B&W grills-off, possible harm?

[Eliav]

Hi
I love the look and sound of the HTM3s and 803s with grills off. I however always put it back when i finish listening to music so to keep it "clean" and "protected".My HT room is OW kids free/wife free/smoke free/ direct sunlihght free......
Is there any potential harm if left with grills off? how do you guys keep your speaker's grills ?

Thanks
Eliav

[PewterTA]

If there's nothing left to hurt it, there's no harm in having them off...unless you have friends that like to touch neat looking things... ha ha.

Just leave them off if you like!

As for the grills, just place them somewhere they won't get bent or destroyed. Either stand them up vertically or lay them down horizontally.

[Eliav]

If there's nothing left to hurt it, there's no harm in having them off...unless you have friends that like to touch neat looking things... ha ha.

Just leave them off if you like!

As for the grills, just place them somewhere they won't get bent or destroyed. Either stand them up vertically or lay them down horizontally.

Seriously, one of my friends who'd never seen a B&w speaker before was gently trying to rock the tweeter off the 803s thinking it was a microphone.. almost gave me a heart attack... :twisted: ...
Eliav

[miner]

Seriously, one of my friends who'd never seen a B&w speaker before was gently trying to rock the tweeter off the 803s thinking it was a microphone.. almost gave me a heart attack... :twisted: ...
Eliav

Same thing happened to me - they thought it was for Karaoke. :M

[Kevin P]

No pets either? Then you can leave 'em off. But if you have cute little kitties with sharp claws, you might want to leave them on.

[worldys]

Same thing happened to me - they thought it was for Karaoke. :M

lol

the first thing my dad did when he saw my shiny new 803s was push on the aluminum tweeter diaphragm (to see what the material was? who knows what he was thinking), luckily he didn't push hard, but boy did i groan

s

[Clepto]

Also, if you have kids... keep em on (;

[aphexist]

the first thing my dad did when he saw my shiny new 803s was push on the aluminum tweeter diaphragm (to see what the material was? who knows what he was thinking), luckily he didn't push hard, but boy did i groan

Do you have the tweeter grilles off?

[Eliav]

No pets either? Then you can leave 'em off. But if you have cute little kitties with sharp claws, you might want to leave them on.

No kittens around.
Is dust building up on top of the rohacell/Kevlar an isuue ? do you then have to dust your drivers? :lol:
Eliav

[RebelMan]

Speaker grills remain off until I have company, then back on they go, but the tweeter grill never gets removed. I use an ultra soft brissle brush to keep the drivers clean and only 100% cotton cloths on the cabinet to clean and buff the surface.

[Karma]

HI All,
I usually keep the grilles mounted but once in a while, when I want to feel like an audiophile, I'll take them off for a few days. It's for show only since it gives no audio advantage. I have a large parrot in the room. They give off a very fine talc like powder, called powder down, which gets all over the drivers and they need to be carefully dusted a la Rebelman's instructions. That's why I keep the grilles on.

Lately I have been trying to take decent pictures of my all black system. I've had a very hard time even with flash. Everything looks like black blobs. I'm going to remove the grilles for a pic series. Maybe that will let them be seen. Won't help with the all black subs though. They will still look like black blobs which, in reality, they are.

Sparky

[Eliav]

HI All,
I usually keep the grilles mounted but once in a while, when I want to feel like an audiophile, I'll take them off for a few days. [It's for show only since it gives no audio advantage. I have a large parrot in the room. They give off a very fine talc like powder, called powder down, which gets all over the drivers and they need to be carefully dusted a la Rebelman's instructions. That's why I keep the grilles on.

Lately I have been trying to take decent pictures of my all black system. I've had a very hard time even with flash. Everything looks like black blobs. I'm going to remove the grilles for a pic series. Maybe that will let them be seen. Won't help with the all black subs though. They will still look like black blobs which, in reality, they are.

