Question for those of you who went through the 804 vs 805 debate

[JimTW]

Sure, the 805S are smaller and cheaper than the 804S...
but 805S plus the B&W speaker stands is just $1000
US Dollars less than the 804S.. is that justification to
spring for the 804S?

[tboooe]

jimtw..i went through this debate and then some. I actually bought the 805S + stands. I had them a month then bought the 804S. You are right, the 805 + stands puts it pretty close to the 804S. I originally thought I could be happy with the 805 but I was constantly thinking about the increase in performance that I could get for only incrementally more. If the price difference was substantial, like going from 805 to 803 then I would have stayed with the 805. Now that I have the 804S I am pretty happy. But of course I keep thinking about the 802D...of course this is a big jump from the 804 so I wont be able to upgrade anytime soon...I say if the incremental increase is something you can handle, and your room can accomodate the look of the 804 then go for them!

[JimTW]

jimtw..i went through this debate and then some. I actually bought the 805S + stands. I had them a month then bought the 804S. You are right, the 805 + stands puts it pretty close to the 804S. I originally thought I could be happy with the 805 but I was constantly thinking about the increase in performance that I could get for only incrementally more. If the price difference was substantial, like going from 805 to 803 then I would have stayed with the 805. Now that I have the 804S I am pretty happy. But of course I keep thinking about the 802D...of course this is a big jump from the 804 so I wont be able to upgrade anytime soon...I say if the incremental increase is something you can handle, and your room can accomodate the look of the 804 then go for them!

tboooe,

Right? The jump isn't that big... this is after considering the price
of the expensive stands!!! I know sound anchor sells them stands
too, but they are as pricey as the B&W ones. How are the 804S
compared to the 805S? I know the 805S are going to have a little
less bass, but those little speakers IMAGE SOO WELL!!!!

[aphexist]

Sure, the 805S are smaller and cheaper than the 804S...
but 805S plus the B&W speaker stands is just $1000
US Dollars less than the 804S.. is that justification to
spring for the 804S?

I think the real question is: Are the B&W stands really worth $600?

[JimTW]

I think the real question is: Are the B&W stands really worth $600?

I don't have enough knowledge to answer that question.

But, that's the set price of those stands no?

[tboooe]

Those stands are not worth on it my opinion but I bought them more for their resale value. I knew that I was going to upgrade from the 805 (though I did not expect to do it in one month) and believed that the total resale value would be more if I had the official b&w stands. I bought the stands from ebay for $375.

Regarding the differences between the 804 and 805, that has been talked about alot on this site. In a nutshell, I would say that the 804 gives you more of everything that the 805 does. To me I heard a fuller sound from the 804 that was able to envelop my listening space. I felt that the 805 were struggling to overcome my room.

[JimTW]

Those stands are not worth on it my opinion but I bought them more for their resale value. I knew that I was going to upgrade from the 805 (though I did not expect to do it in one month) and believed that the total resale value would be more if I had the official b&w stands. I bought the stands from ebay for $375.

Regarding the differences between the 804 and 805, that has been talked about alot on this site. In a nutshell, I would say that the 804 gives you more of everything that the 805 does. To me I heard a fuller sound from the 804 that was able to envelop my listening space. I felt that the 805 were struggling to overcome my room.

$375? Hey, not bad!!!

Btw, what color did you get the 804S in???

[tboooe]

I got the rosenut. To me that looked the most elegant allowing me to treat the speakers more like furniture in my room.

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
Must disagree. The 805S's properly setup and with one or two good subs will give anything short of an 803 a run for their money. This is especially true in a small acoustic space. In a large space, the floorstanders will show their stuff and the 805S will be out of their element. My 805S Pocket Rocket system in my bedroom HT is nothing short of astounding.

I think that most folks don't take the 805S seriously enough to surround them with top end equipment and a competent room setup. They tend to be viewed as an intermediate step in the audio evolution process. I think this is too bad.

Believe me when I say that I do know what good sound is all about. My main system (not the bedroom) system is great and very expensive. Does the 805S based system stand up to it. Well, no, not quite. But if you put my main system in my bedroom, the 805S system will outperform the big system. The 805S (and the associated HTM4S and the SCMS) are designed for small spaces. In this this situation, they excell.

One should always have a reference acoustic space in mind when comparing speakers. If you don't you are not being fair to the speakers.

Sparky

[tboooe]

karma, perhaps I should have explained that I have a large listening space with vaulted ceilings. It was not my intent to infer the 805s are not good. They were not good in my situation which is a large space with one side being open to an even larger space. In a smaller, confined room I am sure the 805s are great. In fact, in my bedroom I have 601s3 and they sound fantastic (sometimes better than my 804) because they are in a more defined, controlled area. As you pointed out, in a large space the 805s are out of their element.

