Best price one can get from a B&W dealer

[Lovemov]

In US or Canada, what's the dicount one can get from a dealer? I heard 20-30%, but my local dealer is certainly difficult to work with (no competition). And, no internet sales for B&W, am I right?
Thanks.

[krellfan]

I think the standard discount is 10%.

[Eliav]

yep , had the same experience, these dealers are kind of monopolistic, they won't even give you a telephone quote before they actually see you. I got 10% off MSRP, not a penny less. Try to bargain on the loacal sale tax, you may get extra few percent discount.
Good Luck
Eliav

[misterdoggy]

I got more but I can't divulge my sources. I get 20%.

[J the Kop]

I am in Vancouver, BC. I get around 15-20% off.

[RobP]

I got a few dealers down to 45%

[xk8boy]

it depends on what level you're buying at. What I find is that, the higher up you go, the less % discount you'll get. It makes sense, as there are going to fewer purchases on the higher end models. At a minimum, i would expect 5-10%, else walk away.

[Andrew M Ward]

I got a few dealers down to 45%

that's a dealer in the business of going out of business.
45% off is below sheet cost.

[Lovemov]

I am in Vancouver, BC. I get around 15-20% off.

Do you mind share your experience? Intrerestingly, I may buy it in BC..

[KvHagedorn]

I think you folks need to quit whining about price. Most high end dealers don't make even close to what you do if you can afford to think about purchasing 800 series speakers. We get no income but the profit we can make on the things. Installation is a wash. We have to pay for rent, utilities, insurance, salaries, advertising, and making the store look nice and attractive for you fickle consumers who are so used to being pandered to by megacorps. B&W does not use megacorps for its dealers. They yanked the line from smaller dealers who were being bought up by Tweeter because they didn't want some megacorp twisting its arm into producing inferior products in the name of god profit.

Take your damned 10% and be happy. You will have the best speakers in the world to listen to.. think about that and not trying to wring the livelihood out of a small businessman who in most cases will bend over backwards to cater to your well-to-do self.

[SPACEMANRICK]

I managed in Vancouver to get more than 20% off my B&W 804 speakers 2 months ago. If you are interested send me a private message and I will give you more details.

[RobP]

Take your damned 10% and be happy. You will have the best speakers in the world to listen to.. think about that and not trying to wring the livelihood out of a small businessman who in most cases will bend over backwards to cater to your well-to-do self.

Now here is a guy that salesmen love, easy to take money from.

Just rember KVhagedorn, if it wasnt for for the, as you put it "well-to-do-self" you wouldnt have a job.

[RobP]

that's a dealer in the business of going out of business.
45% off is below sheet cost.

The dealer that I bought that stuff from was trying to get out of the high end 800 series at the time, he said in his area that he could not move them. He had a pair of N802's that he priced to me at $4600 and a HTM1 at $1200, both units were new, I took the HTM1, I already had N803's.

There are deals all around, you just have to look.

[misterdoggy]

The dealer that I bought that stuff from was trying to get out of the high end 800 series at the time, he said in his area that he could not move them. He had a pair of N802's that he priced to me at $4600 and a HTM1 at $1200, both units were new, I took the HTM1, I already had N803's.

There are deals all around, you just have to look.

There is always an explanation for an unappropriate amount off. Sounds like the dealer was over-extended and needed to cover funds in the bank and there are not many palces to go to in the speaker room that can render some quick cash.

I mean they don't grow speakers on tree's and to hope for 45% is unrealistic. To have fallen on such good fortune for new speakers (were they new or were they demo'd) was good work.

I get 20% and send my guy lots of business and its all internet in Europe so I am satisfied. I wouldn't want my dealer not to make any money on me or else the relationship wouldn't last

[csuzor]

I get 20% and send my guy lots of business and its all internet in Europe so I am satisfied. I wouldn't want my dealer not to make any money on me or else the relationship wouldn't last

That's a good discount misterdoggy... have you received your 802 yet? It's been a while, hasn't it? Have you heard any of your B&W speakers before your purchase? Did your local dealer propose any discount and/or advice?

