Dilemma! 4 X 805s or 2x 704s & 2x 705s ?

[EastCoaster]

Hi guys (and gals!),

I would appreciate your help in a tough (for me) choice! If you were to choose one of the following set-ups, which one would you choose? (this is for both music and movies, and some SACD/Audio DVDs, in a small-ish living room):

Front L&R - 704s
Back L&R - 705s
Center - HTM7
Sub - ASW600 (sorry, small-ish living room!)

Or

Front L&R - 805s
Back L&R - 805s
Center - HTM4S
Sub - ASW600

I kind of think I'm getting more of a presence with the 704s in front and want to save a bit of cash (about $2,000 difference in price between the set-ups). Am I just being silly? What do you think sounds better? What will hold its own against new music formats in the future? What will get a better trade-in value in a few years?

Any (really - any!) of your thoughts would be wildly appreciated!!!

[JKalman]

I would consider the first one if you can get the 703s instead of the 704s. I had a similar setup before I traded my surround system in for a pair of 802Ds and I loved how my 7 series surround system sounded for music and movies. My setup was 703s (fronts), 705s (surrounds), HTM7 (center), and ASW750. I would try to get the ASW700 instead of the ASW600, to match the sub with the rest of the system if at all possible. B&W makes a model 6 sub and a model 7 sub for a reason. Chances are you will get better integration with the same model speakers and subs since they are designed to pair. I did notice that the HTM7 and the 703s were not the best match, which is where I feel you will benefit the most by going with the 805s. I believe the HTM4 is an 805 on its side, but I'm too tired to go look ATM.

I havn't had the 805s in a surround system, but I can still offer some advice. If you get the second setup, all the channels would match up better than in the first setup, since everything would basically be 805s, so it might be the better choice overall. One consideration, though, is that most movies and musical material do not use the surround channels as intensely as the fronts, often only for background noise. This is so the listener is not distracted from the material being presented in front of them on the movie screen or at the center of the sound image. So matching up 100% may not be necessary, unless you plan on listening to a lot of multi-channel recordings that break free from this convention. Don't get me wrong though, matching the center channel with the front left and right speakers is extremely important. Of course, if you are watching movies and listening to music alone on this system, and your preamp/processor supports the function, you can just reroute the center channel to the front right and left speakers and save money by not getting a center channel speaker, which is that I am currently doing. Then you can always purchase a center later on when you can afford one. This is a good way to buy higher quality speakers without sacrificing multi-channel formats in the interim.

The cabinet size of the 805 speakers and its lower bass extension are likely causing the problems you are noticing. I'm sure you could find a used 8 series sub online somwhere, or perhaps your dealer can get one for you which, if set up right, should go a long way towards solving this problem. A 6 series sub with 8 series speakers seems pretty far from a match, IMO, so I would be cautious and vigilant in your testing. Try the lowest 8 series you can find or the ASW700 against the ASW600 for a little while before you spend the money. Definitely do some thorough listening comparisons between all your considerations. If it turns out you can't notice a difference, then get the ASW600, the same goes for any equipment you are considering.

I'm not sure which would hold better trade in value. Best way to figure that out is to search some fora that have auctioning features over an arbitrary period of time, like Audiogon.

[EastCoaster]

My setup was 703s (fronts), 705s (surrounds), HTM7 (center), and ASW750. I would try to get the ASW700 instead of the ASW600, to match the sub with the rest of the system if at all possible. B&W makes a model 6 sub and a model 7 sub for a reason.

If you get the second setup, all the channels would match up better than in the first setup, since everything would basically be 805s, so it might be the better choice overall.

I'm not sure which would hold better trade in value. Best way to figure that out is to search some fora that have auctioning features over an arbitrary period of time, like Audiogon.

Thanks for the great advice Jeff! I appreciate your time! I did consider the 703s, but tought they would just overwhelm my little living room, and then did consider how the HTM7 doesn't really match… I'm not sure the best set-up is with the 704s and the 705s, but I wanted to try and stay reasonable… Do you think there's not enough difference between the 704s and the 705s to mix them up? (i.e., am I almost better off doing all 705s in this 700 series set-up?).

I know what you mean about the sub - and again it was less a function of $$ but more a function of not wanting to overwhelm the small living room - would I ever need all the power of the ASW700? Will the better integration of the ASW700 really be that noticeable?

And you're absolutely right - I was thinking of the four 805s for multi-channel match-ups (not really for HT, even though I'd be using it 50% of the time for HT). I don't have a lot of SACD and Audio DVD content (and these formats may really be going nowhere), but who knows what new format is coming around the bend? Maybe it's worth it being better prepared for multi-channel music? I've even been told that in a 5.1 DTS format, you'd get better sound from four matched speakers, although I haven't tested this out at all… Has anyone?

And as long as we're on the 805s, is it still the case that the 805 has the same tweeter as it's more expensive brothers? (if you remember the last Nautilus 800 series, the Nautilus 805 was a $1,000 speaker that had the same tweeter as its much more expensive brothers and sisters - now that was a good value!). I tried to research whether the new 805s has the same tweeter as the 804s or the 803s, but can't find any info on this (it's driving me crazy!). Does anyone know?

By the way, what did you mean about the "cabinet size of the 805 speakers and its lower bass extension are likely causing the problems you are noticing"?

And I kind of hate to say this, and maybe others have an opinion on this, but I did check a bit, and I get the (first) impression that the 700 series aren't holding their value as well as the 800 series (as a percentage of retail)… Would you say that's a fair statement?

Thanks again! And please, if others have any feedback/suggestions - please chime in!

[BlazeMaster]

of course the 700s don't hold their value as well as the 800s. The 800s are their flagship line, with the highest demand for them in the used market. I own 704s and HTM7 up front and just using DM600s for surrounds and I think my system sounds pretty darn good. I'm kinda thinking about going your way by getting the 805S and HTM4S up front, decisions...decisions.

[grit]

For 50% HT, 50% music, I think you're over-extending yourself on the 800 series, but my opinions are gonna differ because I prefer 2 full range floor-standing speakers to bookshelf speakers and a sub for music. Everyone argues size, but by the time you buy stands for bookshelf speakers and consider the footprint of the stand, a floor standing speaker isn't a problem (usually).

I have the 703's, 705's (back), and HTM7. Don't do it. The front 3 speakers are NOT well matched and it draws attention.

That in mind, i don't really think the detail of HT is anywhere near as complex as music to reproduce accurately. I think most HT is synthesized in a sound studio. I'd guess that with the 'bang for your buck' idea in mind, you'd get more outta the 705's all the way around and the matching 700 series sub. Probably an easier load to drive too.

[JKalman]

Thanks for the great advice Jeff! I appreciate your time! I did consider the 703s, but tought they would just overwhelm my little living room, and then did consider how the HTM7 doesn't really match… I'm not sure the best set-up is with the 704s and the 705s, but I wanted to try and stay reasonable… Do you think there's not enough difference between the 704s and the 705s to mix them up? (i.e., am I almost better off doing all 705s in this 700 series set-up?).

I know what you mean about the sub - and again it was less a function of $$ but more a function of not wanting to overwhelm the small living room - would I ever need all the power of the ASW700? Will the better integration of the ASW700 really be that noticeable?

And you're absolutely right - I was thinking of the four 805s for multi-channel match-ups (not really for HT, even though I'd be using it 50% of the time for HT). I don't have a lot of SACD and Audio DVD content (and these formats may really be going nowhere), but who knows what new format is coming around the bend? Maybe it's worth it being better prepared for multi-channel music? I've even been told that in a 5.1 DTS format, you'd get better sound from four matched speakers, although I haven't tested this out at all… Has anyone?

And as long as we're on the 805s, is it still the case that the 805 has the same tweeter as it's more expensive brothers? (if you remember the last Nautilus 800 series, the Nautilus 805 was a $1,000 speaker that had the same tweeter as its much more expensive brothers and sisters - now that was a good value!). I tried to research whether the new 805s has the same tweeter as the 804s or the 803s, but can't find any info on this (it's driving me crazy!). Does anyone know?

By the way, what did you mean about the "cabinet size of the 805 speakers and its lower bass extension are likely causing the problems you are noticing"?

And I kind of hate to say this, and maybe others have an opinion on this, but I did check a bit, and I get the (first) impression that the 700 series aren't holding their value as well as the 800 series (as a percentage of retail)… Would you say that's a fair statement?

Thanks again! And please, if others have any feedback/suggestions - please chime in!