I am sure the 805+ subs are on par with 803 but the big issue there is proper sub integration. As you add the cost of subs with cables, not to mention the added complexity and time involved with sub integration, it may make more sense to just buy the 804 or 803. Integration is tricky not to mention rather technical when it comes to getting the right cross over and having the optimal sub placement. For many people this is probably beyond the effort they want to take.

[turbokuo]

Pop in a Norah Jones track and you'll see that the 804S with the FST mids make a big difference. Furthermore the distortion stats in the 804S is much lower and the benefits are obvious. IMO, the $1,000 is worth it.

[sikoniko]

I began with N805's. I like them better than the 603's I had upgraded from, but they just weren't full enough for me and I quickly upgraded to the N804. The floor standing speaker has more depth than the 805 can have. I can always tell the difference from a monitor and a floor stander, even with a sub.

[Karma]

I began with N805's. I like them better than the 603's I had upgraded from, but they just weren't full enough for me and I quickly upgraded to the N804. The floor standing speaker has more depth than the 805 can have. I can always tell the difference from a monitor and a floor stander, even with a sub.

HI sikoniko
I'm not questioning your statement at all. I'm trying to understand why we are so out of line from one another.

Before we start, you should understand that saving money was not my motovation for choosing the 805S as the speaker around which to build my system. Rather, I was entirely interested in performance in my SMALL ACOUSTIC SPACE. "Small" is a very important caviat. I chose the 805S because I thought it offered me the best chance of obtaining high end performance given the constraints of the room. When you add up the costs, including the costly electronics, this is an expensive system. So, either I'm crazy for choosing the 805S or I have a valid point.

Now, let us start. Please define your terms so I (we) can understand your point. What EXACTLY do you mean by "depth"?. And what sub were you using if any at all? And, do you think you had your sub properly integrated with your N805's? And what size room were your N805's operating in compared to the 804's? Was the room properly (meaning seriously) treated? And finally, did you have electronics equal or better than those you are using to justify your statement about the N804's superioity?

The reason I'm asking these questions is simple. My 805S's, in my system, in my room, with Krell electronics and dual B&W ASW800 subs are outstanding. I would not trade for 804's of any generation when operating in my small acoustic space (my bedroom is 15 X 12 X 8 feet). Why are you and I coming to different conclusions? Anyone comtemplating a choice between these speakers should have good information to work with. Right now, I would just be confused if I were them.

BTW, the new 805S are significantly better speakers that the N805. But I don't think that is the entire issue here. Personally, I have always loved top end monitor speakers because they are typically imaging champs. Full size speakers struggle to equal them because of defraction problems with the larger cabinets. I'm aware of very few exceptions to this (Thiel comes to mind as well as various panel types). Thus we have the famous B&W bowling ball mid range enclosure to try to catch up with the 805S. I think the bowling ball as well as the highly rounded box shape has pretty much made up for the difference; it's a great design. But the 804's have no bowling balls, but, in general, they do have balls . Therefore, I think the 804 cannot image as tightly and precisly as the much smaller 805S because of defraction. I think careful listening confirms the theory.

But monitors lack bass. The 805S goes down to an honest 60HZ (minus 3dB) then falls off the map being 6dB down at 49Hz. I'm a bass lover and this not nearly enough. So, to make the scheme work, one needs GOOD subs (two in my case) that are capable of seamlessly integrating with the monitors. When done properly, these little speakers are capable of outstanding system performance. And the bass performance is better than the 804's without sub's. 804's with sub's? Now there's a question. Well, the debate would be on but the winner is not obvious. I have not personally tried this experiment.

I'm not going to rehash my feelings about mid range crossovers which most 3 way systems have including all B&W floorstanders. I hate them. Why? Because I can hear them. A monitor/sub system avoids crossover frequencies in the hearing sensitive mid range. The 2 1/2 way systems to some extent have overcome this problem but not entirely.

Thanks, Sparky

[sikoniko]

I'll address each point one by one. Keep in mind, this is my opinion. I fully respect your and am not being negative to yours.

Before we start, you should understand that saving money was not my motovation for choosing the 805S as the speaker around which to build my system. Rather, I was entirely interested in performance in my SMALL ACOUSTIC SPACE. "Small" is a very important caviat. I chose the 805S because I thought it offered me the best chance of obtaining high end performance given the constraints of the room. When you add up the costs, including the costly electronics, this is an expensive system. So, either I'm crazy for choosing the 805S or I have a valid point.

