Front Projector Decision, Help Please!

[JKalman]

I am wondering if getting a front projector for my HT space is worth it or if I would benefit more from one of the new 3 chip DLP television set. The front projector I am considering is the Sony Ruby. I only have 65-75 inches for the screen on my wall because I need to keep the speakers at least 3 feet out from the side walls.

Assuming the worst case scenerio is it worth it? My other option is buying a 60 or 65 inch 3 chip DLP so I still can get 1080p at full HD resolution, the highest resolution is a necessity.

Is it a waste of money for me to buy the Ruby and only use it for 65-75 inches of wall space since the big advantage of the front projector is a much larger screen? Is the worst case scenerio of 65 inches too small for the Ruby anyway?

I would really appreciate any input into my situation. My only considerations are my need for full HD resolution (1920x1080) and prevention of screen burn in since I will be playing the Xbox360 and using the computer on it as well sometimes.

Here are my HT components to date:

Bryston SP1.7 Preamp-Processor
Bryston 9B SST
Denon DVD-5910
HDTV Satellite and Tivo Receiver
Xbox360
High-end Game PC (Self-Built)
B&W 802Ds (pair)

I will have the speakers a foot or so closer to the side wall when I upgrade my TV.

[Azeke]

Jeff,

IMHO, I would not consider it due to your limited spacing, however I just a novice in this endeavor the experts will chime in here soon.

Have you contemplated the new Sony SXRD?

Good luck,

Azeke

[JKalman]

Yeah the 60 inch SXRD was one of my considerations, but the one thing that bothers me about that TV is that it does not accept 1080p signals, which means if I get my Denon DVD-5910 upgraded for 1080p output I won't be able to send the 1080p signal to the TV. The Ruby does however come with two HDMIs which together take a 1080p signal, this is also something I will need for the PS3 when it releases.

The DLP TV I am considering which does take two HDMI cables sending 1080p is the HP Pavillion MD6580n. The thing that I like about the projector is I can play around with it and possibly make the screen really large if I choose to move my couch back I can probably make the screen upwards of 100 inches, but the thing I don't like is that for half the price I can buy that 65 inch HP. Perhaps I need to wait awhile for the Ruby to drop in price.

[George Bellefontaine]

Well I am just a front projection nut so I would say go that way. But a 72" 16:9 screen is about as small as I would go for front projection and if space is a problem then perhaps the dlp RPTV is best.

[wildfire99]

Be careful with the HP display... some people have reported weirdness with motion and wobulated displays. See one first if you can.

If you are sure you're going to stick with that (small) size for a while, I would tend towards the RPTV. It will have better black levels, similar contrast, and be watchable with the lights on (plus the bulbs are cheaper). Unless you're going CRT or plasma I can't see a burn-in problem (at least not a permanent one).

The front projector will have the benefit of being able to shoot a larger picture in the future, with the requirement of having a screen. Of course, that's another option: an acoustically-transparent screen. Those are mega $$$, but if you can afford a Ruby then you can probably afford a good one plus a 1080p DLP or a slightly discounted Ruby in a few months.

[JKalman]

Thanks so far for the replies.

Wildfire, thanks for the warning. I have to admit, the idea of an HP TV didn't sound very enticing to me. I know people who have had experience with their computer tech support department as well... Enough said.

I wish Sony would release one of those SXRDs with 1080p inputs. That would seal the deal for me. I would go out and buy the 60 inch SXRD tomorrow if it had 1080p capable inputs. As much as I want the Ruby, I have to admit it is a little beyond my price point, though I could save up for it, it seems like a waste of a projector for my space. The Ruby or its future equivalent will be a great purchase down the road when my kids don't need a play room anymore and I can make a 12-16 foot screen space in a dedicated HT.

[wildfire99]

My main work monitor is an HP. It does alright. Their computer systems are garbage, but pretty and inexpensive garbage.

An acoustically transparent screen is probably around the $2k ballpark for something nice, and with AT, you want nice. It allows you to use all of your space, at the expense of less light reflection and higher cost.

It's no sin to step down to 720P for now, although like you I wouldn't want to do it myself. Cheaper 1080P DLP projectors are supposedly around the corner.