I think if you want to set up your system like the professionals do, then you should go with all 805s. Professional studios, including THX studios, use all the same speakers, even the center channel is a free standing 802 in the case of Lucas Ranch. Since the HTM4 is an 805 on the side (best to double check on the B&W website to see if I am correct about it being an 805) it should work fine.

My only concern with the sub is that they are designed to integrate with the series of speaker with whom they share a name, i.e. they are designed to integrate with the character traits of that speaker line for which they are numbered, e.g. ASW7** integrates with the 7** series speakers. So it would behoove you to test thoroughly from the ASW6** subs all the way to the ASW8** subs to see if you notice any inconsistencies before deciding to buy the cheapest speaker based on wpc, rather than on integration.

Size and Sound Power Level are two different considerations. If size is an issue, that is one thing (you only have so much space in a room), but if you are concerned with how loud you can turn it up, and with wasting potential watts by never using it to its full potential, I personally feel it is better to waste the power and have a sub that integrates excellently with the rest of your equipment even if you never use even half of the subs power, much like the full wpc the 8 series speakers can handle via a recommended amp will never be used -- this increased overhead, which is characteristic of both the sub and the regular speakers may actually help the pieces pair well. It is this kind of overhead which is part of what will influence the equivalency in sound.

You might find this is not as much of an issue for you when you test the different subs. I'm hopefully giving you reasons why you should do thorough testing and also I hope I am giving you ideas on what to look for when testing so that you are completely satisfied with your decision for years to come.

The 805 has the same tweeters as the older of the large 800 series speakers, and the same as the 803S and 804S speakers. It does not have Diamond tweeters like the newer of the high end 8 series speakers as those tweeters cause a significant price increase.

The small cabinet size and lack of significant bass drivers in the 805 are likely causing the problems you are having with a lack of presence, but integration with a well matched subwoofer should eliminate this problem. I really feel you should go with an ASW800 if you can find one, or at least an ASW700 to match the 805 speakers, but test it out for yourself - I keep going back to the idea in my head that the ASW8** subs were designed specifically for the 8 series speakers. I'm guessing you will find the ASW600 to be fairly murky in comparison, and likewise the ASW7**s to be murky when compared with the ASW8**s, especially if you play programme which hangs around the crossover point and goes back and forth a bit. You might want to listen and directly compare them for long enough to see if you hear what I am talking about. I believe the better integration of the 8 series speakers with the 8 series sub is the kind of seamlessness that will make an 805 surround setup seem like full cabinets, but that is something you should attempt to perceive yourself via demos.

If I were you I would go with the 805s all around, and perhaps the HTM4S for a center, like you were originally considering. I would just be meticulous in testing the subs before buying one that might be an inferior match for the rest of your setup. When you go with a subwoofer in a specific series, like an 8 series, you are getting more watts usually, but what you are really trying to accomplish is finding the sub which was designed to work the best with those speakers, i.e. a sub which shares many of the characteristics of that speaker line so it blends in as seamlessly as possible.

[JKalman]

I also prefer foorstanders for stereo sound in the front. I'm presently using 802Ds in the front, and I am waiting for the 805Ds to release for my surroud speakers. I don't currently have any subs since the bass extension on my 802Ds allow me to forgo that in place of other equipment that I find more necessary at the moment.

I also do not have a center channel at the moment and probably won't for awhile since my preamp/processor can route the center channel to the front left and right speakers, which to me has no influence on the quality of the sound but does lower the over all dB level a little bit. I also don't have any off axis viewers, my wife and kids watch TV in the family room and I currently use my system, in my office, for personal entertainment. That being said, a center channel hasn't been necessary.

I do miss having a subwoofer, but first things first, a 60" TV to replace my 36" tube is next, then those 805D surround speakers when B&W announces them. Then I will have a hard time deciding whether to buy a great source like the Ayre C-5xe or two subs. Considering the recent anouncements concerning 1080p output on the PS3 and BlueRay, I am more likely to get the 805Ds right away and wait for the Sony SXRDs to come with 1080p inputs.

One thing to keep in mind, along the lines of what grit mentioned above, is that a great sounding music system guarantees a great sounding HT system, while a great sounding HT system does not guarantee a great sounding music system. I do feel the 805 speakers sound much better than the 705 speakers, and that you can't go wrong with the 805s in comparison to the 705s. After all, if price is not an issue, spoil yourself a little, buy the better speaker, it will make a difference musically. The 805s have won awards for their sound quality, which are listed on the B&W website.

If you are considering getting freestanding speakers, all the power to you, but I do think an 8 series sub with the 805s all around can compensate for floorstanders, just keep in mind that you will always need to use the preamp/processor to set a crossover for the sub so you get the full sound, i.e. - bypass modes will lack in bass.

You can also get better bang for your buck if you get 600 series speakers, it really just depends on where you want to draw the line, rather, at what point you find the trade off in price to not be worth the increase in sound quality. If you can afford to do the 805s, I wouldn't move down to the 705s, at least if you are like me that is, you'll just regret not having bought them later on down the road (lol, which is exactly why I traded in my 7 series surround setup for the 802Ds - I haven't regretted that trade in for even a single pico second). I'm obviously not the best gauge in the world for finding a crossover point between price increase and sound gain since I was willing to buy the 802Ds. Though I would hardly consider the 805s close in price to the 802Ds.

Just remember, you can't go wrong by demoing all the recommended setups. Give your dealer a call and make a few trips over the course of a month so you can compare them all.

[misterdoggy]

I've owned the setup with 704's, 703's and 705's htm7 and have also had the 805's htm3S and htm2D

I would agree with some others here that if you go the 805s route then you will need some help in the bass and you just might find it with an ASW800 at a minimum.

I would personally go with matching 805's all around. Now if it was a choice between 703S I might have to think longer because they were great speakers, a lot more "dynamic" and more "ambience" than the 704s'.

The 805 series is a step up and they are great speakers. I'm not a great fan of the htm7 and the only thing that might be better is the older htm1 as the center speaker because I feel the center speaker is too important to HT. Or another 805s as the center.

8's are 8's and 7's are 7's. The choice between a 703 and an 805 is a very close call though.

[JKalman]

8's are 8's and 7's are 7's. The choice between a 703 and an 805 is a very close call though.

I actually preferred the character of the 703 over the 804 when I A/B tested them. The 805s sounded better than the 705s to me though. I only noticed a large difference between the regular speakers and the diamond speakers, the diamond speakers blew everything else away, but at quite the change in the price point. Grit has a good point concerning floorstanders vs. bookshelf speakers with stands. Like almost all of us has mentioned, the HTM7 does not integrate well with anything in the 7 series that I am aware of, though, I never placed my 705s anywhere but on the surround channels so it may integrate well with the 705s in the front. You could always have a custom stand built and lay a 703 on its side for a center channel. That solution might actually be ideal sound wise, though probably not aesthetically pleasing.

[EastCoaster]

Danke!

of course the 700s don't hold their value as well as the 800s. The 800s are their flagship line, with the highest demand for them in the used market. I own 704s and HTM7 up front and just using DM600s for surrounds and I think my system sounds pretty darn good. I'm kinda thinking about going your way by getting the 805S and HTM4S up front, decisions...decisions.

Thanks Grit, your set-up sounds nice, but I've been hearing that the HTM7 is not the match for the 704s - can you hear the diff? By the way, I priced the "recommended" 805s set-up (called "set up of the year above 2,500 British Pounds by a UK trade mag), and the Street Cost will be at least $8,000 (without the B&W stands). This is for 4x805s, one HTM4s, and one ASW825. Wow. Wow. Wow. (for bookshelf speakers!).

[EastCoaster]

For 50% HT, 50% music, I think you're over-extending yourself on the 800 series, but my opinions are gonna differ because I prefer 2 full range floor-standing speakers to bookshelf speakers and a sub for music. Everyone argues size, but by the time you buy stands for bookshelf speakers and consider the footprint of the stand, a floor standing speaker isn't a problem (usually).

I have the 703's, 705's (back), and HTM7. Don't do it. The front 3 speakers are NOT well matched and it draws attention.

That in mind, i don't really think the detail of HT is anywhere near as complex as music to reproduce accurately. I think most HT is synthesized in a sound studio. I'd guess that with the 'bang for your buck' idea in mind, you'd get more outta the 705's all the way around and the matching 700 series sub. Probably an easier load to drive too.