My opinion in building a sound room (theater or 2 ch.) begins with assessing ones needs. You defined your needs as being space conscious. For me, I had my N805's on stands, so they took up relatively the same amount of space as the N804's. This made space a non-issue for me. I never intended to put them in a built-in environment, therefor between the two, it was a toss-up.

Now, let us start. Please define your terms so I (we) can understand your point. What EXACTLY do you mean by "depth"?. And what sub were you using if any at all? And, do you think you had your sub properly integrated with your N805's? And what size room were your N805's operating in compared to the 804's? Was the room properly (meaning seriously) treated? And finally, did you have electronics equal or better than those you are using to justify your statement about the N804's superioity?

one topic at a time:

depth: for me, I found depth in fullness. I liked the 805's a great deal and found them to be very detailed and accurate, but having come from 603's, I lost the fullness of the sound. It just felt thin to me. This is my main issue with a monitor or bookshelf speaker. They sound great, but still are thin in comparison to a floor stander.

Sub:

At the time I believe the sub I had was an as-6, an older 600 series sub that went with my 600's. Was it properly integrated? it does no justice in comparison to the 850 I have now. It was very boomy. I will elaborate on this topic as I go. I did not notice a difference in music with the sub so much as smooth integration during movies from highs to lows. I was more into watching movies at the time than listening to audio. I did question whether I would have been just as well off with the asw800 because of the smaller woofer to better match my N804 drivers.

room size:

The room size was fairly small. I do not remember the exact dimensions, as I was renting an apartment. I upgraded to the N804's while in the same place. Here are 2 pics of the room to try and give you an idea, linked from the b&w pics:





Treatment:

no, there was not any treatment in particular as I was renting.

Equipment:

I was using a rotel 1055. I found this to be adequate for the N805's, but could not properly drive the N804's and added a cinnenova grande 5 shortly after. It opened the N804's up significantly.

Why are you and I coming to different conclusions? Anyone comtemplating a choice between these speakers should have good information to work with. Right now, I would just be confused if I were them.

thats simple, we both have our own personal preferences and possibly priorities in sound.

BTW, the new 805S are significantly better speakers that the N805. But I don't think that is the entire issue here. Personally, I have always loved top end monitor speakers because they are typically imaging champs. Full size speakers struggle to equal them because of defraction problems with the larger cabinets. I'm aware of very few exceptions to this (Thiel comes to mind as well as various panel types). Thus we have the famous B&W bowling ball mid range enclosure to try to catch up with the 805S. I think the bowling ball as well as the highly rounded box shape has pretty much made up for the difference; it's a great design. But the 804's have no bowling balls, but, in general, they do have balls . Therefore, I think the 804 cannot image as tightly and precisly as the much smaller 805S because of defraction. I think careful listening confirms the theory.

I do have N802's currently and think they are great sounding speakers. I am very happy with my "bowling balls" or as my wife calls them, our "5 year old children."

What I found with the N804's was 2 things. First, the FST did make a difference for me. I found that there was a slightly higher level of detail. second, I found the sound to get fuller. more depth. Now, when I compare them to my N802's, I find them very thin.

I do not agree with your assessment on the N804's imaging well. As for me, they were very dynamic and seemless. The soundstage, once broken in, became very alive and dynamic. To me, they did not work well with the htm2, and I was not fully satisfied until I upgraded the center to the HTM1. I will say though that having upgraded to the htm2 from the matrix center, there was a world of a difference. I heard things in dvd's that never existed before. That was a bigger upgrade difference than going from htm2 to htm1 where I again I just found fullness.

But monitors lack bass. The 805S goes down to an honest 60HZ (minus 3dB) then falls off the map being 6dB down at 49Hz. I'm a bass lover and this not nearly enough. So, to make the scheme work, one needs GOOD subs (two in my case) that are capable of seamlessly integrating with the monitors. When done properly, these little speakers are capable of outstanding system performance. And the bass performance is better than the 804's without sub's. 804's with sub's? Now there's a question. Well, the debate would be on but the winner is not obvious. I have not personally tried this experiment.

I am a musician first. When I think of bass I think of a kick drum, a sub note from a rap song, or a bass guitar. To me, the N805 did bass ok. bass was not my complaint and with a sub, it could fill in the spectrum for the lows of movies or heavy rap songs. My complaint was that I felt it was still thin sounding.

I'm not going to rehash my feelings about mid range crossovers which most 3 way systems have including all B&W floorstanders. I hate them. Why? Because I can hear them. A monitor/sub system avoids crossover frequencies in the hearing sensitive mid range. The 2 1/2 way systems to some extent have overcome this problem but not entirely.
Thanks, Sparky

Thats great. I wont dispute that you hear what you hear. Everyone's tastes are different. Now to the point on room treatment...