There's something reassuring about being able to see the sales guy face to face, and actually listening to the speakers, when talking about decent sums of money, and having him deliver it personally. There's a premium to pay for that. 20% discount on internet (there are some unscrupulous vendors selling on internet), 10-15% in a walk-in shop, that's reasonable discounts. Anything much greater and there's something wrong (with the speakers or the future of the shop). Further problem, B&W are notoriously badly packaged (except maybe high-end with wooden boxes), and UPS-type shipping is risky, lots of bad experiences around.

I buy almost everything on internet, but imo, paying a small premium for a relationship with a local reputable dealer, is worth the cash for B&W. I guess it's about brand loyalty as well, I wouldn't want my local dealer to go out of business.

[bigburner]

Do B&W sell direct in any of the countries that you guys live in?

[Jmac]

hmm

I tend to side with the dealer on this one.

Great products cost, and at the end of the day, one usually gets what one pays for - although not always.

IMV, I'd say the 800 series in particular is a low volume seller, compared to the rest of the range, and as the 'flagship' range, is undoubtedly priced up to or near what they feel the market will bear. That may seem a bit extreme, but otherwise, where do the funds for all the R&D for which B&W is famous come from? Don't forget the whole business stands or falls on the selling of speakers and nothing else.

To be sure, the lower down the rung models, are likely to sell in much higher volumes, and hence one may get a larger margin than say 10% if one is after discount.

Discounting is all well and good, in that in the short term it may appear to benefit the consumer; ultimately however, it also may mean a falling in standards, and who amongst us who would choose B&W speakers wants that?

Additionally, the experienced, knowledgeable, and helpful dealer, who offers guidance and assistance, rather than hard sell/cash & carry, may dissappear as well, and again, who wants that? - certainly I don't.

When I finally made a decision on some new high-end speakers some years back, I took my dealer out to dinner, as well as not asking for any discounts - I worked shift work in those days, and had the dealer back on numerous evenings to 10pm demoing kit - people who work in those stores do have a life as well, and I was immensly happy with the service I received, and despite being on a very average income, more than happy to pay for it. I might add, the price of the dinner has come back to me many times over in the service I have received over the ensuing years.

Finally, if some consumers were more concerned about quality at a fair price, at least some of the workers in the US would still have jobs, rather than the pursuit of the dollar being 'God' driving employment overseas, and putting US citizens on the scrap heap of redundancy.

Just my 2c worth, as usual, YMMV

Best Regards

John.. :-)

[KvHagedorn]

Now here is a guy that salesmen love, easy to take money from.

Just rember KVhagedorn, if it wasnt for for the, as you put it "well-to-do-self" you wouldnt have a job.

I could do any number of things, thank you very much. I like this and do it well.. much like you like being an ass. I don't care how rich you are, if you don't treat people with respect, you are absolutely worthless.

[misterdoggy]

That's a good discount misterdoggy... have you received your 802 yet? It's been a while, hasn't it? Have you heard any of your B&W speakers before your purchase? Did your local dealer propose any discount and/or advice?

There's something reassuring about being able to see the sales guy face to face, and actually listening to the speakers, when talking about decent sums of money, and having him deliver it personally. There's a premium to pay for that. 20% discount on internet (there are some unscrupulous vendors selling on internet), 10-15% in a walk-in shop, that's reasonable discounts.
.

hi Chris
I'm waiting for delivery as we write (I'll let you know about the last delivery) !! Actually I got 23% off. You are right about face to face, but I know these guys and have been doing business for years with them. Any problem and they will take it back and repair it (under guarantee). I've bought the 700's series, Rotel 1098 and a lot of other stuff from them. Some at 25% off. I disagree with the way "B&W packs statement" that In my experience they are very well wrapped, boxed. I go to Geneva which is about 40 minutes away and can listen

[Andrew M Ward]

I could do any number of things, thank you very much. I like this and do it well.. much like you like being an ass. I don't care how rich you are, if you don't treat people with respect, you are absolutely worthless.

Money Money Money...
The root of all evil, no doubt.

All kinds of things motivate all kinds of people. Those individuals who i encounter in my life that are primarily motivated by money are easily controllable and usually fairly boring to spend time with.

money money money... ;x(

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Let's all play nice folks... No insults please. Don't let it become personal.

We have had a good range of opinions posted.... Remember - a deal takes two the buyer and the seller - both need to be happy with the outcome for a long term relationship... And when you want to upgrade, or have a problem - it is the good dealer's support you value. High end audio equipment isn't sold at Walmart...

