Ridiculous Question?!?!?

[JKalman]

As some forum readers may be privy to, I am at the crossroads of a very important decision concerning my speakers. I have my 802Ds up on the classifieds at Audiogon, as well as mentioned in a thread in the Pawn shop here on thiese fora. My initial decision to sell them was fueled more by what I perceived as a lack of dimensionality from my system. Here is what I have discovered during the last 24 hours which is radically changing my view on my 802D speakers, and no, I am not planning on starting my own weekly TV drama starring Kiefer Sutherland. Though after reading this post you may feel you saw the first episode... :

To seek advice concerning this lack of dimensionality I noticed in my system I posted a thorough question on Audiogon, which as always proved to be the best thing I could done in (that site has the most well educated and helpful audiophiles in the world giving advise freely and cheerfully if you ask them nicely and coherently). Not only did I receieve help, but, interestingly enough, I was fortunate enough to receive a lot of advice from Kal (Kalman) Rubinson, who wrote Stereophile's stellar review of the 802Ds, as well. I saved his posts to a word file so I may explore programs he mentioned, which look like they will be great help in treating my room down the road once I iron out the initial kinks in my listening area, but this is beyond the scope of this post.

My room is completely devoid of any formal treatments and to make matters worse I have limited space to move my speakers out from the front and side walls. The furthest I had moved the speakers out from the front wall previously was 4 feet. I have a 36" Sony XBR tube TV between my 802Ds. I currently have my speakers 3 feet out from the side walls due to my need for adequate space between the two speakers while avoiding too much early sound reflection.

At the advice of many people on Audiogon I needed to either move the TV completely from between the speakers, or move the speakers 8 feet out from the front wall and 6 feet from the TV. I had nothing to lose so I did so. Right away my whole system's dimensionality was shifted into 3D. I can still hear the TV causing problems with the 3D soundstage image even though the speakers are now 8 feet from the front wall. This amazes me. I had no idea what a profound effect an object in the middle can have on the sound of a system, even when that object is visually very far away (I guess I will have to get a front projector to really solve this problem, or make it a dedicated audio system with no TV). My system went from flat and dimensionless to full of depth. This likewise gave instruments and musicians a place on the dimensional soundstage to occupy, they weren't simply pasted on a flat surface anymore. I thought 4 feet from the TV was enough, but I was so wrong it wasn't even funny, and like I said, even at 8 feet out from the front wall (6 feet from the TV), I can still hear the TV effecting the ability of the soundstage to blossonm into full 3D glory.

To make a longer story short, I recieved much advice concerning other ways in which I can treat my environment to make the 802Ds sound even more 3-Dimensional. This potentially saves me a ton of money considering I was about to purchase $22k USD speakers that I knew for certain could produce a 3-D soundstage, because now I know that the 802Ds are similarly capable. I have a large list of ways I can continue to improve my audio environment, which could potentially take months to fully implement, and are also beyond the scope of this post.

This leads towards my question, and the second installment of my own version of the series 24 Hours. I am still overwhelmingly impressed with the Ayre gear. I already purchased the C-5xe for universal stereo playback. I plan on purchasing a 3-channel V-6xe, two of their soon to be released 300 watt MX-R monoblocks, and possibly one of their preamps, either the K-1xe or the K-5xe if I can figure out why one is around 3 times more in price than the other. Though I may not get the preamp if I find it is not necessary with my Bryston SP1.7 upgraded to the SP2 (though it might be nice to have the cheap preamp for backup during future upgrade situations). I plan on selling my Bryston 9B SST as well since I wil be using the Ayre amplifiers instead.

