Breakin time?

[mr_m687]

I hooked up my B&W 804S's yesterday for the first time and gave them a good 5 hour listen. They sounded good a little on the bright side but better than my old Paradigm 7's. I'm wondering what changes other owners have noticed during breakin with their new speakers. I think they are great so far but what can I expect in the future from these babies? Smooth out, better bass? I really already know the answer but would like to hear others thoughts on the subject. Also someone has to keep this dead forum going.

[jim777]

Well I can tell you what happened with my 703's (at the same time as a new amp, new cd player, etc). The first 10-15 min. were awful. Then it was "ok" but it was very harsh and lack of bass. After a few hours (3-10?), the mids & bass came in good, but there was still listening fatigue.. (harsh sounds). After 1-3 weeks they were incredible. At first the breakin makes big changes but after it is more subtle, like a better stereo image and less fatigue due to harshness. After several weeks, I have no more problems with high frequencies (harsh sound) like many say when they talk about the 703's (but I have a McIntosh amp). From your point (5h), you should have the feeling of going from 2500$ speakers up to 6000$ speakers (well here I have canadian $ as a reference). The "bright side" should change into "detail". But if you don't have a good amp, they might always sound (harsh or bright) and "analytical" instead of "musical".

[audioqueso]

I always listen to a little bit of all music the first day, then I don't listen to music for the rest of the week. I will only play tv, and when I leave the house, leave some heavy music playing. After a week of breaking in my 805s, I noticed how much smoother the highs sing. SOOOOO much smoother. Bass also became a lot less muddy. Not that it was muddy, but it became cleaner. What I notice more and more as I play my speaker is how much cleaner and smoother the highs become. It's been two months, but unlike the 600s that I had before, I don't notice any change in the bass. The 600s bass became better the more and more I played them. Well, try breaking them in the way I did, and then let us know how it changed for you. Congrats btw on the 804S.

[mr_m687]

Thanks guys, very helpful my ears are still hurting today but only have about 10 hours on the new 804S. Rebelman how about a few comments on those new 803S how many hours before they soften up?

[jim777]

I remember that ear hurting... don't worry, 2 weeks and you should be fine
After that, the changes will be more subtle.

[mr_m687]

I have over 20 hours on the new 804S ears are still bleeding not fun to listen to. I can't image the sound changing that much in the future. So far disappointed where is the $4000 sound I paid for?

[RebelMan]

Actually, mr_m687, I have about 25 hours on my 803S's. I would have had more but I am painting the room the speakers will finally end up in, so I haven't listen to them as much as I should have by now.

Some CD's are more harsh sounding (what you call ear bleeding) then others. When I play my DVD-A's though, I don't have the same problem, at least it is not as noticeable. B&W states that it could take quite some time (about a month of steady listening) before that harshness will wear off.

You just got your speakers, so be patient and give it a few more weeks before you render a final opinion. Hang in there man! The B&W's will treat you right.

[jim777]

mr_m687, 20 hours is nothing, still need to wait....
btw, what amp do you have? That can also be the problem

[mr_m687]

Pass Labs Aleph 2 audioquest cables, they are starting to soften up but I'm still waiting for the smooth sound I heard in the store. Any thoughts on the amount of hours to break these in, B&W booklet says 15 hours. Everyone keeps saying wait a couple of weeks what does that mean? Some people listen 4 hours in a week others 4 hours in a day? I'm happy they have softened up but hope it continues I have just under 40 hours on them.

[RebelMan]

Plan on at least 150 hours. My dealer went as far to say it could take 3 to 6 months! Do you have a deadline?

What are you driving them with? This will also affect the sound, and can be considerable.

[kurtholz]

get a break in CD, play it 4 or 5 times, each time louder, works

kinda

:-)

[mr_m687]

RebelMan
Yes, I sort of do have a deadline my brother is coming to visit this weekend and he wants to hear them. How long do others play them nonstop? I went a good 12 hours one day does anyone leave them on all night?

[PewterTA]

The most I did for breaking in my speakers is using them normally. After about 2 or 3 weeks (probably at least an hour a day of TV/music use) my speakers I thought got noticeably better.

I'd say if you really want to speed up the process, put music on (on repeat) while you are at work and out of the house...play it at a resonable volume (as if you were listening, but not super loud). Do that each day of this week, and you should notice a big difference in them. You figure that's roughly 32 hours (minus today) you'll add on which is a big difference. But they will get better and better and better as time goes on.