Thanks very much Grit - I certainly am feeling "over-extended" when I'm looking at the price tags, but I guess I'm more concerned about finding the "perfect" solution (a bad character trait of mine). I see you're saying that the 703s doesn't match the HTM7 (I made a mistake when responding to Blazemaster's message). What does it sound like? (other than "not as good as it could have sounded..."). I sort of am sold on getting the 703s for front L&R if I'm to stick with the 700 series - I really found them to have a larger soundstage and more presence (not necessarily "oomph"). They just sounded wider and bigger, even when they were toed directly to me. I was thinking they would be even WIDER if I toed them out! :lol:

[EastCoaster]

I think if you want to set up your system like the professionals do, then you should go with all 805s.

My only concern with the sub is that they are designed to integrate with the series of speaker with whom they share a name, i.e. they are designed to integrate with the character traits of that speaker line for which they are numbered, e.g. ASW7** integrates with the 7** series speakers.

The 805 has the same tweeters as the older of the large 800 series speakers, and the same as the 803S and 804S speakers. It does not have Diamond tweeters like the newer of the high end 8 series speakers as those tweeters cause a significant price increase.

I keep going back to the idea in my head that the ASW8** subs were designed specifically for the 8 series speakers.

If I were you I would go with the 805s all around, and perhaps the HTM4S for a center, like you were originally considering.

Thanks again for your responses - these are great, and very helpful to me! I know what you mean - I do, but I'm not only looking at the speaker, but also the incremental sound enhancement versus the incremental cost. Going from that 700 series to the 800 series (as intended) will double the price. That's a lot of money for me, and yet I would be willing to do it if I could hear a similarly appreciable difference (i.e., the 800s would sound doubly good, or a quarter-better). I did of course hear a difference between the 705 and the 805, and I can say that the 805 sparkled more, and had a wider range and presence, but is that worth double the cost? I'm not sure (it sounded about 5% better, or 10% better, but not 100% better).

I take your suggestion about the sub very seriously. I think I may have to go for the AS700 sub if I go with the series 700's. Going with the AS825... Hmmm... Not sure!

[EastCoaster]

I actually preferred the character of the 703 over the 804 when I A/B tested them. The 805s sounded better than the 705s to me though. I only noticed a large difference between the regular speakers and the diamond speakers, the diamond speakers blew everything else away, but at quite the change in the price point. Grit has a good point concerning floorstanders vs. bookshelf speakers with stands. Like almost all of us has mentioned, the HTM7 does not integrate well with anything in the 7 series that I am aware of, though, I never placed my 705s anywhere but on the surround channels so it may integrate well with the 705s in the front. You could always have a custom stand built and lay a 703 on its side for a center channel. That solution might actually be ideal sound wise, though probably not aesthetically pleasing.

Wow - that's a thought! A 703 on its side! that would have to be some custom cabinet! As I mentioned, I agree that the 805s sound a bit better, but it's a "bit". What was playing through my mind (of course) was: "do these babies sound $1,500 better", and I have to be honest, they didn't... Just my ear I guess!

But I thought people said that the HTM7 does integrate well with the 704s - is that not the case?

Thanks again for your time and patient responses!

[EastCoaster]

I've owned the setup with 704's, 703's and 705's htm7 and have also had the 805's htm3S and htm2D

I would agree with some others here that if you go the 805s route then you will need some help in the bass and you just might find it with an ASW800 at a minimum.

I would personally go with matching 805's all around. Now if it was a choice between 703S I might have to think longer because they were great speakers, a lot more "dynamic" and more "ambience" than the 704s'.

The 805 series is a step up and they are great speakers. I'm not a great fan of the htm7 and the only thing that might be better is the older htm1 as the center speaker because I feel the center speaker is too important to HT. Or another 805s as the center.

8's are 8's and 7's are 7's. The choice between a 703 and an 805 is a very close call though.

Thanks Misterdoggy - you and others are mostly all agreeing that the 805s are the better way to go... I'm going to have to go in and do another session with them, maybe with a couple of other types of songs. I'll play some vocals this time around. If I end up getting the 805s, how do you think they'll work with the ASW700?

[EastCoaster]

If you are considering getting freestanding speakers, all the power to you, but I do think an 8 series sub with the 805s all around can compensate for floorstanders, just keep in mind that you will always need to use the preamp/processor to set a crossover for the sub so you get the full sound, i.e. - bypass modes will lack in bass.

Sorry for being such a neophyte - but will I not be able to use my Yamaha RXV2600 receiver to properly drive the 805s and ASW825?

Also, will it be a sin to get the ASW700 instead of the 825? (I mean, wow, it's a $2,500 sub!)

[JKalman]

Sorry for being such a neophyte - but will I not be able to use my Yamaha RXV2600 receiver to properly drive the 805s and ASW825?

Also, will it be a sin to get the ASW700 instead of the 825? (I mean, wow, it's a $2,500 sub!)

I would set up an appointment with your dealer and hook the amp up to the speakers you are interested in, usually dealers have a switch box you can use to test a few speakers at once.

I personally don't buy into a lot of the hype in the market concerning high end components. I do believe in quality components, dedicated circuit paths, great customer service, etc. For me spending the money I spent on Brystons was worth it because of their design philosophy, their transferable 20 year warranty and their upgrade philosophy. I don't, however, believe in magic. That being said, you will only know by testing them out with your equipment. It shouldn't be too hard to A/B the 805s and then the 705s on it, and that will help you more than anything else. Certainly it has enough WPC to drive them.

As far as the sub goes, demo them, all that really matters is if you enjoy and/or can live with the sound. I'm a brat when it comes to pairing speaker lines. How much this is warranted, considering you are dealing with the 805s and not the higher end 8 series speakers, I'm not sure. It could be that the ASW8** subs are designed more for the higher end gear. The best way to figure out how it sounds is to demo them. No need to be shy with your dealer. You are after all about to throw down some serious money in their store. You won't have to worry about the Yamaha driving the sub, subs drive themselves.

[JKalman]

One thing you need to consider about speakers, and some other audio equipment (generally for companies that are not con-artists, because there are some con-artists out there), is that as the price of equipment rises exponentially you will only see a logarithmic return in quality. Generally you will see a diminishing return in quality as the price tag rises. Thus is the cost of being an early adopter of cutting edge R&D. The question is, at what point along that slope do you feel comfortable?

[EastCoaster]

I would set up an appointment with your dealer and hook the amp up to the speakers you are interested in, usually dealers have a switch box you can use to test a few speakers at once.

I personally don't buy into a lot of the hype in the market concerning high end components. I do believe in quality components, dedicated circuit paths, great customer service, etc. For me spending the money I spent on Brystons was worth it because of their design philosophy, their transferable 20 year warranty and their upgrade philosophy. I don't, however, believe in magic. That being said, you will only know by testing them out with your equipment. It shouldn't be too hard to A/B the 805s and then the 705s on it, and that will help you more than anything else. Certainly it has enough WPC to drive them.

Hi Jeff - definitely! The appointment has been set. I'm going to test the 704s versus the 805s, and then the 805s against the 705s. I'm more worried about the first test, which is one that I didn't really do. I already did the 805 v. 705, and I think that the 805s are only marginally better than the 705s (in my mind, I call it "10% better"). Will I plunk down the cash for the 805's then? Hmmm.... I'm trying to be practical, but also think about buy-back value. I keep speakers/televisions for about 2-4 years. I keep electronics about 5 years. I think I'll be able to get back 50-60% of my investment from the 805s in 2-4 years (on Ebay - my stuff is always pristine), but probably not as much on the 705's (not sure about the 704s). And then of course there's the "good feeling" one gets when one knows one owns the "good stuff".... :P

What I didn't understand was when you said: "always need to use the preamp/processor to set a crossover for the sub so you get the full sound". I have to admit (I'm feeling stupid here) that I don't understand how one sets the crossover!

[EastCoaster]

as the price of equipment rises exponentially you will only see a logarithmic return in quality. Generally you will see a diminishing return in quality as the price tag rises. Thus is the cost of being an early adopter of cutting edge R&D. The question is, at what point along that slope do you feel comfortable?

That's a good question! I'm not a wealthy person, but when I get it into my mind to do something, I follow-through on it and try to do the best I can, even if it sometimes means going above-board. I pinched my pennies for a long time to be able to afford this, so the overriding factor in that "slope" is to try and get the very best I can - and that means the stuff I think sounds the best, at the best value.

Probably like yourself and a lot of the people on this forum, I won't just get the 805s because they are from the 800 series, I'll get them because I'll think they sound better enough to justify the extra cost, and that at the end of the day, they will keep enough value in them to allow me to move forward and get the next set of speakers.

Like you said in one of your earlier posts - I don't want to catch myself a year from now realizing I made a mistake... That's why I'm asking lots of questions. I'm getting good advice from friends and family, and supplementing that with your advice - you and the other people in this forum know a whole lot more than I do!