The question is concerning the Wilson speakers I heard on the Ayre demo system. I still love how engaging and musical they sounded. They sounded different from my 802Ds in a good way. I want to imagine myself owning both and being able to switch back and forth depending on what kind of mood I am in on any given day. This is the dilemma. How can I pull this off using the same system? I am wondering if I can mix these two brands somehow between the front and surround channels if I only use surround for movie soundtracks and not for music? Perhaps there is a programable preamp I can purchase which will change the sound characteristics of the 802Ds or the Wilson Watt Puppy 7s when they are being run together during movie soundtracks? I hate to think I will have to choose between one brand or the other, when both have unique sounds which I find pleasurable in different ways. Perhaps the surround channels are discrete enough in movie soundtracks that it won't be an issue?

Well, there you have it. Two episodes later and 22 left in the season. I could certainly use any advice or help anyone can offer on how to commingle these two different speaker sounds into a unified home theatre system. How can I make the B&W 802Ds and the Wilson Watt Puppy 7s work together, or can they work together at all? If you think this is ridiculous, great, please let me know you feel that way and explain why. Any inspirations, insults or thoughts on this topic will be appreciated. :B

Thanks,

Jeff

[r100gs]

Simple, Puppies up front. ;x( B&W's to the rear. :M

[JKalman]

LOL, yeah, that was the plan. :T You think it will work ok though? 8)

[Joey_V]

I dont own BW nor do I own the Wilsons (I'm a planar guy). But... I admire your effort of putting 2 hi-end speakers together into 1 system. You either have a lot of moolah or are crazy (in a good way).

I'll follow your adventure with great interest.

Joey

[sikoniko]

have you heard the 802d's on the same ayre system you are building? I would start by waiting to see, or listen, to that outcome first. you might like it more than you realize.

i too had a similar experience. I purchased Cara to help design my theater room. the program recommended I pull my speakers out another foot and instantly they became more 3d.

I know they got bad press from people here, but have you purchased sound anchor stands yet? they truely add depth and dimension to the sound. a very worthy purchase if you have the patience for them to arrive.

[worldys]

i have a much better idea than the all in one room system, create a separate listening room for the 802s, my living room for instance, then whenever you are in the mood for the b&w sound, bring over your favorite cds and a 6 pack and i will be gracious enough to let you listen

wish i had such dilemmas as yours

cheers mate

s

[tboooe]

hi guys and gals..i dont want to high jack this threat but I wanted to explore the idea of having something in between the speakers a bit more. i too am unhappy with the 3d soundstaging of my 804S. right now i have an audio rack in between my speakers. the front of the both the rack and my speakers are about 3 ft from the back wall. should i consider moving my rack so there is nothing in between the speakers?

[GregLett]

Give it a try. That must be the secret, my speakers have nothing directly in line with the drivers.

[JKalman]

hi guys and gals..i dont want to high jack this threat but I wanted to explore the idea of having something in between the speakers a bit more. i too am unhappy with the 3d soundstaging of my 804S. right now i have an audio rack in between my speakers. the front of the both the rack and my speakers are about 3 ft from the back wall. should i consider moving my rack so there is nothing in between the speakers?

Like I said in the first post of the thread. Even with my speakers 8 feet out from the front wall and about 6 feet out from the TV I still can notice the TV interfering with the 3-Dimensionality of the sound. My TV is right against the wall in-between the two speakers, but the edge of the TV is 6 feet from the speakers. That is quite some distance, but still it is messing with the sound field. I am going to have to get rid of everything between the speakers completely and buy a front projector if I want this system to be both audio and Home Theatre. Putting any objects between the speakers at all is, as I have found out through this experiment, very destructive to the quality of the sound.

I'll post a pic soon of how my system is currently set up because it will show it better than I can state it.

I would definitely move the rack, and anything else between the speakers. You should hear a big difference right off the bat. Also, make sure your speakers are out farther from the wall if possible. Three feet is not enough distance from the wall. I believe sound engineers say around 4 feet minimum, with more depth possible as you bring the speakers out even further.

[GregLett]

How about a Plasma TV, or LCD??

