Dilemma! 4 X 805s or 2x 704s & 2x 705s ?

[JKalman]

Here is a picture of it next to my Sedan, so you can see how small it really is:

[JKalman]

God, I can't wait for the weather to get nice again. I want to be out driving it every day, especially with the top off. :cry:

[JKalman]

Heheh, I learned this from asking those kind of questions of my salesperson when I bought my first surround setup, the 703s, 705s and HTM7 and ASW750. I asked those kinds of questions about the HTM7 and ended up with it, but when I asked about the center channel for the 6 series he also agreed I should go with that and it would sound fine. As we all know, that wasn't the case, and considering how the HTM7 lacked cohesion with the 703s, I shudder to imagine how my old system would have sounded with the 6 series center channel paired with the 703s. I realize looking back now, that he was going to say yes to whatever he thought I wanted without giving me any thoughtful input. He has been very honest though after the fact and even admitted later on that I probably know more about the speakers and electronics than he does. Which is why I don't ask him those kind of questions anymore and instead ask some of the other guys at this particular store who were more helpful in their suggestions and answers.

BTW, I have had worse experiences since then. I might actually request not to have him deliver stuff to my house the next time I buy more gear from them. I researched the Diamond series speakers thoroughly before I bought them and before they dropped them off and unpacked them.

When he unpacked them, he asked if I wanted to take the grills off, and I said no. Then I asked him, though I already knew the answer, "shouldn't I never take the tweeter grill off anyway?"

The answer to this question, especially with the Diamond tweeters is YES! You should never take it off because the Diamond tweeters break very very easily, and all it takes is one slip with the magnetic grill cover for it to be utterly destroyed.

So what does he do... He says, "Not at all. It is Diamond after all, the hardest substance on earth" and as he says this he pulls the tweeter grill off for a few seconds and then puts it back on again, not even carefully. :E I held my breath the entire time.

I almost had a heart attack, but it didn't look like he damaged anything, and they seemed to sound fine when I turned them on and started listening to them. This BTW, was the last question I ever asked him which I already knew the answer to. I probably should have corrected him and told him how dangerous what he did was. It really scared me, then it really pissed me off. :M I mean, he sells the stuff, shouldn't he be required to have this knowledge, which BTW, anyone can read straight from the manual itself, especially since he is installing the stuff?

The other guy who he brought with him was a brand new employee and was constantly being corrected by the more experienced guy for almost doing really stupid things when moving and unpacking the speakers. Needless to say, I was afraid to leave the room, and after seeing all of this, was terrified they did something stupid while I left to grab them a scissor. It wasn't like these were 700 series speakers, light as hell and tweeters almost melded to the cabinet and not very expensive. These were 802Ds, with the tweeter separate and vulnerable, extremely heavy and subject to damage if dropped, and very expensive, at least in terms of what I have spent on speakers during my entire life.

I swear, I've never been so worried as I was when he took that magnetic grill off the tweeter. I do wonder if something happened and should probably look into it with an unaffiliated professional just to be safe. I've been having discrepencies between how far the soundstage extends past the speakers towards the side wall on one side of my speakers compared to the other side. I'm sure it is just my acoustic space, because I have a bookshelf on one side wall, and that one speaker's soundstage doesn't seem to extend as far past the end of the speaker towards the side wall as the other side. I suspect that the bookshelf is absorbing a lot of reflections which is causing the sound field to collapse a little on that side.

Oh, and just so we are clear, I did not in any way give him the impression that I wanted him to take the magnetic grill off the tweeter.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Jeff,
Nice car. Is that the same Lotus they used on the show Top Gear in the UK, against the Apache helicopter? It has a 1.8 litre Toyota Celica engine?
Steel

[JKalman]

Jeff,
Nice car. Is that the same Lotus they used on the show Top Gear in the UK, against the Apache helicopter? It has a 1.8 litre Toyota Celica engine?
Steel

It may be the same one, it could also be the Exige. I've never watched that show, so I can't say. Yes the Elise has the Toyota 1.8 litre 2ZZ engine, also used in super-sports cars of the highest calibre, like the Matrix. :

190 HP and 138 lb/ft torque is extremely responsive and quick in a car that only weighs 1950 lbs. The Lotus design philosophy is what attracted me to the car in the first place. Colin Chapman went against the trend of designing heavier car bodies so you could make more powerful engines and instead made smaller cars so the engine didn't have to be nearly as powerful but still could compete. The ultimate benefit is a car that handles like an extension of your body. That thing can take a 90 degree corner near my house at 60 MPH or more depending on how warm the road is and how warm the tires are.

[JKalman]

I googled "Top Gear in the UK lotus" and it seems it could have been the Elise and/or the Espirit. The Espirit is larger with an 8 cylinder 3.5 litre engine.

That sedan next to my Elise is much faster than the Elise, that's my E55. :T That car is pure acceleration.

Sorry for getting off topic... :B

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Hi Jeff,
The reason I asked is because your car looked like the one on that show. I love that show but am only able to watch it when in Europe on business. In November they tested a black Lotus with the Toyota 1.8. They said that it was not very fast but it handled amazing, on eof the best they ever tested. They put the Lotus against an Apache helicopter and when close, the Apache could not target the Lotus.
Only when the Apache was 2 miles away could they hit it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/downloads/lotus_vs_apache_broadband.ram

Nice Mercedes. I am not a fan of Mercedes because every one that family members had was junk. Always breaking down and too expensive to fix. And these were models throughout the range. When switched to Lexus and B&W, troubles gone. Good luck. I bet it is fast.
Steel

[EastCoaster]

The sound as it travels from the front to back and from the back to front can be out of synchronization height wise, but this might not be as much an issue with the differences between the 805 and 804 size wise. It could be an issue with the Dolby and THX standards defining the surround channels as elevated a little higher than the stand mounts for the 805s are designed to reach. So the soundtracks are engineered for the speakers to possibly be about 4-6 feet higher possibly causing a discontinuity when your speakers are not mounted as high as the specifications define.