I walked into a shop last week. It had a fully and professionally treated theater room. It was powered by an arcam av-8, dv78 and whatever arcams 7 channel amp is.

They played the incredibles to demo the room for me. It sounded great. The acoustic treatments made a big difference in deadening the room. I am looking to build my own dedicated room right now and I researching treatments. The thing is, I could tell they were using monitors. The sound integrated fine, but to me it still sounded thin. I don't know the speakers they were using, sorry. They didn't sell b&w.

my point is, monitors will always sound thin. I can hear it. The system sounded fine. just thin.

I do have SCM1's for side and rears and think they are fantastic for that application. I used to be very big on having floor-standing speakers all they way around the system but they sound better than the 604's I was using for surround and are very space friendly.

Now I know we could get into technicalities of what if's, such as what if I had the same electronics or the room was treated when I had my 805's, but the fact is, when I replaced the 805's with the 804's, there was an immediate fulfillment of fullness in the 80hz and up range.

I will agree to your point that there is a big jump in fullness from the N804 and the N802, but that is to be expected. I found that for a marginal amount of money, I could upgrade to the N804 from the N805 and take the same amount of space. What I did not factor in was the slippery slope of needing a more power, and of wanting to upgrade the center.

[Karma]

HI sikoniko,
Thanks for your detailed reply. From your picture I think the space in your apartment is smaller than my bedroom. It took some optimism on your part to install a serious system. In truth neither your apartment nor my bedroom is big enough for first rate sound no matter how much treatment is installed. We just have to live with the compromise.

We should be careful when drawing conclusions when we are talking about different speakers. As I understand, you had the N805's and I have the 805S. These are significantly different. I would not have embarrked on this adventure if I had to settle for the N805's. I would have gone to another brand such as Proac which are also excellent.

My 805S's are mounted on B&W's excellent dedicated stands. From a foot print point of view, you are right. The 804's do take up about the same space. I chose the 805S's for other reasons.

Another way of looking at sonic descriptions is the 804's sound fat. Really, I'm kidding but sometimes it really does boil down to taste, doesn't it?

Oh, one more thing. My 805S system really has great and deep bass, considering the room, that the 804's or, for that matter, most of the other B&W floorstanders can't match. That's a big consideration for me.

Thanks Again, Sparky

[misterdoggy]

I had the 805S' and kept them for a couple of days before changing for 804S'.

I lived withthem until the 804S's came and the change was tremendous. No small difference, but lots more Bass.

[Karma]

HI doggy,
I kind of lost track of your thought in the last paragraph when you were speaking on bass. Which had more bass, the N804 or the 804S?

The large differences you heard between the N804 and the 804S are the differences I experience between the N805 and the 805S. The later generation speaker is not a simple upgrade. They only share the same model number.

805S bass is OK for a monitor but they will never be confused with a full range speaker with woofers. I went with the 805S with subs (two) fully in mind knowing the bass limitations of the monitor style speaker. In other words, the subs were not an add-on after I later realized the lack of bass. The subs were an integral part of my original conceptual system design.

I went with B&W because they are one of the few companies that make great speakers AND competent subwoofers. I thought this would give me the best chance for a seamless integration between the monitors and the subs. This has proven to be the case. The integration is excellent but it took a bit of tweeking to get it there.

I think one of the most common mistakes people make is not initially choosing a main speaker with subs in mind then later adding the sub. Often this approch results in a pairing that will never work right. Then begins the swapping of subs which is expensive and many times does not yield acceptable results. Many (maybe most) main speakers do not have a well behaved lower octave which is essential for a successful main/sub integration. This can make them unacceptable for use with subs. The 805S is unusually good in this area of performance.

I did not make that mistake this time. I have made it in the past so I understand the pain.

I have serious reservations about successfully adding subs to B&W floorstanders (which already have good bass response in the 8XX series) because it forces the subs crossover to a very low frequency where they never achieve linear response. Usually, the subs end up operating over a range of less than an octave which is still on the filter slope. The only reason folks put up with this situation is the lack of true musical material in this range. No normal instruments operate much below 30Hz except large drums, synthesizers, and, of course, gigantic pipe ogans which can go down to 16Hz.

For movies, bombs and earthquakes can certainly go into the lower octave of 16-32Hz. So, the sub can add to special effects but these sounds are pretty harmonically undemanding and musically unimportant. Integration is not really an issue in this case.

Sparky

Edited 2/6/06 to correct spelling

[misterdoggy]

Sparky,

My comparison was between the 805S and the 804S.

