800D's Need a Subwoofer?

[RebelMan]

I am in the planning stages of converting one of my garage bays into a dedicated listening room. The room is not very wide only 10' max. I have considered adding another ASW-825 to the mix but doing so wipes out any room or movement between the remaining speakers (LRC) across the horizontal plane (front stage). (Each sub would sit between one of the mains and the center.)

Another thought I had would be to replace the LR channels and the existing ASW-825 with a pair of 800D's. I know it is not exactly an economical approach to solve a space issue, so please just indulge me for the moment. Assuming the 800D's are given plently of power, would I be able to experience the full effect of the LFE? Has anyone heard the 800D's with and without a subwoofer? I am not asking for paper based feedback ONLY real listeners please. Thanks!

[ED K]

bass on 800D seakers

Not sure how musch bass you are looking for but I have a pair of B&W 802Ds. I'm running them off two Brytson 7BSST 600 watt mono blocks. I set the preamp to let all the bass go to the 802Ds. After doing that the ONLY time I use the Velodyne 18 inch sub is for "explosive " movies. Otherwise there is tremendous bass ability in the 800 series. I would expect that the 800Ds would prouce an even bigger bass resonce. For the size of your room I don't think you have to worry about the bass impact.
Ed

[Karma]

HI,
Yes, I agree. The 800D's are rated down to 32 Hz and actualy go lower at reduced outout. You would be asking the ASW825 to fill the range of from 32 Hz to 20 Hz. This is such a small range that the crossover would never have a chance to fully engage. You would be operating on the slope of the crossover curve which will yield unpredictable results. Better to just go with the beautiful native 800D bass which should be plenty.

Sparky

[PavelL]

Hey, why not give 801Ds a chance? Cheaper than 800Ds and not bass shy :lol:

[Indytown]

Hey, why not give 801Ds a chance? Cheaper than 800Ds and not bass shy :lol:

801d not very room friendly, they are huge with that single driver.
The 800d is proportional, it is only 2 inches wider and deeper than the 802.
The bass is deep, but what it does even more is fill in the low, mid and high bass resonance. The sound is much fuller.

Rebelman, I would think you are wasting your money to put a pair of 800D into a 10 foot wide room.

[RebelMan]

Rebelman, I would think you are wasting your money to put a pair of 800D into a 10 foot wide room.

Why do you think? The room I am dedicating will be constructed from scratch. As such, it will receive a full compliment of acoustical treatments from the inside walls and out. I believe I can manage (absorb) most of the low frequency resonances that would otherwise hamper soundstaging and imaging. Do you believe such an effort is fruitless? If so, why?

[radim]

Theory for the clear sound speaks for the fullrange speakers without the subwoofer. Of course the practice is the other side.

I think here are the two basic aspects:

1. badly room acoustic - without the sub you have very big problem. With the sub you can use parametric eq (for example velodyne sms-1) for correcting the problem
2. badly recorded or remastered cd's - without the sub is the sound flat (bassless) or by contrast overbassed. With the sub you can help to this record.

[misterdoggy]

I have the 802D's and although they go pretty low, Subwoofers do come in "just" at the moment in a film where you need that extra punch (boom bang). From my conversations with B&W techniciens, even the 802D's don't go to that very low area. So I have the ASW825 just for that purpose.

The 802D's stand alone Bass is great and probably the 800's would be great alone to. They will probably be better though with a sub.

[jericho]

I've got a pair of 800D with a pair of McIntosh MC-1201.They have a great bass response but I would not take those speakers for a small room because they like some power and at low level you will not get the kick of the bass.You're better with a pair of 8O5s and a pair of subs ASW-825.It's much cheaper.Don't forget if you take those 800D's you need a very powerfull amplifier like Krell, Mac, Classé with at least 400Watt.I have a McIntosh Mc-501 too, which I use on my center speaker.The difference you get on the 800D when you use the 501 and afterwards the 1201, is like driving a car with 200HP and one with 500HP.Even at low level there's a big difference in punch.

[DrJRapp]

Although most pre-pros are supposed to mx the X.1 LFE channel back into L&R when no sub is selected, I'm not sure they do all that great job of it. I suspect you will wind up missing some of what the director intended. I would try this setting with your current 803s (pehaps with some bass boost) just to see what the effect is like.

