800D's Need a Subwoofer?

[RebelMan]

Rebelman,

What are the figures we are talking about. ? Why not lesser 802D's (not really that much less) and a powerful sub ? Especially if space is a concern. You know those 802D's are already pretty big. When you move them in to the room next to your 803S's, the 803S' will be dwarfed by the 802D's, not to mention 800D's.

Well doggy, I have seen the 803S's and the 802D's side by side and frankly I thought the 803D's appeared, from my seated postion, bigger. Granted the 802D's are considerably longer (deeper) but the overly curvacious design of the 802D's seemed to the curtail the differences. I suspect the 800D's would follow a similar trend? What do you think Viper? How much bigger do the 800D's seem to be compared to your 802N's?

As much as I like the 802D's acoustically and that they sport a fancier plinth, IMO, something symmetrical is missing. You have to be anal retentive to understand what I mean. I prefer the grills off and the 10" drivers of the 800D's are perfectly centered. Weird I know, my eye for detail is extreme even for my own good. 8)

[Indytown]

Well doggy, I have seen the 803S's and the 802D's side by side and frankly I thought the 803D's appeared, from my seated postion, bigger. Granted the 802D's are considerably longer (deeper) but the overly curvacious design of the 802D's seemed to the curtail the differences. I suspect the 800D's would follow a similar trend? What do you think Viper? How much bigger do the 800D's seem to be compared to your 802N's?

As much as I like the 802D's acoustically and that they sport a fancier plinth, IMO, something symmetrical is missing. You have to be anal retentive to understand what I mean. I prefer the grills off and the 10" drivers of the 800D's are perfectly centered. Weird I know, my eye for detail is extreme even for my own good. 8)

My understanding and I may be wrong, is the 10 inch drivers sport the magnet structure of the 15 inch driver of the 801D. So the 10 driver has some torch to it to say the least. The 10 inch drivers are symmetrical with the marlan head.

Side by side listening of 800 vs. 802 yields a fuller, wider and more solid soundstage. The 802's are excellent speakers, the 800's with those dual 10 inch drivers just create are far superior 2 channel istening experience.

The extra 2 inchs of width and 2 additional inches of depth may not seem much but it makes the body of the 800d play with the big boys in speaker design. It's alot of veneer and speaker body.

I've read pro's and cons about the plinth, they sit on a plinth the same as the B&W snails does.

Would a plinth of a curved design still keeping with same color sceam or one with some outrigger feet such as the Karma's be better or a base that looks like the 705 high end speaker stands that retail for $400 a pair do them justise??? The current plinths fit the 800d speaker.

Indy

[rmht]

Why has bi-amping the 800's not been mentioned? The manufactuers put two pair of binding posts for a reason. Run the tops of the speakers off of one amp being feed the fronts feed from your preamp and the lowers off of a another amp with the sub(lfe) preout.

[misterdoggy]

Like this at Abbey Road Studios

[Ryx]

Why has bi-amping the 800's not been mentioned? The manufactuers put two pair of binding posts for a reason. Run the tops of the speakers off of one amp being feed the fronts feed from your preamp and the lowers off of a another amp with the sub(lfe) preout.

unfortunatly this will not work as well as it might seem, you would be missing all your mid-low frequencies. the LFE outputs only the lowest of frequencies, although a proccessor can be set to send more of the mid-lows to the LFE channel, you still wouldn't get them all and would be far from the ideal situation.

IMHO missing the lowest of lows would me much better then missing any of the mid-lows!

I would like to add however that bi-amping them could have positive results, but using the L-R signals for both amps, not the LFE signal!

[SRT-10 Viper]

Rebelman; Per your question on 800D vs 802N, the best way I can anwer that is my wife hadn't seen the 800Ds prior to me getting them and I tried to set her expectationes that the speakers would be larger. Her comment after they were installed was that they are not much different than the 802Ns in size from her perspective.

[caleb]

Unfortunately now defunct. the TAG McLaren AV32DP with room equalisation was IMHO the best on the market and certainly tamed my bass problems of boominess.

You can still get them occassionally in second hand and at fleabay.

[misterdoggy]

Rebelman; Per your question on 800D vs 802N, the best way I can anwer that is my wife hadn't seen the 800Ds prior to me getting them and I tried to set her expectationes that the speakers would be larger. Her comment after they were installed was that they are not much different than the 802Ns in size from her perspective.

