Center Channel Conspiracy?

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  • RebelMan
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 3139

    #46
    Originally posted by JKalman
    Where I come from has no place in this argument, it is pure fallacy.
    Glad to see you have a sense of humor. :lol:


    Nah, according to scientific validation, it isn't all that important if you are the only person watching (assuming you aren't a schmuck who likes to watch movies off center just to argue the point).
    Hmm, "isn't all that important" doesn't sound so reassuring. It also seems the professionals at Skywalker Sound are unconvinced by the "scientific validation" you refer too.



    All this section and its quote did was prove me right, i.e. - you can use two speakers instead of three in the front and Dolby is jumping on that bandwagon to produce their own proprietary methods of implementing it. A lot of processors already allow you to run virtual surround, like my SP1.7. Dolby is just trying to make more money by developing their own version and mass-selling it to manufacturers of audio equipment.
    It actually proves that you took the message out of context. Dolby states... "More and more consumers are eager to recreate the movie theatre surround sound experience in their homes, but the multispeaker home theater systems necessary to do this are not always practical or affordable in many applications that would benefit from surround sound.

    Dolby® Virtual Speaker technology is a practical new alternative to multispeaker systems. Using a new-generation technique, it provides virtual multichannel surround sound with just two stereo speakers. It transforms such activities as watching TV and movies, or listening to music, into an accurate, natural, and realistic surround sound experience, without the added expense and complexity of a traditional surround system."

    The Dolby Virtual Speaker Technology system and others like it are intended to simulate the effects of real discrete speakers. As I previously stated and highlighted above, the technology is intended for a specific demographic. People that have limited choices are more apt to take some form of surround like the Dolby virtual surround than to have no surround at all.


    Actually, for every speaker you add you raise the dB a little (around 2-3 dB I believe). At the level of most speakers' sensitivities, that is negligible, since most are around 85-93 dB. You would need at least 10 times the current dB level in order to achieve what would be a doubling of sound level to the human ear, meanwhile you only gain 3 dB every time you double the power. The sound gain is nominal in consideration of how high the sensitivity places the dB level to begin with. "Less demands" though, not true. You are forgetting that more power in one box means more heat, which is probably one of the most dangerous things for an amplifier. If using a multi-channel amp you will run hotter or sacrifice overall WPC. If using separate amps, you spend more money. As far as "additional detail and realism" that is subjective bologna.
    There are far too many variables to draw any specific conclusions at this juncture. Nonetheless, I will indulge you with the following example that demontrates why three speakers are more efficient than two...

    Lets assume a three channel amplifier is delivering 50 wpc into three speakers. The 23dBW (17dBW +3 +3) would equate to a total of 150 watts consumed by all three speakers. If one of the three channels was disabled the other two channels would need to deliver 100 wpc each in order to deliver the same 23dBW (20dBW +3) of power equating to a total of 200 watts consumed. As you can see, in this over simplified example, that three channels driven is potentially less taxing than two.

    Furthermore, I said that any practical measurements would probably be negligible. It also goes to show that we hear differently. I suppose the perfect score I received on my recent hearing test was just bolona too. By the way, a 10dB increase would deliver a doubling of perceived sound not 10 times the current dB level.


    While I am amused by your sarcasm, it doesn't help your arguments. You have yet to prove anything of substance. And, for the record, I have demoed 800 series speakers with an equivalent center, at the store where I bought my speakers. It isn't much of a difference unless you sit off center, just have to turn it up a little more to achieve the same SPL. Fallacies don't win arguments either way. Even if I had never heard 800's with a well matched center (which I have), it doesn't diminish my arguments.
    I successfully proved that some people excel on convincing themselves that a center channel is unnecessary. LOL :lol:


    I'll end with a quote from a text used at Columbia University for one of their Music Signal Processing classes (Total Recording, David Moulton) and my response to it:

    ...

    Unless your head is bigger than 16 inches, I think you should be fine without a center channel if you are watching movies alone 99% of the time. This has been my point all along, and it has yet to be proven incorrect, and it is validated by esteemed sources.
    Perhaps in theory but not in practice. Still you don't sound so convinced. Not to worry though, Dolby Labs is catering to your demographic.
    Last edited by RebelMan; 26 November 2005, 02:21 Saturday.
    "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

    Comment

    • JKalman
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 708

      #47
      Originally posted by RebelMan
      Glad to see you have a sense of humor. :lol:


      Hmm, "isn't all that important" doesn't sound so reassuring. It also seems the professionals at Skywalker Sound are unconvinced by the "scientific validation" you refer too.



