in my budget, so I took them home.

How long have you had your 703's. They do take awhile to break in.
I'm curious what others suggest for a good amp. I've tried them
at home with a Yamaha 777 and an Adcom 535. The Adcom
did better than the Yamaha. But if I decide not to sell these
speakers I'll likely want a better amp in the not too distant future.
They do need a good amp!

I'm disapointed to hear that room treatments did not help.
That is my next step. How did you treat your room?
I'm guessing that some first reflection treatments should
help calm these speakers down somewhat.

After more carefull listening it seems to me the problem
with these speakers is a peak in the responce at about 4 khz,
about where the midrange-tweeter crossover is. I think perhaps
there is too much overlap between tweeter and midrange
near the cross over. My hope was that room treatment might
help absorb some of the overlap due to difference in radiation
patterns of the two drivers. I like, I think, the FST midrange
but it does IMO tend to put out a little more energy in the
upper midrange than it does in the lower midrange - hence
the "forward" sound of these speakers. The slight aparent
overlap between midrange and tweeter makes this worse.
But overall it is a beautiful sounding midrange driver so I'm
reluctant to give it up (and my budget does not allow for steps
up the B&W range - If I sold these speakers I'd probably have
to drop back to the Paradigm studio 100 v3 based on what I've heard)

I think B&W voiced these speakers to show off the FST midrange driver.
And they might have taken this too far.
If B&W ever does a 703 s2 it would not suprise me if they tweaked
the crossover and moved the midrange down a little - so far it
seems to me there is a little too much gap between the woofers and
midrange, and a little too much overlap between the midrange and tweeter.

[jim777]

dknightd, your 703's will continue to calm down a little. You will also get better bass. Here I mean natural bass (like for a double bass) and not "chest hitting" bass.

These speakers ask for much patience... but they are rewarding afterwards

And yes, they need great amplification (and source), as for any FST B&W if you want to hear/get what you paid for!

[grit]

I owned 703's for about 1 year and ran them on off a Rotel 1075. Break-in certainly helped. I never found them to feel too harsh to handle, but they are (IMO) bright/forward. This may sound like an odd play, but you might try demoing a different player. Also (and a much cheaper test), have you tried running analog outputs from your DVD to your pre/pro (rather than the digital connection)? I've heard it make a surprising difference in other brands at this price point.

[dknightd]

Thanks for the encouragement jim. Right now I'm using a Mac computer as
my transport (love that point and click interface to my music) feeding
a Benchmark DAC1 via ebay glass optical toslink > midgrade RCA cables > yamaha 777 preamp section > adcom 535> b&W 703. It sounds pretty good!
(as long as what I'm feeding it is good - the Dac1 and 703 are pretty
unforgiving of bad recordings! But that is understandable and appreciated)
I think my weak links are: 1st overly reflective room, 2nd mediocre,
but competant, preamp and slightly less powerfull amp than these speakers need. After treating my room for first reflections, and adding broadband
compressed fibreglass absorbers in the corners, I'll go after the preamp
and amp parts. I'm not in a big hurry. I like to think that room
treatments will get me close to where I want to be. In the meantime
I'll have more time for the speakers to break in, and for my ears
to get used to them. I'm pretty sure the speakers need more
power - I'm tempted to get a second Adcom 535 and biamp them.
But maybe I'd be better off getting one big amp. Thoughts?
David

[jim777]

David, if you want sweet yet detailed sound, consider a McIntosh MA6500 integrated. The DAC1 should be fine, as people seem to say that it is better than my RCD1072. Also play with cables, as they made a great difference in my case. You may need to find a cooperative dealer for that

So try to describe what sound you are looking for, maybe it will be easier for people to make suggestions. I just assumed that you wanted something sweeter but still detailed like me...

[dknightd]

I want sweet and detailed, but i want it to thump when the music calls for it.
The 703 seems do fine for both, but, for some reason it still sounds a
little foward (bright) for my tastes. Maybe my taste will change, or maybe the
speakers will continue to change. I don't want to take away the detail, but,
I wouldn't mind taking away what I percieve as an unnatural peak/wierdness
at about 4khz. The 703 do voices and acoustic instruments better
than anything else I heard in their price range. But they are not quite
right IMO - too little lower midrange - too much upper midraange.
It could be my room, it could be my preamp, it could be something
something else. It could just be I need to get used to them. At about 100
hours the bottom end of male vocals seemed to come back, so it could
just be a break in thing.

[Eight-ball]

The room treatment consisted in proffesional panels specially design for mid-high. And all the first reflection surfaces including roof has been treated with little or no effect. Also tried on the walls beside and behind the speakers. I´ve been playing on them for about 250-300 hours, it would suprice me if they require longer break in than that. But still, i am using Ice power who are known to be bright/harsh in some setups. I´m using analog for cd sound and coax for dac.

