Krell -vse- Classe and B&W 800 Series

[Brahma]

I am in the process of putting together a new Home Theater system.

Seeking comments from anyone who has married the Krell mono-blocks to the 800 series speakers regarding compatablity.

The system will comprise of 3 x Krell 750MCX's driving a pair of 800D's as fronts and a HTM1D centre. 3 x Krell 450MCX's will drive a pair of 802D's and a rear centre 802D for rears. Also adding a pair of ASW875.

So the system should thump nicely, but as I'm not planning on auditioning these relying on my hunch they will be a great combination.

The other possibility is a set of Classe Omega MB's in lieu of the Krell's.

Any suggestions welcome.

[Pieter]

Aren't those 802Ds a little lite for rear duty?

[Brahma]

Well I thought they were about right for balanced theater and 6 channel stereo use.

I see a few on this forum are running the same rears as fronts, but I'll see what other comments come in on the 802D's.

I'm currently running same size rears as the fronts (Jamo / Yamaha gear) but the 802D are as big as my current rears.

[Pieter]

Sorry, Brahma I couldn’t resist. It’s a Gotcha!

Those 802Ds will sound stunning at the back.

[Brahma]

Sorry, Brahma I couldn’t resist. It’s a Gotcha!

Those 802Ds will sound stunning at the back.

Well my first hunch was you were having a joke, but there are some serious audio guys on these forums..

[Pieter]

...but there are some serious audio guys on these forums..

This forum's title, "HT Guide" should be a dead giveaway. The emphasis is on the "HT". What do a bunch of movie nuts know about quality sound!? They think the word "stereo" implies the use of "two" speakers. Lost! The whole lot of them...

[Brahma]

Well Pieter I make no such delineation these days. If it sounds good, it sounds good. 2 speakers or 7.1. Providing you're the type that knows what good sounds like it doesn't matter to me what camp you're from... :T

But what astounds me is people that can't tell the difference between a $200 speaker and a $30k one. Enthusiasts aside, most of the HT market falls into the former category.

[Pieter]

I may manage a first, but I see I’m not going to sneak a second one past you.

Let me avail myself of the opportunity and officially welcome you to the HT Guide.

The speakers and amps you’re considering are a bit rich for my blood, so I’ll wait for the chaps who fish in similar waters to wet nylon/Dacron. Afraid, dragging a line behind a dinghy is not quite the same as wrestling a marlin from the deck of a decent ski-boat. Still fishing, perhaps, but I’m not there when they compare catches.

From the gist of what I’ve read they’ll probably steer you towards the Classe mono-blocks; safe choice.

[NonSense]

Hey Brahma

That's a serious system your looking at! I wouldn't recommend to anyone, regardless of the system level, to bypass the audition phase. Even outstanding individual gear can lack synergy when paired improperly. I would say that Pieter is on the right track, that the Classe would be the safe route if you're not going to give it a listen. You can expect a pretty good match with the Classe. Why else would B&W buy Classe. They wanted to have a matching lineup of electronics to pair with their 800 series speakers.

IMO: Classe/B&W should foot the bill for the audition, if you were to pull the trigger on that line up.

Good Luck

[SRT-10 Viper]

Brahma; I have the 800Ds, 800Ns rear combo and HTM2D (coming)... I can't speak for Krell, but I have the Classe CAM350 Mono's. Great match.. I would recommend you try before you buy the new Classe Delta 400 Mono's too.

[ti33er]

Brahma you must have an outrageous budget (and be single! ) ...not to be a kill-joy but I have heard somewhere that B&W don't recommend 800D's for fronts in a HT setup...I am not quite sure why but I suspect it is something to do with centre channel matching or the 801/800 bass-driver units being a little slow/bottom heavy?

I think that "Igor" set up is pretty much ideal 6.2 with primarily 802 type speakers - http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AZOGrVi1cNE (not to make any waves or dig up old bones but that is a highly desireable set up IMO)

[Brahma]

Thanks guys. Yes I'm aware of Igor's set-up, once I saw it I realised I'm not crazy after all.

The literature from B&B I've seen states the HTM1D suits all the 8D series including 800D's.

I'm confident I've chosen the B&W fitout correctly, the only uncertainty is the Krell's backing them. At this stage it seems I might need to fly 4000k's to hear them.

I'm off to see a rep today for the B&W's so I'll see what comes up.

[Brahma]

Had a nice audition

Just got back from an audition of the 802D's, 875 sub and HTM1D centre. Most impressed especially with the centre.

Now going through some uncertainty about what format to go with, and the best way to proceed. ie 5.1 or 7.1 format.

I'm used to 5.1, and my initial plans were for this, but can see the way of the future is definately 7.1.

Seems rather over kill to contemplate 5 802D's! The room isn't going to be that big.

But I like full range and large rears.