Do you really need 1080P though? I really have my doubts that anything will be 1080p, XBox360 isn't... broadcast HD isn't... PS3 might with trickery, but Sony's own displays won't do it. Think about getting a cheaper 720p DLP unit today, with screen, then selling it off a year from now. At least, that's what I would do, if I wasn't waiting for the Rubys to finally ship to dealers. If the Ruby never shipped, I would get a 1080P projector (hopefully) come Jan or Feb. If I wouldn't wait that long, I would get a nice 720P unit and upgrade later. PJ's are easy to sell online. RPTVs aren't, but I wouldn't feel bad with a 1080i capable display. There's nothing against sending 1080p over a 1080i connection if you send it segmented (e.g. both fields are representing the same point in time, instead of different points as usual). The TV doesn't need to know, assuming it doesn't have a totally botched deinterlacer.

All the worries fade away fast once you get that sweet sweet HD picture going, regardless of resolution.

[JKalman]

My main work monitor is an HP. It does alright. Their computer systems are garbage, but pretty and inexpensive garbage.

An acoustically transparent screen is probably around the $2k ballpark for something nice, and with AT, you want nice. It allows you to use all of your space, at the expense of less light reflection and higher cost.

It's no sin to step down to 720P for now, although like you I wouldn't want to do it myself. Cheaper 1080P DLP projectors are supposedly around the corner.

Do you really need 1080P though? I really have my doubts that anything will be 1080p, XBox360 isn't... broadcast HD isn't... PS3 might with trickery, but Sony's own displays won't do it. Think about getting a cheaper 720p DLP unit today, with screen, then selling it off a year from now. At least, that's what I would do, if I wasn't waiting for the Rubys to finally ship to dealers. If the Ruby never shipped, I would get a 1080P projector (hopefully) come Jan or Feb. If I wouldn't wait that long, I would get a nice 720P unit and upgrade later. PJ's are easy to sell online. RPTVs aren't, but I wouldn't feel bad with a 1080i capable display. There's nothing against sending 1080p over a 1080i connection if you send it segmented (e.g. both fields are representing the same point in time, instead of different points as usual). The TV doesn't need to know, assuming it doesn't have a totally botched deinterlacer.

All the worries fade away fast once you get that sweet sweet HD picture going, regardless of resolution.

My Denon DVD-5910 is currently 1080i output through HDMI, but for 300 dollars I can get the Denon factory upgrade that turns it into 1080p output (it uses two HDMI outputs). All the new Denon DVD-5910s are 1080p capable with just a firmware upgrade. Too bad I didn't wait a little longer before making my purchase. I'll have to pay 300 extra for the upgrade and lose the use of the unit while it is modified. The PS3 will be 1080p output using two HDMI outputs as well.

I'm guessing that the SXRDs must have the capability of a firmware upgrade to take 1080p input, it would be completely stupid of Sony not to have thought ahead especially since a branch of Sony designed the PS3. I bet they will have an upgrade for a fee... but I'm not willing to take the risk of being wrong. Sony is such a big company, it is possible that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I'm honestly not too concerned about watching DVDs upconverted to 1080p since I already have it in 1080i, but I do want 1080p for the PS3, and possibly for HD-DVD and BluRay (the BluRay is obviously a definite since the PS3 will play BluRay discs).

I already have a 720p EDTV, actually a few of them throughout the house. None have HDMI so I need a TV that accepts HDMI for the DVD-5910 to upconvert. Buying a TV that is capable of taking a 1080p signal through its inputs is just my guarantee that it is future safe for the next few years.

Of course the other issue is that unless I buy a TV capable of 1080p, I'm not going to be able to display HDTV at its true resolution of 1920 x 1080 interlaced. That is ultimately a bigger issue for me, since this TV is not for casual viewing, but is going to be dedicated to displaying higher resolution signals. We have a 56" plasma in the bedroom, a 55" rear projection CRT in the kids' playroom, two Sony Wega 36" XBRs which take 1080i signals as well (one currently in my office which I will need to find a new home for, and the other in the den - I'm not sure if these display 1080i signals at full 1080i resolution) and a Sony Wega 23 inch EDTV LCD at my desk for close viewing in my office as well as the Apple 30 inch LCD. I definitely don't want to buy another 720p and then a 1080p later on because I have so many TVs already.

[Lex]

Jeff, you may need to do what I did one day, and can some sets, and just accept technology changes got you. I loaded up a 60" analog RPTV that needed repair, a 35" Mitsu tube style console, and a 26" Sony Console on a trailer and sent them all down the road. I paid a whopping 8 grand total for all those sets, and I literally gave them away. That's right, I got rid of every TV in my home that weighed over 60-70 pounds. I did keep a 20" set in my test system that does have component video inputs I keep for cable testing only. (this is a receiver, dvd, tv, 3 speaker setup for quick cable tests only) IE test system. The only thing I transmit is quick DVD blips.

