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Last edited by Kent Turb0; 16 June 2018, 21:12 Saturday. -
I auditioned the PV1 a few months back. When I asked about the pricing in Australia (PV1 A$2200, ASW675 A$2500) I was told that it was due to its Chinese manufacture. As far as I know all other B&Ws are made in England - eg my 705 and HTM7. I guess the PV1 is just another product of our global economy.
Do you like your PV1?. I think it looks great and I love some of the engineering that went into it. I wanted to use it for HT and stereo as my system has to be a jack of all trades. I found the sound from the PV1 very clean but I did not like the compromises when it came to hooking it up. I also found that if I used the high level connections I had to turn the thing up higher than I liked. I ended up with the Rel Strata 5 which which I am very happy with.Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
Siamese :evil: :twisted: -
Well the PV1 doesn't exactly star against the REL Storm 5 in this review:
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I to was very very upset to see my FPMs said made in China on the side of the box. Its one thing to send things to china to be made because of cheap labour, but to then charge massize amounts for high end products and pass no savings down to the customer! especially from a company that prides itself on "made in england'.
I wrote a letter to B&W and they said all the drivers etc were made in England but the cabinets/framing were done in China. I still feel cheated. No offense to the chinese but people dont outsource work to them becuase they are known for quality....its becuase of cheap laubour.
WHen it comes to "high end" it really takes away from the precieved value of the brand to have it made in coutries outside the origan of the designers.
As soon as BMW tries to send me a car from Mexico I will stop buying from them, regardless of the quality control.Comment
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I think Proceed and Revel had products produced in China too.Comment
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I think you will find anything that doesn't require "finishing" work will be assembled in China nowaday... The parts you are quoting are "premanufactured" pieces that are molded anyways so it can't be tweaked afterwards anyways...
I know it feels like a jib but if someone is assembling premanufactured pieces all day regardless where they are, they:
a) are not going to be very diligent about it
b) are going to be pretty good at it as well.
By the way... The bulk of left hand drive BMWs are assembled in Mexico and South Africa assembles 45% of the right had drive ones (just Google "BMW Mexico plant")... I think you will be hard pressed to find a larger "high end" manufacturer that doesn't utilize "cheap labour" in order to stay competative.Comment
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Kent....I have the PV1 as well... Your profile says Fullerton CA. Is that in the 626 area code?Comment
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I have a 704s and HTM7 with it. Oh...I'm just thought that you owned the PV1 as well, and maybe I can hear how it sounds in your setup.Comment
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I don't think it matters where something is made as long as the quality control is high and consistent with the company's products if manufactured in the UK. Although I do admit that I am happy my BMW is made in Germany because it was the first batch while subsequent productions are from South Africa.
Made In Japan wasn't something that people were happy with years ago but no one seems to complain these days - in fact they'll complain if their DVD players or PSPs are not Made In Japan! :TComment
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I pay a premium for my BMW becuase its made in Germany, same with my Miele appliances. I have to admit if they said made in china I would pay the type of dollars they ask. Not to say I wouldn't buy them, I just would pay top dollar. This is exactly the way I feel about my B&W FPMs becuase parts are made in china some of the savings should be passed down to the buyer. You are being charge as if they were made in England, but infact they are not.Originally posted by K.K.
Some countries seem to be better then others when it comes to producing certian products and a certian peice of mind gets purchased if you buy a specialty product from that country. Here are some examples that come to mind.
Germany: Cars, appliances or anything which required meticulous mechanical engineering.
UK: For me when it comes to hifi
Italy: Clothing, shoes
China: Anything I dont care much about and just want to buy cheap.
I dont mean to sound snobby, but like all of you I work hard for my money and lifestyle, and I dont mind paying for a peice of mind as to where something is made. China offers little to no piece of mind.Comment
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Originally posted by Vancouver
The future is going to be extremely difficult for you... Good luck.
oh BTW: Lexicon has it's MC12 board made in China (that's a thirteen thousand dollar Preamp) because they could not get any company in the US to agree to the quality requirements and the yield percentages they required.
The bottom line fact is, on that extremely advanced board, only China could make it properly...
Consider that... as you hack away at Chinese quality
just my 2 centsComment
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maybe the US wasnt the place to look first. Do you know what other countries they tried? I can tell you that a major reason they went to china was because of price...not just quality control. Besides I am not talking one off examples...there are always exceptions to the rule, but that doesnt mean the rule isnt true.Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
I am not hacking away at china, I calling it like it is.
Can anyone tell me they would be happy to find their B&W 800 signature series speakers come in a box that said "Made in China"?Comment
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The 800 series could be made in China easily, it's just not the appropriate thing to do with that product. I've been to the B&W Worthing factory a few times and there is nothing done there that couldn't be done in China...
