Upgrade from 804 to 803s

[gerardhn]

I upgraded from the old 804 to 803s new type.
I tested the following speakers in advance:
-804s. [4000 euro] Recognizable to me as 804 owner. Certainly improved over the old one but for me not worth upgrading.
-803s. [5500 euro] Wow. Enormous improvement in everything. I had the climax for every audiophile: I heard new -never heard before- voices in my standard test cd's. So I knew I had to upgrade..
-803d. [8000 euro] Goes slightly furthur where s version stopped. Certainly better but more expensive and also a big boy in your room.

When I found an advertisement of a pair of "second hand" 803s I bought them. Very happy owner. Worth every euro I payed. Every CD in my collection brings new details compared to the old 804. I think that's the ultimate fun.
greetings
Gerard

[sikoniko]

After hearing the 802d's, I didnt really care for the 803d's. I wish a local dealer would stock the 803s for me to hear.

[misterdoggy]

Thats great Gerardhn, Bravo on finding a used pair of 803s'. After all they just came out so that must be hardly used. Where are you located ?

[gerardhn]

Misterdoggy,
Iám from the Netherlands. I found a pair of used 803s at our dutch hifi site with a "for sale page". There were 6 weeks old. I bought them from a guy in Amsterdam, who suddenly needed cash.
At the same hifi site I offered my old 804's. They were sold within one week!. During demo for the new owner...I thought Iám glad I sell those 804's. At the end I paid 2200 euro netto for my upgrade.

[misterdoggy]

Gerardhn
Good deal. Im gonna sell my htm3s which is only 3 weeks old and get a htm2d in its place. Maybe `I should list in the Netherlands. Sounds like an active marketplace.

[mr_m687]

Gerardhn, I just bought a new pair of the 804S I never listened to the 803S because my dealer told me they sound the same as the 804S and I shouldn't waste my money on the 803S. Could you tell me what the difference was you noticed between the two? Also what was the difference between your old 804's and the new 804S?

[nyny]

My dealer, who is a very knowledgeable guy, also indicated that the 804S and the 803S sound the same (except in the bass region). I ended up purchasing a pair of 804S after conducting extensive comparison between the 804S and the 803S; with Wadia 302 hooked up directly to JRDG 201 Mono. Here is my observation:

My listening sessions definitely confirmed my dealer's comment: I find them to sound the same except in the lower range. The 803S has a slightly lower and tighter bass; but 804S is no slouch in the bass department either. Other than that, the mids and the highs between the two really do not sound different to me.

I would have gotten the 803S if it's a smaller in size. I just think the 804S look much better than the 803S and has similar sound quality, so i went with them. I totally enjoy listening to the 804S (driven by JRDG Concerto Integrated).

[gerardhn]

Guys with the 804s types: off course be happy with it! But after listening I agreed with my dealer who said: B&W is not crazy, every more expensive speaker is better! I stopped auditioning at 803d. The dealer said: if you go to the next listening room with 802d it sounds better than 803d..but it cost 12.000 euro.
The answer to the questions above: the new 804 type is more open, more 3 dimensional than the old 804. But 803 defeats 804 in all aspects..bass (evident because of the drivers] but also ..midd ..and high. How this is possible ??? I dont know. Maybe, i say may be, it is explained because of the obvious explanation that the 804 has "work" to get bass and bass drums out. [which they do not really do to be honest]. The 803 has a big sound stage, the 804 has this much much less. When I listened to Red Hot Chili Peppers [heavy stuff] the sound stage with 804 is maybe total, say undistinguishable in the mids where voices and guitars are, with 803 those ugly pepper guys become individual simple instrumentalists. So also in the Kevlar speaker. SO dont think 803 is like 804 with somewhat more bass. Please believe me you are fooling yourself, or you didnot do a complete research. I know for myself that the 802 is a better speaker. Iám not telling stories to myself that it is an 803 with a jubox design. I wait untill they become affordable on the second hand market...

[RebelMan]

I also conducted extensive listening tests between the 804S and the 803S before making my decision to go with the latter. While I found the 803S to be fuller and more open than the 804S the improvements were not commensurate with the increase in price. However, all else being equal the 803S is the better speaker.

I would have gotten the 803S if it's a smaller in size. I just think the 804S look much better than the 803S and has similar sound quality, so i went with them.

Quite the contratry for me nyny. I bought the 803S because it was bigger in apperances and performance and it looked better when paired with the HTM3S!