Thanks Jeff - I think I understand what you're saying. I remember reading the B&W documentation and it said that sorround speakers should be higher than fronts, and about 2 feet (60 cm) above ear height. I've actually asked the dealer whether he has speaker stands that would be about 35-40 inches high (I'm planning on putting the fronts on 22-inch high stands). I simply can't hang the sorrounds up on the wall (won't work in my space), and it would be odd (and probably unstable) to put them on anything higher than 35-40 inches. The stands that B&W makes for the 805 aren't high enough for the sorrounds, they would only be good for the front L&R.

I truly agree with grit that spending the most on the front left and right speakers and adding surrounds later is worth it if that allows you to move up to a speaker like the 803S.

Sure - I understand and agree. In my case, I will probably watch HT at least 50% of the time so having sorrounds straightaway is important to me. But also having an incomplete system is a bit against my personality... I can be in an "add to a system" mode if I know I am buying non-returnable/upgradable speakers, but if everything is upgradable, I figure I might as well start somewhere, see how I like it, and then see if it's worth upgrading within my alloted upgrade period... [/QUOTE]

The 802D has terrific bass without a subwoofer so my system won't suffer too much for the lack of a sub until I can afford a really nice one down the road. First things first, I think my next purchase is going to be the Ayre C-5xe. I'll be demo-ing it against my Denon DVD-5910 this coming week, hopefully Tuesday or Wednesday to see if I feel like making the investment or if I want to put the money somewhere else, like towards a pair of 803D speakers (since I heard they are not going to release 805Ds anytime in the near future). This will make my system a 4.0 setup. I might even decide to save up for 802Ds all around, or, God forbid, move the 802Ds to the back and get some 800Ds (nah, my wife would castrate me if I went that far - I would have to sell the Lotus if I wanted to pull that one off).

I admire you for having the patience to add to a system and build it slowly - I'm less patient and want to start out with a complete system. But then I also have the extra peace of mind of being able to return an item or upgrade it without a penalty. The reason I'm so comfortable with starting out with the ASW700, is that I know I can upgrade it to the ASW825 at a later date. What I'm hoping to do is see if I can take one home with me for a few days, then compare them directly!

Don't sell that Lotus - that is one sweet car! :T It looks like a little wild animal! I haven't seen this Lotus in that color - that's really nice! How often do you drive it?

I personally think you would have benefitted more from auditioning everything, which is why I've been suggesting you do so for the last few days. If you audition thoroughly you will have less uncertainties. I think trying out the 804S and the 803S would have been a good experience, so you could see how the sound evolves as you move up the line, and perhaps you would have noticed that saving up more money and getting a floorstander would have been worth it.

I undestand. Those have been out of my $$ comfort level for the moment. I'm sure they are fantastic speakers, and I'm planning on listening to them in the future, but even initially I wanted to concentrate on bookshelf speakers given the size and space of my listening environment (it's too tiny to justify floorstanders, when I can get very close to their sound with a bookshelf and a sub). Does that mean I won't move to an 804 or 803? Hmmmm... I'm definitely an upgrade whore, and so once I bring my 805s home and spend a couple of months getting comfortable with them, I'll probably be back out there listening some more! Perhaps a possibility would be to buy a pair of 803s second-hand (if they are just a couple of years old). Maybe I can do that here? :B

If I could go back and change my choice in colors I would get the Rosenut instead of the Cherry. The Cherry was lighter than I expected, that is what I get for not following my own advice. Well actually, that is why I advised you to go in and look at them in person...

I have to tell you, the Cherry is gorgeous... It really reveals the wood grain, and since one spends so much on these veneers, why not show them off? Was the Cherry too light for your decor? I can see where one has to have some pretty airy and light-colored furniture for the Cherry. I have to say the B&W website does a pretty bad job at showing off "color swatches", it was most unhelpful.

The principle concerning the interaction between your sub and the rest of your speakers is comparable to the principle concerning the interaction between your center channel and your front left and right speakers, though perhaps not as immediately noticeable because we tend to notice the mid and high range octaves more immediately. The only thing size should effect is whether you buy an ASW800 instead of an ASW825 or ASW855 not whether you buy a subwoofer which is not designed to match the rest of your speakers.

Yes - as you mentioned, I have to A/B that in a controlled setting - that is my next task! If there was an ASW800 that would match the 8**S series , I probably would buy it, but I don't see that on the B&W website (all they show is ASW825 and ASW855).

I wouldn't start switching everything around on the poor guy if you didn't take the time to audition everything, he might start hiding when you come by the shop. I'm kidding, but seriously though, people do have limits before they start to get frustrated.

Though, considering he didn't give you a discount, I guess you shouldn't feel too obligated to avoid making him work harder.

Did you get the upgrade promise on paper, did you have a witness with you, or did he list it as part of his business policy somewhere.

I doubt he's frustrated with my switching around... After all, every time I make a switch I'm dropping several thousand more dollars at his shop! :lol: I would guess he's fairly happy seeing me making my switches! But on a more serious note, he's a kind and patient guy, very knowledgeable, and understands that I'm a newbie, and just trying to find my way around a very complicated and expensive transaction that is full of subjective observations. If he wasn't that way, I'd go somewhere else. And yup, the upgrade policy is part of his business policy. And yup, he gave me a discount, which is as good as I could have expected given his liberal policies.

I am personally looking forward to seeing how it ends up looking and how you set it up in your space. Some before and after pictures would be cool also, I wish I took some of my system before hand.

Well, in my case the "before" pictures will be easy: there will be none! I decided to start up a new system scratch (I sold the previous home theatre system, including my 320-pound 36 inch Sony XBR450 - you should have seen what it was like to move that BEAST). I've bought everything anew from the same dealer, including a new TV.