When and where it's appropriate, B&W uses Chinese manufacturing, such as some of the plastic and machined aluminum stuff as well as some in-wall products.
This is not the end of the world (actually perhaps it is, in some ways?)
The FPM is an expensive speaker to make with a relatively advanced cross-over and a really well made cabinet enclosure. That speaker has no right to sound as good as it does. It is a perfectly engineered product with virtually flawless execution in price performance.
Not to change the subject, that you feel cheated having a portion of your speaker made in China, yet you feel as though you paid top dollar.
I love the FPM and think it’s priced right... Chinese parts and all.
just more 2 centsComment
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You make some good points. I guess my point is purely one of a piece of mind.Originally posted by Andrew M WardComment
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I never quite understood why most people associate (relatively) cheap Chinese labor with poor quality. The Chinese people for the most part are very prideful people and that reflects in most of their products.
I think those that automatically assume that Made in China is a detriment can take a lesson fom the following example of global economy: Last year we bought a grand piano that is labeled Story & Clark (a famous US Piano Company) that is made in Dongbay, China from a design that originated in Europe with a piano company called Nordiska. When we first got it I crawled under, over and thru it looking for shortcuts and defects that I could honestly say would effect the "quality" of the device. I couldn't find any(and I'm pickey as hell!). At the time we were piano shopping I had looked at several known brands (Kawai, Yamaha, Baldwin) that were manufactured in Korea and were so poorly built that they were falling apart on the showroom floor. I also saw some Kawai & Yamaha that were built in Japan that were stellar in quality. The Japanese and Chinese seem to put similar quality into their product, yet the Chinese is priced along the lines of the Korean product which is crap. The moral of this story is: Quality can be built anywhere, and so can crap.Last edited by DrJRapp; 06 September 2005, 07:59 Tuesday.Jerry RappaportComment
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Perhaps I am a little biased since I am a Hong Kong resident (but I am not a Hong Kong Chinese). I am bombarded with so many Made in China stuff that I am immune to it now (although I am careful with foodstuff from China and making sure I don't pay top dollars for fake goods!). I agree that I like the stuff I buy to be made in the country where the company originates from but reality is that this is rare these days.
Your Intel CPU and harddisk drives are probably made in Malaysia although you wouldn't think twice paying top dollars for your computer. A lot of the designer clothing are made in China. Scott-e-vest technology enabled clothes are made in Korea. 90% of DVD players in the world are made in China. Your softwares are likely to be programmed in India by Indian programmers.
Made in a developed country is not a guarantee for quality - just look at the number of space shuttle accidents due to manufacturing faults made in the USA by NASA and its contractors. Or the Hubble telescope mirror being faulty. Or the Audi TT and Mercedes A class having stability problems (i.e. overturning) although probably Made in Gemany. Or the French made Michelin Formula 1 tyres that were not reliable and made a mockery out of this year's US Grand Prix.
We pay top dollars for products that deliver what we want and expect; it feels good if B&W is completely Made in the UK but if your speakers deliver the sound that you paid for, does it matter where it is made in? If it doesn't sound right, then I will complain even if it is made in the UK.
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funny...
Samsung, LG electronics- made in korea, I must say they are pretty good.. last time I checked, samsung DLPTV was more expensive than Toshiba or RCAs...
all the chips/borad/memories in computers- korea/ taiwan/china
Korea/Taiwan = number one manufacturers of LCD/plsama pannels
My 5 year old Apple laptop made in taiwan- works still great with zero problems
my 4 year old Acura still perfect...
even my 8 year old Daewoo microwave still works great...
IBM PC is now own by Chinese...
Hyundai is now manufactuered in Alabama...
My Dad's one month old Audi A8, already rattles here and there
my previous Ford SUUUUXX!
but my 8year old TI-85 still perfect so is 10+ year old Maytag washmachine
There is no basis for "quality = certain coutry" equation any more in this era.
We shouldn't put down any countries based on our own ignorance...
Peace..Comment
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Umm,
That Rotel of yours is Made in China.
And it rocks.Comment
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It does if they were charging top dollar becuase its more expensive to make in the UK, then they outsrouce the product to china and pay a fraction of the price to produce, then in turn charge us the same price as if it was made in England.Originally posted by K.K.
We pay top dollars for products that deliver what we want and expect; it feels good if B&W is completely Made in the UK but if your speakers deliver the sound that you paid for, does it matter where it is made in? If it doesn't sound right, then I will complain even if it is made in the UK.
Will it totally stop me from buying from them? No.
Have they diluted their brand and have I lost a little respect? you bet.
Is Swiss Chocolate as good if its not made in Switzerland? Is it still considered Swiss chocolate?Comment
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Gold is gold no matter what part of the world you are in...