Geoff

[Andrew M Ward]

Ahhh... The word value...

Hi,

Let's all play nice folks... No insults please. Don't let it become personal.

We have had a good range of opinions posted.... Remember - a deal takes two the buyer and the seller - both need to be happy with the outcome for a long term relationship... And when you want to upgrade, or have a problem - it is the good dealer's support you value. High end audio equipment isn't sold at Walmart...

Geoff

One who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing is what?
Ultimately it's about value. :T

[RobP]

I could do any number of things, thank you very much. I like this and do it well.. much like you like being an ass. I don't care how rich you are, if you don't treat people with respect, you are absolutely worthless.

KV, I am glad that you are happy in what you do and that you claim you do it well. I own and run my own business as well, and in my industry we only can make up to 15% (rarely 20%) on any sale, That is just the way it is, so making money is a challenge, but I would NEVER tell folks to stop whining about price, that would be disrespectful and I would be out of business quick.
That is why I was really suprised and offended by your comment towards people who purchase and support a product that you sell. Most of the people that I see on this forum (I may be wrong here) are average guys like myself, who put their hard earned money towards a hobby that they are passoniate about, we are not all "well-to-do asses" that can drop 30k at one time without batting an eye. We build piece by piece, upgrading when we find great deals. So if we can get a break and save a few bucks, then its a good thing for both the customer and the dealer. A happy customer is a repeat customer, and in the long run, that is what keeps the doors open.

[misterdoggy]

"A man is truly rich when he can appreciate what he has"

[bigburner]

KvHagedorn, I sympathise with your frustration. All of us who have had sales jobs in our lives will have felt the same way at one time or another. I have. However, blaming the customer is not the answer. Every customer wants the best deal that they can get. That's human nature.

It's all about adding value. Unless you're selling something unique that everyone needs - and very few people are that fortunate - then you need to ADD VALUE to what you're selling. One answer can be found in csuzor's post. You might like to have another look at it.

[csuzor]

Some things that make a B&W salesman / buyer relationship work (non-exhaustive list but a good start):
Balanced advice to meet quality Vs financial expectations
Consideration of other HiFi components (current and future)
Consideration of social aspects (the room, the looks, the music)
Correct payment conditions: delayed / staggered payments, discounts, methodology (cash/cheque/card/trade)
Time taken to evaluate all options, and to listen
Availability of demo (with similar components and a studio, or at home)
After-sales delivery (delay, installation assistance), trouble support, and exchange / trade-in for the next purchase

Not many of us will keep the B&W for a very long time, and most of us will be brand-loyal, so this relationship is important. No wonder B&W doesn't promote internet sales.

[Andrew M Ward]

Not to beat this dead horse but...

When someone tells me they are in an industry that works at 10% or 15% I’m guessing they might be selling more than a few "Pair" of those 15% items a year.... No?

Your average B&W dealer sells just a handful of 800 series pairs a year.

An effen grocery store works at 5%
Costco 6%
Notice the line at the check-out counter as well...

quantity is everything, if your average B&W dealer was selling 800's every week, then no problem, bargain away, chisel away, hack away at your dealer for a better deal.

That's not the case, however.

If your dealer said to you, here's your deal 25% off and don't even walk in here again unless you're buying another pair, have a nice day...
see you later...

we might be horrified, but should we be so ?

ask yourself that... as you take up everybody’s time ... and ask for huge discounts on limited distribution items. Good luck and happy trails

just my 2 cents

[zpanky]

A Canadian's perspective:

From what I have seen, you can get a bigger percentage discount in Canada than you could in the US. 20-25 (20 being relatively easy, 25 being somewhat more difficult) in Canada vs 10-15% in the US. However, there is a pricing discrepancy for MSRP on B&W speakers between Canada and the US. In the US, MSRP is $12,000 USD per pair for 802D's. Thats about $15,000CDN (at a bank exchange rate of about 1.25). In Canada, the MSRP is $17,000 CDN. With a discount of 20%, that works out to $13,600. The 10% discount in the US works out to about $13,500.

Also, there is the potential issue of import duties.

[misterdoggy]

There are much more expensive prices on B&W in England France and Germany than Americans pay. I can imagine what Australians and New Zealanders must have to pay. For Europeans just change the $ sign to € and add 25%.