B&W designs the 8 series stands specifically for the 805 speaker. They are very well constructed, not to mention aesthetically pleasing when paired with the speakers they were specifically designed for. They are balanced correctly for that one speaker and that one speaker only, this designed balance falls all the way through to the rubber pads and spikes that you put on the bottom to stabilize the speakers as well. They are also an exact height which B&W says is the height that the speaker was designed to be at off of the floor, though this could be relative to floorstanders since most people mix and match, using 805s for surrounds and floorstanders in the front, but hey, you may still decide to upgrade later on down the road, or years from now you may buy new front speakers. You have come so far, why cut such a small corner now? :P

Well, my question would be: how can the 805s be put on these stands for sorrounds, if the company itself says the speaker should be 2 feet above ear height? I think they want us to mount the speaker on the wall, which I can't do... And if I'd like the stands to match the front and back, I can do that with a different brand, but not with B&W (never mind the cost differential which is about $300 between 4xB&W and 4X good looking, solid all metal stand - you're right, if I've spent so much already, the extra $$ is not a big deal).

If you only ask a salesperson, he/she is usually going to agree with whatever he/she thinks you want them to agree with. It is a common sales philosophy, "the customer is always right". A good sales person can tell what you want as an answer from them by how you ask the question, e.g. - "I would be fine with an ASW700 subwoofer if my space is small and I have a lot of neighbors, do you think"?

That is certainly a possibility, but isn't it also sometimes true that when you say: "what would you recommend", some sales people go directly to the more expensive option, or the option that they have a large inventory in, or the option that will get them the largest commission, etc.? My dealer is very honest, and always has an opinion (which is one of the reasons I like him so much - he has an opinion and doesn't mind sharing it, unlike some salespeople who say: "yes, you can go this way, and yes, you can go that way, it depends on what you want...").

....considering how the HTM7 lacked cohesion with the 703s, I shudder to imagine how my old system would have sounded with the 6 series center channel paired with the 703s.

Yup! And that's why I joined this forum, to benefit and learn from you and others. You guys have spent years and an untold amount of $$ perfecting your systems, and you have extremely valuable insights. Had I not listened and read on this forum, I would have never known that the HTM7 lacked cohesion with the 703s, or a number of other factors that should be considered. I'm sure the B&W people are lurking around here as well, and learning along the way... 8)

[EastCoaster]

Here is a picture of it next to my Sedan, so you can see how small it really is:

Wow - man you sure go all out on everything! Super sedan, super stereo, super fair-weather car!

[EastCoaster]

When he unpacked them, he asked if I wanted to take the grills off, and I said no. Then I asked him, though I already knew the answer, "shouldn't I never take the tweeter grill off anyway?"

The answer to this question, especially with the Diamond tweeters is YES! You should never take it off because the Diamond tweeters break very very easily, and all it takes is one slip with the magnetic grill cover for it to be utterly destroyed.

So what does he do... He says, "Not at all. It is Diamond after all, the hardest substance on earth" and as he says this he pulls the tweeter grill off for a few seconds and then puts it back on again, not even carefully. :E I held my breath the entire time.

I almost had a heart attack, but it didn't look like he damaged anything, and they seemed to sound fine when I turned them on and started listening to them.

These were 802Ds, with the tweeter separate and vulnerable, extremely heavy and subject to damage if dropped, and very expensive, at least in terms of what I have spent on speakers during my entire life.

I swear, I've never been so worried as I was when he took that magnetic grill off the tweeter.

Oh, and just so we are clear, I did not in any way give him the impression that I wanted him to take the magnetic grill off the tweeter.

That is ridiculous! :E I would be as pissed off as you were, and utterly neurotic about it! Knowing me, I'd be absolutely convinced that he damaged it, and that I just spent $8,000 on "broken" speakers! :M

Speaking of these outside tweeters, how should they be handled? Do they arrive attached out of the box? (looks kind of flimsy) How do they ensure that the tweeter is not damaged in a box situation? And I've also seen a couple of photos where people put some kind of a felt pad right under the tail of the tweeter (maybe to protect it?) The mysteries of the tweeter!

[JKalman]

Thanks Jeff - I think I understand what you're saying. I remember reading the B&W documentation and it said that sorround speakers should be higher than fronts, and about 2 feet (60 cm) above ear height. I've actually asked the dealer whether he has speaker stands that would be about 35-40 inches high (I'm planning on putting the fronts on 22-inch high stands). I simply can't hang the sorrounds up on the wall (won't work in my space), and it would be odd (and probably unstable) to put them on anything higher than 35-40 inches. The stands that B&W makes for the 805 aren't high enough for the sorrounds, they would only be good for the front L&R.

Those numbers for speaker height are actually a Dolby, DTS and THX specification for surround speakers used in movie soundtrack reproduction. So it will actually not be the same for Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio. High definition audio, unlike movie soundtracks, require that the drivers be at the same heights, i.e. - the tweeters be the same heights, the mid range drivers be the same heights, etc. So you do want your speakers to be at the height of the B&W stand for music playback.

Also, I stated in the previous posts that it "might" be the cause of the inconsistencies between front and back that I notices in movies, which implies that it might not be as well. It could be a few other things which I also mentioned. It is possible that movie soundtrack formats are now taking normal speaker height into consideration when making soundtracks for movies on DVDs. I just don't know.

B&W actually states that for the 805 bookshelf speakers, their FS-N805 (<-- the model name) stand mounts are the correct height for the 805. I paraphrased that directly from the 800 series manual. I would buy the FS-N805 stands because no one else will design the stand exclusively for that speaker, and if anyone does, they don't have the kind of information about the 805 speaker that B&W has to do the job best. Principles of sound engineering were likely used to ensure that the 805s are balanced correctly on FS-N805 stands. I know from the 705 stands that B&W designs its stands to be very stable and with hollow tubes that can be filled with material (sand, gravel, or whatever else you think might enhance the acoustic properties of the stand as it vibrates while the speaker is in use). The 705 stands are a different model and are designed exclusively for the 705s and as such are different, but I'm sure they do the same type of research, if not more for the 805 stands.