If you want a more creative approach to space conservation, try getting two flat topped well constructed subs (such as an SVS PB+ or PB Ultra) then sit your 803s ( or 803ds or 802Ds) on top of each. This, by the way, should put the tweets at just about the right height for a large screen, which usually gets mounted high to keep sightlines good, leaving most main speakers too low. This, along with a high enough center stand, will obviate the need to build a stage under the screen.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Rebelman; I have 800Ds Fronts with Classe/350s. If you are just going to listen to 2 Channel no need for a sub. If however, you are going to listen to movies, a sub will improve your results significantly. I started with no sub, went to a Velodyne DD12 and saw some improvement. I just upgraded to the DD18 and wow you can now feel the room shake.

[RebelMan]

Viper, my listening preferences are 50/50 and have been for the last 20+ years. I love watching movies every bit as much as I do listening to music. I am sure the 800D's are great for music and need no help from a subwoofer. However, I am a little worried about film and soundtrack playback with the LFE redirected to the mains.

Jerry may have a point about the loss of information with the redirected LFE signal. I can relate to it based on my experience with and without the use of a dedicated center channel. Assuming no information is lost, I was hoping the surface area of four 10" drivers could move as much air as four 7" drivers (my 803S's) and a 12" subwoofer (my ASW-825). I suspect some viscereal impact might be lacking without a sub in a large room but could the same be said of a 10x16 foot room?

How much improvement did you see with the DD12? I noticed it took an 18" sub to make a real difference in your system. Is it safe to assume that the DD12 made very little improvement over the 800D's alone? Maybe not enough improvement to be missed?

[SRT-10 Viper]

Rebelman; In a small room, I think you'll be fine. The DD12 made a difference not huge. The DD18 gives me the bone shaking feeling. I think you'll be fine with the 800Ds alone in your situation.

[misterdoggy]

Its the age old problem again.

On the DVD it says playback in 5.1

not 5.0 bridged

This is the way they made it in the studio, played it back to check it, and its intended use in our homes, when and if possible.

[RebelMan]

Its the age old problem again.

On the DVD it says playback in 5.1

not 5.0 bridged

This is the way they made it in the studio, played it back to check it, and its intended use in our homes, when and if possible.

So, there is no getting around it then eh?

If you had a choice, price not withstanding, would it be a pair of 803S's and two ASW-825's or just a pair of 800D's? Remember, I am 50/50 music/movies split.

[SRT-10 Viper]

I had 802N (now my rears) and bought 800Ds. I would do it again in a minute.

[misterdoggy]

So, there is no getting around it then eh?

If you had a choice, price not withstanding, would it be a pair of 803S's and two ASW-825's or just a pair of 800D's? Remember, I am 50/50 music/movies split.

Rebelman,

I would buy the 800D's cause I know down the line you will add the sub. At least for the moment's gratification you got the big Guns. The Sub really only comes in to play in the 20Hz-32Hz, which is the extra umpfff when the bombs explode on the beach in private Ryan and Stereo you use just the 800D's anyhow.

So... For Stereo you are in Nirvana and for Home Cinema, its Great waiting to be fantastic. Its hardly noticeable, but enough to be noticeable.

Also you don't need 2 ASW825's in either case. 1 would suffice.

In an A/B choice I will "X" the A choice for the pair of 800D's. But the difference in price is great, why don't you get 802D's and the ASW850. I mean we are not talking apples and apples, but apples and pears ?

[RebelMan]

Also you don't need 2 ASW825's in either case. 1 would suffice.

In an A/B choice I will "X" the A choice for the pair of 800D's. But the difference in price is great, why don't you get 802D's and the ASW850. I mean we are not talking apples and apples, but apples and pears ?

The relatively small space is why, see the preliminary drawings below. The first drawing shows the room with the 803S's and the twin subs and the second one with the 800D's. The speaker sizes are proportional to the room size as depicted.

The second sub would provide a smoother distribution of extended bass throughout the room not to mention the fact that I could integrate both of them for music playback.

