Question for those of you who went through the 804 vs 805 debate

[Karma]

HI Jeff.
I share your goal of a pure path for music but I do it completely differently. Try this on for size. You might like it. I think it is even more pure than your setup because for music no processor is involved at all.

I will describe the hookup. Stay with me cause it's a little complicated. I use my Denon DVD 3910 play everything machine for both CD's and DVD's. For music I use the coax digital output to provide serial PCM to my California Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC which provides the analog signal. This is delivered to Input 1 of my Krell KAV280P preamp which I select as my source.

The preamp output goes to two places. It drives two of the three channels of my Krell KAV3250 power amp and provides the L and R line inputs to my dual subwoofers through a subwoofer switchbox. The switchbox allows me to select either the preamp output for music or the LFE outout from my AV receiver for movies as the sub input. Thus, the Krell preamp drives two of the three Krell power amp inputs which, in turn, drives the main speakers.

For movies, the Denon 3910 drives my Denon 3805 AV receiver with the digital Denon link. I run the 3805's preamp L and R pre out to Input 2 on the Krell KAV280P preamp which I put into the Theater mode (provides unity gain). The 3805's center channel pre out drives the third channel on the Krell 3250 amp which drives the center speaker. The surround channels are driven by the 3805 internal amps.

In summary, the Krell pre and power amp drives the main L & R speakers, the Krell power amps third channel drives the center speaker from the center preamp output of the 3805, and the Denon 3805 drives the surround speakers. Whew!!!!

With this hookup the path for music is almost as direct as one provided by a stereo only system. The only impurity is the subwoofer switchbox which is completely passive. It works well and is easy to use and maintains channel calibrations which is very important to me.

Sparky

[JimTW]

For music I use the coax digital output to provide serial PCM to my California Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC which provides the analog signal. This is delivered to Input 1 of my Krell KAV280P preamp which I select as my source.

Karma,

How come I can't find Cal Audio's website? Are they out of business? =(
Was trying to look up some info about the DAC you were talking about.

Tks!

[JKalman]

HI Jeff.
I share your goal of a pure path for music but I do it completely differently. Try this on for size. You might like it. I think it is even more pure than your setup because for music no processor is involved at all.

I will describe the hookup. Stay with me cause it's a little complicated. I use my Denon DVD 3910 play everything machine for both CD's and DVD's. For music I use the coax digital output to provide serial PCM to my California Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC which provides the analog signal. This is delivered to Input 1 of my Krell KAV280P preamp which I select as my source.

The preamp output goes to two places. It drives two of the three channels of my Krell KAV3250 power amp and provides the L and R line inputs to my dual subwoofers through a subwoofer switchbox. The switchbox allows me to select either the preamp output for music or the LFE outout from my AV receiver for movies as the sub input. Thus, the Krell preamp drives two of the three Krell power amp inputs which, in turn, drives the main speakers.

For movies, the Denon 3910 drives my Denon 3805 AV receiver with the digital Denon link. I run the 3805's preamp L and R pre out to Input 2 on the Krell KAV280P preamp which I put into the Theater mode (provides unity gain). The 3805's center channel pre out drives the third channel on the Krell 3250 amp which drives the center speaker. The surround channels are driven by the 3805 internal amps.

In summary, the Krell pre and power amp drives the main L & R speakers, the Krell power amps third channel drives the center speaker from the center preamp output of the 3805, and the Denon 3805 drives the surround speakers. Whew!!!!

With this hookup the path for music is almost as direct as one provided by a stereo only system. The only impurity is the subwoofer switchbox which is completely passive. It works well and is easy to use and maintains channel calibrations which is very important to me.

Sparky

That wasn't hard to understand and doesn't sound complicated at all. Your explanation was a bit more tedious than it needed to be, due to your repeating things, but otherwise it was a typical HT/Audio setup.

I don't like that much complexity in an audio portion of a system. I feel the more you complicate an audio system, the more you create small sound problems along the way to the speakers. I say this not as a contemplation, but from personal experience. As innocent as that switchbox seems, I bet it does introduce small hiccups and leaches quality out. My Y-cable adapters when I was bi-amping introduced this kind of problem, and that was just one extra link of wire.

I use bypass modes as much as possible, and will only complicate my HT modes if I must complicate something. I want my system to be more audio purist in nature. So I strive to keep that side of things as zen as possible, while adding the complexity on the HT side, i.e. - no subs for audio, no extra wires, all direct XLR connections if possible with no switching except through necessary devices. Complicating the HT portion doesn't bother me because I am not listening critically to a system when watching a movie, while when listening to audio I listen critically. That is just me though. I am striving for as pure a sound as possible. I understand that audio reproduction is about sacrifices and I try to make as little sacrifices as possible so the sound is as close as possible to the original event. Unfortunately, sacrifices are a natural occurence as that is a part of the nature of music reproduction.