[JKalman]

Yes - as you mentioned, I have to A/B that in a controlled setting - that is my next task! If there was an ASW800 that would match the 8**S series , I probably would buy it, but I don't see that on the B&W website (all they show is ASW825 and ASW855).

I think it is discontinued, and it was only around 300 dollars cheaper. I would go with the ASW825 or the ASW855 if I were you. It doesn't make sense to me why you were insistent on matching all the surroud speakers exactly, but not the subwoofer. Since you chose bookshelf speakers, the subwoofer is going to be the single most important element in your system for the lower octaves of all your music and movies. The 805s won't extend far into the bass ranges, and where it does extend to in those ranges, it will be weak. Taking this into account, going with the ASW855 would be the best option IMO.

I hope your dealer keeps one of those ASW8** subs in stock, because if he doesn't, I don't see how you will be able to compare one to the ASW700 without upgrading. If the dealer has one in the store, I don't see why you didn't wait for the 805s and the HTM4S to come in and use his for a few days to see how it sounds, then made a decision on which one to order.

[JKalman]

Well, my question would be: how can the 805s be put on these stands for sorrounds, if the company itself says the speaker should be 2 feet above ear height? I think they want us to mount the speaker on the wall, which I can't do... And if I'd like the stands to match the front and back, I can do that with a different brand, but not with B&W (never mind the cost differential which is about $300 between 4xB&W and 4X good looking, solid all metal stand - you're right, if I've spent so much already, the extra $$ is not a big deal).

The company doesn't say that at all. You can download the 800 series manual from their website. They discuss the 805 and the center channel in the same paragraph on page 4. For the SCMS and DS8 speakers, which are wall mounted, it doesn't recommend a height at all.

The B&W stands have screw holes and so do the 805 speakers. They are designed to match each other perfectly. I don't know what else to say. I just feel like it is worth it to buy the best designed stands for your top of the line B&W bookshelf speakers. How you ground those speakers will have a subtle effect on the sound IMO. It isn't like someone won't buy them later on down the road if you sell the speakers, since they will need them also.

[JKalman]

I have to tell you, the Cherry is gorgeous... It really reveals the wood grain, and since one spends so much on these veneers, why not show them off? Was the Cherry too light for your decor? I can see where one has to have some pretty airy and light-colored furniture for the Cherry. I have to say the B&W website does a pretty bad job at showing off "color swatches", it was most unhelpful.

...

Well, in my case the "before" pictures will be easy: there will be none! I decided to start up a new system scratch (I sold the previous home theatre system, including my 320-pound 36 inch Sony XBR450 - you should have seen what it was like to move that BEAST). I've bought everything anew from the same dealer, including a new TV.

My setup with my 36 inch XBR. The cherry in that picture is darker than they look in person for some reason. I guess I know what it is like to move that BEAST. More than once in fact, I orginally had my 56 inch Toshiba Theatre wide in here but got tired of the burn in so I put it in the kids' playroom. I knew I was getting a fully high definition (1920x1080) TV in the near future so I took this older one from their playroom for the time being. If I knew it would take this long to upgrade the TV though, I would have stuck with the 56 inch rear projector for now. We also moved two of the XBRs from my old house to this new house. The second XBR is upstairs in our living room in this house.

I hope you got a TV with true high definition resolution capabilities (one that displays 1920 x 1080). Most of the TVs on the market accept a 1080i signal, but they don't actual display anywhere near that resolution. Most display around half or less. The 1080p TVs which just started hitting the market recently are capable of true 1080i (as I said above 1920 x 1080 resolution). Everything new for the next 10 years will be using 1920 x 1080 resolution: BluRay, HD-DVD, Xbox360, Playstation 3, etc...

I'm waiting for them to release a 60+ inch 1920x1080 Sony SXRD with 1080p inputs, or for them to make a fix for their current 1920x1080 Sony SXRD 60 inch 1080p TV so it can accept 1080p inputs. It is sort of annoying that they call all these new TVs 1080p TVs, well misleading actually, since they only upscale 1080i or signals below that to 1080p, but they don't actually take in a 1080p signal from 1080p sources. I am still considering buying the Sony Ruby VPL VW100 front projector which does take one 1080p input, but that seems like a little too much for my space considering the price. I'd be spending a lot of money on it but wouldn't be able to use it for a screen size bigger than 100 inches probably. The money could be spent better somewhere else, like on another set of 802Ds to use as surround speakers or 803Ds to use as surround speakers, or some nice monoblocks or two channel amps for either biwiring or biamping my 802Ds.

I actually have enough for the SXRD TV right now, but since they don't have the 1080p inputs on them, I'm going out to test the Ayre C-5xe and possibly bring one home to demo this next week as a dedicated stereo source for all format disc playback. I hope it lives up to all the hype, well, that isn't true, I hope it doesn't and that my Denon DVD-5910 sounds just as good, that way I can save up for a really nice set of surround speakers... Perhaps I could even purchase 800Ds for the fronts. After all, the Denon DVD-5910 uses the same DACs as the Ayre C-5xe, but cut corners on other areas in the output stages. What a shame...

That gives me an idea. If my dealer is willing, I will ask tomorrow if I can trade in my 802Ds and upgrade to the 800Ds. Those are the speakers I have always really wanted, the 802Ds were just a substitute. Then I could save up for some Classe Omnicrons. Screw home theatre, music all the way! The question, of course, is if the 5% difference in sound quality between them is worth $8000 dollars more in price. :E I could buy the 803Ds for that price difference, or for $4k more another pair of 802Ds.

[EastCoaster]

The company doesn't say that at all. You can download the 800 series manual from their website. They discuss the 805 and the center channel in the same paragraph on page 4. For the SCMS and DS8 speakers, which are wall mounted, it doesn't recommend a height at all.

The B&W stands have screw holes and so do the 805 speakers. They are designed to match each other perfectly. I don't know what else to say. I just feel like it is worth it to buy the best designed stands for your top of the line B&W bookshelf speakers. How you ground those speakers will have a subtle effect on the sound IMO. It isn't like someone won't buy them later on down the road if you sell the speakers, since they will need them also.