If you take "who puts it together" to such extremes then technically that person fixing the speakers/amp/etc/car is less qualified to put back together your equipment then cheap working in China/Mexico/Malaysia because the cheap worker in china has done it THOUSANDS of times.
Would I want to buy the first produces off the assembly line using "unskilled labour"? Hell no... Would I prefer to the 1000th product off the assembly line in China versus the first test off the assembly line in England?
Maybe if the test one was QA'ed properly.
As an asside... If you look at the skill set required to build speakers... If you used "history" as a judge I would say cabinet making in China was more or an art form then it was in England.Comment
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Originally posted by Sim reality
Unlike gold my example example of speakers and Swiss choclate are made by man. While I agree with you that china has built things 1000 times, that doesn't make them better at it. In the end China does not make the cabinets their way, but B&W tells them how to do it and they do it.
To answer another questiong B&W dosnt have to send their products to China to be made...they do it to save money. Dont get me wrong in that I believe in free enterprise and maing as much money as possible, but I am also sensitive as to what a "Brand" actually means.
In an industry where buyers like us are so concerned with small increments of sound/video quality and spending a relative large amount of money for specific detail and improvements I feel just a little cheated forking over the bucks when considering this particular detail. I am sure im not alone.
This debate can keep going around in circles and all of you are making good points.Comment
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sorry one more thought that just popped into mind. If making things in China is so good why dont companies advertise that things are made there?
I.E. B&W PV1 is even made in CHINA!! :TComment
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Your right... This arguement could go around in circles...
At one time stuff made in Germany and made in Japan were thought to be crap as well... I think this is contraversial not because of the actual product, but the perceptions/prejudices people have on other countries.
I have personally worked on assembly lines when I was younger and untimately unskilled labour is unskilled labour and skilled labour is skilled labour regardless of where you go. I would feel no better that some weed smoking teenager off the london streets build my speakers as the equilivent in China.
But nor would I have a problem with workers in England going to China to train the workers there as opposed to training someone local to England.
I currently work for an international company and I will have to say that intellegence, like stupidity, knows no boundaries...
I personally hope that an audiophile built my speakers but I cannot honestly say if that is more likely in one couontry or another so I wonder how you can.Comment
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Yes yes yes, the same feeling everywhere, we all feel the same. I also want my B&W to be made in UK or my Bosch made in ????. OOPS but then it is your BMW motor car that is made in my country. Reading all the above is a wakeup call for me to on how one should feel about this.
What I can say is that this is global economics, you can not assume that it is unskilled labour, underqualified technicians etc. It is not. We are extremely proud to manufacture a BMW, the staff on the floor is extremely proud, the company is run by highly qualified people, half of them German on top level, perfect quality controll from Germany, but above all we are proud to do it, propably more so than the average German factory worker; and that must shine through in the product.
And above that on the global economy side, its complex, we have to import $ billions in technology/arms/etc from country A or B or C. We look at who invests in us and we reply.
Anyway what I am trying to say is yes, buying a B&W speaker (as I have) I would also assume that it is made in England, ??? but I am now confused in my own mind why we assume that quality is influenced by where a product is made. There are certainly no proof out there that X or Y makes bad products. B&W or BMW just will not stand for it.
PS: I wonder where my new Landrover is made, I know is has a Ford engine.Comment
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I might have some problems if their flagship is made in elsewhere (even in the USA or Japan). I doubt this will ever be the case anyway for the security reason alone.
but FPM PV whatever you guys talk about is very entry "consumer level" gear which I bet sells alot more in quantity than the 800Ds
Do you guys honestly think B&W (or any other companies) will invest billions to build another factory to mass produce their entry level gears?
swiss chocolate has "swiss" in its name and considered as a local specialty produce.
B&W doesn't stand for "british woofers" or requires british water or mad cow (no offense. plz excuse).
I'll surely flip over if "carolina bbq pig pickin' " is somehow produced in Canada
again, like someone else already said, welcome to the era of global economyComment
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The B&W FPM series are not considered "consumer level" gear. They are by no means entry level. I am not just saying that becuase I own them but because you couldnt get into a HT set up for under 5k. Also the the PV1 is near 2k, and is also not only an above average sub, but in a class of its own as fare as design and build. When comparing flat panal speakers the FPM series is considered to be one of if not the best you can get, and ill bet B&W sells less FPM series speakers then they do 800 series.Originally posted by js24
while the initials B&W dont stand for "brittish woofers" some may argue (myself included) that the brand does represent brittish engineering and development.Originally posted by js24Comment
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B&W = engineering and development believe... British I kind of question... I have a friend with "Land Rover" bumper sticker that states "The parts falling off this car are the finest in British Engineering".