[JKalman]

i have a much better idea than the all in one room system, create a separate listening room for the 802s, my living room for instance, then whenever you are in the mood for the b&w sound, bring over your favorite cds and a 6 pack and i will be gracious enough to let you listen

wish i had such dilemmas as yours

cheers mate

s

I want to put them in the master bedroom, but my wife won't let me put them anywhere else in the house but in my designated office space... Oh well, the master bedroom has the best acoustic space in the house as well. It has huge vaulted ceilings, about 20 feet high, and the space itself is around 25 x 34!

[JKalman]

have you heard the 802d's on the same ayre system you are building? I would start by waiting to see, or listen, to that outcome first. you might like it more than you realize.

No, I havn't but that is a great idea. The only problem is that those monoblocks I listed aren't coming out until the spring, so I won't be able to test the 802Ds out on the reference quality amps unless I take more of a hit on the resale value. I am considering buying a 3 channel V-6xe now, since you can custom order the number of channels, and trying the 802D out on that temporarily. The other option is to take the V-1xe home as a demo and see how it sounds with the 802D. I will probably do the latter, but I am waiting for my Ayre C-5xe to arrive first, which should be some time in the next two weeks. I can't convey how excited I am about this without sputtering and farting like a profoundly insane person.

[JKalman]

How about a Plasma TV, or LCD??

Those would still change the reflective quality of the space a bit. A projection screen which can be pulled down from the ceiling seems like the best option, and this would also mean I can make a 100+ inch screen size as well. I am probably going to buy the Sony Ruby VPL-VW100 when it comes down in price. Though even if it stays at the same price, it is a bargain compared to other front projectors on the market.

[GregLett]

Those would still change the reflective quality of the space a bit. A projection screen which can be pulled down from the ceiling seems like the best option, and this would also mean I can make a 100+ inch screen size as well. I am probably going to buy the Sony Ruby VPL-VW100 when it comes down in price. Though even if it stays at the same price, it is a bargain compared to other front projectors on the market.

I get very good imaging now, but now you make me want to try moving my TV

I'll wait until the wife isn't home and pull the speakers out more :B

[JKalman]

I get very good imaging now, but now you make me want to try moving my TV

I'll wait until the wife isn't home and pull the speakers out more :B

Yeah, now I understand why audiophiles like to have separate HT and audio rooms. If I could acquisition more space in the house from wifey, I would make a dedicated audio room in a second. I still don't understand why she is ragefully angry anytime I even bring up the idea of putting speakers in the master bedroom. It wouldn't hurt her at all...

[tboooe]

jkalman:
have you listened to the ayre k-5xe preamp? what are your thoughts? I am thinking about upgrading my preamp with something that has better soundstaging and depth. I heard good things about the ayre.

[JKalman]

jkalman:
have you listened to the ayre k-5xe preamp? what are your thoughts? I am thinking about upgrading my preamp with something that has better soundstaging and depth. I heard good things about the ayre.

I loved it. I heard the Ayre C-5xe played through the Ayre K-5xe amplified by the Ayre V-5xe into the Wilson Watt Puppy 7 speakers. The mixture of depth, realism and musicality was astounding and has inspired me to put together that exact system for myself, starting with the C-5xe which I already ordered a few weeks ago and which should arrive any day now.

I'm buying the V-6xe next customized with 3 channels (I plan on buying the monoblocks for my 802Ds or Wilsons when they come out this spring) which will give me a 5.1 system by next year and will allow me to sell my Bryston SP1.7. Then I was thinking of buying the K-5xe next. First I wanted to figure out what is better about the K-1xe that it costs so much more than the K-5xe. I might see if I can just use the Bryston SP1.7 (upgraded to the SP2 soon) in bypass mode and get the same dimensionality out of the amp and universal player, because I would like to save money for other things on my list, like the Watt Puppy speakers or a front projector TV like the Sony VPL-VW100.