[misterdoggy]

The relatively small space is why, see the preliminary drawings below. The first drawing shows the room with the 803S's and the twin subs and the second one with the 800D's. The speaker sizes are proportional to the room size as depicted.

The second sub would provide a smoother distribution of extended bass throughout the room not to mention the fact that I could integrate both of them for music playback.

I've studied your 2 professionally done sketches and theoretically they can be correct. The placement (IMHO of course) 2 subwoofers seem to be placed with thought more towards normal speakers than subwoofers which may not necessarily be optimum in that place.

Take into consideration other factors, your system, room conditions, height width, textures, furnitures and you may find you have to play with your placement.

At B&W they recommended that I put the Sub in the listening position and then move around the room to where it sounded best. That would be the placement of where the sub should go for instance.

In my home I found the surrounds slightly advanced from my sitting postion worked better than behind the sitting position.

In my minds eye, the workhorses of the system are the center left and right speakers and the surrounds and subwoofer are the extra's in HT but aren't used in 2 channel Stereo.

The difference between an 803s and 800D's is soooo vast that its hands down 800D's and save up for 1 Sub of quality and you're there. Live without a Sub.

I think you will always regret having had the chance to have 800D's and to have chosen 803S' in their place and later down the road you will be selling them for 1/2 price and putting half lost money down on a pair of 800D's.

Still, I don't understand the difference in $$ is great, why not come half way back and get a pair of 802D's which are considered better than the N800's and can work in a smaller space, cost enough less to have a super sub ?

[DrJRapp]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the nature of program material. Music content doesn't go as low as HT content. Most musical media currently extends down to about 40 hz while HT content extends to about 20 Hz and sometimes even lower. The 800Ds will do a fine job with the lower registers of 99% of recorded music, as will the 801s and 802s and even, to a great extent the 803s when driven with the right power will probably reproduce about 95% of recorded music with total volumetric accuracy.

Your HT experience, on the other hand WILL suffer. If I could characterize what best differentiates DD and DTS from older systems like ProLogic (not PLII) is the presence and judicious use of the LFE channel. The Crashes and booms that one feels as well as hears coming independently of the music and dialog are most of what distingusishes modern sound tracks from the older ones. My own personal opinion is that without a sub you would be very displeased with the character of your movie watching experience. I am also of the belief that your room is too small for the 800Ds to really open up and sing and you would be constantly listening to them at levels below their optimum design intention. All the acoustic treatment in the world isn't going to make that room sound any larger. It may absorb some acoustical energy, but it won't make it sound big. The 800Ds "big sound" will probably only draw attention to the inadequacies of the acoustic space. I had this condition previously with my study/library which measures 13.5 x 16. I was running a pair of Klipsch Chorud IIS which had a 15" woofer. The speaker just couldn't perform detail wise in that space the way it could when I brought them out into my Family room and opened them up. I'm now even experiencing a degree of that problem with my new XT4s which may be a tad larger than ideal for that room. The 802Ds probably would be more than sufficient in your size room, and yeild better detail in the bass, while perhaps not dipping quite as low in frequency. My final point, subwoofers achieve their speed and depth by using relatively speaking "huge" amplifiers. (I.E. my SVS sports 900 watts RMS). In order to achieve what you are attempting to achieve, you will have to provide your L & R 800Ds with huge amps that would not be required in the other circumstance. One then needs to consider the requirements of those amps in terms of electrical needs and cooling.

Another consideration must be the fact that your space limitation prevents ideal speaker placement for bass and imaging. The larger your speaker gets physically the more constrained your placement options become. You currently show the speakers located 4" from both side and rear wall. This is probably at least 3 feet less than ideal (in both dimensions). In a room that size the 805s ( rumored to soon become 805D) combined with a superlative sub (perhaps even one with built in room correction, or a BFD would really shine). Having the ability to move the mains around more is a definite plus and have separate control over the top end vs bottom end sound will be invaluable.

[RebelMan]

Musically speaking, I think there will be a lot to be gained by moving from my 803S's to the 800D's. However, truth be known, I am fairly concerned about my HT experience with them. Unfortunately, none of the dealers have the 800D's available nor do they have listening rooms that would approximate mine. This is why I came to the people of this forum that have the 800D's or who have heard them with and without a subwoofer in a HT environment.