All joking aside, if any company sunk as much money and B&W into R&D they would produce as good a speaker regardless of where they are (and some would argue some of the canadian speaker makers already do).
Also "cost" does not nessisarly corrolate with "worth". My company contract me out to US companies for $1000/day but only pays me... Uhm... WAY less then that.
If I was living in South Africa is would cost the company less but they would still charge US companies the same amount. (and in fact they do that as well)
I would be hard pressed to say my colleagues in South Africa are doing an inferior job (some days I would be more tempted to say that about some of my colleagues in the States...) so why should the customer pay less for essentially the same work?
What you have paid for a team of engineers to fight an uphill battle against reflected waves in an limited space from interfering from the primary impulse (IE: resonance/reflections).
Sit back and just marvel at their inginuity.Comment
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Originally posted by Sim reality
no one ever said the British were known for making good cars...But they do have a good history of HiFi development.Comment
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C'mon guys. It's 2005, not 1985. Today brand is all important and country of manufacture is an irrelevance. Manufacturers outsource to whoever can deliver the specified level of quality that their brand demands, at the lowest possible cost. Service level agreements with clearly defined key service indicators (KSIs) are used to ensure that the required level of quality is delivered. Penalties are applied when the KSIs are missed.
All of us in the HTGuide Forum should be delighted with this brave new world because it means (by and large) that we can buy our cherished hi-fi gear at the lowest possible cost.Comment
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You are not alone. Traditionally, manufacturers that prided themselves on product workmanship would not hesitate to mention the place of origin as one reason for consumers to buy their products. When changes in the marketplace and the economy encourages companies to source product development elsewhere, they should be just as forthright about the place of manufacture but you don't see many companies that are.Originally posted by Vancouver
When you get right down to it, outsourcing's only incentive is reduction in costs. If compainies choose to outsource then one would hope that those savings would be passed along to consumers. Whether or not this really happens would be difficult to prove. Needless to say, I am most proud when I can purchase a product that is built from the same geographic location as the company that bore it. :TLast edited by RebelMan; 08 September 2005, 16:13 Thursday."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."Comment
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Interesting comments
I think Globalisation of the market place is nowadays a fact of life.
Actually, I seem to recall that Robert Trump sold B&W to a large multi-national Canadian concern about 2001 or thereabouts - or so I've read - so even B&W, despite that they have two factories in the UK, plus an R&D facility, and a cabinet manufacturing facility in Denmark, could be argued to be Canadian, not British anyway.
But IMHO, it's all semantics really.
Quality is quality, regardless of where it comes from.
I own some v/expensive UK 2 channel audio-kit - Naim-Audio - built in the UK.
I also own a Sony flagship digital amp - made in Japan. The Sony, easily equals and in some areas exceeds the Naim in performance, build, finish, engineering, and sound quality - but Naim zealots neither wish to hear, let alone believe it.
As I say, quality is quality.
Steinway I believe manufacture in Germany (Hamburg) and the USA (New York) Being orginally a German company, which is the better piano? - the German made one, or the USA made one?
Personally I think it makes little difference where anything is made, if the standards of manufacture are similar, or the same.
Certainly in the case of the UK, and with the UK market generally, I think/get the feeling that notions of 'class' and/or superiority is somehow inextricably linked into their psyche; buying on straight up merit is somehow not quite as important as the badge/notions of prestige - quite the converse of what I perceive to be the general case in the US market interestingly. I may be wrong on this, and no offence is intended - my observations are purely from reading various international HiFi/HT forums over the internet.
Best regards
John... 8)Comment
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The power module in the PV1 is not made in China...Originally posted by Vancouver
The percentage of B&W products made in China is practically zero compared to the entire span of the product line... Relax a little bit.Comment
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Just my 2 cents worth as regards China and the goods made there.
Anyhone who thinks that China can't produce first grade stuff of any description has to think again - they make the best that the rest of the world can offer.
However it is also a fact that anyone who thinks that the reason for going to China for these goods is any reason other than that they make it CHEAP ( and can theefore make more profit) has their head up their Ar#@se.Comment
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Personally, I think that people who argue that companies manufacturing products in China without lowering prices is about anything other than greed and trying to boost profits to please the Wall Street types are somehow profiting from this trend themselves. The greedy always defend the greedy.Comment
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Since we are debating B&W being manufactured in China, I am curious to know what models and what manual labour exactly is used in making those speakers.
I was watching the B&W 800 series DVD last night and the whole process seems to be highly automated. The only snips where I actually saw someone handling the speakers are where they attach the mid-range (and presumably the tweeter on top as well) unit onto the main cabinet and polishing the cabinets!
If that's the case, what kind of savings are there? Or is it just the 800 series that's highly automated?
Anyone in the know care to enlighthen me on this?
CheersComment
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