What makes a preamp worth having in the case of the K-1xe or K-5xe? I'm still not certain exactly what it does? I'm used to using bypass mode on my Bryston SP1.7 preamp/processor. What does the preamp do that is different from and the same as what my Bryston? I know for certain that the synergy between all the Ayre components in that Ayre demo system was staggering. In what ways does it influence the signal that I am not used to from using bypass modes? Is there more of an advantage in using bypass mode over buying a preamp besides saving money? I was hoping it would be better to use the C-5xe in bypass mode with an Ayre amp and get the full advantages of depth, airiness between instruments and musicality.

I used to think the only advantages of using the preamp was to add a sub, which I wouldn't be doing anyway, or which my SP1.7 can handle anyway, and having the ability to switch between multiple source components connected to the preamp.

I would think you should go with an Ayre amp as well as a preamp if you want to get the full advantage of their gear, but that is because I've never demoed any of their equipment with any gear but their own. Which is why I would recommend you stay with them on your source player also, i.e. buy the C-5xe also. I know for myself, I can't be happy unless I get the sound I heard from that demo system, so, whether it takes a year or more, I'm slowly putting all that gear in my system.

Oh, one thing I should mention which is important, and another reason to buy all Ayre components. They all use balanced as well as unbalanced circuitry. You switch it to the mode you want to use, and when you switch one mode on, the other mode's circuitry is disconnected and turned off completely (this is the kind of intelligent design they put into all their gear), so no EMI, crosstalk, etc. So my system when complete will use all balanced interconnects.

I guess that settles it, I have to buy at the least the K-5xe so my preamp has both balanced inputs and outputs. My Bryston SP1.7 does not have balanced inputs, only balanced outputs.

[JKalman]

I can't say enough good things about the Ayre equipment, you really must go demo their equipment. What it does to audio is beyond my capability with words.

[JKalman]

Here are pictures of the speakers 8 feet from the front wall and 6 feet, give or take, from the TV.

[tboooe]

Jeff, thanks for the input on ayre. I am definitely going to give it a listen. they are on my short list of preamps to try.

one question about the balanced and unbalanced connections. I have some components that only have rca outputs. can the ayre handle having both xlr and rca inputs at the same time (for different components)? i assume it can but how would the mode switching be accomplished in this case? is there a mode switch for each input and output? or do you have to use all balanced or all un balanced?

[JKalman]

I'm not sure if it can use both at the same time or not. I would go to the Ayre website and download or browse the manual. I've read through the some of the manuals but I don't think I read any of the preamp manuals. I know that with their amplifiers you have to choose one or the other and throw a switch or some kind of toggle button in the back (like with my Bryston 9B SST as well), they recommend that you don't have anything plugged into the unused inputs but I don't remember why offhand.

I would assume you get a limited number of xlr and rca jacks and can assign each of those to whichever source label you like, but it could easily be the opposite where each source has one of each, or a few sources have both and some only have one. Best thing to do is check out their manuals to find out for certain. I'll be reading it also: K-5xe manual.

[sikoniko]

having the speakers that far up seems like a lot of waisted space behind them... is that close to what is considered 'nearfield?' why not put some acoustic panels up and do some treatments to the room? id also move those book cases elsewhere...

[GregLett]

Jeff,

The book shelves might be causing you some imaging problems. I have
issues with my left wall being so close, I had to toe in my left speaker more than
my right. Where they are now is clear of the book cases, so that might be
something to experiment with.

[sikoniko]

I am very confident that a large part of your problem is room acoustics. You can buy all the electronics you want, but until you address it, you won't maximize your audio delight.

[RebelMan]

one question about the balanced and unbalanced connections. I have some components that only have rca outputs. can the ayre handle having both xlr and rca inputs at the same time (for different components)?

FYI: Classe' can handle both types of connections simultaneously.

[tboooe]

rebelman...to my rescue again! Classe! I love it! I will be auditoining it soon.

[JKalman]

having the speakers that far up seems like a lot of waisted space behind them... is that close to what is considered 'nearfield?' why not put some acoustic panels up and do some treatments to the room? id also move those book cases elsewhere...