Isn't it great when the little lady doesn't notice your $16k expenditure !!

she..... How much did they cost ?

you... Oh, just a little more, I got a great deal

[SRT-10 Viper]

Rebellman; Here are pictures that might help.

[RebelMan]

doggy, seem's like Abbey has their 800D's pretty close together. I figure the L and R are about 12' apart (outside edges) with another 800D in the center effectively halving the distance. My drawings are shown with them about 8.5' apart (~7.25' spread in the middle).

In my existing room I sit about 12' away from either the L or R of my 803S's and they are about 7.5' apart, from center to center. Imaging and sound-staging are very good (each sit about .5' further away from the back wall then the 800D's would in their new room but the existing room is not treated; wall is bare with windows).

I am hoping the location the 800D's would work well in the new space. I am constantly reminded of Disney's "Aladdin" when the genie mentions... "Phenomenal cosmic powers! In a itty bitty living space." :lol:

[RebelMan]

Viper, WAF rates high in my book and given your before and after pics it would seem she is right. They don't look "much" bigger. That is a very good thing. I have been curious though when B&W quotes their 800D dimensions if they are with respect to the cabinet or the plinth. If it isn't too much of an imposition, could you check the W and L of the plinth? That would be very helpful in my planning. Thanks!

[misterdoggy]

Rebellman; Here are pictures that might help.

SRT Viper SWEEEET !!!

Nice setup !! Hats off To you.

I like the matching cabinet, fits in nicely. You know its top top stuff, but so discreetly put together.

Nice Classe Amps, balanced one to a side, then the rest hidden away. Is there a center speaker somewhere ?

Class Look.

Mine is a little more "in your face"(below) I'm sure my wife would prefer your presentation.

[misterdoggy]

doggy, seem's like Abbey has their 800D's pretty close together. I figure the L and R are about 12' apart (outside edges) with another 800D in the center effectively halving the distance. My drawings are shown with them about 8.5' apart (~7.25' spread in the middle).

Don't go by recording studios. They are literally in a small listening/working room/box with everything right there so to speak. They want to hear all the details and the speakers can be only about 6 feet in front of them.

I was in the studio in London when the Beatles were recording their white album and although the studio itself was spacious, the engineering room was quite small.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Misterdoggy; Here is an updated picture with the center and Velodyne DD18

The components are a little closer together for XMAS.

[SRT-10 Viper]

RebelMan;

I just measured the plinth... It's 17 3/4" X 25 1/2".

[RebelMan]

Misterdoggy; Here is an updated picture with the center and Velodyne DD18

The components are a little closer together for XMAS.

SWEEEEEEEET!!! :T Nice pic Viper!

[RebelMan]

RebelMan;

I just measured the plinth... It's 17 3/4" X 25 1/2".

Excellent! Thank you very much Viper.

I have my 803S's, HTM3S and ASW-825 in another room, to accomodate the company that came to visit and I didn't want any accidents. The 803S's are on top of a cotton rug that measures almost precisely the size of your plinth. The room is slightly larger than the room I would build at 10.5' W. The length of the test room is only 11.75' L but puts me at just about the seating distance away from the mains as if I were in the new room.

The 803S's and the HTM3S without the sub seem to fit the room perfectly even taking into account the extra 6" that I would be missing. The "rug" plinth underneath gives me a very good eye cue as to what the 800D's might look like in the same space. They might appear a little snug but not nearly to the extent the 803S's did when I put my sub into position. I think when this is all over (my room is built and the speakers in place) will make for some very intresting discussions. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but maybe very close to it?

The only other thing I am concerned about now would be the timbre' between the front (diamond) and back (aluminum) tweets.

[grit]

Isn't it great when the little lady doesn't notice your $16k expenditure !!

she..... How much did they cost ?

you... Oh, just a little more, I got a great deal

LMAO! :rofl:

[JKalman]

I just wanted to post one more thing concerning the decision. I know my answers seem goofy sometimes, but I did choose my 802Ds with close consideration. The difference between the 800D and the 802D has been equated with a 5% difference in overall sound quality. The price difference is 80%. That is a big difference in the sound quality to price ratio. Just something for your consideration.

New speakers will always be coming out. In enough time we will all have upgraded again. The question is, is that 5% difference worth the 80% increase in price. I feel for the price payed, the quality of sound I get from the 802Ds are more than adequate, especially when considering the competition in a comparative price bracket. I also feel, that the 800Ds are competitive in their bracket. I just can't justify paying 80% price difference for that 5% difference. Just some food for thought.