So I'm now wondering if it would come together well with only 2 x 802D's and use a smaller wall/ceiling mounted speaker for rear effects and the middle speakers.

But I don't want a hole in the sound.

Any thoughts on that?

[johan]

Hi Brahma,
Your last suggestion with two smaller speakers for ch6-7 seems like a good setup, but you should definately go with 800D's as fronts. I have N802 with Krell Fpb300cx and I think its a great match. Very smooth yet dynamic sound with a huge soundstage, I would love to hear the Krell with 800's or 801's just to find out how much bass-slam there is in that amp, my 802's certainly wont let me know.

I dont think you can go wrong with theese stuff but of course its preferable to listen first. On the other hand, whatever you listen at in the store will sound pretty different at home. And to borrow 3 x Fpb750Mcx, 2 x 800d's and one HTM1D etc.... whats that? 1000kg?

Anyway good luck and please post a lot of pictures when you get your stuff!!

Regards Johan

[TimL]

Brahma

I run N802's and an HTM1 with a Krell Kav 3250 across the front. The rears are the new 805s's and the surrounds are the new SCMS's, powered by my Denon AVR 3805. Room is 14.5’ X 15’ with that said:

I have had the opportunity to spend several hours listening to the exact same fronts you are considering and the same Krell MCX 750s in a very nice demo room at my dealers.
(30’ X 43’) The surrounds and rears are the B&W Dipoles (the big ones). I don't care much for the Dipole sound so I will not comment on those. However that is the most powerful front end I have ever heard the bass is clean, clear and very powerful from the 800D's but the new HTM1D centre is a true monster with the Krells. No disrespect to the Classe amps as they are also very good. The 800D's do require large room to fully appreciate how they expand the sound stage. I used my own material and I took me awhile to want to listen to my own system again but my room is way to small for the 800D's. The highs are very clear and the mids do not get lost at all with the 800D’s.

As for you question about 5.1 6.1 and 7.1-- I played with all of them in my own room and what I found is the surround sound is much smoother and cleaner in 7.1 even in a small room. 5.1 was more directional and after listening to 7.1 not as pleasant to listen to for long time. 6.1 was a little smoother than 5.1 but not as smooth as 7.1. I switched to 7.1

The real key is the quality of the source material!!

My wife who does not share my love of audio but who is very very understanding said about the new speakers in 7.1—“the sound is like it is all one speaker but yet I can hear each instrument and what speaker it is individually coming from. This is good” She had never really commented before!

I hope this post is not to long and helps you decide on the best course.

[EAmin]

Hi Brahma! You should hook up with Aussie Geoff (our moderator) since you guys are locals --- assuming Perth, Austrailia. I'm sure he'd be able to give you some good recommendations and maybe go with you on a demo. Plus, his upgraditis has been dormant for a while now. He talked about doing 803Ds since last year and I haven't heard anything since. Your set up might be what pushes him to pull the trigger.

Good luck on your purchase.

P.S. Check out MACs. MC501 - Stereophile amp of the year. :T

[Brahma]

EAmin thanks, so Aussie Geoff is from Perth also! Very cool, I'll send him a pm.

Thanks TimL, I had all but decided smaller surrounds and rear affects are the way to go with it. I was looking at the Signature 7NT as in wall mounts for the surrounds. They cross-over at 3.5KHz but handle a bit more power than the SCMS's. Something I will talk to the dealer about.

As for rear affects are you running single or twins? I am contemplating running ceiling mounts (two single driver CCM80's) for two reasons. Asthetics (don't want to detract from the big 802D's) and movie program material doesn't need much for this channel position anyway. What's your thoughts on this?

As to Amps I'm still undecided. After talking to more people the Classe are now leading my choice over the Krells. The original title of this thread should have been Krell -vse- Classe!

Both are obviously excellent products with probably Krell still being the leader out of the two in outright sonic performance, albeit at a cost.

But I've only hear good reports about the Classe CA-M400 MB's but IMO they would still leave the front stage lacking and this was the initial reason for going with Krell. Great for the rear stage though (ie the 802D's in my system). However the new Classe Omega's with nearly twice the output wouldn't.

So where I am presently at is confirming that a combination of Classe Omega's and CA-M400's will sound balanced alongside each other. Providing that checks out OK the AMP selection will look like this:

Classe Omega MB x 3 for fronts stage - 800D's, HTM1D
Classe CA-M400 MB x 2 for rear stage - 802D's
Classe CA-3200 3ch for surrounds / rear affects (Signature 7NT or SCMS) / CCM80

[Aussie Geoff]

Brahma,

Welcome to our forum. You must truly have found heaven on earth (as per your book cover) to be able to afford such a set-up... Enjoy!!!

I have heard the Classe (in the UK at Graham's Hi Fi) and they were awesome with the older Nautilus (the shell ones)... So I know you will love them...