The 804S is a full range speaker. Even with sub's a full range speaker is IMHO better than an 805S and a sub. Subs are really for that low range you wouldn't have in an 805S but if the choice was between sub+805 OR 804S I would take an 804S as its a super speaker.

[Karma]

HI doggy,
I agree that the 804S is a super speaker. So is the 805S with much less bass.

Edited to Add: Doggy, I edited my above post while you were posting. I don't type fast enough. Please check it out.

I must ask why you limit a sub to only the super low frequencies? They certainly have upper limits where their performance falls off but I'm crossing mine over at 45Hz where they do just fine. I get the sense that you have not heard a really well setup and serious 805S/ASW800 combo. Please admit it if that is true. Most folks have not. But if you have, then I applogize beforehand.

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

Sparky,

I tried the 805S with a ASW 825, but only briefly. The main reason is that I have 802D's which are set to "full" so the only help needed in the bass arena is in the 20-32hz range. So my Sub is set to 40hz as the 802D's do the other work.

My Sub is really only for special affects in HT. I ONLY listen to CD's in Stereo using the 2 802D's.

If I had 805S's then I would profit by having a Sub for sure. If the original question which was: between an 805S and 804S for a few dollars more, then there is no choice.

[sikoniko]

hijak! that is interesting

I tried the 805S with a ASW 825, but only briefly. The main reason is that I have 802D's which are set to "full" so the only help needed in the bass arena is in the 20-32hz range. So my Sub is set to 40hz as the 802D's do the other work.

I set my crossover at 80hz for my N802's and asw850 since that is the thx spec. I find this quite satisfying. I used to crossover my N804's at 40hz until I read the thx thing. i havent tried it with the N802's just because that is how movies are mixed.

I will say Sparky that you and I share the same opinion about b&w subs! I feel that they integrate seemlessly together.

[misterdoggy]

hijak! that is interesting



I set my crossover at 80hz for my N802's and asw850 since that is the thx spec. I find this quite satisfying. I used to crossover my N804's at 40hz until I read the thx thing. i havent tried it with the N802's just because that is how movies are mixed.

I will say Sparky that you and I share the same opinion about b&w subs! I feel that they integrate seemlessly together.

I got the idea about 40hz from my friends at B&W who said the 802D's would be fine and the Sub would kick in for special effects.

[Karma]

HI All,
It's halftime. Game is somewhat tame to now. Hopefully, the second half will light it up. ABC's DD bass is great.

Doggy, that's the way I also would use the sub. Mostly for effects and not for music. The 802's just don't need the help for 99% of the recordings out there. Of course, the 805S need bass help all the time.

I really don't understand the large overlap you are using. To sound balanced the subs level would have to be reduced. You must really like an effects punch.

I don't use a high pass filter on my 805S. I just let them roll off naturally. I want to keep the signal path as pure as possible and high pass filters have nasty habits. I have never liked them. However, that may only be a valid approach for music. For movies, using a high pass of 80Hz may make some sense. It would keep much of the high energy bass out of the 805S which may be healthy for the life of the speakers.

The way my system is setup, I have separate control of the bass source for music and movies. So, I can use the high pass filter for movies only leaving the pure path intact for music. It's something I need to try. It would be very easy to do. But right now I'm working on my subwoofer remote volume control. Looks promising so far. Just what I need; another remote on my table :W !

Sparky

[texasbwfan]

Sparky,

Care to share any details concerning your subwoofer remote volume control? Thanks,

[Karma]

HI Tex,
I just finished assembling the circuit on Sat. It is a kit that is intended to be installed in a receiver or preamp that lacks remote volume capability. It uses a motorized stereo pot which is driven from a preprogrammed PIC micro controller. Power for the kit is supposed to be obtained from the internal receiver or preamp power supplies. The kit was $39.95 and I bought the recommended programmable remote for 29.95.

Right now I can say that it works. But at the moment it is uninstalled just sitting on my work bench. I am going to use it a bit differently than its intended use. It will be mounted in its own box with a small 12V power supply and, using RCA connectors, go in series with the subwoofers input signal.

I am planning to do a write up here after I determine if it works properly. I think it will work well and will offer a nice control function that is missing on most subwoofers. Stay tuned for my report which I hope will be ready in a couple of weeks.

In the meantime here is the link to the web page where I found the kit.