Yup - the cost differential is not significant, and I should go for it (the fact that the foot print is the same and there are holes drilled for the speaker clinched it!).

That leaves me in a bit of bind though on the back L&R sorrounds, unless I misunderstood the B&W reference material? I read the User Manual, and on page 3, the following appears:

2.8 SURROUND SPEAKER HEIGHT
If you use the system for movies, place
the speakers approximately 60cm (2 ft)
above ear height. (figure 16)
This is also the preferred height for the
dipole mode of the DS8S in all
applications, although it may also be
mounted on the ceiling. Try to keep it
around 0.5m (20 in) from the side wall.
(figure 17)

So, if that's true, placing the speakers on the B&W stand would be great for multichannel music, but not so great for sorround HT (although I am starting to think that it doesn't matter "all" that much for the latter - better to have the speakers aligned for music).

My goodness, we are covering all the topics in the forum on a single thread! I should save this thread for the next newbie that comes along!

Thanks for your continued advice!

[JKalman]

That leaves me in a bit of bind though on the back L&R sorrounds, unless I misunderstood the B&W reference material? I read the User Manual, and on page 3, the following appears:

2.8 SURROUND SPEAKER HEIGHT
If you use the system for movies, place
the speakers approximately 60cm (2 ft)
above ear height. (figure 16)
This is also the preferred height for the
dipole mode of the DS8S in all
applications, although it may also be
mounted on the ceiling. Try to keep it
around 0.5m (20 in) from the side wall.
(figure 17)

Ah, thanks for the correction, I probably read that initially, when I set up my speakers, and forgot about it since music is more important to me than HT. I know HT surround speakers are placed that high because of the THX, Dolby and DTS format specifications, I forgot that B&W had it in their manual. I only went back to read up on the 805 specifically when I was checking on what they had to say about the 805 and stands.

[JKalman]

That leaves me in a bit of bind though on the back L&R sorrounds, unless I misunderstood the B&W reference material? I read the User Manual, and on page 3, the following appears:

I don't think it will be a huge issue. I would personally do what B&W recommends, but that is easy for me to say since they recommend the solution that suits me best as a music listener.

[EastCoaster]

My setup with my 36 inch XBR. The cherry in that picture is darker than they look in person for some reason.

Hmmm.. For some reason the photo didn't work when the page loaded? Odd.

I guess I know what it is like to move that BEAST. More than once in fact, I orginally had my 56 inch Toshiba Theatre wide in here but got tired of the burn in so I put it in the kids' playroom. I knew I was getting a fully high definition (1920x1080) TV in the near future so I took this older one from their playroom for the time being.

I hope you got a TV with true high definition resolution capabilities (one that displays 1920 x 1080).

Have you taken a look at the Sharp 45 inch LCD? (the LC-45GD5U) That television is 1920 x 1080 and you'll never have screen burn-in.... Its street price is about $4,900 but you can get it on a good and authorized Internet dealer (J&R or Dtvcity) for about $3,800. It's colors are magical - it's a really beautiful set. I almost bought that one, but then when I saw how much I had to pay for speakers, I scaled back and bought the LC-37GD4U (which doesn't have that same high resolution, but is still built-in HD). I figured that was the safest bet for now as there isn't much 1080 content right now, I'm sitting too close to the TV anyway in my current (rented) pad, and in a year or two, I'll get upgradetitis for sure, and will move the 37" to the bedroom, and buy the 45"! I do look at the 37" LCD as a "bedroom set"...

I'm waiting for them to release a 60+ inch 1920x1080 Sony SXRD with 1080p inputs, or for them to make a fix for their current 1920x1080 Sony SXRD 60 inch 1080p TV so it can accept 1080p inputs.

I've also seen lots of manufacturers do this trick - they say the TV is 1080, but it only accepts 1080 via the DVI cable (then no sound!) or it upscales it, or whatever - I just wish they would be honest with it all...

That gives me an idea. If my dealer is willing, I will ask tomorrow if I can trade in my 802Ds and upgrade to the 800Ds. Those are the speakers I have always really wanted, the 802Ds were just a substitute. Then I could save up for some Classe Omnicrons. Screw home theatre, music all the way! The question, of course, is if the 5% difference in sound quality between them is worth $8000 dollars more in price. :E I could buy the 803Ds for that price difference, or for $4k more another pair of 802Ds.

My goodness! You have great speakers right now... How long have you had the 802Ds? And is 5% difference in sound quality worth $8,000? Hmmm... I'm the wrong person to ask that of, as I was spitting blood spending $4,000 more for 10%... :lol:

[JKalman]

Don't sell that Lotus - that is one sweet car! :T It looks like a little wild animal! I haven't seen this Lotus in that color - that's really nice! How often do you drive it?

During the winter, not often enough. I can't take it out when it is wet or there is snow in my driveway, since it has street legal racing slicks on it and since road salt will ruin the car. During the other seasons, I drive it as much as I can. I don't drive it in the rain because the trunk hatch lets water in and while that won't destroy anything, it just bothers me...

[JKalman]

Have you taken a look at the Sharp 45 inch LCD? (the LC-45GD5U) That television is 1920 x 1080 and you'll never have screen burn-in.... Its street price is about $4,900 but you can get it on a good and authorized Internet dealer (J&R or Dtvcity) for about $3,800. It's colors are magical - it's a really beautiful set. I almost bought that one, but then when I saw how much I had to pay for speakers, I scaled back and bought the LC-37GD4U (which doesn't have that same high resolution, but is still built-in HD). I figured that was the safest bet for now as there isn't much 1080 content right now, I'm sitting too close to the TV anyway in my current (rented) pad, and in a year or two, I'll get upgradetitis for sure, and will move the 37" to the bedroom, and buy the 45"! I do look at the 37" LCD as a "bedroom set"...