      It actually proves that you took the message out of context. Dolby states... "More and more consumers are eager to recreate the movie theatre surround sound experience in their homes, but the multispeaker home theater systems necessary to do this are not always practical or affordable in many applications that would benefit from surround sound.

      Dolby® Virtual Speaker technology is a practical new alternative to multispeaker systems. Using a new-generation technique, it provides virtual multichannel surround sound with just two stereo speakers. It transforms such activities as watching TV and movies, or listening to music, into an accurate, natural, and realistic surround sound experience, without the added expense and complexity of a traditional surround system."

      The Dolby Virtual Speaker Technology system and others like it are intended to simulate the effects of real discrete speakers. As I previously stated and highlighted above, the technology is intended for a specific demographic. People that have limited choices are more apt to take some form of surround like the Dolby virtual surround than to have no surround at all.


      There are far too many variables to draw any reasonable conclusions at this juncture. For instance...

      Lets assume a three channel amplifier is delivering 50 wpc into three speakers. The 23dBW (17dBW +3 +3) would equate to a total of 150 watts consumed by all three speakers. If one of the three channels was disabled the other two channels would need to deliver 100 wpc each in order to deliver the same 23dBW (20dBW +3) of power equating to a total of 200 watts consumed. As you can see, in this over simplified example, that three channels driven is potentially less taxing than two.

      Furthermore, I said that any practical measurements would probably be negligible. It also goes to show that we hear differently. I suppose the perfect score I received on my recent hearing test was just bolona too. By the way, a 10dB increase would deliver a doubling of perceived sound not 10 times the current dB level.


      I successfully proved that some people excel on convincing themselves that a center channel is unnecessary. LOL :lol:


      Perhaps in theory but not in practice. Still you don't sound so convinced. Not to worry though, Dolby Labs is catering to your demographic.
      Yes sorry about the dB mix-up, it is 10 dB to double sound level to human hearing. As for the rest I am correct and you have yet to prove anything. Sorry pal. Until you manage to make your arguments more concrete all you have succeeded at is vapors.


      Originally posted by RebelMan
      Perhaps in theory but not in practice. Still you don't sound so convinced. Not to worry though, Dolby Labs is catering to your demographic.
      Grow up and make an argument. ;P
      Last edited by JKalman; 26 November 2005, 10:39 Saturday. Reason: Forum wouldn't let me edit last night, when I was trying to take the insult out...

      Comment

      • JKalman
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2005
        • 708

        #48
        Unless you make a real argument, I'm done and considering myself the winner. So far you haven't been able to come up to bat. You just heckle from the sidelines.

        Comment

        • RebelMan
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Mar 2005
          • 3139

          #49
          I've stated my case and backed it up. It's your poragative to take it or leave it.
          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

          Comment

          • RobP
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 4747

            #50
            Jkalman,
            This forum is a free exchange of ideas meant to be informative and enjoyable for all of its members, not some fiery rock that you stand upon wielding your sword of self importance, striking down any foe who dares to challenge your kingdom of thought.
            Robert P. 8)

            AKA "Soundgravy"

            Comment

            • misterdoggy
              Super Senior Member
              • May 2005
              • 1418

              #51
              Jkalman,

              I have to agree with other members. Its not about "winning". Its about exchanging ideas in a "constructive way".

              If you call someone a "pathetic half wit", it only makes you look bad ? Calling people names doesn't win the point.

              If I read between the lines when you said you hadn't decided against a center channel, then I take it you open to the idea of it. Not only that, I would bet $$ that once you had a center channel, you would jump sides, and fight just as fiercely for it.

              I got a feeling its just your nature.

              I'm sorry I just can't accpet the opinion of someone who hasn't experimented with both. Its actually ridiculous.

              Its all about $$ and not putting the cash on the table for the center channel and that's it. And then trying to justify it as an intellectual.

              But it don't fly.

              Comment

              • JKalman
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 708

                #52
                Originally posted by misterdoggy
                Jkalman,

                I have to agree with other members. Its not about "winning". Its about exchanging ideas in a "constructive way".

                If you call someone a "pathetic half wit", it only makes you look bad ? Calling people names doesn't win the point.

                If I read between the lines when you said you hadn't decided against a center channel, then I take it you open to the idea of it. Not only that, I would bet $$ that once you had a center channel, you would jump sides, and fight just as fiercely for it.

                I got a feeling its just your nature.

                I'm sorry I just can't accpet the opinion of someone who hasn't experimented with both. Its actually ridiculous.

                Its all about $$ and not putting the cash on the table for the center channel and that's it. And then trying to justify it as an intellectual.