I don't think you will be unhappy with the 800D, though I do think you need a room correction device for them in such a small space, otherwise you should go smaller. My 802Ds hit their best sound almost 4 feet from the front and side walls! No joke. I too need a room correction preamp.

[JKalman]

BTW, likewise, a lot of people will find the similar price hike from the 600, 700, or N800 series to the high end 800 series diamonds to not be worth the smaller percentage increase in sound quality. The change in sound quality is logarithmic with the rise in price.

[RebelMan]

This hobby is all about the law of diminishing returns, i.e., what we are willing to pay and what we are willing to accept for that price. It's hard to say wether the 800D's provide a 5% improvement over the 802D's or not because to some it maybe less than this figure and to others it maybe more. Other things to consider that may effect this number in addition to what is heard (or not heard!) are esthetics, supporting equipment and long term plans.

I owned a set of speakers, that will remain nameless , for more than seven years with no plans to give them up. Why? Because they served their purpose very well. I eventually surrendered them but not because they lost their luster. I had other plans that made their continued existance redundant and therefore unnecessary.

My point is that upgrades are always possible but not always necessary. I'm not 100% sure that I will end up with the 800D's or not. Then again, that wasn't the aim of this exercise. The goal was to know if it was "possible" to use a pair of 800D's in lieu of a subwoofer, namely the ASW-825, for home theater applications. The consensus seems to be that they would be a good compromise.

The 800D's command a substantial premium, no doubt. But for me that price delta would come in around 55%. Still a lot to pay for what might seem like a small gain to some but to me it just might be the right thing to do!

BTW, Those nameless speakers recovered 80% of the price I paid for them, SEVEN YEARS LATER!!! I am confident the B&W's will have no problem achieving the same, should they be upgraded say seven years from now. Factor that in and my "losses" drop down to ~10%. For a 5% gain, seems like a no brainer to me.

[RebelMan]

I don't think you will be unhappy with the 800D, though I do think you need a room correction device for them in such a small space, otherwise you should go smaller. My 802Ds hit their best sound almost 4 feet from the front and side walls! No joke. I too need a room correction preamp.

I have not ruled this possibility out. My next pre/pro upgrade will probably need to support this feature, with defeat capabilities too. Personally I believe most rooms could probably do with some type of correction. Conventional or otherwise (DSP).

BTW, I appreciate everyone's input goofy or otherwise. We are all here to learn and share in one way or another.

[RobP]

Rebelman, before you rely on room correction devices, I would get the room itself in order acousticly. Since you will have a blank slate to start with, you can design the room to deal with problems that you will be facing. Have you considered hiring an advisor to help design the room? A little spent here could give you more for your money in your quest.

[RebelMan]

Rebelman, before you rely on room correction devices, I would get the room itself in order acousticly. Since you will have a blank slate to start with, you can design the room to deal with problems that you will be facing.

Agreed. I am not a huge proponent of parametric equalization systems. I guess that is because I am negatively affected by psychoacoustic tendancies when it comes to these types of devices. I like my signals kept clean and free of any tampering. Eventually, I may over come them! :lol:

Have you considered hiring an advisor to help design the room? A little spent here could give you more for your money in your quest.

The thought has crossed my mind. First, I need to get a good picture of what I want before consulting with someone.

[Blazar]

I just bought a SVS ultra sub for my 802D's and there is clear improvemet for the 18 to 60 hz range. Above 60 or so, the sub becomes localizable and will ruin the stereo image to some degree or just be disctracting from time to time.

[JKalman]

I am in the planning stages of converting one of my garage bays into a dedicated listening room. The room is not very wide only 10' max. I have considered adding another ASW-825 to the mix but doing so wipes out any room or movement between the remaining speakers (LRC) across the horizontal plane (front stage). (Each sub would sit between one of the mains and the center.)

Another thought I had would be to replace the LR channels and the existing ASW-825 with a pair of 800D's. I know it is not exactly an economical approach to solve a space issue, so please just indulge me for the moment. Assuming the 800D's are given plently of power, would I be able to experience the full effect of the LFE? Has anyone heard the 800D's with and without a subwoofer? I am not asking for paper based feedback ONLY real listeners please. Thanks!