I'm only in the market for TVs that are 1920 x 1080 resolution which accept 1080p signals. Right now only HP has a rear projection one which is using DLP technology, and I'm not interested in wobulated technologies since I see the rainbows that appear on the screens very often. Other than that I think the Sony Ruby front projector I mentioned is the only other one with 1080p inputs ATM, at least that I know of or that are worth consideration.

I've also seen lots of manufacturers do this trick - they say the TV is 1080, but it only accepts 1080 via the DVI cable (then no sound!) or it upscales it, or whatever - I just wish they would be honest with it all...

1080i (interlaced) and 1080p (progressive scan) are different things, the 1080 means they share the same resolution. The Sony SXRD accepts 1080i, it doesn't accept a 1080p signal. If it turns out Sony is developing a fix for it then it wasn't being dishonest, they could just be waiting for the standard to undergo some final definitions. Since it is going to take the signals through HDMI, a digital interface, it is probably a very simple fix related to reprogramming the firmware so it will handle the signal differently if the user sets the input jack to 1080p mode. The 1080p format standard is still being defined, or was just finished recently, but obviously this didn't stop them from putting it in their Ruby front projector...

There are only a couple of devices on the market that were just released which put out a 1080p signal. the newer Denon DVD-5910s have a 1080p output, so the player upscales normal DVD to 1080p, the older DVD-5910 players output DVD upscaled to 1080i through the HDMI port. BluRay and HD-DVD players will output in both 1080i and 1080p, and the Sony Playstation 3 will output in 1080p as well. Most of the 1080 (1920 x 1080) resolution devices will do both 1080i and 1080p to begin with, but the higher end stuff will look a lot better on 1080p since the frames will not be interlaced but rather progressive.

Having a TV which accepts 1080p inputs means I will be future proof for some time to come on my HT/music system. At the least I want to be future proof for high end BluRay, HD-DVD and Playstation 3 since their standards are being defined for 1080p, or so I have heard.

[JKalman]

That is ridiculous! :E I would be as pissed off as you were, and utterly neurotic about it! Knowing me, I'd be absolutely convinced that he damaged it, and that I just spent $8,000 on "broken" speakers! :M

Yeah, what can I do though at this point? He obviously doesn't know much about the field he is in, especially if the people he works for specialize in B&W speakers and he doesn't know that about the tweeters. The guy sells them, he installs them, not to mention that they have been out for awhile now, and he is around them all day while working. How can he not know something like that at this point? I'm sure if something were wrong with them I would have noticed it by now. I hope. :M

[EastCoaster]

During the winter, not often enough. I can't take it out when it is wet or there is snow in my driveway, since it has street legal racing slicks on it and since road salt will ruin the car. During the other seasons, I drive it as much as I can. I don't drive it in the rain because the trunk hatch lets water in and while that won't destroy anything, it just bothers me...

That car is slick.... I used to own little sports cars years ago... (Datsun 300ZX and an MR2) but have gotten out of the habit of driving... I think if I bought another car it would be a little vintage number.... The Detroit Auto Show is on this week - all the car makers are coming out with these pseudo muscle cars.. But anyway - that's off topic - sorry! :B

[grit]

Hi Grit - thanks for those comments - much appreciated. Can I ask why are you considering an upgrade from the 703's? That looks to be a terrific speaker! And what do you think you would upgrade it to? How big is your listening room?

Warning ! This is JUST MY OPINION !

I think the B&W 700 series speakers are bright. I'm considering 803's but contemplating Thiel and Aerial Acoustics also. My listening room is rather small... about 13'x18'.

[EastCoaster]

I'm only in the market for TVs that are 1920 x 1080 resolution which accept 1080p signals.

I believe that the Sharp LC-45GD5U is 1080i / 1080p signal. My brother just bought it (he was originally looking for a plasma but was stunned by how good that LCD picture looks). And at $3,800 (Internet), that television probably can't be beat right now...

There are only a couple of devices on the market that were just released which put out a 1080p signal.

Having a TV which accepts 1080p inputs means I will be future proof for some time to come on my HT/music system. At the least I want to be future proof for high end BluRay, HD-DVD and Playstation 3 since their standards are being defined for 1080p, or so I have heard.

Yup - even my brand new Yamaha DVD player upscales only to 1080i, and my receiver upscales 480i to 1080i/720p... Oh well, it will look "good enough" I guess, for now... Have you seen the difference in picture quality? Is it very pronounced?

[EastCoaster]

Warning ! This is JUST MY OPINION !

I think the B&W 700 series speakers are bright. I'm considering 803's but contemplating Thiel and Aerial Acoustics also. My listening room is rather small... about 13'x18'.

Ahhh - interesting! I thought the 700s sounded a bit washed out and lackluster when compared to the 800s, and the treble not as sweet and crystal-cracking - as you know I ended up paying double for what I thought was an extra 10% in quality... (but only after much soul searching and hand-wringing on here!) :lol:

[EastCoaster]

Jeff, any ideas on speaker cables to run the 800s? I just figure a good 12 gague cable, with good Monster self-crimping banana tips should do it, no? Do you subscribe to the $10 a foot cable variety? :W

[JKalman]

Jeff, any ideas on speaker cables to run the 800s? I just figure a good 12 gague cable, with good Monster self-crimping banana tips should do it, no? Do you subscribe to the $10 a foot cable variety? :W

I've been using fairly cheap cables. I do plan on upgrading to silver cables at some point, but that point seems to get further and further away as I buy other gear I feel I need more. For instance I might spend all the money I've saved for the last few months on upgrading my speakers from the 802Ds to the 800Ds. My other option was to buy an Ayre C-5xe for 6k. If I upgrade the speakers I'll continue to use the Denon DVD-5910 for all my source material.

[EastCoaster]

I've been using fairly cheap cables. I do plan on upgrading to silver cables at some point

Hmmmm.. What are "silver cables"? And will you trade your D's in? Or sell them on the open market?

[JKalman]

Trade them in for full refund towards the 800Ds.

Silver cables use silver to conduct the signal instead of copper.