The bottom line is what ever the list price is, the buyer trys to find the best price and buy. The seller has different expenses that affect his cost. Its not just cut and dry he buys it for X and sells it for Y. Some sellers have big overhead ie: presentation rooms, large stock (cash outlay), staff, bank loans etc etc.

You say well he should just make X% above his cost but you MUST add in his overhead. Having said that, if you buy from an Internet seller who has very low overhead and is just "flipping" pieces with his internet store, you might just do better.

But you can't "resent" someone for doing the best they can, all you can do is search elsewhere. EVERYBODY got to pay the piper and HE has got to pay B&W so if you can't afford it, then buy within your means and be reasonable. Or win the lottery then you can buy what you want in life.

[KvHagedorn]

I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to find most of you here are very bright and understand the position an independent A/V retailer is in. You're right.. in NYC it might be different, but here in the styx we are pretty darned heroic to sell the 3 or 4 pair of 800 series we sell per year. We sell much more 600 series and custom, and these guys often need some TLC as well, so it's not some big gravy train like many people seem to think. There are a huge number of things that factor in here, not the least of which is the task of selling flat panel TVs.. these things are not profitable at all.. the Asian companies that make them keep the profit themselves and seem to believe they can be sold online or through Wal-Mart/Best Buy exclusively. Panasonic, for example, will not even deal with any retailer that buys less than $500,000 worth of product per year from them, and other TV companies are moving in the same direction. Buying groups only help you if you are a certain size to begin with, since they charge fees for membership, and you still need to be authorised by the manufacturer. TVs are a much higher demand item than higher end speakers, and you have to be able to satisfy this need since people usually want someone who can install the thing as well. This brings the time factor into play.. we have to spend way too much time with these people who think they deserve it because they just bought a $2599 item.. yet when we paid $2500 for it and have to wait for them to pay their bill and sometimes stiff us for what they see as gouging on the labor.. :roll: It's very difficult to even be in this business because of all this, and don't be surprised to see many if not most of us just go away. Just to give you an idea.. enter any model television in google.. there will be some shady internet folks selling the item for a ridiculously low price. If you are a small dealer, this is at or below what we pay for it. Though the enlightened folks on this board are mostly not like this, Wal-Mart and their ilk (in combination with people who are used to buying computers) have pretty much brainwashed everyone to think about NOTHING but price now.. quality is not even a factor.. especially where most wives are concerned. In smaller communities (under 200,000), it's very tough to make this business work. You can't even compare this business model to some large manufacturing concern or a car dealer or whatever.. and if you think Wal-Mart makes 6% profit, think again. I'll give you a clue.. vertical integration. The products they sell are pretty much manufactured to order for them, and they are made CHEAP. The profit that would be Toshiba's or Panasonic's gets to be all Wal-Mart's.. that's why you see all those weird brands there. And their people lie and tell people that Sony made them.. :evil:

That's all the brainwashed masses are going to wind up with.. Wal-Mart. And what worries me is that same mentality is creeping into the highest-end of audio and such.. just put yourself in my shoes when a guy drives up in a new BMW 760il and actually wants to look at one of the few things we can make some money on.. and expects a gigantic discount because he could buy them used on Audiogon for xxx. Honestly, things are going to eventually become like the USSR.. only Wal-Mart or Brooklyn crooks to buy from and the cheesiest quality that the average moron will put up with.. and whatever price they want to charge. Someone actually said something about B&W dealers being a "monopoly" here. That's the height of moronity. Most products are sold though authorized dealers only.. surely any quality product will be. B&W is a hot item because of quality. If it were not protected from being cheapened like this by internet sales and ebay and such, then it would not even be worth selling.. it would become like flat panel TVs.. and there would be NO dealers like us, period. No one to give a damn when you call wondering about hookup or service. No nice showroom to listen to your speakers in before you buy.. No one but Wal-Mart or Soprano's internet rip-off joint in Brooklyn. Whenever you expect something for nothing, you will wind up with nothing.

[ZX10 Guy]

KvHagedorn,

The people you describe are also the trolls that would go into a B&M like yours, occupy your time with questions, demo equipment you have there so they can get an idea of its performance, and then proceed to go online and order it for a cheaper price. And the kicker is that they don't see any problems in doing this. They think that it's their right to have free local auditions and be able to buy from the low ball internet retailer.