[caleb]

Break in speakers-amps-cables

When I got my 802's I also thought I had made the wrong decision.

I had also got two new Bryston 7B SST to go with the fronts.

I played a CD on repeat during the week at work (about 10 hours a day), and after the first week there was a noticeable difference to the sound.

After the second week (that's about 200 hours) things had settled down nicely with little change up to now and that's over 12 months.

By the way the same should happen if you change your cables too.

So conclusion is it took 200 hours of playing to get my B&W's "run in"

[johan]

mr_m687, what other stuff do you have?

[Nigel_Rav]

I've got about 80 hours on my 804S' so far. This includes quite a few hours played very loud, which obviously helps break-in, but isn't always practical.

I initially found the bass too boomy and ill-defined, the mid-range too recessed and the treble too bright and obvious. However, they were still quite listenable right from the get-go, but I have approx. $17k of CD player and amp feeding them, so they should sound good

After about 30 hours at various volumes (I tried to keep things below a certain level for the first 15-odd hours BTW, it just seemed prudent to be gentle at first), all 3 areas were loads better. Now at 80 hours, things have improved further again. Realism of vocals is superb. The thing that seemed to change the most over the 80 hours was the bass. It went from boomy, to rubbery, to over-rich, to mechanical, then finally to rich, full and natural combined with being nice and tight.

I would guess I'm at about 90% of their full potential now. B&W mention a 15 hour run-in time in the manual for PR reasons. They feel that some potential owners would not be at all happy if they were told up front that the speakers would sound poo until 200 hours of play. Of course these would not be the words used, but there would be a risk this would be some peoples' interpretation.

There's a fairly well-known trick of running the speakers out of phase and facing each other to speed up the running in process, but I didn't bother with it.

[caleb]

Nigel,
I agree with you - i don't know of ANY equipment manufactures who recomends a "full length" run in period.

As I said 200 hours and you've got them almost to perfection.

at 24 hours a day - tha's only just over week - so it's not that bad.

[johan]

mr_m687,

Since you're new to B&W it is worth mentioning that all B&W's are pretty sensitive regarding positioning (that might go for all speakers but I think B&W is a bit special). You'll be amazed by the difference if you move them around just a bit.

[js24]

I agree with the general consensus on the longer-than-what-it-is-written breakin time for B&W speakers
however, what about your room? is your room bright?- lots of wood/plastics?
if you clap and hear echoing, your room is definitely bright
then you'll need some thick rugs and curtains and *plants*
if not just give it some more time- play 24hrs at low volume helps too
my listening area is very bright and my 703s were super harsh for first two weeks but it is much much better now- the 703 is supposedly harshier than any of the 800 series
good luck

[aphexist]

Breaking in speakers is like taking a huge dump. At first it is fairly painful and slow going, but as things start to speed up, the process starts to become pretty enjoyable. After it is all over you have a huge pile of poo and you feel better.

At least that was my experience. Do you guys really subscribe to that psychoacoustic baloney? Do you really think that you can discern an acoustic difference after a time span of 2 hours to 2 months?

"Yeah, my speakers sound so much better now than they did 2 weeks ago. Must be the break in."

It's all in your head.

[js24]

maybe it's all in our heads
the fact that every single one of us spending time in this forum simply proves that we are somewhat abnormal..

- electronics warm-up is less obscure than the speaker breakin, however..
I just leave my CDPs on and try to leave the Amp on as much unless I go out of town.
the difference is clear and I did not intentionally test this. I had some days when my music didn't sound right and tried to find out what I had done differently- one difference was the cold amp.
keep your electronics warm, it'll definitely help
just my 0.0002cents

[mr_m687]

I've noticed a significant difference in the sound of my speakers since I bought them. Not where I want them to be yet but break-in is something that absolutely takes place. Drivers take time to losen up, you also have internal wires that need to break-in aphexist you know this.

[caleb]

Breaking in speakers is like taking a huge dump. At first it is fairly painful and slow going, but as things start to speed up, the process starts to become pretty enjoyable. After it is all over you have a huge pile of poo and you feel better.

At least that was my experience. Do you guys really subscribe to that psychoacoustic baloney? Do you really think that you can discern an acoustic difference after a time span of 2 hours to 2 months?

"Yeah, my speakers sound so much better now than they did 2 weeks ago. Must be the break in."

It's all in your head.

Now we know where your brains went - down the crapper with your dump!!