[grit]

Hi Jeff - definitely! The appointment has been set. I'm going to test the 704s versus the 805s, and then the 805s against the 705s. I'm more worried about the first test, which is one that I didn't really do. I already did the 805 v. 705, and I think that the 805s are only marginally better than the 705s (in my mind, I call it "10% better"). Will I plunk down the cash for the 805's then? Hmmm.... I'm trying to be practical, but also think about buy-back value. I keep speakers/televisions for about 2-4 years. I keep electronics about 5 years. I think I'll be able to get back 50-60% of my investment from the 805s in 2-4 years (on Ebay - my stuff is always pristine), but probably not as much on the 705's (not sure about the 704s). And then of course there's the "good feeling" one gets when one knows one owns the "good stuff".... :P

What I didn't understand was when you said: "always need to use the preamp/processor to set a crossover for the sub so you get the full sound". I have to admit (I'm feeling stupid here) that I don't understand how one sets the crossover!

If you're only getting a 10% increase in your enjoyment from the 805s vs the 705s, I'd stick with the 700 series. You'll save money on the speakers, the electronics, etc. Quite the price hike for only 10% increase.

The tweeter/mids in the 705, htm7, and 704 all match well. The 703s are almost a hybrid 804/704. They got confused on that one there. If the 703's did not exist, i never would have gotten the 700 series (but thats for music, not movies).

Movie setups are more forgiving than music. However, if you do not sit down, close your eyes, and *listen* to music, aim for an HT system. You'll love the music that comes out of it. OTOH, if you like to sit and enjoy your music AND you watch HT too, aim for good 2-ch and the HT will follow.

[misterdoggy]

Thanks Misterdoggy - you and others are mostly all agreeing that the 805s are the better way to go... I'm going to have to go in and do another session with them, maybe with a couple of other types of songs. I'll play some vocals this time around. If I end up getting the 805s, how do you think they'll work with the ASW700?

Don't do it....... You will regret this purchase. The ASW700 is not the "level" of your 805's. You "need" the help in the Bass area and a good sub will be more important in your setup than a setup with floor standers. You will need at the very least ASW800 and if you can do 825 or 850 even better.

note:I am sure at some later date when you want to upgrade your L&R speakers it could be another of the 800 series and you should keep everything in the 800's or the first thing to go would be you ASW700 !!

[JKalman]

What I didn't understand was when you said: "always need to use the preamp/processor to set a crossover for the sub so you get the full sound". I have to admit (I'm feeling stupid here) that I don't understand how one sets the crossover!

No need to feel stupid, if we were born knowing everything life would be awfully boring. A crossover is set in a preamp/processor and it is used to set a point in the music signal where the music is sent to different equipment, i.e. at the splitting point the lower portion of the signal is sent to the subwoofer and the higher frequency portion is sent to the regular speakers. Usually a prepro allows you to pick from a bunch of options 30-120Hz more or less and whichever one you pick is where it splits the signal to send the lower frequencies to the sub and the higher frequencies to the other speakers in your system. It is programmed into the prepro (preamp/processor) and you simply have to choose where you want the cut off point to be.

[JKalman]

I think what others have said about resale value and the 800 series is correct. If you can spend the money, I would go with the 805s and the ASW825, it will really make a world of difference when you listen to good music recordings. As time goes on your hearing will become more focused, especially now that you are developing your listening skills by investing in good equipment. The 805s and the ASW8** will also allow you to upgrade your amp and preamp/processor down the road and bring out even more in the quality of the speakers.

The 805s won a gold choice award from Hi-Fi Choice (both speakers, BTW, have won numerous awards), to me that particular award says a lot though. Hi-Fi Choice is one of the only magazines that gives numerical/percentage ratings on aspects of the speaker or other equipment, and as such is one of the only magazines that actually rates the items they review. Most magazines give a verbal review which basically gives you little or no frame of reference for comparison between products. So the Gold Choice award actually means something quantitatively. IMO, it is one of the few magazines you can trust because it is willing to take the risk of lost advertising, etc, by rating the speaker, and their ratngs of products isn't always good. I personally can't stand most magazines because they give a huge amount of material to read as a review, but in the end give no real measure by which to gauge it to anything else. A lot of wine and cheese-ing, but no meat.

[EastCoaster]

I'm a brat when it comes to pairing speaker lines. How much this is warranted, considering you are dealing with the 805s and not the higher end 8 series speakers, I'm not sure. It could be that the ASW8** subs are designed more for the higher end gear.

Again, that sounds like very reasonable advice. While I appreciate the purists that say that a particular sub must be matched with a particular speaker line, I'm not sure that's worth an extra $1,200 (or more) in the case of an ASW700 up to the 800s sub! Unless I can hear something pretty distinct in terms of difference, I'd rather take that money and put it into the speaker upgrade!

[EastCoaster]

No need to feel stupid, if we were born knowing everything life would be awfully boring. A crossover is set in a preamp/processor and it is used to set a point in the music signal where the music is sent to different equipment, i.e. at the splitting point the lower portion of the signal is sent to the subwoofer and the higher frequency portion is sent to the regular speakers. Usually a prepro allows you to pick from a bunch of options 30-120Hz more or less and whichever one you pick is where it splits the signal to send the lower frequencies to the sub and the higher frequencies to the other speakers in your system. It is programmed into the prepro (preamp/processor) and you simply have to choose where you want the cut off point to be.

Okay - this is a great description, and I now understand! Thanks for being so patient and helpful! I guess my question is will my Yamaha RXV2600 perform this function? (either manually or automatically). It's an AV Receiver (a new one, and supposedly good one, but....)

[EastCoaster]

The 805s won a gold choice award from Hi-Fi Choice (both speakers, BTW, have won numerous awards), to me that particular award says a lot though. Hi-Fi Choice is one of the only magazines that gives numerical/percentage ratings on aspects of the speaker or other equipment, and as such is one of the only magazines that actually rates the items they review.

I did see that review and wondered at the percentage ratings! It was pretty superb, you're right! I do often wonder about how the trade mags balance having to make a living off of the manufacturers, and yet rating their products. I guess one just sort of "reads between the lines" in most reviews - if they aren't "GLOWING", the speaker may be just average. I haven't yet seen a review where a speaker was described as an "over priced dog!"

[EastCoaster]

The 703s are almost a hybrid 804/704. They got confused on that one there. If the 703's did not exist, i never would have gotten the 700 series (but thats for music, not movies).

Thanks Grit! I guess that begs the question of whether the 703s are in that "sweetspot" where you are getting something way above what you would typically get in a series? A bit like the older Nautilus 805, which cost $2,000 a pair, and yet had the same tweeter that was on speakers five times more expensive! (funny how B&W moved to "diamonds", and perhaps next will "diamond" the new 805s - that will make the 805s drop immediately in desireability - No?)

[EastCoaster]

note:I am sure at some later date when you want to upgrade your L&R speakers it could be another of the 800 series and you should keep everything in the 800's or the first thing to go would be you ASW700 !!

That's no joke... I started looking at the 600s, liked them a lot, and then did a double take when I saw the 700s, decided I loved them, and now I'm winking at the 800s..... All this happened very quickly....

[JKalman]

Okay - this is a great description, and I now understand! Thanks for being so patient and helpful! I guess my question is will my Yamaha RXV2600 perform this function? (either manually or automatically). It's an AV Receiver (a new one, and supposedly good one, but....)

Every new AV receiver, especially Yamaha, performs these kinds of functions.

[JKalman]

(funny how B&W moved to "diamonds", and perhaps next will "diamond" the new 805s - that will make the 805s drop immediately in desireability - No?)

I don't think so, the previous non-diamond 800-803 speakers are still highly desirable, just look at people's purchases on this forum.

[EastCoaster]

I don't think so, the previous non-diamond 800-803 speakers are still highly desirable, just look at people's purchases on this forum.

Excellent - I like that! Thanks again very much!

[JKalman]

That's no joke... I started looking at the 600s, liked them a lot, and then did a double take when I saw the 700s, decided I loved them, and now I'm winking at the 800s..... All this happened very quickly....

I think you should stick with whatever line you decide to buy in, even the sub, but you already know that.

As far as the 703s go, I think I already mentioned that my previous setup, before the dealer was kind enough to let me trade them back in after two months, was 703s in the front, 705s in the rear, an HTM7 and an ASW750. I definitely thought the 703s sounded great. One way to look at it though is like misterdoggy said, if you buy all 8 series, you won't get screwed when you decide to upgrade. Even when diamond speakers eventually come down in price in a few years, you can upgrade the fronts and not worry about the rest of the system being too far out of synch. It will make it easier to upgrade the quality of your system over time or to stay current with the higher end speaker gear.