[KvHagedorn]

I suppose the way I was raised I just have a serious problem with bad manners.. especially when the people are smart enough to know better and/or rich enough that they should be cultured enough to never do such a thing.

[caleb]

Has anyone here thought of the customer service aspect of a sale?

I also run my own business, and can tell you that I am not the cheapest in my field for the products that I sell.

I keep my customers because I give the absolute BEST customer service and after sales service around.

You don't get that with E-bay or internet purchases.

There is a price to be paid for quality service so if you want the cheapest deal that's usually what you get - CHEAP price and CHEAP service.

[KvHagedorn]

Well if this works well in your area, that's a good thing! Here, as I said earlier, most people are just zombified out of all reason. Women often hold the checkbook, and many of them often don't think about all this.. not only are they disinterested in electronics to the point of usually not caring about quality, they just want to shop at the LARGEST store out there and automatically think they are getting the best deal this way. I think it's some psychological thing about feeling safe, thinking the company with the most money is the best bet, when it just means they are best at maximizing their profits. That means real customer service is practically nil.

btw, sorry if this sounded misogynistic. There are many women who don't think this way, but there are obviously enough men and women both to have made Wal-Mart and Best Buy the behemoths they are today, and to support many online retailers.

[KvHagedorn]

While what I wrote above is true for many people, there are many who do appreciate the service they get once they get in the door and try us out. You know, I've thought of a few more things we could do to enhance customer service, so perhaps we will get more favorable word of mouth from these folks. Thanks, Caleb and others who have offered their ideas.. this could be a fruitful discussion for all of us.

[RobP]

Kv, After reading more of your post, I have to say that I may have been a little harsh on you, and for that I apologize. Bottom line here is that dealing with retail is a major pain at times, but dont let a few customers who are looking for a free lunch spoil your outlook and change the way you do business, or the way you deal with customers overall. I have seen too many small business owners do this and it ends up hurting them in the end.

[Stevebez]

I have built up a rapport with "my" retailer ... seems much nicer to discuss something with him who is a true aficionado on all that is sound.

Much better than calling up some remote call centre of an e-tailer who don't even know what the product you bought is ...

He gives me 10% - I go home feeling I got a deal - especially given his service and expertise. I would feel really rotten if I walked into his store - as I did - took up an hour of his time on a demo and getting his 2c advice on the products - and then go home and bought from an e-tailer. Not cricket as they say here in the UK.

However - there is a large electronics retail chain in the UK who's service is completely ridiculous and their prices are high. I frankly enjoy going in there viewing what I want and going home to buy on-line. I have no problem punishing these guys... who frankly don't know a PC from a DVD player.

Rgds Steve.

[Eliav]

[I][I][QUOTE=KvHagedorn : "Someone actually said something about B&W dealers being a "monopoly" here. That's the height of moronity]."

With all respect to the educated and detailed article submitted by the honorable gentleman ( a dealer ?), some "morons" had visited other top quality products dealership such as top quality car dealership, top quality furniture dealership and so forth, so that their experience with top quality services is not necessarily confined to B&W speakers..This actually give these "morons" a stronger indication of how B&W marketing is indeed acting as a monopoly and of how B&W dealers have become B&W puppets.

Shopping with other high end brands definitely gives the impression that
B&W wisely keep their authorized dealreship network tightly controlled and limited in order to make sure their products are sold witihin the price limits THEY determine.
the system is built such that dealerships are restricted with their location, discounts,distribution, out of state shipment policies,on- line purchasing and so forth..It is making money and keeping their products under control which makes the system as it is, customer service and care is not the main issue as the respected dealer was trying to imply.

The dealers are not to be balmed for this, their share is practically low to begin with, while the B&W control over sales and prices limits dealer's flexibility with their customers valuable as they may be.

There is no doubt that B&W speakers are top quality products, however, the way these products are sold is defenitely a monopoly, it acts in favor of B&W's price protection and does its utmost to limit customer's freedom to bargain.

Eliav

[ZX10 Guy]

[QUOTE=Eliav][I][I]

."

With all respect to the educated and detailed article submitted by the honorable gentleman ( a dealer ?), some "morons" had visited other top quality products dealership such as top quality car dealership, top quality furniture dealership and so forth, so that their experience with top quality services is not necessarily confined to B&W speakers..This actually give these "morons" a stronger indication of how B&W marketing is indeed acting as a monopoly and of how B&W dealers have become B&W puppets.