[nyny]

Rebelman: Yes, I totally agree with you and gerardhn that 803S is definitely better than the 804S (no arguement there). If I have a bigger room, I would have gone with the 803S as well. The 803S would just look weired in my small NYC apartment..plus, I will never hear the end of it from my wife if I bring home such big speakers into the apartment...haha :roll: You are absolutely right about 804S look out of place with HTM3S - I would have make the same choice you did.

gerardhn: Although I agree that 803S is definitely better than the 804S, I really didn't hear that much of a difference other than in the bass region. Maybe my hearing is not as acute as yours, but I sure am not trying to fool myself to justify my purchase (especially when price is not the decision factor in this case). Let's not assert your opinion onto everyone else by saying that those of us who think 803S is like 804S with somewhat more bass are fooling ourselves...let people go out and listen for themselves. I am sure some people (with acute hearing like yours) will agree with you and others (like myself) wouldn't be able to hear the drastic diffs. I guess whatever floats people's boats is cool, as long as people are enjoying the music they are listening to. :T

[Zoran]

I received my 803S two weeks ago. Getting extensive listening sessions day by day, I am collecting impressions for full personal review here, on HTGuide. Awesome big boys, even driven (for now) by modest Vincent hybrid SV-236 (only 100Wpc). BTW, I own undoubtedly suitable big amp Parasound Halo A21, but have not preamp last two months(sold Rotel combo RC-1090/RB-1080), so the real test comming as the preamp come to my place.

Having not personal home experience with 804 (neither N804 & 804S), I could not assess them correctly. But, listening occasionaly N804 at dealer rooms, I would not vote for them vs much bigger and heavier 803S. This is definitely another league!
IMHO, purchasing 804 might be justified only with lesser available amp, or room dimension limitations. Otherwise, 804 should be far bellow 803S, in almost every aspect.

All my long-term considerations imply that 803S must be the Best Buy purchasing throughout entire 800 Series - given the bulk, bass response and authority (vs 804S and 805S) and price (vs 803D and bigger models).

Zoran, Macedonia

[gerardhn]

Zoran,
you are totally right about anothor league. Remember one thing... you can/must feed them with very expensive electronics and clean electricity. I heard them on big classees and musical fidelties and the 803s speakers will bring those amps to live. But unfortunately those sets are even more expensive than the 803...

[misterdoggy]

I think that there's not going to be night and day differences in the speakers in the ranges up to the 803D, but subtle changes, each one a little better and each one you gotta fork out more Clams. Until you hit the 802D's then there's big differences.

[sikoniko]

After hearing the 802d's I didnt like the 803d's...

I am trying to get my dealer to let me upgrade to the 803s's from my N804's, so I am following this thread close.

[gerardhn]

B&W 803S gegen 803D
STEREO lässt die beiden neuen 803-Modelle von B&W gegeneinander los. Die "D" hat den Diamanthochtöner der größeren Modelle, die "S" muss ohne auskommen, brilliert aber ebenfalls durch spektakulären Fortschritt. Mehr über das Duell der ungleichen Schwestern in der Augustausgabe.

This is the first test of the 803s! In the German magazine stereo. Compared against the D-version. [ uhh i do understand German, neighbour country for me, excuse me]

[Rags]

I used to own 804's and I have heard the 804S as well - the 803S is a significant step up from them. More tangible bass, a larger soundstage and from the old 804's at least, better driver integration.

[K.K.]

I just joined the Club...

I just bought myself a pair of 803s as my birthday present. I initially auditioned the 804s, the new JM Lab 918 and Revel F32 in that order.

I have been using the Celestion C series for about 5 years now mainly started as a surround sound system. Later on, I started to listen to more audio stuff and somehow felt that the Celestion C3s that I used as my front speakers was missing that extra detail somehow. So I started looking...

The 804s was very detailed (or truthful) and great soundstaging. But the bass was disappointing the first time I heard it. Almost none. I brought along a fried who is very much into audiophile stuff and he liked the mid and highs but not the bass. But the timing was very good though. I also auditioned it with the HTM4s as a HT system and with the sub, it sounded great. Although I use two REL sub at home, I wanted to make sure that I can live with the sound without the subs first.

The sales rep (well, actually I audtioned it at the B&W Asia showroom) said that is because since I was testing it for HT as well, the AV room that he let us use apparently didn't have good acoustics for audio. I thought that was strange... and decided to try other speakres elsewhere.

The JMLab Profile 918 is so new that the agent didn't even have the centre speaker in stock. It is suppose to replace the Electra range, which had quite a good following. I therefore had high expectations for this new speaker range and when I listened to it, it didn't sound any better than my Celestions. Very disappointing... perhaps the speakers aren't run in yet but no excuse. Maybe it's the room setup because they had the gigantic Utopia speakers next to them that the agent was not able to move out of the way. I left...

Next was the Revel F32. Very good reviews although I have never heard of this brand, being unfamiliar with American speakers myself. But I liked what I heard. My friend did too (for the price range), and was quite convinced that I will get them because it had good bass, mid and highs. But somehow I didn't hear what I heard from the 804s, the imaging and accuracy. When I put on the Sheffield Drum & Track disc for the drum improvisation tracks, I knew they were missing that magic that I heard in the 804s. I decided to give B&W a second chance...