Anyway, I've done basically the same thing with computer monitors, now I have a 17 and 19" tube style sitting on my work bench to ditch. I've went all LCD/Plasma or front projection. Granted, they are all 1080i at this point. Oh well? It seems we are always behind some technology barrier. I think the only issue will be, I could have to use digital inputs, and use the DVI. But I don't think using the 1080i or 720p will be an issue. That is, I don't think we will have to use 1080p, though of course it will be a nice to have.

They did say by 2009, all tv will be digitally transmitted. I don't think that means has to be 1080p though.

Actually, if Jeff can afford a Lotus and a Mercedes, suffice it to say, he could probably add a new room on for the PJ if he wanted to, lol. Jeff, I'm beginning to hate you. :P

[Nick M]

I would wait a bit.
-----
Having said that, I debated countless hours while doing boring lab tests at work whether to get a 42" 720p Plasma or 720p PJ with an 84" screen. Now that I've had the PJ for awhile, there is just something about an 80-120" screen and reference level bass (that digs deep into the teens) that takes Home Theater to a whole 'nother level for me. I say this in alot of different posts, but those two things make or break a true Home Theater for me.

I say move the couch back and get a projector!

[JonMarsh]

I have found using a 72-80" screen size for FPTV to still be very satisfying, (that's my current setup, with CRT front projection), and find it does result in a somewhat more punch picture than going hugely larger, just because of the brightness. With the VPL-VW100, it's brightness would mate fairly well with that sort of screen size, whereas the original Qualia 004 would be something of a light torch on that size screen.

If you consider RPTV such as one of the new 1080P wobulated DLPs (which aren't three chip), please spend some time with one with some demanding low light material, to be sure you aren't dissappointed when you get it in your home. Temporal dithering would be my concern. It's a problem with standard DLP's, and may be worse with this technology approach.

Last advise, PLEASE consider repainting your room. You should use a neutral color wall tone, and as dark a one as your SO will allow. Colored walls skew human color perception, and reflected light back on the screen destroys what contrast ratio you have from the projector. If you're reluctant to consider doing that, try hanging cloths temporarily on the ceiling and walls and comparing with the "untreated" room. I think you'll find the difference startling.

Good luck with getting your system sorted out to your satisfaction.

~Jon

[JKalman]

Jeff, you may need to do what I did one day, and can some sets, and just accept technology changes got you. I loaded up a 60" analog RPTV that needed repair, a 35" Mitsu tube style console, and a 26" Sony Console on a trailer and sent them all down the road. I paid a whopping 8 grand total for all those sets, and I literally gave them away. That's right, I got rid of every TV in my home that weighed over 60-70 pounds. I did keep a 20" set in my test system that does have component video inputs I keep for cable testing only. (this is a receiver, dvd, tv, 3 speaker setup for quick cable tests only) IE test system. The only thing I transmit is quick DVD blips.

Anyway, I've done basically the same thing with computer monitors, now I have a 17 and 19" tube style sitting on my work bench to ditch. I've went all LCD/Plasma or front projection. Granted, they are all 1080i at this point. Oh well? It seems we are always behind some technology barrier. I think the only issue will be, I could have to use digital inputs, and use the DVI. But I don't think using the 1080i or 720p will be an issue. That is, I don't think we will have to use 1080p, though of course it will be a nice to have.

They did say by 2009, all tv will be digitally transmitted. I don't think that means has to be 1080p though.

Yeah, I'm not sure wth I'm going to do. I'm having a hard time deciding, by next month I'll have payed off my Best Buy card and will have enough on my other cards to buy the SXRD. I think borrowing a pickup and giving away my old TVs are going to be a must. I have to get rid of one of them for sure, either the 36 inch wega from 5 years ago or the 56 inch Toshiba theatre wide from 6-7 years ago. I would just use the Toshiba as my big screen but it has some noticable burn in on the sides from 7 years of use often without full screen enabled. The SXRD TVs upconvert 1080i to 1080p anyway, so I guess it is not too big a deal if I buy the 60 inch Sony. I did hear that BluRay and HD-DVD will be available with 1080p output.