                But it don't fly.
                Yeah, right after I posted it last night I tried to change it, but for some reason the forum was malfunctioning and wouldn't let me... It is unfortunate and I apologize. I guess I will have to edit everything before I post from now on since the behavior of this fora program is inconsistant. I used to be able to spend a few minutes after an initial post editing the content of my posts.

                I have tried both by the way. And as far as arguing goes, I don't care which side is right or wrong, or which side wins. I like to argue points. I could easily take the other side and argue it as well. My issue is more with the lack of proof for the argument on the other side. I tried to pressure him into finding some proof by considering myself the winner.

                Comment

                • george_k
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 342

                  #53
                  misterdoggy

                  I'm sorry I just can't accpet the opinion of someone who hasn't experimented with both. Its actually ridiculous.
                  A similar statement can be made about those who praise the use of a center channel. It's really hard to believe that a center channel will provide THAT much more (if any) in terms of marginal improvement...why? I mean, had someone just dropped $2000 (or more) on a center channel and performed a/b testing (on-axis) your brain would expect you to hear an improvement and you may end up doing so (take for instance those who advocate the use of exotic cables). Audio is such a subjective hobby that at times I'll even question the opinions of others whom I consider knowledgeable in this area. To some degree, it's just human nature that once a decision has been made (to buy or not to buy) that we follow through and adjust our beliefs to support the choice we made.

                  I know this is a controversial point to bring up but what it does say is: I've setup my system in such a way that when I sit on-axis the movie dialog comes out clear and coherent so I'm happy and don't feel compelled to purchase a center channel at this moment in time, off-axis listening is a whole different ball-game. Others on the other hand support the use of a center channel regardless of seating position.

                  The point is that dialog is still coming out in either scenario, and for myself the dialog is already clear and coherent, will the use of a center channel make me hear "...use the force Luke" that much better than I already can? It's hard to accept such a generalized comment as "the center channel is the most important speaker" without further discussing it.

                  Comment

                  • tdiciple
                    Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 59

                    #54
                    george K,

                    I have tried both using CC channel and without using CC channel.

                    For on Axis, there is a difference. With The CC channel the sounds becomes clearer and it is coming from the middle of the screeen. I have an A/B comparison and I definitely keeping my CC channel.

                    For off Axis, it is even more crucial to use the CC channel.

                    The fact of the matter is, unless you are living by yourself, it is hard to satisfy your family or whoever watching with you with a good HT system without having a CC channel. How many people can you cramp to sit precisely in the middle??

                    Fred

                    Comment

                    • misterdoggy
                      Super Senior Member
                      • May 2005
                      • 1418

                      #55
                      Originally posted by george_k
                      misterdoggy
                      A similar statement can be made about those who praise the use of a center channel. It's really hard to believe that a center channel will provide THAT much more (if any) in terms of marginal improvement...why?

                      To some degree, it's just human nature that once a decision has been made (to buy or not to buy) that we follow through and adjust our beliefs to support the choice we made.
                      George_K

                      You are right there. You've just put down $4000 smackers on a HTM2D and my brain is saying "you've made the decision and it sounds better or it better sound better !"

                      Psychologically I'm influenced, but also Intellectually I am convinced that the x's and 1's destined for the center channel are particular to the center channel and "bridging the gap" is like DPLII instead of DTS. It works, Luke still is using the force, but its still 4.1 not 5.1.

                      I've spoken to quite a few tech people who work not in sales, but on the cutting edge at B&W laboratories (UK), and feel the opinions I get are unbiased and honest, and the MOST IMPORTANT SPEAKER is the CENTER according to their research. Which one you pick is like anything else in your stereo, it can be a strong LINK or it can be a weak LINK.

                      Like I said. In a perfect world it would all be 802D's. Who would complain ?

                      Comment

                      • SRT-10 Viper
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 253

                        #56
                        Or all 800Ds

                        Aussie Geoff here - ;x( way to go...

                        Comment

                        • misterdoggy
                          Super Senior Member
                          • May 2005
                          • 1418

                          #57
                          Yeah ALL 800D's bi-amped !! :T

                          Comment

                          • PavelL
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 204

                            #58
                            Originally posted by misterdoggy
                            Yeah ALL 800D's bi-amped !! :T
                            Now you have me convinced. What do we do with the "between the lines" issue of $$$? BUT the question of wether a HT with a center channel /inferior in quality to the fronts/ is better than a HT WITHOUT a center channel remains unanswered.

