tube amps & B&W's

[jclyle]

Hey-
Im thinking about moving up to a tube amp from solid state. I don't do home theater at all, just 2 channel. B&W speakers need lots of juice to perform well. B&W's are also a bright sounding speaker so im hoping a tube amp would help with that as well. So, for those who may use tube amps, how many wpc do your amps have? I have a pair of 703's, and currently run them with a 200wpc Acurus. Im looking at a Rogue 88 that runs 40 wpc in triode mode, 60wpc for ultra linear mode. B&W says they need 50-200w so I may be cutting it close, but tube amps are different...

Carter

[KenK]

if it is too bright, maybe a tube pre might help? I had a tube pre before and i really smooth out the highs without being too tubby. Have you listened to tube before? If not then do demo one as tube sound is not for everyone.

[csuzor]

I listened to the 703 on a tube amp last week, and I wasn't that impressed (comparing 704 to 703).
I then spoke to the B&W product manager (France), and he confirmed by email that tube amps are not recommended for B&W:

>>Le tube ne convient pas aux B&W à cause des transfos. Cela peut faire illusion sur des messages peu complexes mais la courbe d'impédance d'une enceinte moderne et beaucoup trop tourmentée pour cela. Quand on compare deux B&W sur un ampli à tube, on compare plutôt l'influence des filtres sur le transfo que la véritable qualité des enceintes. J'avais entendu des B&W Nautilus 800 sur des amplis à tubes et le résultat était plutôt agréable... Agréable est une sensation qui peut ne pas durer, surtout si on se met à écouter une formation type orchestre symphonique à niveau réaliste.<<

Basically, tube amps do not match B&W because of power supply, the impedance curve is too complex for them. Comparing 2 B&W on a tube amp, will actually show the influence of the filters and not the quality of the speaker. He listened to the 800 series at the same place I went to, the result was rather enjoyable, but that is not a sensation which can last with more complex music such as orchestra.

My Denon seems to bring more life out of the 704 than the tube amp... I have planned to listen to Rotel amp soon, though another dealer recommends a Primare instead (and offered to compare the 2 for me)... but not on B&W.

Christophe

[Vin]

Tube Amp with B&amp;W

Hi, new here. I have a great success using a Conrad Johnson CAV-50 (45 w/c, int amp) with both B&W N805 and the new 804S. My room is 14x15 feet, so this may one of the reasons that a relatively low powered tube amp is successful in my application. I get PLENTY of volume and deep bass.

The added benefit with tubes (also run solid state McCormack RLD-1/DNA-125, and just switch speaker cables) is a very warm and sweet sound, no harshness and a large and DEEP soundstage. I enjoy it very much.

I'm only concerned with two channel. Comparing bass with the McCormack and CJ, the solid state is somewhat deeper and punchier, but tubes are warmer and rounder bass notes, which is appealing to me.

[Phil Rose]

Like KenK says, a tube pre-amp is a better choice than a tube amp.

You might only be using 1-5 watts of average power when listening at a fairly decent volume but when you hit the transitents you could demand much more power. So, for much of the time a modest tube amp will sound fine. Also, as csuzor states the B&Ws have a wild impedance curve in the LF and will tax the ability of an amp to output a lot of low frequency current. Therefore, tube amps aren't ideal mainly because of their use of output transformers which aren't very linear into complex loads.

Don't believe the BS that tube watts are different than transitor watts. A watt is a watt. What is different is the interaction of the amps with loads.

[KenK]

IMHO, most people think tube watts are diff than ss watts is because for tube amp, even if they run out of gas, they still sound nice because tube-amp clip in a soft way, not like solid state amp (nasty). In reality, they just compressed the transients. So a 25w tube amp will appears to have more power than a 25w transitor amp as the tube amp just compresses the music when it ran out of gas. OTOH, the transitor amp will sound very nasty during clipping. I have listened to tubes for around two years and if you only listen mainly to vocal, jazz, accoustic etc, tube will sound very very nice. I switched back to solid state because i am basically falling asleep everytime i listen to music. I guess i will put the tube system in my bedroom so it will help me sleep better

[Vin]

Tube Amps

All, I know is the 45 w/ch from the CAV-50 will drive the 804s or 805's to deafening levels in my room. No problem with dynamics or transients. I'm only gaining another ~4 dB with the McCormack DNA-125 at 125 w/ch. I normally listen to music at an average of ~80 dB (based on my RadioShack dB meter ~10 feet from speakers).

I now the 804S has a low impedance of 3 ohm, but the CAV-50 speaker terminals are wired off the 4 ohm tap. I don't hear any frequency anomalies that would indicate the tube amp is having problems with impedance swings.

See http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html

[no_slouch]

B&amp;W804s and 20 class A watts

I'm considering a pair of used Jadis SE845 monoblocks, 20 watts per channel, class A. Do you think they would be adequate to drive B&W804s in a 40 square meter (400 square foot) listening environment?

[Aussie Geoff]

No Slouch,

They are very gooid amplifiers indeed - but you set them a challenge in such a large room - the 20W will need to go a long way... I know they are class A tube watts but - even so the 804s love current for the bass...

What volume to you listen at and how far awat from the speakers will you be?