In the beginning I used kimber cables all around, and later on switched to solid copper core 6mm2 for the speakers and solid copper core for signal cables. And this helped alot. Kimber is known to be a little to detailed, hence bright sound.

Think macintosh would be an intresting amp for 703´s. 2nd hand offcourse.

[JohnAng]

When i first auditioned the 703's it was with the arcam pre-power and YBA cd player also and sounded way to bright for my liking.
I almost didn't buy them because of it.
I now have them at home with rotel 1098 and 1080, at first they were still a tad bright on some recordings but have now settled own and sound very nice. The midrange is still slightly forward sounding.
I recently hooked them up to a MF A5 pre-power combo and still using the rotel 1072 cd player and the sound was so much more balanced that i am now looking at these amps to replace my rotels.

[mr_m687]

I have owned the new B&W 804S for a little less than a year now. They have always sounded forward/harsh with no mid bass. This is just how B&W's sound. This is exactly why I'm selling my speakers never to buy B&W again. You will never change the characteristics of the speaker, I've tried. Do yourself a favor and listen to some Aerial Acoustics 7B's or Thiel 2.4's. This company needs to put some kick into their mid bass/lower end and they would have a more balanced speaker everyone could enjoy. Don't get me wrong they sound good at low volumn, but turn it up and your ears bleed. B&W's just have no life to them, flat sounding, harsh, no mid bass etc.

[jim777]

I have owned the new B&W 804S for a little less than a year now. They have always sounded forward/harsh with no mid bass. This is just how B&W's sound. This is exactly why I'm selling my speakers never to buy B&W again. You will never change the characteristics of the speaker, I've tried. Do yourself a favor and listen to some Aerial Acoustics 7B's or Thiel 2.4's. This company needs to put some kick into their mid bass/lower end and they would have a more balanced speaker everyone could enjoy. Don't get me wrong they sound good at low volumn, but turn it up and your ears bleed. B&W's just have no life to them, flat sounding, harsh, no mid bass etc.

I'm surprised of such a report. I know that 703's (and probably 804S's too) do not produce heart thumping bass, but I find that the bass end sounds very natural. With great electronics, instruments like the double bass sound like as they were in my room, with full body and balance (I sometimes get to hear the real thing playing next to me so I'm sure). Drums also sound as if my friend was playing next to me. Some people don't know that a real drum or even a piano are often ear-breaking in real life (harsh..). Others have very bad room acoustics (not even a small carpet on the floor) that makes highs unbearable.

What kind of music is lacking bass (mid-bass) for you and what do you mean by loud volumes? I sometimes listen to Symphony X at max volume and it sounds great, very involving. I even had a guest once that cried listening to one of her jazz songs.. I think that she found life in B&W speakers

So I hope you won't take this for some kind of attack, it isn't; I'm just curious to know why you are not happy with your B&W's. What do you listen to, what electronics, what volume..? Sorry to hear that you are not happy with B&W..

[tboooe]

I dont entirely disagree with mr. m687. My feeling is that B&W is designed more for vocals (jazz, etc) and not for hard driving music such as rock. This emphasis on the midrange creates in my opinion incredibly real reproduction of vocals and music that is not bass heavy. Is the bass on the B&W fantastic and slammin? No. Is it accurate and tight? Yes.

Jim777 is also correct in his statement that electronics have a very substantial affect with B&W. I have been trying out different preamps (tube and ss) and I was astounded how different the sound is from my 804S. I think the reality is that B&W is a very accurate speaker that faithfully reproduces whatever is fed to it.

I also agree that B&W is forward. I like this because I prefer a holograpic soundstage. I have heard other speakers where the sound is pushed back behind the front plane of the speakers. To me this disengages the listener from the music. i like a soundstage that sounds like front row at a live show.

All this being said, every one is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has to choose speakers that fit their listening and music preferences. I hope you have better luck with your next speaker purchase.

[jim777]

I agree with you tboooe - I think that you well described the B&W style.

And I also hope m687 gets better luck the next time

Maybe with something like Paradigm, I think they can be bass heavy.. (not sure, I only heard them quick once)

[BTB]

Hi 8ball

Don't know if you're still amp hunting, if you are, have you ever listened to Plinius amps? I had the opportunity to hear their 9100 (120wpc) integrated recently, which was definitely smooth and warm, without sounding slow or vague either. They also make a 200wpc (integrated) design (Model 9200) but also have a selection of pre/power seperates as well if that's more like what you need?

[tboooe]

YES! The Plinius amps and preamps are definitely very nice sounding. I heard the M8 preamp with my 804S and it sounded so smooth...