Sparky

Hi sparky
I actually CAN hear a difference when the grills are off.
RebelMan : Where did you get this ultra gentle brush from ?
Thanks
Eliav

[dyazdani]

HI All,
I have a large parrot in the room. They give off a very fine talc like powder, called powder down, which gets all over the drivers and they need to be carefully dusted a la Rebelman's instructions. That's why I keep the grilles on.

Yeah, I have two now, used to have four. That stuff gets everywhere. They are in another connecting room, so I don't think their down gets to mine.

[Alloroc]

Same thing happened to me - they thought it was for Karaoke. :M

Even dumber..... I brought a couple of buddies to my local B&W dealer recently and they embarrassed the s**t out of me by asking(for real) why the speakers has marakas stuck to the top of them. And these are intelligent, or so I though people!

[PewterTA]

All I use to dust the drivers off is a vacuum with the large round hose and just hold it close to the driver. All you need to do is put about a 1/2 inch and it will suck up anything on the driver, plus you aren't physically touching the driver with a brush. It's a lot like taking a brush to a car, you put small wear and tear marks (scratches in the clear coat for a car)...I just can't do it.

So all I do is take the vaccum and place the tip of my finger over the one edge of the hose so my finger would touch the driver before the plastic of the hose and clean them that way. It works perfectly find that way.

OT:

Top row Diamond, Bottom row gold?

[Karma]

HI Pewter,
Obviously, you have never had to deal with powder down. It is so incredibly fine that a vacuum won't completely remove it unless you actually run a brush against the surface. Then, you have to dust with a cloth to get the surface completely clean. It's just not worth keeping the grilles off.

I've had some serious talks with my bird about his anti-social habits but it does no good. 8)

Sparky

[Phil Rose]

It's been a long time since I've read my N802 users manual but, I recall that it stated that the speakers were voiced with the main grills off and the tweeter grills on. They went on to say don't remove the tweeter grills. Check your manual and I imagine you'll find similar wording.

I listen with the main grills off on my mains for stereo but, don't bother removing the grills on the center and surrounds for MC/movies. I did notice an improvement in sound by removing the grills.

[aphexist]

I actually CAN hear a difference when the grills are off.

pfff.

You mean after you get up, remove both the grilles, and sit back down (20 seconds?) you THINK you can hear a difference. Even if you have someone else removing the grilles for you while the material plays, you are probably hearing the sound change after the person moves from in front of the speaker after the removal.

Furthurmore, considering the width and density of the fabric through which the sound is passing and the frequencies that are passing through it (~40Hz - 4kHz), it is pretty unlikely that the flimsy grille is preventing much audio from reaching your "golden ears."

[Eliav]

pfff.

You mean after you get up, remove both the grilles, and sit back down (20 seconds?) you THINK you can hear a difference. Even if you have someone else removing the grilles for you while the material plays, you are probably hearing the sound change after the person moves from in front of the speaker after the removal.

Furthurmore, considering the width and density of the fabric through which the sound is passing and the frequencies that are passing through it (~40Hz - 4kHz), it is pretty unlikely that the flimsy grille is preventing much audio from reaching your "golden ears."

It's my golden ears or your bad ones.
The fabric is an acoustic barrier that once removed makes the speakers sound better, indeed, to MY golden ears.

B&W manual for the 800 series speakers : " for most discerning listening, remove bass and midrange grills.." i guess b&w wanted us to THINK we can hear the difference :lol:
Eliav

[akhter]

Seriously, one of my friends who'd never seen a B&w speaker before was gently trying to rock the tweeter off the 803s thinking it was a microphone.. almost gave me a heart attack... :twisted: ...
Eliav

Same thing happened to me!!!!

[JimTW]

It's my golden ears or your bad ones.
The fabric is an acoustic barrier that once removed makes the speakers sound better, indeed, to MY golden ears.

B&W manual for the 800 series speakers : " for most discerning listening, remove bass and midrange grills.." i guess b&w wanted us to THINK we can hear the difference :lol:
Eliav

With my current system, I can hear a difference, although very
minor, with the grill ON and OFF the mains.