[EastCoaster]

Trade them in for full refund towards the 800Ds.

Silver cables use silver to conduct the signal instead of copper.

Interesting - I always wonder if one can hear a difference using expensive wires (in an A/B test)... It would be really interesting to hear how the 800Ds would work out for ya..

[JKalman]

Interesting - I always wonder if one can hear a difference using expensive wires (in an A/B test)...

Something tells me my virgin opinion on this topic would not be welcome according to the forum rules. :W I admit I don't have any experiencing testing if "it" is true or not.

I do believe that nicely constructed cables are a good thing and can make your setup look nicer. I can't say I have had much experience testing whether or not the whole "thing" is true. I'm thinking of buying cables from the forum sponser because for the materials used they are priced fairly and they look well constructed, and well, Lex is a great guy. Considering the return policy, I don't see how you can go wrong...

[JKalman]

If I did A/B test at all and, because of such testing, my opinion had any merit, I would not be so nice about it.

[EastCoaster]

B&W designs the 8 series stands specifically for the 805 speaker. They are very well constructed, not to mention aesthetically pleasing when paired with the speakers they were specifically designed for. They are balanced correctly for that one speaker and that one speaker only, this designed balance falls all the way through to the rubber pads and spikes that you put on the bottom to stabilize the speakers as well. They are also an exact height which B&W says is the height that the speaker was designed to be at off of the floor, though this could be relative to floorstanders since most people mix and match, using 805s for surrounds and floorstanders in the front, but hey, you may still decide to upgrade later on down the road, or years from now you may buy new front speakers. You have come so far, why cut such a small corner now? :P

Well, I just checked on the price of the stands - they are $600 a pair! (that's about half the price of an 805S) I think I'll let B&W keep them... :B

[EastCoaster]

I do believe that nicely constructed cables are a good thing and can make your setup look nicer. I can't say I have had much experience testing whether or not the whole "thing" is true.

Well, the way my audiophile family members put it, it's warranted to pay almost double the price for a speaker if one can get a 10-20% better sound out of the speaker (which is in-line with how you and others on the forum suggested when choosing between a 705S or an 805S). The way my "education" went on the issue of wires, they asked me whether I was willing to quadruple the price to get a 1% or 2% difference in sound quality (which is what they said I would get from buying a $500 wire, rather than a $30 12-gague wire (especially for short distances such as 10 to 20 feet). Needless to say, I've got lots of inexpensive wire laying in spools on the floor... <oh when will my speakers be delivered....?>

[JKalman]

Well, I just checked on the price of the stands - they are $600 a pair! (that's about half the price of an 805S) I think I'll let B&W keep them... :B

See, you could have bought the floorstanding speakers instead and not worried about the stands at all. :

[EastCoaster]

See, you could have bought the floorstanding speakers instead and not worried about the stands at all. :

Well, this way, I get to eat something other than pasta and potatos for the next few months... hehe But I also have to keep something in the wings to be looking forward to, for when I develop upgradtitis... :W I think what I'll probably end up with is two 805S in the back, two 804S or 803S in the front, and the matching center and sub. I'll have to invest another $5,000 in the system (it will be easier doing that in a few months). Have you auditioned the 804s or the 803s? Do you have a preference?

[Karma]

HI East,
Boy, I don't know where you are buying your 805S's. Mine cost $2500 a pair 3 months ago. I did get a SMALL discount though.

Yes, the stands do seem expensive but I bought them anyway. They are very well done and, IMO, look great. My 805's are black and look terrific on the stands. The speakers can be spiked to the stands and the stands spiked to the floor. There are cable channels built into the uprights with adequate entrance and exit ports so you can hide your speaker wiring. The uprights can be filled with sand or whatever magic substance you wish. Gaskets are provided so the sand won't leak out.

My stands are fully spiked and filled with a mixture of fine sand and lead shot. I have not weighed them but they are heavy. I would guess about 70 lbs. I use the cable channels. My cables are quite difficult to hide yet the stands work perfectly.

Finally, you have several options for mounting the speakers on the stand. You can mount them directly flat on the platform or you can use the provided small adhesive feet or you can use the supplied spikes. I use and suggest spikes (four per speaker).

That presented a problem for me bacause there is a lot traffic passing close to the speakers. I was concerned they would be bumped off the stands unless they were secured. B&W supplies flat head machine screws to do this very thing. The problem is that if you use spikes, the screws are not long enough to reach the threaded holes on the bottom of the speaker. I solved this by buying longer screws. They are metric so take one with you when you go to your screw store so you can match the threads. I don't tighten them much; just snug them up.

Eventhough I clinched my teeth at the cost, I think they are well worth the money.

Oh, did I mention that they look great? I did? Well, sorry. 8)

Sparky

[JKalman]

Well, this way, I get to eat something other than pasta and potatos for the next few months... hehe But I also have to keep something in the wings to be looking forward to, for when I develop upgradtitis... :W I think what I'll probably end up with is two 805S in the back, two 804S or 803S in the front, and the matching center and sub. I'll have to invest another $5,000 in the system (it will be easier doing that in a few months). Have you auditioned the 804s or the 803s? Do you have a preference?

The 803S of course. Much more there than on the 804S, which is why I was hoping you would demo it.

[EastCoaster]

Eventhough I clinched my teeth at the cost, I think they are well worth the money.

Oh, did I mention that they look great? I did? Well, sorry. 8)

Sparky

Yes, you did mention that... :lol: But on principle, I refuse to pay $1,200 for four stands... I know, I know, they sound absolutely lovely, but I'd rather put that money toward a 45 inch LCD or the 803s which you said sound great (the difference between what I paid for a non 1080p 37 inch LCD and a 45 inch 1080P LDC is about $1,200). I still don't know what the four 805s will sound like in my house, and whether I'll truly get into SACD enough to justify getting all four identical speakers, or whether that particular set-up will even sound so much better than two floorstanding + two sats (with movies or DTS...) but, I'll say this, if I'm not knocked over, I'm upgrading quicker than a jackrabbit! (and yes, next on my agenda is to go listen to the WHOLE 800 line). I've already figured out what the upgrade diff will cost and it's below $5,000 (so if I just don't tell anyone I'm doing it, except on this forum, I should be okay! :B )

[Karma]

HI East,
On principle, I agree with your principle. The only trouble is that if you buy "bookshelf" type speakers you have to have a place to put them. They just don't work well on the floor (unless you are much shorter than average :W ). The 805's also don't work well on bookshelves in spite of their type casting.