If the projection screen (Ruby) were a clear cut decision I would do it in a few more months. The problem is, once I buy that I need to change the whole room around, including rewiring and placing some of my sources and/or other components behind my seating position instead of in front where they are now. I'm not even sure exactly how I would pull it off, since the DVD player is my media source for music as well. If I keep the amps up front then I am sending the analog signal a very long way to get to the amps from the DVD player, which could cause skewing of the signal. This would only be a problem with music, so if I get another source, which I plan on doing it is not such a big deal. For DTS and Dolby Digital I can have the digital signal processed by my Bryston SP1.7 and not have to worry about the digital signal getting screwed up too much.

Actually, if Jeff can afford a Lotus and a Mercedes, suffice it to say, he could probably add a new room on for the PJ if he wanted to, lol. Jeff, I'm beginning to hate you. :P

LOL - I took out a large mortgage for the Lotus and the stereo gear, so right now I'll be paying that off for the next few years. I wish it were as cut and dry as me just going out and spending the money freely. Anything I buy now has to be less impulsive decision wise. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have bought the Lotus, as much as I enjoy driving it, it has too many small problems, damn those European sports cars...

[JKalman]

I have found using a 72-80" screen size for FPTV to still be very satisfying, (that's my current setup, with CRT front projection), and find it does result in a somewhat more punch picture than going hugely larger, just because of the brightness. With the VPL-VW100, it's brightness would mate fairly well with that sort of screen size, whereas the original Qualia 004 would be something of a light torch on that size screen.

If you consider RPTV such as one of the new 1080P wobulated DLPs (which aren't three chip), please spend some time with one with some demanding low light material, to be sure you aren't dissappointed when you get it in your home. Temporal dithering would be my concern. It's a problem with standard DLP's, and may be worse with this technology approach.

Last advise, PLEASE consider repainting your room. You should use a neutral color wall tone, and as dark a one as your SO will allow. Colored walls skew human color perception, and reflected light back on the screen destroys what contrast ratio you have from the projector. If you're reluctant to consider doing that, try hanging cloths temporarily on the ceiling and walls and comparing with the "untreated" room. I think you'll find the difference startling.

Good luck with getting your system sorted out to your satisfaction.

~Jon

Thanks for the advice, if I wait for a projector it will be the VPL-VW100 (Ruby), otherwise it will likely be a SXRD 3 chip DLP TV. I want to paint the front wall a dark color if it doesn't work out well, but will likely use black curtains. I would have painted it a dark color to begin with but my wife picked this color for my office without even asking me.

It is good to know that the Ruby will work well at ~70-80", that was my biggest worry.

[JKalman]

Thanks again for all the decision making help, anyone who is responding.

[JKalman]

I would wait a bit.
-----
Having said that, I debated countless hours while doing boring lab tests at work whether to get a 42" 720p Plasma or 720p PJ with an 84" screen. Now that I've had the PJ for awhile, there is just something about an 80-120" screen and reference level bass (that digs deep into the teens) that takes Home Theater to a whole 'nother level for me. I say this in alot of different posts, but those two things make or break a true Home Theater for me.

I say move the couch back and get a projector!

I love your pictures of your road trip around America. That is pretty cool. I used to love doing that kind of stuff when I followed Grateful Dead Tour before Jerry Garcia died. Sadly, with a wife and three kids I can't do that kind of stuff for awhile. When the kids are old enough though I want to buy an RV and travel across country again.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the advice, if I wait for a projector it will be the VPL-VW100 (Ruby), otherwise it will likely be a SXRD 3 chip DLP TV. I want to paint the front wall a dark color if it doesn't work out well, but will likely use black curtains. I would have painted it a dark color to begin with but my wife picked this color for my office without even asking me.

It is good to know that the Ruby will work well at ~70-80", that was my biggest worry.

Just to keep things straight, Sony SXRD is an LCOS (Liquid Crystal on Silicon) chip technology, quite different from Texas Instruments DLP. Most available front projection and rear projection consumer DLP sets are single chip, using a rotating color wheel. The Sony SXRD is a reflective three chip system, like the JVC and Canon LCOS sets.

~Jon

[JKalman]

Ah, that is what I get for listening to the guy at Best Buy. The sales rep told me it uses 3 DLP chips mixed with other technologies.

[JonMarsh]

You wouldn't believe what I've heard some of the guys at our local Best Buy say (Dublin CA.). talk about creative writing.... or, to be exact, a "creative speech" class, I guess.