[beehive]

I was so excited and invited a friend to check my 3 week old DM602 S3,
I played eric clapton on DVD but was disappointed, the sound was harsh, the bass sucks. i tried repositioning them, we waited till his ears bled & left unconvinced.
I continued playing more CDs that night and after sometime i played the same DVD again,my god the speakers were singing pretty good.

Do you guys think it has something to do with electronic warming up as js24 were saying? or more break in time is needed?

just this morning eric clapton is not in the mood....maybe if he got warmed up he'll sing me the blues the way he does it. ops:

[mr_m687]

I'm beginning to think B&W speakers suck but willing to give the 804S some more time have about 65 hours on them. I think they have good detail but that's about it.

[jim777]

mr_m687, you still didn't tell us what source and amplification you use. What do you have as CD player and amp???

It can be a big part of the problem with very good speakers. I know that the 703's sound awful on some amps and sing with others.

[js24]

didn't he say he had the aleph2 (but what CDP?)

speaking of the aleph, here is the catch: is the aleph stable down to 2ohms?
it's class A, yet if it behaves in the same manner as the XA, it ain't gonna double or increase power under lower loads
the 804S is no way close to JBL horns in terms of senstivity (K2+XA160 beats any B&W speakers IM *HUmble!* O)
try out with another amp- your dealer should let you borrow one
(some rec.- Levinson, McIntosh, MuFi, and Pass X, not XA series)


if the mismatch is the culprit and if you like the aleph better than B&W, you might be better off seeking for another speakers or vice versa
another .000002 cents

[jim777]

Sorry, I don't know that amp. Well if it doesn't have at least 100W and if it can't go down to 3 ohms, think about another amp All I know is that the MA6500 does magic for my B&W 703 speakers, who sounded bad on a RC1070/RB1070 combo. (All with a RCD-1072 CDP). Don't abandon B&W too fast

[js24]

jim777
I bet your mac's making the 703 sweet music machine!
my MuFi A5 does a descent job making my 703 sing but my dream amp is the MC402 with my up-coming 803Ds! (you gotta love the blue meters!)

As far as i know aleph2 is 100W pure class A.. it is an excellent amp yet if it is like the XA, the power *halves!!* onto lower loads (i'm pretty sure it does)

[js24]

I was so excited and invited a friend to check my 3 week old DM602 S3,
I played eric clapton on DVD but was disappointed, the sound was harsh, the bass sucks. i tried repositioning them, we waited till his ears bled & left unconvinced.
I continued playing more CDs that night and after sometime i played the same DVD again,my god the speakers were singing pretty good.

Do you guys think it has something to do with electronic warming up as js24 were saying? or more break in time is needed?

just this morning eric clapton is not in the mood....maybe if he got warmed up he'll sing me the blues the way he does it. ops:

the "cold" amp sound I hear is pretty much the same as you described
just do some experiments and you'll see whether I'm just hallucinating (Am I??
:E )
I never listen "cold" thesedays for sure
oh, MuFi kW amps/CDP even tells you whether it is warming up or ready to be the best (45min. or so, by light indicator) I guess I'm not the only believer of the warm amp

[turbokuo]

mr_m687,


1) Which CD player are you using and what type of DAC does it have it in?

2) Also are the speakers near or away from the walls?

3) What type of music are you listening to?

4) Does the room that you are in have a lot for windows?

5) Do you have a Rear Projection TV between the speakers?

[caleb]

Nice one lad!!

This reply from a lovely American forum member: -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dear South African,

i'm going to take a dump on your head!!

I don't even know where to begin with you.

You believe that speakers need "break-in time."

You think that cables make an audible difference (and also need to be "run in").

You hawk ugly aluminum phase plugs to unwitting newbies on an internet message board and apparently have bought your own snake oil.

I don't even need to try to insult your intelligence because your willingness to accept these audio myths points a stinky finger at the glaring truth: You are not a thinking man.

I am better than you.

love,

Trey

As he says -"He is better than me" - must be 'caue he's American!!, and they love to take a dump on everyone's heads!!

[Aussie Geoff]

Everyone,

Lets play nice together now...

Nothing is personal here so lets not get too intense about things - just stay on topic

Regards

Geoff

[js24]

Caleb,
I'd love to put him in a psychotic asylum for ya...
what a crazy @sS??!?!?!?!

[jim777]

Well most "audio myths" can be explained by (relatively) simple physical models so their impact on sound isn't very surprising... For example, electronics warm-up: just look at page 3 of http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/PN/PN2222A.pdf and it will give you an idea of how temperature can change the charateristics of every single piece in your amp, CDP, etc. Of coarse a good design takes these changes into account, but the engineer can still choose to optimize a little for the "normal" operating temp.