I am not overly concerned about the size of the room. I know it is not the "ideal" size but most, that I have seen, had successful results using the 800D's in spaces 14' x X' or less. Additionally, they mention the 800D's were far more conducive to confined spaces, than the 801D's with their 15" drivers were, and that placement was rather trivial and not much of a concern, again in smaller spaces.

Theoretically, the effects of infinitely absorptive side walls would be the same as if the two parallel walls were infinitely far apart. Though, to achieve these effects in the "real" world will most likely go unrealized, I believe I can get close to an acceptable response. Furthermore, a big sound to me, apart from the size of the speaker drivers themselves, is dependent on how well the sound-waves are distributed in the room. Take any speaker and put it in an infinitely open space, no walls of any kind (or an anechoic chamber) how big will the sound be then?

I am not convinced that the size of my room will not work acoustically with the 800D's when proper steps are taken to treat it. The biggest problem I see with them are their imposing size. But, I am concerned that the 800D's will not perform well at the lower registers of film. I value Viper's remarks in that a 12" subwoofer added something to his HT experience but not enough beyond what he noticed with his 800D's alone. It took a much larger subwoofer to give him that "feel". This is encouraging. However, our rooms are different and this difference could be the stickler.

[RebelMan]

Still, I don't understand the difference in $$ is great, why not come half way back and get a pair of 802D's which are considered better than the N800's and can work in a smaller space, cost enough less to have a super sub ?

That, unfortunately, will put me back into the delima I am in now. I have a pair of 803S's and a subwoofer. There are real benefits to be had with adding another subwoofer to the mix and I would probably jump at the chance if I had more room to work with placing all of the speakers.

Achieving the proper time coherence, tonal balance, sound-staging and imaging for movies AND music with FIVE (not so small speakers) across a 10' front will be a major challenge to say the least. I believe two monsters and one large speaker can circumvent these issues and provide huge aural gains at the same time. But happiness is key. If the 800D's can't manage the HT "experience" (without a subwoofer, in a small space) then I won't be so happy.

[JKalman]

I am in the planning stages of converting one of my garage bays into a dedicated listening room. The room is not very wide only 10' max. I have considered adding another ASW-825 to the mix but doing so wipes out any room or movement between the remaining speakers (LRC) across the horizontal plane (front stage). (Each sub would sit between one of the mains and the center.)

Another thought I had would be to replace the LR channels and the existing ASW-825 with a pair of 800D's. I know it is not exactly an economical approach to solve a space issue, so please just indulge me for the moment. Assuming the 800D's are given plently of power, would I be able to experience the full effect of the LFE? Has anyone heard the 800D's with and without a subwoofer? I am not asking for paper based feedback ONLY real listeners please. Thanks!

I've demo-ed both the 800Ds and the 802Ds (I own a pair of the 802Ds, which I'm sure you already know). For music I find the 800Ds and 802Ds to be great because I prefer to just use stereo only and bypass the preamp, and for music the bass is more than adequate for me. As far as LFE for movies such as Jurrasic Park, movies where you will have moments of room shaking bass, the 800 and the 802D can't hit those deep levels... I'm very sorry to say so, because it is the only reason I will need to buy subs later on for my HT setup, and I'd much rather save the money. You might not feel the heartbeat on Dark Side of the Moon before you hear it. :cry:

Taking that into consideration, if it is a choice between buying the 800Ds and getting no bass, or not buying the 800Ds and buying two subs, it seems like an easy choice to me... buy the 800Ds. You won't miss the bass that much when you hear how pristine and detailed the 800Ds sound. Hell, that is why I ditched my whole surround setup, including my sub, for the 802Ds. I can't tell you how jealous I am that you can lay down close to 20k for those beauties. For me, buying my 802Ds was the closest I could get without my wife hiring someone to take me out...

[JKalman]

BTW, those moments in movies, like Jurrasic park, are so short lived compared to the immense pleasure you will gain the rest of the time with the 800Ds, IMO. If you arleady have a sub, just use that for the occasional moments in movies where it is needed. This of course is coming from someone who feels that musicallity and imaging is much more important than shaking the entire house when the T-Rex makes its appearence on screen...