[RebelMan]

Where did you get this ultra gentle brush from ?

Believe it or not I found it in the automotive section at WalMart a few years ago. It it so delicate and so fine that it applies very little friction on the surface being treated. It does exactly what it should no more no less. It can remove very fine particles from delicate surfaces without leaving any impressions or streaks of its own. I don't know if they carry them anymore but it might be worth a look see. It fits one hand perfectly, has a retractable brush cover and is blue in color.

[RebelMan]

It's my golden ears or your bad ones.
The fabric is an acoustic barrier that once removed makes the speakers sound better, indeed, to MY golden ears.

I concurr. Some people have more acute hearing than others.

When was the last time you had your hearing checked aphexist? According to the doctor, my hearing ability was off the chart, i.e., perfect! :P

[RebelMan]

Furthurmore, considering the width and density of the fabric through which the sound is passing and the frequencies that are passing through it (~40Hz - 4kHz), it is pretty unlikely that the flimsy grille is preventing much audio from reaching your "golden ears."

Soundwaves behave like all waves do, they reflect, they refract and they diffract. Any object no matter how great or small will impact the motion of the wave. I grant you that the subtle effects of the material used in the construction of the B&W grills may not be immediately obvious, they are nevertheless very real.

[Eliav]

Believe it or not I found it in the automotive section at WalMart a few years ago. It it so delicate and so fine that it applies very little friction on the surface being treated. It does exactly what it should no more no less. It can remove very fine particles from delicate surfaces without leaving any impressions or streaks of its own. I don't know if they carry them anymore but it might be worth a look see. It fits one hand perfectly, has a retractable brush cover and is blue in color.

Thanks RebelMan. I'll check with Wal Mart.
Cheers
Eliav

[Guy]

There is definately a sound difference with the grilles off to my ears.

In a small room like mine (3x4m) I find the sound with the grilles off too direct (bright) where with the grilles on it seems more diffused (warmer).

[Eliav]

There is definately a sound difference with the grilles off to my ears.

In a small room like mine (3x4m) I find the sound with the grilles off too direct (bright) where with the grilles on it seems more diffused (warmer).

welcome to the "golden ears" club :lol:
Eliav

[aphexist]

I think you old-timers should list your age along with the claims of golden ears. Welcome to the snake oil club.

Hahahahahahahaha. Ho ho ho ho ho. Heeheehee. snicker. snort

[2bluechris]

Grilles On / Off & sound ...

In most cases the change of the sound is not much owing to the cloth as that is very thin and almost acoustically trnsparent . Most of the sound difference is owing to the grille frames . The drivers radiate sound hemispherically over part of their band-width and some of this sound reflects off the grille frame , or , is diffracted by the encounter with the solid object of the frame . Some of the reflected / diffracted sound arrives at the listeners' ears , and as this is only slightly delayed in arrival time from the direct sound from the drivers it is not interpreted by the brain as echoes or ambience , but as phase shifted interference which causes reinforcement of some frequencies and partial cancellation of other frequencies - whichever depends on the wavelength and time delay . This is more audible with some types of recorded material than others depending on the listener's conditioned expectation for the type of material . The conditioned expectation is formed subconsiously by all previous listening experiences to various types of music , and the equipment and location it was heard in . A person can change their conditioned expectation by concentating on the timbre of the sound for the grille off versus grille on experiment . Some grille frames reflect/diffract to greater/lesser degrees than others , and in some cases distortion in the speakers' drivers is of such greater magnitude than the amount of grille frame effect that the then such relatively small grille frame effect is audibly masked by the drivers' distortion . Of course distortion is not likely to be the case with the better quality B&W loudspeakers .[INDENT] Alternately , for people who don't hear any difference - don't worry about it - but leave the rest of us free to experiment and maximize our listening enjoyment . best wishes , Chris .