I am not affiliated with B&W and I gain nothing from anyone buying them, I just know what I went through in order to end up with my 8 series speakers, and i know how happy I am with them compared to my previous 7 series setup, and I currently only have 2 channel because of the change. Of course if you find a good dealer like I did, you might be able to trade them in at cost and change your mind after a month or two and get the better speakers still, but why take the risk, I wouldn't take that risk again myself, and I lost my 12% discount in order to make that trade-in happen. :cry: Also, if you go all 8 series, when you eventually save up to upgrade again, you can upgrade to a better integrated AV reciever/amp and won't have to worry about the sub, not that you can't just keep a 7 series sub and do that anyway. Perhaps you can talk the dealer into letting you take home an 7 and 8 series sub to A/B test for a week before you finalize that purchase.

Ultimately, you have to do what will make you happy, not what makes anyone on this forum happy. It is our responsibility to make you aware of other considerations to keep in mind. I'm sure you will be happy with whatever you decide to do. :T

[JKalman]

BTW, I never dreamed I would have spent what I did on my front speakers until I listened to the 802Ds after already owning the 703s. I also listened to the 800Ds and while they were better than the 802Ds, I couldn't justify the expense for the incremental change in sound quality. That doesn't mean I don't love them or that I don't want them still.

[JKalman]

Perhaps five years down the road I will sell my 805Ds, move my 802Ds to the back and buy some used 800Ds...

[JKalman]

Excellent - I like that! Thanks again very much!

Also, I have noticed that there is a whole community of people who wait for a new B&W series to come out so they can buy from the last series of speakers used. B&W is a very popular speaker company.

[JKalman]

Oh, if you don't buy the 805s and an ASW8** subwoofer I will be forced to sacrifice a small innocent animal in my backyard. :M

LOL, J/K. :rofl:

About buying the 805s and ASW8** that is... Mwhahahahaha!!! Mwhahahahahahaha!!!!!! Mwhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

[EastCoaster]

Perhaps five years down the road I will sell my 805Ds, move my 802Ds to the back and buy some used 800Ds...

Hmmm... Okay Jeff - here's a question. Having pondered and listened and read and agonized, I'm definitely moving in the direction of spending the extra $$ and going into the 800s. Now, as you probably remember, my original 800 set-up was going to be 805s (x 4) + HTM4S + 600/700 sub (although now I'm thinking more ASW825).

The issues are:

(1) I'm thinking 805s x 4 because I'm looking ahead to multi-channel music (SACD or whatever the music Gods will bring us), and thinking that when I listen to DTS, I'll also get more out of it this way. Would that be the right choice?

(2) I should be thinking of getting perhaps the 804s x 2 in front (ouch - more $$, now we're almost at $10,000). Would that be an even better choice than No. 1, above, given my desire for great multi-channel music, or would that throw everything off because all of a sudden the back and front L&F aren't identical? (and BTW I remember somewhere in the previous posts someone said the 704s is very similar to the 804s - that would upset me a bit I think... )

(3) And if I'm still looking over my shoulder at the 700s and trying to pinch my pennies, I could "cheat" a bit and get the ASW700 or 750. But I understand from virtually everyone this would be a mistake. So this one I can probably answer myself - this would not be a better choice apparently...

*******************

PS - Now I understand why in my last set of (inexpesive) HT speakers, I was driving myself nuts, in turns increasing the volume level on the backs, then the fronts, fiddling with the center (never feeling it quite gave me the clear vocals I needed for HT), and occasionally spilling drinks on the floor from rushing to the sub to turn it down/up... :evil:

[EastCoaster]

Oh, if you don't buy the 805s and an ASW8** subwoofer I will be forced to sacrifice a small innocent animal in my backyard.

I may just have to buy an ASW700 just to see that pagan ritual!!! :B

(besides, my dealer offers a full purchase price refund - I could just get them for a week, watch the sacrifice, then return them for the ASW8**! 8)

[grit]

I just have to throw this back in again. I wholeheartedly agree with everyones comments regarding upgrading and starting out with 805's. Just 2 things to consider -

1 - The first time I was introduced to 800 series speakers, my dealer said, "You GOTTA listen to these. They'll MAKE you sit down to listen to music." He was right. Someone already said this - you're "skill" at listening to music will increase with the quality of equipment we discuss on this forum. As it does, your taste MIGHT change. In *MY* case, I'm considering an upgrade from my 703's, but B&W isn't the only speaker I'm considering. I've also learned TONS about small details on how this stuff works... analog bypass vs digital, sub integration with 2-ch music vs movies, etc. For *me*, I'm glad I didn't buy more expensive equipment. I've learned so much and changed in my tastes that I'm glad I have an opportunity to upgrade and take those changes into account without having made a large (for me) investment.

2 - If *you* only hear a small improvement in the 805's compared to the 705's, is it worth it (for you) to spend 2x or more on that difference? You'll have to balance that against money lost if you upgrade vs changes you'd want to make, etc.

If I could do it all over again, I'd have bought the best front floorstanding speakers and amp I could afford, and a stereo preamp, and added a center, rears, and a processor later. But a year ago, I thought I'd listen to music just as background noise. Now I make it a point to have a glass of wine and listen to music once a night if I can (always with my eyes closed... amazing what that does).

I'm not trying to change your mind, just wanna make sure you examine every angle to make the best decission for you. And that's what makes us all
different Good luck, and do keep us informed.

[JKalman]

Hmmm... Okay Jeff - here's a question. Having pondered and listened and read and agonized, I'm definitely moving in the direction of spending the extra $$ and going into the 800s. Now, as you probably remember, my original 800 set-up was going to be 805s (x 4) + HTM4S + 600/700 sub (although now I'm thinking more ASW825).

The issues are:

(1) I'm thinking 805s x 4 because I'm looking ahead to multi-channel music (SACD or whatever the music Gods will bring us), and thinking that when I listen to DTS, I'll also get more out of it this way. Would that be the right choice?

I don't know if there is a right choice. I do know that studios, both movie and music types, use 5 of the same speakers for surround. For subs they probably use two. Two subs gives them low bass in stereo. You will hear soundtracks and music recordings the way they are engineered if you have all 805s. For this reason I think you should check with your dealer, or simply compare the specifications of the 805s and the HTM4 to see if it is indeed an 805 on its side.

I personally am not going to end up with the same size speakers when I am finished. One, stereo music is more important to me than multichannel music and movies. Two, my stereo speakers were more than 12k for the pair and considering my interests are probably around 80/20, music to movies, it wouldn't make sense to spend another 18K to 20k+. Three, because the surround speakers will be behind my couch, the lower portion driven out of my speakers won't reach me completely anyway since I won't be suspending them above my couch, on a wall, or anything else more exotic. Four, and finally, like I mentioned in an earlier post, a greater percentage of music and movies use surround speakers for background sound or room acoustics since the viewer/listener is positioned facing forward, which prevents the viewer/listener from being distracted from the central movie picture on the screen and/or the central spectral image created by the audio. Since this is the case, I believe you can use smaller speakers for the surrounds and not lose too much of the experience. There are those rare recordings, which might become less rare over time as engineers become more daring, where they use all five channels fully, e.g. - Bela Fleck's Blue Grass Sessions Volume 2 on DVD-Audio. I personally find these recordings annoying despite how much I love Bela Fleck's music.

(2) I should be thinking of getting perhaps the 804s x 2 in front (ouch - more $$, now we're almost at $10,000). Would that be an even better choice than No. 1, above, given my desire for great multi-channel music, or would that throw everything off because all of a sudden the back and front L&F aren't identical? (and BTW I remember somewhere in the previous posts someone said the 704s is very similar to the 804s - that would upset me a bit I think... )

It wouldn't throw things off I think. Perhaps you wouldn't have the same exact speaker balance that the engineers used when making the soundtrack or album (when it is multi-channel), and perhaps you could even notice it sounds different, but that doesn't make it bad or even less pleasing. It might effect the imaging of very small locational entities travelling from back to front in the sound field, such as bullets or the sound ball on the Avia test DVD. Since your dealer has a very generous policy, you can test this out for yourself and exchange them for all 805s if you find it is an issue. E.G. - I believe I was having this problem between my 703s and my 705s with bullets travelling from front to back on Black Hawk Down and I'll likely have the problem between the 802Ds and the 805Ds when I buy the 805Ds. BTW, this could also simply be a problem related to using floor mounts for the 705s instead of suspending them a certain height above my head as specified by Dolby and THX standards.