[JKalman]

Why do you think? The room I am dedicating will be constructed from scratch. As such, it will receive a full compliment of acoustical treatments from the inside walls and out. I believe I can manage (absorb) most of the low frequency resonances that would otherwise hamper soundstaging and imaging. Do you believe such an effort is fruitless? If so, why?

I think you should seriously consider buying a preamp processor that can condition the sound for your space, since 10' truly is a very small amount of space for such large speakers. Look at how I have had to place my 802Ds (in the setup thread) to get the best balance without treatments in a 14' space. That is 4' more and I have to move them out pretty far from the walls to balance the lows with the mids and highs. I'm not sure how far you can take teatments before they alter the intended sound.

[JKalman]

So, there is no getting around it then eh?

If you had a choice, price not withstanding, would it be a pair of 803S's and two ASW-825's or just a pair of 800D's? Remember, I am 50/50 music/movies split.

800Ds of course. I made a similar decision and bought the 802Ds without surround and without a sub. And you know what? I have not regretted it, not even for a picosecond. :T You also have to keep in mind, that even with a 50/50 split you will still be missing only a very small portion of both which will dip into the bass range the speakers can not convey.

The only thing I do worry about is the size of the room for those speakers.

[RebelMan]

Another consideration must be the fact that your space limitation prevents ideal speaker placement for bass and imaging. The larger your speaker gets physically the more constrained your placement options become. You currently show the speakers located 4" from both side and rear wall. This is probably at least 3 feet less than ideal (in both dimensions).

Space constraints are more of a concern with the 803S's and the rest of the gang than the 800D's would be alone. It is difficult to see from the gridless drawings but the 800D's are postioned 2.25' from the rear and 1.33' from the side walls with respect to the center of the drivers facia. Probably less than ideal but I had to mathematically approxmiate their intended positions based on all of the room's variables (size, possible treatments, location of the listener), and the best location given the possible room resonance modes regarding standing waves, reflections and reverberations.

[JKalman]

Rebelman,In an A/B choice I will "X" the A choice for the pair of 800D's. But the difference in price is great, why don't you get 802D's and the ASW850. I mean we are not talking apples and apples, but apples and pears ?

I think this might be a great idea, considering your space constraints, unless you buy something to actively condition the signal for your space, which BTW would save you a lot of time on setting the room up, while also letting you use the money you would have used on room treatments on the device used to condition the signal for your room. The 800Ds are going to be better than the 802Ds, there is no getting around that, so if you can do that and get something to condition the signal for your space, God bless you!

[RebelMan]

Much food for thought and the feedback has been great. Thanks everyone.

[RebelMan]

I can't tell you how jealous I am that you can lay down close to 20k for those beauties. For me, buying my 802Ds was the closest I could get without my wife hiring someone to take me out...

LOL :lol:

I believe I can get a pretty substantial discount from my dealer. My dealer was very generous when I purchased my "lowly" 803S's. I suspect we could work out a deal that will be very favorable for all involved. Otherwise my delima will be no more!

BTW, I just made good on a present long time coming for my wife which I think will give me all the leverage that I need when the time comes. Who ever said that "diamonds" were (just) a girl's best friend!!! :rofl:

[RebelMan]

I think you should seriously consider buying a preamp processor that can condition the sound for your space, since 10' truly is a very small amount of space for such large speakers. Look at how I have had to place my 802Ds (in the setup thread) to get the best balance without treatments in a 14' space. That is 4' more and I have to move them out pretty far from the walls to balance the lows with the mids and highs. I'm not sure how far you can take teatments before they alter the intended sound.

I have concidered a DSP processor for this very purpose but two things would need to occur first, neither of which is on the foreseeable horizon. 1.) Bryston would have to issue a software upgrade to their new SP2 which they claim is at least a year away and 2.) Rotel would have to release an update to their RSP-1098, which "may" support this feature, also about a rumored year away.

In the words of Anakin Skywalker... "I say patience" is in order.

[RebelMan]

The only thing I do worry about is the size of the room for those speakers.