Shopping with other high end brands definitely gives the impression that
B&W wisely keep their authorized dealreship network tightly controlled and limited in order to make sure their products are sold witihin the price limits THEY determine.
the system is built such that dealerships are restricted with their location, discounts,distribution, out of state shipment policies,on- line purchasing and so forth..It is making money and keeping their products under control which makes the system as it is, customer service and care is not the main issue as the respected dealer was trying to imply.

The dealers are not to be balmed for this, their share is practically low to begin with, while the B&W control over sales and prices limits dealer's flexibility with their customers valuable as they may be.

There is no doubt that B&W speakers are top quality products, however, the way these products are sold is defenitely a monopoly, it acts in favor of B&W's price protection and does its utmost to limit customer's freedom to bargain.

Eliav

And in a free market system, you're free to move on to another brand if you don't like how a company controls distribution. What you're saying about B&W artificially controlling prices to pad their own pockets is baseless. B&W among other high end manufacturers have a vested interest in keeping their dealers in business. A properly set up retail store costs money. Sales people with a clue cost money. After sales support can cost money. So because you can't bargain down to rock bottom mass market prices makes a company bad? Come on. :roll: Jeff Rowland controls distribution. Thiel controls distribution. Just because B&W has attained a wider higher end market distribution doesn't mean they have to adopt mass market policies. I've established a strong relationship with the two high end dealers I patronize. I bring up a discount and they usually grant me one because I've dumped enough money into both establishments. I'm easy to deal with as I'm not very demanding. I've only rebutted a discount on an item once in the whole time I've been into this hobby. And I left it up to the dealer if he wanted to help me out as I was really stretching to buy this item. If he couldn't come down in price, I would have waited till I can actually AFFORD to buy it. People think dealers should tighten their belts so that they can afford to buy said product.

BTW. I have such a good relationship with the B&W dealer in my area that I've seen the price sheet for what THEY pay for the products. So I KNOW what the mark ups are for the speakers. And even with this knowledge I don't hold it against my dealer to sell me a speaker at or below their cost.

[caleb]

You make an excellent point ZX guy.

With items like B&W you need to build up a relationship with your dealer.

I have bought all my B&W speakers from the same dealer (4x805, HTM2, 4x802, 1x HTM1 and 2x 850) so I have also dumped a load of money into his account.

In return I get a discount that I am happy with but better than that I get a service that includes being able to go and audition cables at home on sale or return and also am able to take speakers home to listen also on sale or return.

Try that at E-bay or other internet sellers.

[dortiz]

I also wonder about those with the big discounts and what speakers they bought. Remember the 802Ds are the new ones and the 802s are disco. All of the dealers were giving 20-45 off on the old series. Thats not a normal scenario though. It will be a while before the D series is discontinued.
Why would any dealer sell a floor model of the new 802Ds? they need to demo them.
I think some folks got great deals on discontinued 800 series. Thats awesome.

[stewfoo]

On this one I side with Kv. I am new to the high end game. I had a great relationship with my B&W dealer in Sacramento (AudioFX),until I moved out of state. I spent a little bit of money with them on my in ceiling speakers and some fpm's for my plasma center. They spent tons of time with me and they REALLY know their S**t. When I moved, I decided to go with a local dealer, who I will not mention, and bought my gear at about 15% or so off. It was the biggest mistake ever. I should have bought from AudioFX at full price. It seems that rather than having a resource to go back to for solid info, i was forced to find all of you degenerates. hahha Seriously, my local B&W/Rel/Rotel dealer is worthless in terms of information. It seems like I am dealing with a Circuit City level knowledge base. You typically get what you pay for. As a newcomer, I would have paid the extra money to have a truly audiophile-level resource rather than a Huge B&W flea market
Stew

[parrys]

Hate to revive this old thread but I am interested to find out as well. Can someone share their contacts with me? Anywhere in North America /canada. Please PM me. Thanks

[Clepto]

I've found the best deals to be had when my dealer does their annual demo sale, etc. I've gotten brand new, never been opened gear (B&W, Rotel) for demo pricing (@28% off) because they gave me demo pricing on new units... I probably got lucky there though.

[parrys]

Care to share the info?