As far as the 804s are concerned. I originally compared those with the 703s and at the time I liked the 703s better. I only tested them for around 10 minutes and I only listened to one music CD, the Ray Charles and Friends one. At that time I liked the sound of the 703s better than the 804s, but thinking back on it now, I didn't listen to enough material, the material I listened to was not my album, and the album was not even material I was familiar with. The funny thing is, after making my initial speaker purchase I started spending a lot more time listening to speakers and components than I did before that, which is why I ended up months later with the 802Ds. Something to keep in mind, the 703 gives you more drivers than the 805, while the 805 has newer technology, this is why the 703 costs more than the 805, it will give you a fuller sound without a sub.

I never went back to review my initial comparison between the 703 and the 804. So I can't be certain I would feel the same way now. The 703 did sound great, though a little murky during moments of heavy bass, which I discovered after bringing them home and using them for awhile. I wouldn't base your decision on what I said earlier, because I didn't audition them as completely as I should have. Also, what you hear and enjoy, and what I hear and enjoy might not be the same.

If you will be listening to a lot of stereo sources, I definitely recommend you buy floorstanding speakers, because they will allow you to use bypass modes (to bypass processing modes in mid to high quality preamp/processors or integrated recievers). Basically this allows you to listen to your source equipment directly without the preamp/processor processing the signal in any way (which means you don't use a sub at all, just the front right and left stereo speakers). [ADDED]This is a great thing when you spend a nice sum of money on your source equipment, e.g. SACD, DVD-A, CD, Turntable, etc, because it allows you to hear that equipment without any alteration of its original stereo output.[/ADDED] This would also mean you are prepared to upgrade to a better integrated AV receiver down the road which offers bypass modes, unless of course your Yamaha does offer that, which it might. Otherwise you are going to be dependent on your preamp/processor to always take the digital or analog signal and split it at the crossover point you have programmed into the receiver so it can send the correct frequencies to the sub and the speakers.

The 703s are excellent speakers IMO and you would probably get more out of four of those than four of the 805s. Unfortunately that HTM7 sort of stinks for use with the 703s, they just don't match up well at all. I discovered this when using the Avia test tracks and was a little pissed off. I believe, looking back on it now, that the 703s might have been a little harsher sounding than the 804s which seemed warmer. Of course, if you can do the 803S for your stereo speakers with 805s in the back, that would be a phenomenal system, worthy of bragging about and yet price conscious at the same time.

I'm not a good example unfortunately, I chose to have no surround speakers for awhile, and no center channel or subs for more than a year, maybe even longer than that, to get superb stereo sound. I'm completely happy with my decision. I literally sit for hours and listen to music with my eyes closed, and when I'm not doing that, I'm listening to music and typing/reading on the computer. If you keep asking me I'll eventually have you buying Diamonds. :W You have to ask yourself, is having mesmerizing sound for stereo worth forgoing surround speakers for the time being? For me the answer was a resounding, yes, after listening to the 802Ds... but don't get caught up in the excitement of buying anything yet, definitely do all the auditioning. I would definitely audition the 803S, 804S and the 805. I'm sure you will see a large difference between the 803S and the 805.

(3) And if I'm still looking over my shoulder at the 700s and trying to pinch my pennies, I could "cheat" a bit and get the ASW700 or 750. But I understand from virtually everyone this would be a mistake. So this one I can probably answer myself - this would not be a better choice apparently...

If you go with something like the 803S you can probably do without a ASW8** series sub long enough to save up for one down the road when it is convenient. The 803S is the end point for value in the B&W high end line. After the 803S the prices jump considerably due to B&W's need to cover the costs of developing the Diamond tweeters.

PS - Now I understand why in my last set of (inexpesive) HT speakers, I was driving myself nuts, in turns increasing the volume level on the backs, then the fronts, fiddling with the center (never feeling it quite gave me the clear vocals I needed for HT), and occasionally spilling drinks on the floor from rushing to the sub to turn it down/up... :evil:

Well, you may still find yourself rushing to the sub to turn it down, lol. Subs in particular can surprise you if they are not set up correctly with a SPL.

I know what you mean about inexpensive HT speakers. I had a low end Sony AV receiver with cube speakers whose name I can't even remember. The only time I was ever impressed with that system was when lightening would strike occasionally in the back speakers on some movies. Other than that I hardly noticed the surround was even there, it simply lacked cohesion with the front speakers. My next surround system at my old house was a Bose HTIB, that was a little better, but still had the same problems, I left that system at the house when I sold it as an included bonus, hahaha, sucker.

I had owned audiophile equipment for more than a decade but never applied any of it to HT, mostly because I couldn't afford it on my monthly income, or rather, I couldn't save it because my wife and I have three kids and often spend impulsively. I took out a home equity loan recently to buy myself a Lotus Elise and had a nice amount of money left over afterwards, and I had also payed off my credit cards, which is what afforded me the extra money to make these recent purchases to improve my audio setup and to also turn it into a quality HT system. I basically bought all new equipment and gave my old Bob Carver gear to my brother-in-law, since most of my gear was fairly old, and older audio equipment is not HT friendly. I won't be upgrading my system for a long time to come, and won't even complete it for a year or two, so I am making sure I do it right, so I am happy with it for a long time to come.

[JKalman]

2 - If *you* only hear a small improvement in the 805's compared to the 705's, is it worth it (for you) to spend 2x or more on that difference? You'll have to balance that against money lost if you upgrade vs changes you'd want to make, etc.

If I could do it all over again, I'd have bought the best front floorstanding speakers and amp I could afford, and a stereo preamp, and added a center, rears, and a processor later.

grit has some great points. I do want to point out that you stated that your dealer has a full purchase-price refund. You should ask him how long that lasts for, and if you could get full purchase price refund after a short period of time, and how short that period of time would be if you want to upgrade to higher-end equipment.

Keeping in mind that your listening ability and your focus will improve as you enjoy your system, that you will actively grow in your awareness of sound quality (like grit, myself, and most people who are enthusiastic for audio do as they participate in this hobby), it isn't unimaginable that over some time, that 10% difference you heard between the 705 and the 805 will become a larger percentage.

I agree with grit on many of his points, which is why you should make sure that if you decide to upgrade a month or two down the road, that the option is available to you for no loss in price. BTW, I hope you are haggling with your dealer. It is not unreasonable to expect at least 10% off of the equipment you are buying, 12% would be more reasonable IMO, since speakers usually have a more flexible markup. Company's like Sony or Yamaha are another story, their prices have less overhead for profit. Don't be afraid to get pushy about this, it is normal to get these discounts, and any dealer unwilling to make that kind of sacrifice, considering they are still making a lot of money off your purchase, probably isn't worth dealing with.

I especially agree with grit concerning "doing it all over again". Fortunately, my B&W dealer rocks and gave me that opportunity after owning my 7 series speakers for two months. I had to sacrifice my usual 12% discount, but it was worth it to get the 802Ds. If I had more foresight, like grit and I are giving you now, I would have gotten my 802Ds at a 12% discount. Lesson learned. I hope you don't have to learn this lesson the hard way. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you need to necessarily buy Diamond speakers, that wouldn't be a terrible thing though, but you should shop around between other 8 series speakers, and other companies to be certain you are making the right decision. The only thing you have to lose by taking your time and being thorough is your uncertainty.

[EastCoaster]

In *MY* case, I'm considering an upgrade from my 703's
.

Hi Grit - thanks for those comments - much appreciated. Can I ask why are you considering an upgrade from the 703's? That looks to be a terrific speaker! And what do you think you would upgrade it to? How big is your listening room?

[EastCoaster]

I do know that studios, both movie and music types, use 5 of the same speakers for surround. For subs they probably use two. Two subs gives them low bass in stereo. You will hear soundtracks and music recordings the way they are engineered if you have all 805s. For this reason I think you should check with your dealer, or simply compare the specifications of the 805s and the HTM4 to see if it is indeed an 805 on its side.

Yes, I see what you are saying, and it does make sense. I do believe that the HTM4 is an 805 on its side, as the literature on that speaker says: "The HTM4S is the smallest of the centre speakers in the range and is effectively an 805S with a different aspect and the added feature of magnetic shielding. It is therefore the ideal centre speaker when assembling a high quality, yet compact home theatre system with the 805S looking after the left and right channels."

There are those rare recordings, which might become less rare over time as engineers become more daring, where they use all five channels fully, e.g. - Bela Fleck's Blue Grass Sessions Volume 2 on DVD-Audio. I personally find these recordings annoying despite how much I love Bela Fleck's music.

