805S + Sub = 803S?

[tboooe]

Hi, I would like to get more bass and more overall body and fullness out of my setup. Currently I have the 805S and I am thinking about either adding a Velodyne dd12 or just upgrading and getting the 803S. Would getting a sub to complement my 805S give me what I am looking for or is the 803S the better solution? Even if I get the 803S will I still need to get a sub? Before anyone says it, I totally intend to listen to the 803S but there is no way for me to A B test the 805S + Sub and 803S at the same time. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts.

[Mark_C.]

No, I don't think you'd get an even performance trade-off. The 803s are much more refined than the 805s. The difference is the FST midrange in the 803 vs. the midrange-bass driver in the 805. I have a set of 804s mated with a Rel Storm III sub. Now that combination, I believe, sounds better than the 803s alone.

[misterdoggy]

No way. 803S = 803S 805s=805s

The 803S can really perform. Its a 3 way speaker system not counting the tweeter. A Sub can go down below the 803S. But the 805S can't give the body, dynamics, forwardness and overall clarity that a 803S can produce. They are big heavy speakers with great sound.

[tboooe]

Mark_C: what are your thoughts on hte 804S bass? What compelled you to get the REL? Supposedly the only difference between the 804 and 803 is the size of the bass drivers.

[Mark_C.]

tboooe:

I simply wanted more bottom end on the N804s. Notice I said Nautilus 804s, not the 804S. I think I'm pretty secure in saying that any differences between 803 and 804 remain with the new series. The Rel blends seamlessly with any two-channel system and certainly improves the entire system by broadening and deepening the sound stage. I compared a set of N803s with the N804s and the Rel in my house for a week more than a year ago and to me the 804s plus the Rel were an improvement over the 803s just by themselves. And, because of various deals I made, the 804s and Storm III were cheaper than the 803s by themselves. My hunch is you won't be able to tell much difference between 803S and 804S except lower bass from the 803S, but you have to audition yourself to decide.

[RebelMan]

tboooe, I have spent a lot of time listening to the 805S, the 804S and the 803S speakers. The 804S and the 803S are noticeably more open than the 805S. Comparatively speaking, the 805S's mid-band range sounds veiled and somewhat closed in. On the low end the 803S's are fuller than the 804S's but both deliver more bass than the 805S does.

One could substitute a subwoofer to fill-in the missing octaves of the 804S's, however, to reproduce stereo properly you will need to employ two of them. I do not engage my solitary subwoofer when listening to my 803S's (in stereo) for this very reason. Popular opinion suggests that the low frequencies produced by subwoofers are not directional but this is not completely true. Furthermore, one subwoofer will lack the tonal balance of two, with respect to first and second order reflections.

If it were me, I would choose the 803S's and add the necessary subwoofers (plural) only if I still felt that something was missing.

By the way, an 805S + subwoofer does not a 803S make... not even close. 8)

[tboooe]

thanks rebelman...i am going to start auditioning the 803 and 804. I think given the size of my listening area (10 x 14 ft) I will stick with the 804. From your listening, how much more bass did the 803S have over the 804S? Is the difference between the two THAT noticeable? If so, what are the major differences?

[RebelMan]

Honestly, the bass difference between the two was noticeable but not really that noticeable. The really noticeable differences were wider dynamics and a more expansive sound-stage.

I attribute a considerable amount of these differences to the overall size and weight of the larger 803S cabinet which is about 50% more dense than the 804S and even the older N803 which was virtually identical in size.

The key to reducing unwanted resonances is to utilize very stiff and dense cabinet materials. The cabinet improvements coupled with the larger bass drivers of the 803S became very clear. It was the acoustical differences overall between the 803S and the 804S that were THAT noticeable.

[jlee]

2 more things to add

1. The 803 and 803s have a slightly larger midrange "cabinet" within the cabinet that more closely approaches the size of the nautilus head on the 802,801,800. This results in slightly clearer midrange than the 804 or 804s.

2. The 803 and 803s bass will be more defined and more harmonically accurate to a lower frequency than the 804 or 804s. The resonant frequency of the cabinet (especially the 803s which weighs almost 100 lbs) will also be lower than the 804 and 804S.

3. On the old series, the 803 was 1dB more efficient than the 804. I think this is actually significant since the amp will not be taxed as much, which MAY result in lower distortion at the volume played = better sound.

[lvhung]

803 is bigger so I think I will give you more open sound
and mmore robust in music and muvoie
I

[weijst]

...One could substitute a subwoofer to fill-in the missing octaves of the 804S's, however, to reproduce stereo properly you will need to employ two of them....

Please tell me: how often do these lower octaves occur in (stereo) music? I'm not a musician, but I remember someone here mentioning there are only a few instruments that go that 'low'.
Offcourse the three points jlee mentioned still count...

[ChrissB]

Even if 805s had an FST midrange adding a sub wont give you the sound of a floorstanding speaker, it will be different. You must not forget that a speaker has not only a given number of drivers but also a crossover that takes control. There is no way IMO, regardless how much you try to match the sub with 805s, to come close to the way a crossover (with plenty of research from a factory team) is working.

[RebelMan]

Please tell me: how often do these lower octaves occur in (stereo) music? I'm not a musician, but I remember someone here mentioning there are only a few instruments that go that 'low'.
Offcourse the three points jlee mentioned still count...

The problem does not lie with the recording of music but with the reproduction of it. The 804S has a low frequency roll-off of -6db at 30 Hz and rapidly decends from there. Most high quality subwoofers are capable of pushing this drop further out, -6db at 15 Hz in the case of my ASW-825. The frequency response of the lower octaves is extended and flattened, when a subwoofer is properly integrated into a system that is configured with an empahsis on music reproduction. jlee simply expounded upon what I summarized earlier in the thread.