Change in sound caused by different phase plugs and speaker break-in also have physical reasons. And any new electronics will also change a little when brand new (this is different from heat-up), we even have a name for it; burn-in (and not break-in). BTW, failure rate of transistors is higher at that moment, and then it goes after 20 years or so before the failure rate goes up again.

To accept or deny a "myth" without physical proof (theory and experimentation) is not my way... at least try something before saying that it doesn't work! I wonder who is really *thinking* in that matter...

[mr_m687]

What is this Dream Theater I see? Is this an album I should look into if so can you describe the type of music? Thanks.

[jim777]

mr_m687: The album you see there (Octavarium) will only be out june 7 or so; I didn't hear it yet. DT is progressive metal (I think that the guys all have Ph.D.'s except for the singer). Imagine Pink Floyd The Wall if it had been heavy-metal... All this to say that you may have to listen to an album many times before you appreciate it (I was always discovering new things in the Metropolis part II album during at least a year; both musical and inside the lyrics). The newer albums may be a bit more easy to get in (more heavy and less prog I guess).

[DimasLopez]

Accelerate Break-in time

I got a pair of 705's and so far I have about 25 hours of break in. I used Stereophile's Test CD 3 which has a track for burn-in. This track goes through all the frequency spectrum and I was able to notice a radical difference in my speakers after the first 2 hours, but they're still improving after each hour of listening. Bass is the significant improvement as well as more natural mid's.

[caleb]

Wear some protection

Oooooooooohh careful DimasLopez - get your hat on - I see a dump coming your way!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[mr_m687]

I have somewhere around 90 hours on the 804S's and they have softened up nicely I really like the sound of the mids and highs. The problem I'm having is the Bass where is it? You would think if you spend your money on a pair of $4,000 speakers they would have a little bottom end to them. Yes, I have moved them all around the room even had them right up next to the back wall still no bass. I'll be selling these and not keep them for the years I hoped I would. B&W makes very good speakers just not musical what a dissappointment. If a speaker is not musical then what is it? A piece of crap that's what it is. Oh but it shows you exactly whats in the recording, well who cares if it doesn't sound good.

[jim777]

If you want plenty of stupid bass that isn't there, ya, get another brand of speakers. I know a guy that has been playing double bass for years. I played with the tone controls of my amp until he said that the double bass in my jazz album sounded just right. Well guess what; without knowing, he choosed the bass and treble controls to be perfect center. But yes, when I listen to other stuff like SymphonyX, I sometimes dial in a *little* bass because I want to feel the bass harder than it really is. That isn't a sin

[js24]

mr_m687
like I told you before your aleph may *not* be a good match with the 804S
again, if you like your aleph better than the 804S, just return the speakers or sell'em
it is just NOT your cup of tea (i might migrate to some other speaker brand at one point, too)
good luck

just out of curiosity, what speakers did you have with the aleph?

[T_Rex]

A friend of mine bought 705's as an upgrade from CDM1NT's about a year ago and he really thought he made a mistake when he heard them the first time. He wanted to phone the store where he bought them and ask to get his CDM's back.

He put a different CD on repeat every day for a whole month at moderate levels. And he didn't listen at all (also the ear bleeding syndrome). Luckily (or unluckily) for him, his system is not in the house, so he could do this without affecting the family too much.

Eventually, after the month he had a better speaker than the CDM1's. So who really knows how many hours is correct to run them in. 15, 20, 40? This guy comes in over 700 hours.

I think if they really sounded good at your dealer, and after 100 hours they're still not working for you, IMO it's either your room or your other equipment...

good luck.

Later

[Pieter]

Talking of Wayne, Matt?

[RebelMan]

B&W makes very good speakers just not musical what a dissappointment. If a speaker is not musical then what is it? A piece of crap that's what it is. Oh but it shows you exactly whats in the recording, well who cares if it doesn't sound good.

Sorry to hear that you are not completely satisfied with your new speakers. The 804S's can tend to sound a little weak on the low end. However, they make up for some of this by delivering a crisp and authoritative punch. They are not boomy and they aren't intended to be. B&W speakers work well in many applications, they are, however, primarily suited for the Classical and Jazz (musical) genres.

As I and others have mentioned, the quality and type of your playback system can also effect what you hear. If you are willing to experiment in this area you may find the right combination that will suit you and your ears.

Good luck.