Yes, and that's why I think I started looking seriously at all matched speakers - because I think the more time goes by, the more that's going to become important for music. It won't help me with my 1,000 CD collection, but it may for good new music. One of the things I actually want to do is to start buying some new music (I've been out of the loop for a long time, listening just to my old favorites). I'm hoping my new purchase will help that process along!

might effect the imaging of very small locational entities travelling from back to front in the sound field, such as bullets or the sound ball on the Avia test DVD.

I guess you're saying the bullets would sound differently as the sound moves from the back to the front? Hmmm... I have to admit, it sounded foolish to me to invest as much money in the back as in the front, and I wouldn't have done it were it not for the fact that I'm counting on multichannel music to become more prevalent!

I believe I was having this problem between my 703s and my 705s with bullets travelling from front to back on Black Hawk Down and I'll likely have the problem between the 802Ds and the 805Ds when I buy the 805Ds.

Well, I guess that just confuses me a bit - aren't the 703s supposed to be matched with the 705s? Why would there be any problem? And it shouldn't be the speaker stands, should it? The 705s were designed for stands, no?

As far as the 804s are concerned. I originally compared those with the 703s and at the time I liked the 703s better. I only tested them for around 10 minutes and I only listened to one music CD, the Ray Charles and Friends one. Something to keep in mind, the 703 gives you more drivers than the 805, while the 805 has newer technology, this is why the 703 costs more than the 805, it will give you a fuller sound without a sub.

If you will be listening to a lot of stereo sources, I definitely recommend you buy floorstanding speakers, because they will allow you to use bypass modes (to bypass processing modes in mid to high quality preamp/processors or integrated recievers).

Well, I think that from the 805s, the only upgrade that I would need to do as far as the 5 speakers, would be to the 804s in the front, if I really felt like I needed that... Anything above that would be financial suicide for me! I wonder how matched the 804 are to the 805?

This would also mean you are prepared to upgrade to a better integrated AV receiver down the road which offers bypass modes, unless of course your Yamaha does offer that, which it might.

Well, I think my Yamaha should do that (not yet sure). It's the RX-V2600, which is the newest one (just came out a couple of months ago). I think there's only one other receiver above it, which is the 4600. And I haven't checked it out yet, but I think it should at least give me the option to send the lower frequencies to all speakers (if one doesn't have a sub), or send to the lower frequencies to the sub (i.e., it may just be a switch, no?). And then, I can just control the sub, I believe...?

Of course, if you can do the 803S for your stereo speakers with 805s in the back, that would be a phenomenal system, worthy of bragging about and yet price conscious at the same time.

Hmmm... And if I do the 804s for the front, with 805s in the back? Those would not be matched well together and with the HTM4? (that's an itch I may have to scratch...)

but don't get caught up in the excitement of buying anything yet, definitely do all the auditioning. I would definitely audition the 803S, 804S and the 805. I'm sure you will see a large difference between the 803S and the 805.

Well, it's just a tad too late for that.... I did go back to my dealer today, and listened to the 705 versus the 805, and to the 805 versus the 704. As I mentioned I think before, the 805 definitely sounded better than the 705.... Not that the 705 sounded bad - not at all! But, when the 805 were on, the sound was fuller, sweeter, and the vocals were crystal clear. The bass was a bit better as well on the 805. The 705 was great, really great, but the treble was just a bit washed out, and the bass just a bit duller. It had less of a soundstage. I guess overall, I would say it sounds duller - less sharp. Is the 805s 10% better than the 705s? Yes. Is it 15% better? Hmmm... Maybe... Is it 20% better? I don't know. Is it worth the extra money? Hmmm.. Yeah... :B And the 704 versus the 805, I guess it's no surprise that the 704 had a bigger soundstage, and was a little boomier, but again, compared to the crystal-cracking 805, it just sounded more washed out... There was a pair of 804s in the corner, standing there like big black gleaming towers... :W But I didn't go there... Not yet anyway...

So yeah, I did order the 805s today, all four of them, in Rosenut (goes together with my furniture) and with a matching HTM4... :lol:

No one will have to sacrifice any animals! (unless someone beats me up for getting a matching color ASW700 to go along with the above, which is something I did do). My listening room (living room) is small, and I don't live in a detached house. I'm going to try and start with the ASW700 and see where I go from there. My dealer is great, and very kind. He's offered to take back the ASW700 and give me full purchase price credit toward another, more expensive speaker (on all five speakers, by the way).

And of course, thank you, and all the others on the forum who have been so kind as to share their experiences with me - as you can see, I did listen carefully, and you did make a big difference in my decisions! It will take a couple of weeks to get the speakers, but I'll post some good pics of the set-up when I get it!

PS - I don't think I'm going to get the B&W speaker stands for the 805s (seems a bit like a waste of money if I can buy good metal ones for less than half the money). Would that be a mistake?

I took out a home equity loan recently to buy myself a Lotus Elise .

Ohhhh! Nice! Is there a picture of that car somewhere?

[EastCoaster]

it isn't unimaginable that over some time, that 10% difference you heard between the 705 and the 805 will become a larger percentage..

Oh man - wouldn't that be just amazing! If that difference grows, I'm going to be as happy as a little piggy in a bucket of sh...t!

I agree with grit on many of his points, which is why you should make sure that if you decide to upgrade a month or two down the road, that the option is available to you for no loss in price. BTW, I hope you are haggling with your dealer.

Well, I didn't exactly haggle, but I did fairly gently suggest to him that I'd like a break (or two)... (given that I walked in there asking for the 602s, then ordered 705's and 704s, and then bought the 805s!). He's also going to let me upgrade for full purchase price even a few months down the road!

[JKalman]

I guess you're saying the bullets would sound differently as the sound moves from the back to the front? Hmmm... I have to admit, it sounded foolish to me to invest as much money in the back as in the front, and I wouldn't have done it were it not for the fact that I'm counting on multichannel music to become more prevalent!

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't state what I meant clearly. The sound as it travels from the front to back and from the back to front can be out of synchronization height wise, but this might not be as much an issue with the differences between the 805 and 804 size wise. It could be an issue with the Dolby and THX standards defining the surround channels as elevated a little higher than the stand mounts for the 805s are designed to reach. So the soundtracks are engineered for the speakers to possibly be about 4-6 feet higher possibly causing a discontinuity when your speakers are not mounted as high as the specifications define. I doubt you will notice it like I did with the HTM7, the 703s and the 705s. It was probably due to the inconsistencies between those three different speakers in the system when they were interacting.

Well, I think that from the 805s, the only upgrade that I would need to do as far as the 5 speakers, would be to the 804s in the front, if I really felt like I needed that... Anything above that would be financial suicide for me! I wonder how matched the 804 are to the 805?

I truly agree with grit that spending the most on the front left and right speakers and adding surrounds later is worth it if that allows you to move up to a speaker like the 803S. Just having nice speakers in the front alone adds so much to the experience for me, even with only stereo and no surround, and I had a full 7 series surround setup before, as I have mentioned numerous times.

Well, I think my Yamaha should do that (not yet sure). It's the RX-V2600, which is the newest one (just came out a couple of months ago). I think there's only one other receiver above it, which is the 4600. And I haven't checked it out yet, but I think it should at least give me the option to send the lower frequencies to all speakers (if one doesn't have a sub), or send to the lower frequencies to the sub (i.e., it may just be a switch, no?). And then, I can just control the sub, I believe...?

It definitely should. Yamaha makes very good mass market AVRs. You can turn the sub output off and this usually routes the low frequency signals to the other speakers in the system, or rather, it turns off the crossover point so that it never gets filtered out to a sub channel. It is usually it is in the digital setup menus somewhere.

One of the nice things about current AVRs is you can make a 4.1 system, which lowers the sound power level a little bit (for every speaker you add to a system it raises the SPL like 3 dB I believe, or is it 2, something like that), but allows you to turn off the center channel and route the signal to the left and right front speakers. The nice thing about this is you can still have the same experience you would have with a 5.1 system if you are the only person watching your HT system and you sit on axis (never more than 8 inches off the center axis). That means you can buy better stereo speakers, surround speakers and subwoofers and save up money for a center channel later on while still enjoying how your HT system will sound (if you are matching the front three speakers exactly later on). You can also turn off the surrounds which I believe turns your system into a virtual surround system, some companies are selling dedicated virtual surround setups now, for people with limited budgets, space and/or a fear of wires on the floor.