                            Comment

                            • csuzor
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 413

                              #59
                              Originally posted by PavelL
                              Now you have me convinced. What do we do with the "between the lines" issue of $$$? BUT the question of wether a HT with a center channel /inferior in quality to the fronts/ is better than a HT WITHOUT a center channel remains unanswered.
                              Yes, correct question, but unanswerable with talking specific speaker options.

                              My attempt:
                              This original topic: HT with 802D will sound better with HTM2D than without.
                              My situation: HT with 703 will sound better without center than with HTM7, but with the 704 the HTM7 can be OK.

                              You're right, you need an "almost matching" center speaker, or a better speaker, otherwise the loss in clarity from the center does not compensate increase in clarity from a point source voice.

                              If anyone is not convinced that a true (correctly setup) center channel sounds better a stereo image of the center channel, then... I dont know what to say. Does anyone still think that?

                              Comment

                              • RebelMan
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 3139

                                #60
                                Originally posted by csuzor
                                Anyone know the history of the center channel for movies? Who did it first, what were their impressions?
                                csuzor, Dr. Fletcher of Bell Labs was first to demonstrated stereo with a center channel in 1933. Stereo is the latin derivative for "solid" or three-dimensional, not two-channels as most people today would incorrectly assume. The history on sound suggests that the center channel was born out of Dr. Fletchers work and continued with Western Electric in the forties and Fox in the fifties. It wasn't until the late seveties when Dolby introduced sound matrixing and noise reduction schemes with movies like StarWars that surround-sound started to gain popularity in cinemas.

                                Truth be told there is no scientific proof relating to the use of the center channel in any arrangement, only observable subjectivism. I have conducted countless hours testing my setup with and without the use of a center on and off-axis. I have concluded that proper matching AND placement AND configuration is crucial, and a center identical to the L/R speaker is ideal. Divergence from the ideal places less importance on a discrete center and more on a phantom center for on-axis listeners. Off-axis listeners are still best served with a dedicated center but matching can be less critical. These are my observable opinions and are shared by many other respectable critics.

                                I agree with misterdoggy in that the center channel is the most important channel in home theater whether one is on or off-axis. Micro and macro dynamics played critical roles in my analysis in both cases. However, had the on-axis issue been about value, one may find it much harder to justify the additional expense for a discrete channel to achieve only moderate gains.


                                Originally posted by csuzor
                                If anyone is not convinced that a true (correctly setup) center channel sounds better a stereo image of the center channel, then... I dont know what to say. Does anyone still think that?
                                I am convinced!

                                Where does this leave us with the HTM1D (Marlan mounted FST) and the HTM2D (cabinet mounted FST)? Perhaps the difference is insignificant?
                                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                Comment

                                • RebelMan
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Mar 2005
                                  • 3139

                                  #61
                                  Originally posted by PavelL
                                  Now you have me convinced. What do we do with the "between the lines" issue of $$$? BUT the question of wether a HT with a center channel /inferior in quality to the fronts/ is better than a HT WITHOUT a center channel remains unanswered.
                                  This is because it is a subjective question. You have already witnessed two different people give two different answers. Most will say you need a discrete center and some will say otherwise. If you believe what the majority has to say then add one to your system.

                                  While I found a phantom center created a bit more spaciousness it seemed less believable. Furthermore, the presence of detail was less pronounced without the use of a center. But be wary, a dedicated center deserves proper integration to achieve the desired results.
                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                  Comment

                                  • misterdoggy
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 1418

                                    #62
                                    Another important point not to forget is how the film was originally mixed. If it was a 2.0 then its going to be processed in your DPLII.

                                    If the engineers are sitting directing those x's and 1's to the center channel and in their mixing studio there is a center channel, then don't we really want to create the studio in our home.

                                    With regard to whether or not an inferior center channel is worth it or not depends on "how" inferior. I mean if its completely mismatched, then any multi speaker system should be "off". I have 802d's and an htm2d which all have the diamond tweeter and the height of that tweeter is within 6 inches the same on all 3. So that matches up pretty good. I am happy.

                                    However, If you mismatch speakers anywhere in the combination its not the "ideal" world. But we can keep trying (upgrades) to get as close as possible in matching "timbre". Ideally we should all have 5 800D's. Wouldn't that be nice.

                                    Comment

                                    • Ryx
                                      Member
                                      • Oct 2005
                                      • 76

                                      #63
                                      Originally posted by misterdoggy
                                      However, If you mismatch speakers anywhere in the combination its not the "ideal" world. But we can keep trying (upgrades) to get as close as possible in matching "timbre". Ideally we should all have 5 800D's. Wouldn't that be nice.
                                      5 800D's with consecutive serial#s, or maybe 7 800D's :E

                                      lol

                                      Comment

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