Putting up treatments behind them won't increase the depth. Moving the speakers that far from the wall does. This is exactly why people dedicate whole rooms to just audio, instead of squeezing speakers into a small room with a TV between them. It is a completely different sound, like actually being in a room with the musicians. It has turned my stereo soundstage from one dimensional to 3-Dimensional.

[JKalman]

having the speakers that far up seems like a lot of waisted space behind them... is that close to what is considered 'nearfield?' why not put some acoustic panels up and do some treatments to the room? id also move those book cases elsewhere...

Nope, I am 9 feet from my speakers and they are 6.3 feet apart. That isn't nearfield.

[JKalman]

Jeff,

The book shelves might be causing you some imaging problems. I have
issues with my left wall being so close, I had to toe in my left speaker more than
my right. Where they are now is clear of the book cases, so that might be
something to experiment with.

The bookshelves do effect the extension of the sound off that wall, causing the sound to seem less expansive on that side of the room. I'm actually moving my whole setup to the other side of the room where I have 4-5 more feet to work with, and I'm ditching the TV for a front projector to permanently eliminate the hole in the middle it is causing.

[JKalman]

I am very confident that a large part of your problem is room acoustics. You can buy all the electronics you want, but until you address it, you won't maximize your audio delight.

Did you even read my initial post? I'm guessing not, since that is what I said.

[JKalman]

rebelman...to my rescue again! Classe! I love it! I will be auditoining it soon.

I didn't like the Classe gear I auditioned, but it could have been the dealer's setup. The dealer had it set up in a bad room, worse than mine when my speakers were closer to the wall.

[Glen B]

FYI: Classe' can handle both types of connections simultaneously.

Not both simultaneously. Its XLR and RCA outputs simultaneously and either XLR or RCA input at a time.

[JKalman]

I'm well aware of what I need to do to improve the sound in my room. In the beginning of the post I was sharing how moving my speakers far away from walls and away from objects between them increased the depth of the soundstage in very large ways. I thought perhaps some people here could benefit from that info considering how many people seem to jam their speakers into small spaces in the photos I've seen.

I'm in the process of changing my whole room around, which I won't have time to finish till the end of the month since I am going to be gone this next week, starting tomorrow morning, and then for another week later in the month visiting family in Florida. I get the feeling people didn't read my post since I stated that I have an extensive list of improvements to make from people on the Audigon fora. I only posted the pics to show how far out I moved the speakers while still having soundstage problems because of the TV in the middle. I don't need advice on what to change in the room or I would have asked that question to begin with. Moving the bookshelves would be worthless at this point because they will have to be moved back again when I move my speakers to the other side of my office.

To answer the question about wasted space. No, it isn't wasted space at all if it increases the sound quality of my speakers and audio system. I don't care if I have to build a separate house for my equipment. If it improves the sound as much as this experiment has, it is worth every penny IMO. Unfortunately, I can't afford to do this, so I have to live within my limitations, but I can afford to waste space in my listening room in order to increase the quality of the sound.

I'm more interested in whether the Wilsons and the 802Ds will match well for movie soundtracks. That is the question I was asking in the initial post.

Thanks...

[JKalman]

Not both simultaneously. Its XLR and RCA outputs simultaneously and either XLR or RCA input at a time.

Ah, Glen, I was wondering what he said. I have him on ignore. :

[RebelMan]

Not both simultaneously. Its XLR and RCA outputs simultaneously and either XLR or RCA input at a time.

It stands to reason that one would select only one input at any given time, unless of course we are talking about multiple zones for audio distribution. However, multiple simultaneous input connections are allowed and supported. Input to output mapping is available through the menu system on both the CP-500 and CP-700 pre-amplifiers and the SSP-600 surround sound processor.

In addition, Classe's Delta series power amplifiers also support both types of inputs simultaneously and happens to be another one of the series distinguishing features.