If you are going to be watching your HT system with other people frequently it is a problem because anyone not sitting centered between the left and right speakers will not have dialogue and other central sounds anchored where they are supposed to be on the TV/movie screen.

You can also build a 4.0 system which means you leave out the subwoofer as well. Right now my system is a 2.0 and speaker wise the next evolution will be to add surrounds for a 4.0 system. The 802D has terrific bass without a subwoofer so my system won't suffer too much for the lack of a sub until I can afford a really nice one down the road. First things first, I think my next purchase is going to be the Ayre C-5xe. I'll be demo-ing it against my Denon DVD-5910 this coming week, hopefully Tuesday or Wednesday to see if I feel like making the investment or if I want to put the money somewhere else, like towards a pair of 803D speakers (since I heard they are not going to release 805Ds anytime in the near future). This will make my system a 4.0 setup. I might even decide to save up for 802Ds all around, or, God forbid, move the 802Ds to the back and get some 800Ds (nah, my wife would castrate me if I went that far - I would have to sell the Lotus if I wanted to pull that one off).

Hmmm... And if I do the 804s for the front, with 805s in the back? Those would not be matched well together and with the HTM4? (that's an itch I may have to scratch...)

Indeed, you would have to get the HTM3S instead to have a perfect pairing between the front 3 speakers, but if you are not watching movies with other people very often, you can use your Yamaha receiver to create a 4.0 or 4.1 system and do without a center channel till you save up for one later on down the road.

Well, it's just a tad too late for that.... I did go back to my dealer today, and listened to the 705 versus the 805, and to the 805 versus the 704. As I mentioned I think before, the 805 definitely sounded better than the 705.... Not that the 705 sounded bad - not at all! But, when the 805 were on, the sound was fuller, sweeter, and the vocals were crystal clear. The bass was a bit better as well on the 805. The 705 was great, really great, but the treble was just a bit washed out, and the bass just a bit duller. It had less of a soundstage. I guess overall, I would say it sounds duller - less sharp. Is the 805s 10% better than the 705s? Yes. Is it 15% better? Hmmm... Maybe... Is it 20% better? I don't know. Is it worth the extra money? Hmmm.. Yeah... :B And the 704 versus the 805, I guess it's no surprise that the 704 had a bigger soundstage, and was a little boomier, but again, compared to the crystal-cracking 805, it just sounded more washed out... There was a pair of 804s in the corner, standing there like big black gleaming towers... :W But I didn't go there... Not yet anyway...

I personally think you would have benefitted more from auditioning everything, which is why I've been suggesting you do so for the last few days. If you audition thoroughly you will have less uncertainties. I think trying out the 804S and the 803S would have been a good experience, so you could see how the sound evolves as you move up the line, and perhaps you would have noticed that saving up more money and getting a floorstander would have been worth it.

So yeah, I did order the 805s today, all four of them, in Rosenut (goes together with my furniture) and with a matching HTM4... :lol:

Excellent color, very elegant IMO. If I could go back and change my choice in colors I would get the Rosenut instead of the Cherry. The Cherry was lighter than I expected, that is what I get for not following my own advice. Well actually, that is why I advised you to go in and look at them in person... Because I didn't and learned the hard way. *Bonks self on the head*

No one will have to sacrifice any animals! (unless someone beats me up for getting a matching color ASW700 to go along with the above, which is something I did do). My listening room (living room) is small, and I don't live in a detached house. I'm going to try and start with the ASW700 and see where I go from there. My dealer is great, and very kind. He's offered to take back the ASW700 and give me full purchase price credit toward another, more expensive speaker (on all five speakers, by the way).

Like I said before, it has nothing to do with the size of your room, it has to do with matching your line of speakers to the subwoofer. Think of it like you think of the center channel matching with the front speakers... If they don't match you get inconsistencies, which is even more of a problem with bookshelf speakers than floorstanders since the bookshelf speakers can't reproduce the bass range as fully. None the less though, mixing and matching even with floorstanders is still a bad idea for reasons I will state.

The principle concerning the interaction between your sub and the rest of your speakers is comparable to the principle concerning the interaction between your center channel and your front left and right speakers, though perhaps not as immediately noticeable because we tend to notice the mid and high range octaves more immediately. Certain lines of subs are designed from the ground up to pair with certain lines of speakers. They are built to share characteristics which improve their integration with that line of speakers, i.e. an ASW825 and ASW850 is designed to integrate/compliment/pair with the 8 series B&W speakers. I don't know how to make this any clearer, since I have stated this throughout the entire thread. Size has never been the issue. The only thing size should effect is whether you buy an ASW800 instead of an ASW825 or ASW855 not whether you buy a subwoofer which is not designed to match the rest of your speakers. The lower numbered 8 series subs have less Watts, and this is what will effect the sound power level. Having a large amount of Watts also does not mean you need to use them all. The more overhead you have in terms of Watts, the more stable your subwoofers output will be. The issue here is that the components which comprise the ASW800, ASW825, and ASW855, etc, were carefully chosen because they closely match things like the bass drivers, and other elements of the 800 series speakers.

I wouldn't start switching everything around on the poor guy if you didn't take the time to audition everything, he might start hiding when you come by the shop. I'm kidding, but seriously though, people do have limits before they start to get frustrated. Though, considering he didn't give you a discount, I guess you shouldn't feel too obligated to avoid making him work harder. Did you get the upgrade promise on paper, did you have a witness with you, or did he list it as part of his business policy somewhere. I hate to think the worst of human nature, but the worst is sometimes the reality. It isn't legally binding unless you can prove it.

...I'll post some good pics of the set-up when I get it!

Good, I am personally looking forward to seeing how it ends up looking and how you set it up in your space. Some before and after pictures would be cool also, I wish I took some of my system before hand.

PS - I don't think I'm going to get the B&W speaker stands for the 805s (seems a bit like a waste of money if I can buy good metal ones for less than half the money). Would that be a mistake?

I would reconsider this decision. B&W designs the 8 series stands specifically for the 805 speaker. They are very well constructed, not to mention aesthetically pleasing when paired with the speakers they were specifically designed for. They are balanced correctly for that one speaker and that one speaker only, this designed balance falls all the way through to the rubber pads and spikes that you put on the bottom to stabilize the speakers as well. They are also an exact height which B&W says is the height that the speaker was designed to be at off of the floor, though this could be relative to floorstanders since most people mix and match, using 805s for surrounds and floorstanders in the front, but hey, you may still decide to upgrade later on down the road, or years from now you may buy new front speakers. You have come so far, why cut such a small corner now? :P

I likewise still feel that way about the sub also. I hope you at least auditioned it with the 805s and compared it to the 7 series sub before deciding. If you only ask a salesperson, he/she is usually going to agree with whatever he/she thinks you want them to agree with. As it has been quite obvious throughout this entire thread how badly you want to go with a cheaper sub, and how many reasons you have come up with to reinforce that desire, I worry that you unintentionally made this obvious to the salesperson as well. It is a common sales philosophy, "the customer is always right". A good sales person can tell what you want as an answer from them by how you ask the question, e.g. - "I would be fine with an ASW700 subwoofer if my space is small and I have a lot of neighbors, do you think"?

Heheh, I learned this from asking those kind of questions of my salesperson when I bought my first surround setup, the 703s, 705s and HTM7 and ASW750. I asked those kinds of questions about the HTM7 and ended up with it, but when I asked about the center channel for the 6 series he also agreed I should go with that and it would sound fine. As we all know, that wasn't the case, and considering how the HTM7 lacked cohesion with the 703s, I shudder to imagine how my old system would have sounded with the 6 series center channel paired with the 703s. I realize looking back now, that he was going to say yes to whatever he thought I wanted without giving me any thoughtful input. He has been very honest though after the fact and even admitted later on that I probably know more about the speakers and electronics than he does. Which is why I don't ask him those kind of questions anymore and instead ask some of the other guys at this particular store who were more helpful in their suggestions and answers.

Another guy working there, who recommended my Bryston pieces, is really on top of his equipment, and then another of the guys has strong ties in the industry and is extremely knowledgeable about all the equipment he carries as well. The latter recommended the Rotel RCD-1072 if I wanted to spend a nominal fee and see a large increase in sound quality for Red Book CD over a cheap DVD player I was using while saving for a better music playback source. He didn't try to sell me anything very high in price, he tried to sell me something reasonable that really did hold a huge increase in sound quality over the DVD player I had been using while I built up my system more. Integrity like that seems hard to find on the sales end of this business. No one made any higher priced recommendations until I actively pursued it with them.

Ohhhh! Nice! Is there a picture of that car somewhere?

Sure. :W