Let us reason together. Seems to me that one must buy stands of some kind. Now the question becomes "which ones?". Well, there's apple crates. Or stacked books (dangerous). Or suspend from the ceiling. Or.....well you get the point. We are limited on options and good stands make a lot of sense.

So the price decision is whether we buy cheap third party stands or the real deal. Does it make sense to install really good B&W's on really ugly, shaky, nasty stands that have poor fit, unreliable paint, sharp edges to cut your expensive cables and, perhaps, no way to secure the speakers? Well, that's your call. It doesn't make sense to me.

I know there are some good third party stands available and they are viable options. But, guess what? The good ones are also expensive. So the decision now comes down to expensive third party stands or expensive B&W's.

Given how well thought out B&W stands are, I personally feel that saving a little money (if that is actually the case) is not justified. One simply must factor the cost of the stands into the cost of the speakers. Let's see.....scratch, scratch,.... that makes the 805's plus stands go for $3100 per pair excluding discounts, right? Certainly that is not cheap but the result is really excellent. You get what you pay for. It's a Cosmic Law.

Why do we buy B&W? Because they are great. That's easy. They are also expensive. That's easy too. The two go together; great and expensive. The proper path seems obvious. Another easy one.

Oh, did I mention they look terrific too? :T

Sparky

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
On principle, I agree with your principle. The only trouble is that if you buy "bookshelf" type speakers you have to have a place to put them. They just don't work well on the floor (unless you are much shorter than average :W ). The 805's also don't work well on bookshelves in spite of their type casting.

Let us reason together. Seems to me that one must buy stands of some kind. Now the question becomes "which ones?". Well, there's apple crates. Or stacked books (dangerous). Or suspend from the ceiling. Or.....well you get the point. We are limited on options and good stands make a lot of sense.

So the price decision is whether we buy cheap third party stands or the real deal. Does it make sense to install really good B&W's on really ugly, shaky, nasty stands that have poor fit, unreliable paint, sharp edges to cut your expensive cables and, perhaps, no way to secure the speakers? Well, that's your call. It doesn't make sense to me.

I know there are some good third party stands available and they are viable options. But, guess what? The good ones are also expensive. So the decision now comes down to expensive third party stands or expensive B&W's.

Given how well thought out B&W stands are, I personally feel that saving a little money (if that is actually the case) is not justified. One simply must factor the cost of the stands into the cost of the speakers. Let's see.....scratch, scratch,.... that makes the 805's plus stands go for $3100 per pair excluding discounts, right? Certainly that is not cheap but the result is really excellent. You get what you pay for. It's a Cosmic Law.

Why do we buy B&W? Because they are great. That's easy. They are also expensive. That's easy too. The two go together; great and expensive. The proper path seems obvious. Another easy one.

Oh, did I mention they look terrific too? :T

Sparky

Hey Sparky! I know, I know, they look great, and they will provide a good balance, and they taste good too... :B But they are still $1,200 on four of them, and it's just pressed metal.....

hehehe I got four really nice, very well-made, all-metal stands from my dealer, heavy as a ton of bricks (and I'll still fill them up with sand), with a nice wide top to support the speakers (the speakers were on this identical stand at the dealers'). I'll make sure nothing is scratched (green felt!), and no, it won't look "perfect", but I paid just $65.00 each (so that's just 20% of the price of the B&W stands!). And they will do the same thing, I'm pretty sure I won't be able to "hear" the difference, and they will look perfectly fine, but the most important thing, I'll still have more than $900.00 to put toward my upgradtitis medicine! :T

To be perfectly honest, I think B&W really mis-priced these stands. It's a bit ridiculous that the stand is 25% of the price of the speaker ($300/$1,250)... The British punters themselves would call this a rip-off... :lol:

[grit]

To be perfectly honest, I think B&W really mis-priced these stands. It's a bit ridiculous that the stand is 25% of the price of the speaker ($300/$1,250)... The British punters themselves would call this a rip-off... :lol:

Most people think the amount of money we spend on speakers is ridiculous. I've just come to accept that stands cost that much money, even if it is ridiculous. I just bought Sound Anchor stands for my front speakers... $500 for the pair. It's just a fact of the industry, but B&W is certainly not alone on cornering the market for expensive stands.

All that said, if you found a good, solid option for less money, congratulations, and go for it! And post us a picture!

[Karma]

HI East,
I agree with grit. Good for you. You will be facing many of these tradeoffs in the future. Choose wisely.

Sparky

[EastCoaster]

Most people think the amount of money we spend on speakers is ridiculous. I've just come to accept that stands cost that much money, even if it is ridiculous. I just bought Sound Anchor stands for my front speakers... $500 for the pair. It's just a fact of the industry, but B&W is certainly not alone on cornering the market for expensive stands.

All that said, if you found a good, solid option for less money, congratulations, and go for it! And post us a picture!

Thanks Grit - I will post a pic! I'm still waiting for my speakers to arrive, and it might take another week to ten days. I'm hoping it all works out just fine! And yes, all my friends think I'm crazy for getting my four 805S's, but hey, they sound better than anything they've got!

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
I agree with grit. Good for you. You will be facing many of these tradeoffs in the future. Choose wisely.

Sparky

Hi Sparky - thanks for this! If money was no object, I'd be wallpapering my living room with the lovely B&W stands, but something has to give... Besides, down the road I'll probably upgrade to floorstanders both front and back! <wishful thinking>