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/A_30559/cms/article.html

Sparky

[audioqueso]

It really depends on two things. One, do you actually WANT the B&W stands? If you do, it's pretty much the same price. The second thing is whether you're more light music listener (jazz, classical) or heavy music lister (rap, rock)? If you're a light music listener, you might prefer the 804 for it's smooth balance between the lows and highs. I think the 805 is better suited for heavy music since you'll most likely want a sub. And as we all know, the 804 is not going to play stronger bass than a sub for hip-hop or rock. Something to think about.

[texasbwfan]

Sparky,

That device appears to be fairly involved. While I do hope to have remote control functionality for my sub in the near future...I'm a realist and understand that the steps required to use the kit is a bit beyond my comfort zone. Please keep us in the loop, I'm anxious to hear how this kit works for your application.

[Karma]

HI Tex,
So far. I don't see much interest. I am wondering how you plan to get your sub remote volume control? I researched far and wide before finding this kit. If I could have found something simpler then that's the path I would have taken.

I think the lack of interest is due to the most folks are controlling their sub's volume from their processor so they don't have a need. That can certainly work fine but doesn't apply to my case very well.

Sparky

[JimTW]

It really depends on two things. One, do you actually WANT the B&W stands? If you do, it's pretty much the same price. The second thing is whether you're more light music listener (jazz, classical) or heavy music lister (rap, rock)? If you're a light music listener, you might prefer the 804 for it's smooth balance between the lows and highs. I think the 805 is better suited for heavy music since you'll most likely want a sub. And as we all know, the 804 is not going to play stronger bass than a sub for hip-hop or rock. Something to think about.

Audioqueso,

I don't WANT the B&W stands, but I NEED the stands to be there or else
there is no way for me to prop the speakers up at the height of the TV.
I don't have any matching furnitures that can go on the left and right side
of the TV for the 805S to sit on, so if I get the 805S, I must get a set of
certain stands minimum.

I listen to all kinds of music. Mainly classical (chamber as well as full
orchestra) to jazz (with wood instruments as well as brass) to modern
day slow jams and pop. With this wide range of music, I'm wondering
if you think this demands an 804S with sub setup? Which one can I
do away with a) just 804S or b) 805S with sub ?

Btw, what ya think about if we toss movie duties into the mix...
a) Just 804S
b) 805S with sub
c) 804S with sub

Tks!

[audioqueso]

I was referring to the B&W stands in particular. I mention that because you don't NEED to use their stands. There are various options. I opted to purchase a pair of VTC stands, had the top base replaced with another plate that was custom made to allow the anchor screws to be attached, filled up the base with packed sand, and now have a very secure stand. It all it cost me about $130, as oppose to $600 from B&W.

Now, I feel a 804 + sub combination will easily outperform the 805 + sub, but then we wouldn't be talking about even price range. For the music you listed, I think the 804s will suit you best. You don't need a dedicated sub for most music genres. I think only party type (rap, house, rock) music will benefit from a sub. The 804 is more than capable of playing most genres and handle the lower frequencies quite well.

And as far as movies, I've never watched a movie with the 804, just music. My 805 + sub combinations work great. I'm sure the 804 + sub would too. However, 804 vs 805 + sub for movies, the pair with the sub will definitely be more satisfying. But once again, we wouldn't be talking about the same price range anymore. I think for your music needs, you might be happier with the 804. But if you're about 50/50 movie/music, I'd recommend the 805+stands+sub combo instead.

[audioqueso]

FYI, would I sell my 805s and replace them with 804s now? No. The 804s balance is nice, but I'm very satisfied with my current setup and don't find it worth while. I rather wait until I can jump to the 802+. And at that time, I'd probably just throw the 805s in the rear as surrounds.

So whether you pick 804 or 805, I don't think you're going to have any regrets. Good luck.

[JKalman]

jimtw..i went through this debate and then some. I actually bought the 805S + stands. I had them a month then bought the 804S. You are right, the 805 + stands puts it pretty close to the 804S. I originally thought I could be happy with the 805 but I was constantly thinking about the increase in performance that I could get for only incrementally more. If the price difference was substantial, like going from 805 to 803 then I would have stayed with the 805. Now that I have the 804S I am pretty happy. But of course I keep thinking about the 802D...of course this is a big jump from the 804 so I wont be able to upgrade anytime soon...I say if the incremental increase is something you can handle, and your room can accomodate the look of the 804 then go for them!

I can guarantee that you will be extremely happy with the 802Ds, just make sure you have enough space to let them breath, otherwise go with the 803Ds. I went from the 703s to the 802Ds. I also recently did a lot of comparison between the 802D and the 800D and for the price difference I don't think the 800Ds are worth the money in the least bit. If you were going to go from $12k to $20k in your spending I would recommend going with another speaker company because you don't get much for your $8k extra in spending. The only difference that I could find between the 802D and the 800D, per their web site, is the bass driver size. I would recommend you check out the Watt Puppy 7s, which are $22400, and then wait for the next update in the Watt Puppy line. That is my opinion at least.