I don't understand what you mean when you say, "for music no processor is involved at all"? I don't use a processor for music. I am using the Burr-Brown 1792 DACs in the Denon DVD-5910 in dual differential mode. I bypass the Bryston SP1.7 completely for audio. So, I go from the source (Denon DVD-5910), bypass the preamp/processor (Bryston SP1.7), and interface with the amp (Bryston 9B SST).

I.E., Denon DVD-5910 --> Bryston SP1.7 (Bypass) --> Bryston 9B SST

That is as clean as I can get it with that Denon DVD-5910 since it doesn't have its own built in preamp functions with a volume control. The nice thing about the Ayre equipment I will fill my system out with in the next few months is that they all use balanced connections which should do wonders for the integrity of the sound between the different components.

[Karma]

HI Jeff,
It sounds like you have a good music setup. As I understand it you do not have subwoofers. Is that right? Well, I do and that changes things a bit. With my dual subs I have two situations to deal with. For music, I want to use the L and R stereo signals from the preamp to go to my L & R subs respectively so I can have stereo subs. For movies, I have only the single LFE output from the AV receiver/processor for the subs. This signal must be split to provide the inputs to the subs. The split is accomplished in the switchbox.

These two independent sources for the subs are switched in the subwoofer switch box. I know of no other way to accomplish this. I would prefer to not have the switchbox for the reasons you stated. But in the real world one must determine if the additional switching and cabling is only theoretically detrimental or if it is actually audible. Since the switching (remember, this is all passive switching and there is only one switch per channel) is my own design I can control the quality and physical layout of the parts I used. I have run careful listening tests and found no detectable degradation of the audio. So, I'm happy with the results.

By processor I mean that the Denon AV receiver/processor is not used at all for music. It does not need to be turned on. So for music the signal path is just like a normal stereo system except for the subwoofer switching which is necessary.

Sparky

[audioqueso]

By processor I mean that the Denon AV receiver/processor is not used at all for music. It does not need to be turned on. So for music the signal path is just like a normal stereo system except for the subwoofer switching which is necessary.

Sparky

Can you actually do that? You have the signal going THROUGH the Denon A/V receiver, right? But you don't need to turn it on??? Maybe I misread. I never actually heard doing that. Didn't know it worked that way.

[Karma]

Can you actually do that? You have the signal going THROUGH the Denon A/V receiver, right? But you don't need to turn it on??? Maybe I misread. I never actually heard doing that. Didn't know it worked that way.

HI audioqueso,
You are right. It will not work that way. Did you go back in the thread and read the full setup description? I probably did not do a good job of explaining.

In the post you quoted I was dealing with the connections for music only. In this case, I don't use the AV receiver/processor at all. Thus, it doesn't need to be turned on. It's not a matter of the signals passing through it. It's just not used. The path is the CD player digital out to the DAC which gives the analog audio to the Krell stereo preamp to the Krell power amp to the stereo speakers. The preamp also provides the L & R signals to the stereo subs through the subwoofer switchbox.

Movies are a different case and the processor is definitely involved.

I hope this helps.

Sparky

[audioqueso]

Ahhh... I had reread your post, but my understanding was that you still had it feeding the A/V receiver through that Denon link cable. Gotcha now.

[Karma]

Karma,

How come I can't find Cal Audio's website? Are they out of business? =(
Was trying to look up some info about the DAC you were talking about.

Tks!

HI Jim,
Yep, California Audio Labs is out of business. Or more acurately, they were bought out, in 2003 I think, by a company whose name I can't remember. The stereo component line was scrapped. It's a loss for us because Cal Audio made some very fine CD players and DAC's all with tube output stages. When they first came on the market CD's mixed with tubes was very radical idea. Now, others have picked up the torch and tubes in CD equipment is an accepted technique. I really like the sound of tube DAC's in general and Cal Audio specifically. I think Cal Audio kept the good parts of CD sound while improving the nasty parts.

If you want to learn more about the Sigma II DAC, Stereophile magazine did several reviews. They can be found in the magazines review archives. The latest one concerns the upgraded 24/96 varient which is the one I have. I suspect the Sigma II DAC is a very attractive buy on the used market. It's one of those things where you can't loose.

So, I bid a sad farewell to a brave company which I admire.

Sparky

[RebelMan]

Yep, California Audio Labs is out of business. Or more acurately, they were bought out, in 2003 I think, by a company whose name I can't remember.

Very true. It was Go-Video circa 1998.