My instict is that in a large room like this at you would need to limit yourself to moderate listening levels. For example 10W will prodce about 100 db and 20W about 103db 1 meter away - but by the time you get 5 meters away (easu om a 400 square meter room) you will be down to about 90-92 Db - confortable for jazz and classical music but not in the space for rock or pop...

However the Jardis draw 200W of current even on standby - so their 20W may be more like 100 - in which case you might just scrape through...

Geoff

[Vin]

Jadis Amps

400 square feet is ~twice as large as the room I'm using my CAV50/ 804s in. I'm not sure this would be ideal.

[Jeff]

A gentleman I know has N804's. He was using the new McIntosh tube amp MC2102 (100 wpc) with the matching McIntosh tube preamp. He has now switched to the MC501 mono blocks (500 wpc) and continues to use the tube preamp.

His feelings on the change was he wanted a more effortless presentation with a bigger, tighter bass. The change produced this plus greater dynamics on exposive portions of the music plus a better overall balance.
He now feel the low end on the N804's are more than enough for his classical and jazz tastes.

fyi...

[Adi_V]

Hello, Im new to the forum.
I thought it would be a good place to start since were already on the same topic.
Id appreciate it if people dont take the piss, as from what i can gather id be considered 'low budget'.
I currently have DM 602 S3 B&W's, onkyo tx-ds575X amp.
I would like to upgrade to a tube amp as the one i listened to overseas took me breath away!
I love my speakers!
my room is 5mx8m and i'm very close to purchasing this amp:

http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/Leben-CS300/Leben+CS-300+Integrated+Amp

I see that B&W themselves dont recommend tubes amps.
Firstly, will it be enough power to drive the speakers? I listen to a variety of music, and i do like to have it loud on occasions.
Secondly, would it be a waste of my time? or advantageous over what i have at the moment?
Thirdly, would there be another amp worth considering (tube pre amp and solid state amp combination)?

Cheers,

[artv4]

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_90.htm

[Relentless]

In my opinion tube amps should only be used to make the music not reproduce it. My listening opinion of coarse, but if you have the need to go that rout a pair of these MC2301 would do the trick.

[Opus007]

From my limited experience...if you feel your B&W's are to bright then you need to look at your room.I would invest in some acoustic panels and place them accordingly.If you have hardwood floors ,get some rugs.I have always felt that my B&W's where to bright so I changed amps,preamps, receivers and it was becoming a never ending journey. Once I did some acoustic treatments the high frequencies where tamed and my speakers came to life.I could not believe the change.I listen to mostly 2 channel stereo and it just brought my cd's to life.It also did wonders for HT.Hope this helps.

[Briz vegas]

$4k ain't what it was a few months ago but its still a fair bit of cash. I would not be calling your system budget if that is what you are looking at spending.

There are happy B&W owners with tube amps but 12 watts is not alot unless you have really efficient speakers, and B&Ws are average in that respect (around 90dB).

The rule here is that you need to try that amp with your speakers. You are unlikely to get lucky and find someone with your proposed combination. It could sound anything from ok to fabulous.

[Adi_V]

Thanks guys for the input.

Its been very helpful and anymore info and/or opinions would be great.

[Sounder]

I auditioned tubes

I have a set of CDM 1NTs that I used in a two channel setup. I loved the way they sounded on my Marantz Receiver. I decided to upgrade, though, and thought a nice tube amp would be just the thing. So, I took my speakers into the dealer, where I auditioned several Jolida tube amps, ranging from 50 wpc up to 100 wpc. I wasn't convinced. Then, I spied a Marantz Reference Integrated amp on sale. So, we hooked it up. The salesman and I were both surprised that the soundstage was more open, and the speakers just sounded warmer and fuller overall. And, this amp is only 80 wpc, so it's not the power. neither of us had an explanation, but the one noted above may just be it. The tubes had a hard time handling the transients of the speakers. I don't know, but I was prepared to spend good money on a nice tube amp. I ended up with the Marantz reference, and I'm probably going to keep that one for a while. My two cents is that you should try the same experiment. Audition them together, then decide.

[Adi_V]

The rule here is that you need to try that amp with your speakers. You are unlikely to get lucky and find someone with your proposed combination. It could sound anything from ok to fabulous.

You are right. I auditioned amps, pre amps/ amp, source combination's... but it just didnt hit the spot.

I biwired and 'tuned' my speakers (distance from walls, silver plated banana plugs, foam in ports), and now use my imac as the source (optical cable, all cd's i ripped to itunes in WAV format).. WOW! what a difference. Its so much better, i can really pin point each frequency and adjust what needs to be there and what shouldnt. I believe i've reached the limits of my systems abilities.
I think this is what BW was trying to advertise when they said "listen, and you'll see".

oh yes.. i also listened to the 803's... omgoodness! what a pair of speakers!

[Gremal]

I wouldn't use Jolida. VAC is the way to go. It's not so much about low power vs high power or tubes vs solid state. It's about the best design, mostly regarding power handling and attention to detail in voicing the parts and grounding each wire back from the circuit board. If that attention is lacking in the amp design, you will not get an open, detailed presentation with good imaging.

[altanpsx]

Try tube cd players, I considered lots of the tube amps with my 804s. Ear 890 mono's and Ear pre had given the best result. It sound like both analog&solid state. That was very nice but, 1/3 amount of money I bought Ear Acute Cd player and It made nearly the same effect. I highly recommend you to try Ear Acute, Audio Research CD7 before you buy tube amps....