Having looked at my budget, I was prepared to spend for the 804s and the HTM4s (the surrounds will have to wait). But my friend asked me to try the 803s, just to find out what's the difference. Besides the $$$, I had a concern that my amp will not be able to drive them.

Anyway I asked the B&W guy to arrange for the 803s and 804s again. And when we heard the 803s, I was sold. Everything that I liked in the 804s and with bass. Out goes my budget and I settled for it, no second thought. To be fair, I tried it in a different room that's much more audio friendly. The sales rep put on the 804s again and the bass is there now. But overall, it's still a bit thin especially after I listened to the 803s.

So now I have a pair of 803s in my living room, and still waiting for my HTM3s (double the price of the HTM4s but I think should be a better match for the 803s) to arrive, and quite a bit poorer than what I started off with! First thing my wife commented when she saw the speakers was that they are ugly!!! She thought they were too big compared to the slim Celestion I had. But the second comment was the sound is very good. So we now enjoy our audio much more, trying to pick up all the new sounds and nuances in my CD collection that I never knew existed...

[gostan]

Historically, the 803's (I have N803's) have always had a fuller midrange and deeper bass than the 804's. This is even more noticeable in 2 channel listening comparisons with the 804's and that is why I chose the 803 over the 804.

[gauss]

B&W 803S gegen 803D
STEREO lässt die beiden neuen 803-Modelle von B&W gegeneinander los. Die "D" hat den Diamanthochtöner der größeren Modelle, die "S" muss ohne auskommen, brilliert aber ebenfalls durch spektakulären Fortschritt. Mehr über das Duell der ungleichen Schwestern in der Augustausgabe.

This is the first test of the 803s! In the German magazine stereo. Compared against the D-version. [ uhh i do understand German, neighbour country for me, excuse me]

If you happen to read the full review you are more than welcome to share. I have read the review but my German is not very good. It seems however that they consider the difference to be quite substantial, at least from their concluding judgment (i.e. the points awarded, so popular among HIFI-magazines).

[J the Kop]

Hi all, I am new to this forum. I currently have N804 with all Naim system. I'm thinking to upgrade N804 to 803S. I like N804 but I am looking for an improvment in the bass region. N804 can be bright and not enough bass sometime. My understanding from this forum is that 803s have better bass and mid range.

Is 803s hard to drive? I have naim nap 250.2 (80 watts) Has anyone here tried 803s with Naim amp?

J

[weijst]

... I'm thinking to upgrade N804 to 803S...Is 803s hard to drive? I have naim nap 250.2 (80 watts)...

For your 803's to sing, a more powerfull amp is recommended anyway. If I were you, I'd get this amp first and see what it does with your 804's... If you're not satisfied, you can still get those 803S's...

[K.K.]

I recall that when I first listened to the 804S, the dealer was using a Rotel AV amp that he said was 100w per channel. My friend and I actually played the music rather loudly during the demo and there was hardly any bass.

Thinking about it now, it could have been that the Rotel actually ran out of steam and lost the bass! It sounded fine during the HT demo but since all the bass was handled by the sub, I didn't notice the problem.

I wonder...

[RebelMan]

I recall that when I first listened to the 804S, the dealer was using a Rotel AV amp that he said was 100w per channel. My friend and I actually played the music rather loudly during the demo and there was hardly any bass.

Thinking about it now, it could have been that the Rotel actually ran out of steam and lost the bass! It sounded fine during the HT demo but since all the bass was handled by the sub, I didn't notice the problem.

I wonder...

I would be EXTREMELY cautious about making conclusions like that. The base response from ROTEL is superb in most cases. I would suspect the DSP/bass management settings to be at fault here not the amplifier. When I drive my 803Ss with the ROTEL RSX-1056 in "bypass mode" versus the default DSP settings, there is a HUGE difference in base response. Be wary about those demos!

[J the Kop]

Sounds like 803s may not be easy to drive, I will try to have a demo with my dealer. But Naim amp is biger than it's number. My Nap 250.2 easily drives N804 but I am not so sure with 803s.


J

[K.K.]

I would be EXTREMELY cautious about making conclusions like that. The base response from ROTEL is superb in most cases. I would suspect the DSP/bass management settings to be at fault here not the amplifier. When I drive my 803Ss with the ROTEL RSX-1056 in "bypass mode" versus the default DSP settings, there is a HUGE difference in base response. Be wary about those demos!

That is a good point. I thought that the Rotel would have been in the direct mode like my Denon AV amp that bypasses all processing and bass management. But since I am not familiar with the Rotel, I am sure you're correct on this. Although i would have been very surprised that the dealer made a mistake on this one since they are the B&W showroom for Asia and therefore represents Rotel as well :E