I thoroughly support the 7.1 recommendation from the others...

What I am concerned about though is the level of mismatch you are proposing for the rear sound stage between the 802Ds and the Signature 7NT or SCMS... While for DVD-A and SACD I can see the benefits of such high quality rears (they are only 5.1) my worry is that for movies and Dolby ProLogic IIx the 4 rear speakers are usually best if identically voiced. I can see a real mismatch in both treble and tonal quality between the 802Ds and the 7NT or SCMS... Personally I'd find a way to make them identical. 4 802Ds would be nice but if $ or space is an issue 4 803Ds would (IMO) be better for HT rears that the mix your dealer is contemplating...

I am going to PM you with a very good very senior contact in B&W UK who will be able to advice you properly re your configuration (B&W speakers and Classe). They have similar demo set-ups in their factory for high end visitors and will be able to give you clear advice...

PS - I hope your dealer (presumably Surround Sounds in Nedlands) is giving you a very special price on all this - if it is not in the 15 to 20% off retail range then they aren't looking after you...

Geoff

[Brahma]

Just by way of an update guys, and to report back that my research found the Omega mono-block's are a mismatch with the CA-M400's, so I will be using the Classe CA-M400's all way around.

Decided to change the rears and surrounds to all 802D's, so thanks to all those who provided their input.

Thanks especially Geoff for the contact in B&W

Here is the final order for equipment which I plan to place with the dealer shortly. Still awaiting confirmation of the availability of Classe's disc transport. It should be one mean sounding home theater:

Classe CA-M400 x 7
Front stage - 800D's, HTM1D
Rear surround/effects - 4 x 802D's
Subs - ASW 875 x 2
Classe Omega CDT300 Universal disc transport
Classe SSP-600 Processor
Sony Qualia004 Projector

[bigburner]

"Money can't buy me love" said the Beatles, but Brahma, it sure can buy you a fine hi-hi system!

What are you going to listen to / watch on your new system? Can you give us some examples?

[Brahma]

"Money can't buy me love" said the Beatles, but Brahma, it sure can buy you a fine hi-hi system!

What are you going to listen to / watch on your new system? Can you give us some examples?

Haa

Everything and anything....

[sikoniko]

If you havent bought yet, I say don't buy the speakers you are looking at.

B&W has a new custom theater 800 series coming out next month which uses every bit of technology b&w has researched. it is supposed to be their best of the best.

your dealer should already have info on them.. mine does.

[Brahma]

If you havent bought yet, I say don't buy the speakers you are looking at.

B&W has a new custom theater 800 series coming out next month which uses every bit of technology b&w has researched. it is supposed to be their best of the best.

your dealer should already have info on them.. mine does.

Been speaking to the boffins in the UK about them, got a brochure if you want me to e-mail it to you.

The 'inside' word is the new range is targeted at the US market based around fittment and style trends, and is not an endeavour for improvement in sonic performance.

So I'll stick with my current plans.

[Indytown]

Brahma, are you going to use 7 Omegas or 7 Deltas mono blocks? you might have a typo in your equipment list.

What changed your mind on the Delta series? I have been considering the Deltas myself. I did a little research on their class A operation and have been told that they output around 120 watts of pure class A power of the total 400 watts available which is considerably higher than the last series which I believe may have only delivered around 35 to 40 watts of class A operation.

What did the chaps at B&W tell you?

[Brahma]

Brahma, are you going to use 7 Omegas or 7 Deltas mono blocks? you might have a typo in your equipment list.

What changed your mind on the Delta series? I have been considering the Deltas myself. I did a little research on their class A operation and have been told that they output around 120 watts of pure class A power of the total 400 watts available which is considerably higher than the last series which I believe may have only delivered around 35 to 40 watts of class A operation.

What did the chaps at B&W tell you?

Well good pick-up there on the typo - now corrected (it was a cut and paste and amend job from my other reply).

The info I got from B&W (through Aussie Geoff's contact) was that the older Omega's are a less refined product than the Delta range. Sound wise in his opinion, though they have a tad more grunt, they are not as natural and transparent as the Delta's. But our discsussion was centred around the CA-M400 and big Omega mono-block, I'm not sure that you could infer this applies to the whole range.

My original decision for the Omega's was to drive the 800D's closer to their power handling capabilities - down to 4 ohms the difference between the two amps is 200 Watts. So the Omega's would have got closer to the 1000W capabilities of these speakers.

But I've had a reality check on it and see that it will be plenty loud enough with the CA-M400's. They look nicer too :T

We didn't talk any specifics about the % of class A operation in either amp.

[Aussie Geoff]

Brahma,

Way cool system. Your Surround Sounds Contact will be over the moon - full quota for the month in one order! And they are in the mood for some excellent end of financial year discounts (as a friend of mine found out).