So what was the final verdict. Does an 800D need a sub?

RebelMan, I'm asking my dealer tomorrow if I can trade in my 802Ds at cost for a pair of 800Ds. I may go the same route, and never buy subs for my system. What do you think? I have enough saved up to do it right away, i.e. $8000 dollars more to invest.

[caleb]

Mr Doggy,
Just noticed your photo of the 800s in Abbey Road, and it brings to mind the following comments: -

They have those beautiful speakers standing up on what looks like some crappy wooden boxes, and we all here on the forum are besotted with whether we should spike or not, or what is the right floor to put our speakers on etc..etc..

In Abbey Road, these are used to MASTER the final sound which we then listen to in our homes on our beloved HT systems.

Makes you think about all the junk that is spewed out daily by our members doesn't it?

[misterdoggy]

The listening Rooms are completely soundproof and padded everywhere. Since nothing is permanent and everything gets moved around in recording studios, the attitude is find whatever will keep that in place, put that here move that there.

In our homes we search to "don't move that" don't touch that" or if we do, its ever so slight to see if it sounds better.

Like I said, its a soundbooth. Imagine a big closet, all padded and just enough space for 5 or 6 people and ALL that equipment.

Turn up the MUSIC !!!!

[RebelMan]

So what was the final verdict. Does an 800D need a sub?

For my space and the fact that I can use Tactile Sound Transducers, no they (800D's) do not need subwoofers. For people with larger spaces and/or non-home theater type seating then the answer might be... maybe/maybe not.

The 800D's will deliver low enough frequencies to be heard but not to be "felt". My recent visit to CES offered me the unique opportunity to demo many different setups in rooms similar (and larger) to the one I would build. The rooms that had the best sounding acoustics were those that put LESS emphasis on LFE "amplification", were crossed at 40 Hz to minimize directionality, and had more than one subwoofer placed in strategic positions. However, if you are looking for a "ride" then high output subs and/or TST's will be necessary.

I want a good balance of acoustics and effects so for now I will use my existing setup in the new room then move into the 800D's (TST's) if necessary. The bottom line is I have choices that will not lock me in to any one particular configuration and still achieve the goal of uncompromised music listening and movie watching entertainment.

[Indytown]

For my space and the fact that I can use Tactile Sound Transducers, no they (800D's) do not need subwoofers. For people with larger spaces and/or non-home theater type seating then the answer might be... maybe/maybe not.

The 800D's will deliver low enough frequencies to be heard but not to be "felt". My recent visit to CES offered me the unique opportunity to demo many different setups in rooms similar (and larger) to the one I would build. The rooms that had the best sounding acoustics were those that put LESS emphasis on LFE "amplification", were crossed at 40 Hz to minimize directionality, and had more than one subwoofer placed in strategic positions. However, if you are looking for a "ride" then high output subs and/or TST's will be necessary.

I want a good balance of acoustics and effects so for now I will use my existing setup in the new room then move into the 800D's (TST's) if necessary. The bottom line is I have choices that will not lock me in to any one particular configuration and still achieve the goal of uncompromised music listening and movie watching entertainment.

Rebelman, like you said, maybe/maybe not. I have experimented with 2 channel and mutli-channel set-ups with the ideal cross over at 40hz; you let the sub slowly cross over to the lower end of the speakers capabilities; only the lowest octaves were played through a isobaric downfiring sub. The integration at best was not at 100% but close; its though to place a sub and get very good integration with the left and right channels. You would have to continually keep moving the sub for each track/cut and place it where the bass and kick drum are coming from. Down-firing isobaric sub helps.

Thats what the 800d's do with the right set-up, no sub needed.

You will feel the output from the 800d with the right amp, cables and pre-amp, even 12 ft away at moderate levels. Keep feeding them power, they just keep taking.

Indy

[caleb]

Abbey Road

The listening Rooms are completely soundproof and padded everywhere. Since nothing is permanent and everything gets moved around in recording studios, the attitude is find whatever will keep that in place, put that here move that there.

In our homes we search to "don't move that" don't touch that" or if we do, its ever so slight to see if it sounds better.

Like I said, its a soundbooth. Imagine a big closet, all padded and just enough space for 5 or 6 people and ALL that equipment.

Turn up the MUSIC !!!!

Hi Mr Doggy -
You are quite right about the sound rooms at Abbey Road, I used to record there in my earlier life in the 70's.
Caleb