[Audiophiliac]

I can hear a difference with and without the grilles.

The B&W arent as widely different as Paradigms. Paradigm voices their speakers with the grille ON, so when you remove it, the tweeter sounds too bright and harsh.

[Indytown]

I can hear a difference with and without the grilles.

The B&W arent as widely different as Paradigms. Paradigm voices their speakers with the grille ON, so when you remove it, the tweeter sounds too bright and harsh.

your kidding

[Indytown]

I can hear a difference with and without the grilles.

The B&W arent as widely different as Paradigms. Paradigm voices their speakers with the grille ON, so when you remove it, the tweeter sounds too bright and harsh.

do I take you seriouisly :rofl:

[Kal Rubinson]

do I take you seriouisly :rofl:

Dunno. I have no data on the B&Ws but lab measurements of the Paradigm Studio 60s confirm significant differences between grille on and grille off.

Kal

[Audiophiliac]

Yep. I owned 2 pair of Studio 60 V.2 in my theater at one time, and they sounded much better with the grills on.

[caleb]

Oh dear !

Different thread - same old crap.

[2bluechris]

To Caleb , Senior Member .

Caleb , why is this "same old crap" ? - Chris .

[jlr_1304]

Removing the tweeter grill do sound harsh on N802.

I've always removed those cheap looking grilles (bass and medium) I cant believe how cheap the grilles are on older N802. The ones on 802D are much more sexier.

[caleb]

Caleb , why is this "same old crap" ? - Chris .

If you have been here long enough this thread comes up time after time.

Same old crap - I hear a difference - I dont hear a difference, then comes all the slagging off about people cant hear properly.

Very tiresome really.

Why can't people just realise that sound is in the ear of the listener?

[Kal Rubinson]

If you have been here long enough this thread comes up time after time.

Same old crap - I hear a difference - I dont hear a difference, then comes all the slagging off about people cant hear properly.

Very tiresome really.

Why can't people just realise that sound is in the ear of the listener?

Because (1) it's simplistic and (2) it's not true.

There are audible differences in SOME speakers with the grille on compared with the grille off and these differences are supported by objective measurement. Now, if you want to argue what sounds better, then that is an old and unending story.

Kal

[2bluechris]

To Caleb and Kal Rubinson .

Caleb , I suppose the subject comes up regularly because new-comers to the Forum want to know about such , and that is fair enough . I understand your point about the "slagging off" - indeed it is tiresome , however I usually don't read far into those posts . "... sound is in the ear of the listener ..." - well , the sound goes all round the room and reflects off various objects and hopefully sufficient of it goes through the ear of the listener to the brain to please the listener regardless of whether he/she is interested in speaker grilles' effects . This is why I posted originally - #30 in this thread .[INDENT] Kal , good post , I agree . Which of your articles reached via your Stereophile link contains the measurements of the Paradigm Studio 60 grille effects that you mentioned earlier in this thread ? - Chris .[ I wish I could get the INDENT function to work !!]

[Kal Rubinson]

Why, the review of the Paradigm Studio/60, v3, of course. You can find it with a search as I would have to do. Compare my comments with JA's.

Kal

[2bluechris]

To Kal Rubinson

OK , I found it . I had thought it was in one of your "Music In The Round" columns , as those are where your Link goes to , but , thankyou - I have now found it in Reviews . Yes I see quite a significant amount of effect measured owing to the grille , and interesting that the Manufacturer seems to have designed a grille which improves the frequency response plot . I have read that a few manufacturers attempt this - it would be good if more manufacturers did . I found a grille effect measurement in one of the LS3/5A "Stereophile" reviews also . I have often wondered about the Cavity Effect with the woofer mounted behind the baffle and thus firing through a short cylinder in the LS3/5A , but that is off the topic in a B&W Forum . Perhaps "Stereophile" will consider reviewing the new 805S and try a grille measurement if listening reveals any significant on/off difference . - Chris .