If I upgrade from my 802Ds I'm going to be looking at a few different companies. I won't stay with B&W, but right now it looks like I'll be sticking with my 802Ds, they are excellent performers for awhile, at least until I receive my Ayre C-5xe, and save up for the Ayre V-1xe and Ayre K-1xe. If after treating my room acoustically and installing those components I can't get the sound I'm looking for, I'll be saving up to upgrade the speakers next, but will likely still keep the 802Ds as front left and right speakers in a HT system, since my Ayre system is going to be dedicated to stereo only. I know that with the Watt Puppy 7s speakers the Ayre components are incredibly dimensional, dynamic, vivid, lifelike, etc, etc...

I should mention though a lot of people say that the 802D is to the 800D as the Sophia is to the Watt Puppy 7. So perhaps I should go test the Sophia out before spending too much on the Watt Puppy if I am only getting the similar ratio of small change in sound quality for the large leap in the price tag.

[JKalman]

Those stands are not worth on it my opinion but I bought them more for their resale value. I knew that I was going to upgrade from the 805 (though I did not expect to do it in one month) and believed that the total resale value would be more if I had the official b&w stands. I bought the stands from ebay for $375.

Regarding the differences between the 804 and 805, that has been talked about alot on this site. In a nutshell, I would say that the 804 gives you more of everything that the 805 does. To me I heard a fuller sound from the 804 that was able to envelop my listening space. I felt that the 805 were struggling to overcome my room.

The larger cabinet will produce more bass than the 805 is capable of producing. It has two bass drivers. It is a lot more speaker, to me it makes the 805 silly to buy for front speakers unless you are literally placing the speakers on a bookshelf or mounting them because of space constraints. If you are going to use stands you might as well have the full bodied 804.

For surround speakers, however, they are fantastic since the bottom half of floorstanders would be obscured by your seating anyway.

[Karma]

HI Jeff,
I hesitate to comment since you are always so aggressive with your responses but I guess I'll take a chance. Peace bro .

There is no question that the 805S has the bass response typical of a good monitor speaker. No one should argue that point. Unassisted, they certainly don't do bass as well as a floorstander. Deep bass is not part of their design parameters.

But if you couple the 805S with any of the ASW8XX subs (two subs is better no matter which mains they are coupled with) you will have bass performance that NONE of the floorstanders can match, not even the 801. Food for thought.

Is this a reason to choose the 805S/ASW8XX over the floorstanders? No, I don't think so unless you are working with a small acoustic space. Then I would say that one should consider the 805S/ASW8XX combo. They are capable of terrific performance in the space for which they were designed.

I won't try to make the argument that they are better overall. I've posed this position before and got a lot grief. The 805S's don't get a lot of love around here. So, not better but definitely good in a small space and with great bass. It's a nice situation.

Sparky

[audioqueso]

JKalman, did you read the original question? He's looking at 805 vs 804. Why are you recommending a speaker that is 3x the price? lol

[JKalman]

HI Jeff,
I hesitate to comment since you are always so aggressive with your responses but I guess I'll take a chance. Peace bro .

There is no question that the 805S has the bass response typical of a good monitor speaker. No one should argue that point. Unassisted, they certainly don't do bass as well as a floorstander. Deep bass is not part of their design parameters.

But if you couple the 805S with any of the ASW8XX subs (two subs is better no matter which mains they are coupled with) you will have bass performance that NONE of the floorstanders can match, not even the 801. Food for thought.

Is this a reason to choose the 805S/ASW8XX over the floorstanders? No, I don't think so unless you are working with a small acoustic space. Then I would say that one should consider the 805S/ASW8XX combo. They are capable of terrific performance in the space for which they were designed.

I won't try to make the argument that they are better overall. I've posed this position before and got a lot grief. The 805S's don't get a lot of love around here. So, not better but definitely good in a small space and with great bass. It's a nice situation.

Sparky

I like the 805s a lot, they have won lots of awards as well. I would say that the 805S with an ASW8** sub and some kind of room conditioning equipment like that award winning TacT piece that Absolute Sound gave an award to (I think it was them) would definitely make a great setup. I wouldn't say better than the 801D (only because I'm a big fan of the diamond tweeter), unless they come out with an 805D soon, but definitely better than the 801s. As Absolute Sound says in the TacT room conditioner article, subs are meant to be placed in a certain place, not near the rest of the cabinet usually, and I believe they say near walls (I'm so tired and don't have the magazine around since I'm not at home currently - this is not a topic I know off the top of my head very well...), but then they need help to integrate with the rest of the drivers, which is where the room conditioner comes in (adding time delays, etc, to ensure the sound waves line up properly). I'm definitely not very experienced with placing subs on my own to build a speaker setup that relays on them that much, but I would be brave enough to do it if I owned the right equipment to help me. I generally prefer the all in one solutions.