[Glen B]

It stands to reason that one would select only one input at any given time, unless of course we are talking about multiple zones for audio distribution. However, multiple simultaneous input connections are allowed and supported. Input to output mapping is available through the menu system on both the CP-500 and CP-700 pre-amplifiers and the SSP-600 surround sound processor.

In addition, Classe's Delta series power amplifiers also support both types of inputs simultaneously and happens to be another one of the series distinguishing features.

According to the owner's manuals for the Delta series power amps, the user can toggle between either XLR or RCA input but not have both "live" at the same time. Ditto with the Classe legacy amps, so there is nothing distinguising about the feature.

[JKalman]

According to the owner's manuals for the Delta series power amps, the user can toggle between either XLR or RCA input but not have both "live" at the same time. Ditto with the Classe legacy amps, so there is nothing distinguising about the feature.

Nothing personal, and I guess it doesn't matter because I will be gone till Saturday evening anyway, but can't you two start your own thread?

[RebelMan]

According to the owner's manuals for the Delta series power amps, the user can toggle between either XLR or RCA input but not have both "live" at the same time. Ditto with the Classe legacy amps, so there is nothing distinguising about the feature.

According to Classe'...

Balanced and Single-Ended
All Classé amplifiers provide for both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs. The LEDs on the front panel tell not only the number of channels, but also their mode of operation. Unlike other designs, Classé amplifiers allow both single-ended and balanced connections to be made simultaneously. For example, the user may choose to connect balanced inputs for the left and right channels of a high-end preamp, while the single-ended connections for these channels are connected to a surround processor. The different inputs can then be selected from the front panel, or by RS-232 via PC or an external control system.

Both connections are "live" but you can only "enable" (toggle) one at any given time and it is a unique feature of Classe' amplifiers. Let's not quibble over semantics.

[Kobus]

That is a nice future. Is it unique to classe?

[Eliav]

According to Classe'... Both connections are "live" but you can only "enable" (toggle) one at any given time and it is a unique feature of Classe' amplifiers. Let's not quibble over semantics.

True. It is the case indeed, at least with the CA-M400.
Eliav

[grit]

I'm more interested in whether the Wilsons and the 802Ds will match well for movie soundtracks. That is the question I was asking in the initial post.

Thanks...

I think you're nuts. Seriously though, I've heard the WATT/Puppy 7's, again just a few days ago. Very neutral and natural. B&W is a more vivid speaker, even the 800 series. I think you'll hear a distracting difference by trying to match those speakers. I'm not familiar enough with Wilson to know if they carry a surround speaker. If not, I'd consider a different brand to match (Thiel, Aerial, etc).

Also, I missed what you were doing for a center channel? I don't see one at all in the photograph there. My guess is you're not using one? Given the recent development with repositioning your speakers and the expanded 3-d sound stage, I think you should try movies in just 2-channel and see what happens. Your best solution at this point may be to eliminate the surround channels. If ya don't mind, please give it a try an let us know what you find.

[GregLett]

Wilson does make a center and surrounds.

[Phil Rose]

Jeff:

Personally, I wouldn't invest a huge bundle into your surrounds if you’re only going to be doing movies with them but, they should be voice matched to your mains. For MC music it's recommended that you have identical speakers in all 5 locations. You should go with B&W or Wilson but, not both. Not being flush with cash, I compromised and got N804’s and an HTM1 to go with my N802’s. This combo does very nicely for MC music and is great for movies with a big sub.

One other thing that I noticed from your pictures, if you don’t you should, try removing the woofer and mid-range grills from the speakers when you listen. Your 802D’s will sound a lot better.

[Fraise]

my opinion is that if you're looking at watt puppy's and do decide to get them, the 802'd should go back to the dealer and be replaced by a pair of sophia's. (although i'm slightly biased towards wilsion over B&W)

[sikoniko]

I heard an ayre setup today on some magnepans. I was very impressed with the setup. I can see why you like it. this dealer did not carry b&w so I have no idea what it would sound like on a different speaker, but I imagine it would be good.