Glad the B&W contact worked out - I've found him great and very down to earth for a senior product guy - he really cares about the sound quality...

Once they have settled in - I'd be high in the queue for a demo for a HT that will be very close to heaven (that's if you are offering)...

Enjoy

Geoff

[js24]

new theater series?
can you guys give us more info?

[jericho]

Yes, I would also like to know about new series, please some more info!

[RNKC]

Wow Brahma - that is one serious system you're considering! Best of luck to ya mate!

Since you're looking at a system of that calibre, have you considered the Nautilus speakers up front instead of the 800D? (By Nautilus I mean the really big ones with the curvy bass horn and alien-looking mids & tweeter.)

As for amps, I'm off to the store on Thursday to audition some stuff by Chord. To be honest, I hadn't really heard much about Chord before but looking at their client list is enough to make one reconsider. Chord amps are used by (to name a few) Lucasfilm, The Royal Opera House at Covent Garden, the BBC, the CBC, EMI, Ray Charles studios ...

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/default.asp

[Aussie Geoff]

JS24,

new theater series?
Can you guys give us more info?

Basically B&W for some time have had a range called the "Custom Installation Series' (try HERE. This has had a range of different technologies (300 series to Nautilus0 for in wall and in celing installation. Last year they demod at some of the US trade shows some really high end models using all Nautilus technology (speakers as large as the 802D etc for in wall mounting). Their was significant demand for this from the market for high end custom fitout HT where they want the speakers to be relatively invisable....

So B&W are about to anounce some new 800 series technology speakers at the top of the tree in the Custom Installation Series... Excellent news if you need that kind of speaker and have the money - otherwise the regular 802Ds will do just fine!!

Geoff

[Aussie Geoff]

RNKC,

Since you're looking at a system of that calibre, have you considered the Nautilus speakers up front instead of the 800D? (By Nautilus I mean the really big ones with the curvy bass horn and alien-looking mids & tweeter.)

You'll be not surprised to know that even though B&W only sell an average of 1 of the Presige Nautilus a week, that they wish to keep this the "top of the tree" for their speakers and right noiw, arguably it is not with the new 800D outperforming it...

So expect an announcment in a little while about the new D series Prestige - basically the black shell like speaker with the diamond tweeter, trick bass drivers etc...

However think of double the 800D in price or more... so they will be REAL slow sellers still...

Geoff

[Brahma]

Guys I attempted to attach the brochure for the new 800 theater series but it is over the file size limit. As I explained before I can e-mail if anyone is interested as I understand that it is a different range to the custom installation series and the brochure isn't out there yet.

Geoff yes with the money I'm spending on this system it makes not much difference to up the ante and go for the Presige Nautilus. But from what I researched there is really no advantage in any regard other than looks, so I'll stick with the 800D's.

And LOL I've been getting the red carpet treatment at Surround Sounds as you'd expect. But I'm not planning to make a purchase for another month or two so will miss any end of year financial opportunities. And of course, it goes without saying, you would be most welcome for a listen.

RNKC I've yet to experience any personal limit with past Hi-fi gear I've owned - I'm blessed with ears and a brain that can find a limit in most gear out there, so going all out for it this time around shouldn't leave me with any complaints for a few years. :lol:

[Vishnu]

Please help shift my consciousness

Brahma, I am being held back from the experience of Life because I have only one loud speaker. Please show me how to experience true stereo by giving me one of your new speakers. Even a little 802D from the back would set me free. I will send my vahana over to Brahmaloka to collect it if that is helpful to you.

Love to Sarasvati and the children.

Vishnu.

[bigburner]

Vishnu,

Would you bi-wire the new 802D?

[Brahma]

Ah Vishnu you have found me after all these centuries, and just how long has it been since you me and Shiva did our good works together? Thank you for asking, the children are well but alas I keep finding reasons to quarrel with Sarasvati even after all this time. She makes me lose my head everytime.

But as part of our trinity, you as protector and the perfect embodiment of mercy and goodness, must surely remember that he who holds oneself back from the experience of life is the same he who holds the reigns.

So Brahma says there is much abundance here in Para yet to be found for you. Perhaps you should read my book as you have forgotton much of our ancient conversations about manifestation.

[Vishnu]

Ah Brahma, I am so glad that you mentioned your book again. I am thinking to myself “if that Brahma chappie can afford such magnificent high fidelity then his book must be magnificent too”. I think all of us at the HTGuide Forum should purchase a copy. Perhaps the enlightenment that it brings will enable us all to buy a system like yours one day? Oh goodness me yes.

[Vishnu]

Bigburner, out of respect for Brahma and the B&W 800 Series, I will tri-wire my new 802D!

[bigburner]

Vishnu,

Make sure you post a photo of the new speaker and the binding posts at both ends.