[JKalman]

JKalman, did you read the original question? He's looking at 805 vs 804. Why are you recommending a speaker that is 3x the price? lol

I was responding to the second post, which I quoted in my post. He is considering switching to the 802D eventually... Not anytime soon, but some day. I was confirming that it is a worthwhile switch. Didn't you read the quote? :

I like to rave about audio components I love, especially when someone is doing what I did, moving up from lower end speakers to higher end speakers, even if they are still only considering the move and can't make it yet. :W

[JKalman]

To be clear though about my feelings, I do feel that the 801 with subs would be preferable to the 805 with subs, and that the 804 with subs would be preferable to the 805 with subs.

[JKalman]

I'm actually going to retract my earlier statement a little. I think I would actually prefer the 800, 801, and 802 to the 805 with subs. From testing all three I can say that I prefer the sound of the mids and highs on those three models much more than on the 805s. The large cabinet body definitely has an effect on the sound of the music played through it, adding depth, body, sturdiness (and authority), and openess among other things. I just haven't heard the 805 produce anywhere near those kinds of sounds, and I don't think just adding a sub can make up for them. Adding subs to my 703s certainly couldn't produce those kinds of changes or put it anywhere near the level of the 800-802 from what I could tell.

I think someone put it well when they summed up with the word "thin" in comparison. The 805 does have incredible detail, but I don't feel adding subs can substitute for the full body of those other speakers and all the benefits that body offers, even with the few negatives it offers as well. I agree though, in a small space they can be useful, but I still don't see the point if you are using stands and can thus use a floorstander instead, unless you are saving money I guess.

I shouldn't have answered so quickly after waking up from a short snooze... I went to lie down again and my mind started to wander on the subject.

[Karma]

HI Jeff,
I certainly agree. The 801 is one of my dream speakers with or without subs. They may be fat but they are audio athletes. I do think that subs would be very hard to integrate with the 801 because their bass reaches so low. A sub seems redundant. It's bass is so good that I'm not sure I would want to. But a sub would take the bass a bit deeper

Sparky

[Guy]

People have mentioned the thin sound of the 805s compared to the 800 series floorstanders. I listened to the 804 and 805 in the same size room and could not say that one sounded thinner than the other. If anything the 804 sounded a little brighter than the 805. Of course bass was fuller with the 804 but not as much difference as I expected.

Rock music and anything fast paced and bass heavy sounded average while classical and jazz sounded fabulous on both models.

I eventually bought the 805s and later added a velodyne spl-1000r sub and to me this combo sounds better than the 804s with no sub.

Yes it cost more to buy the 805 + sub but with this combo all music sounds great and I can achieve a realtively flat frequency response down to about 20hz.

[audiosu]

I think if money is concern then 804S is the best buy of new800 series

Sure, the 805S are smaller and cheaper than the 804S...
but 805S plus the B&W speaker stands is just $1000
US Dollars less than the 804S.. is that justification to
spring for the 804S?

Consider the price jump of other speakers, old N804 is $3500, new $804S is $4000, only $500 rise. Consider $805 + Stand is close to the price is of 804S you definitely want to get two 6.5 woofers.

[JKalman]

I prefer to play my music without subs. I use bypass mode exclusively since my sources are good and I don't want any processor to interfere with their output. This is why I bought an 802D, rather, this is why I traded in my 703s for 802Ds.

People have mentioned the thin sound of the 805s compared to the 800 series floorstanders. I listened to the 804 and 805 in the same size room and could not say that one sounded thinner than the other. If anything the 804 sounded a little brighter than the 805. Of course bass was fuller with the 804 but not as much difference as I expected.

Guy, you said the same thing we were saying in the last sentence of the above quote from your post, i.e. -- "thinner", as in less bass.

[EastCoaster]

I think the real question is: Are the B&W stands really worth $600?

I just bought four 805s, and if anyone at B&W is reading this ( :W ) I don't think the stands are worth the price! (and neither does my dealer, my audiophile friends, my priest, and my girlfriend...)

[turbokuo]

HI Jeff,
I hesitate to comment since you are always so aggressive with your responses but I guess I'll take a chance. Peace bro .
Sparky

You're kidding me. :E If anything you've been more agressive than Jeff.