Yes, in this case size does matter. (Assuming you meant the physical dimensions.) :roll:

[JKalman]

Yes, in this case size does matter. (Assuming you meant the physical dimensions.) :roll:

Well, the good news is then, if you get the 800Ds there are electronic ways to deal with problems that can't be fixed with room treatments. There is an article in this months Absolute Sound about someone who is using a TacT to remedy similar problems, but that is a two channel preamp, not surround. Perhaps they do have a surround version, I'll post their website below. I doubt you would be unhappy with the 802Ds, which would leave you enough money for two 855 subs, but with those dimensions you might still need room correction with them too.

You really should try to get somewhere to demo them. Too bad you are not in NY, I know two places near me that have both speakers set up in their showrooms, one in Greenwich Connecticut and the other in White Plains. There must be a place in Phoenix that you could call for a demo and check out on a weekend? At the prices you are about to pay, I think it is worth a trip.

TacT

[JKalman]

Sweet, here is one:

TacT Theatre System

[JKalman]

I think I might save up for this myself. It is pretty cool stuff. You use it with a mic and a laptop and it corrects the sound for the response curves you require.

[JKalman]

Sweet 7.3 surround correction

[misterdoggy]

Rebelman,

What are the figures we are talking about. ? Why not lesser 802D's (not really that much less) and a powerful sub ? Especially if space is a concern. You know those 802D's are already pretty big. When you move them in to the room next to your 803S's, the 803S' will be dwarfed by the 802D's, not to mention 800D's.

As Jkalman says, the big bang moments that the sub kicks in are few, but there, and I can tell you from experience there's a lot of boom coming out of those 802D's. Mind you, I would never have a system without ALL 6 of the speakers, but the choice of 803S' or 800Ds and wait, I woud still "X" the choice for the 800D's.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Rebelman;

Just print this and put it on your drawing... 800Ds not only sound better than the 802Ds, they look better : )

Just kidding. I upgraded to the 800D from 802Ns. I could have gone the 802D route, however I knew I would have always thought "what would the 800Ds been like?" If you have the funds, go fo the 800Ds then save up for a sub if needed. Once you get the 800Ds, you'll never look back.

[DrJRapp]

Once you get the 800Ds, you'll never look back.

Also, there is noplace else to go, except maybe to snails.

[PavelL]

Rebelman;

Just print this and put it on your drawing... 800Ds not only sound better than the 802Ds, they look better : )

Just kidding. I upgraded to the 800D from 802Ns. I could have gone the 802D route, however I knew I would have always thought "what would the 800Ds been like?" If you have the funds, go fo the 800Ds then save up for a sub if needed. Once you get the 800Ds, you'll never look back.

By the way how do you like that plynth on 800Ds? Do you like how it looks with toe-in?

[SRT-10 Viper]

I really like the way the plynth looks to me even with toe-in.

[PavelL]

I really like the way the plynth looks to me even with toe-in.

Thanks for your relpy! ;x( Then I might consider an upgrade too.

[misterdoggy]

Rebelman;

Just print this and put it on your drawing... 800Ds not only sound better than the 802Ds, they look better : )

Just kidding. I upgraded to the 800D from 802Ns. I could have gone the 802D route, however I knew I would have always thought "what would the 800Ds been like?" If you have the funds, go fo the 800Ds then save up for a sub if needed. Once you get the 800Ds, you'll never look back.

Yeah Baby....... If you've got the $$ go for 5 800D's or 5 802D's

I'm in agreement there... Its all a question of $$ ain't it... and priorities

[RebelMan]

Rebelman;

Just print this and put it on your drawing... 800Ds not only sound better than the 802Ds, they look better : )

Just kidding. I upgraded to the 800D from 802Ns. I could have gone the 802D route, however I knew I would have always thought "what would the 800Ds been like?" If you have the funds, go fo the 800Ds then save up for a sub if needed. Once you get the 800Ds, you'll never look back.

The 800D's have always been my dream speakers! They simply look stunning. I never seriously considered them before because of domestic reasons and the "Queen" wouldn't have them in our main room. A dedicated room is the only excuse I need now. I have already made good with her at Christmas!

Thanks for the "pin-up"... I mean closeup. :lol:

[RobP]

James, if those are your dream speakers and you have the chance to get them then do it, you can deal with the space and wife issues after you get them. :twisted: That should be one hell of a setup after its done. :T