B&W: 703, old 800 or new 802D series for my HT? (Poll)

[babar]

Hi,

This is my first post and I hope with your help I can make a more intelligent decision regarding the purchase of my first premium HT as well as get some critique on the overall HT.

The specs of my room are 24' (L) and 20' (W), however there is an intrusion on both sides of the Length at the midpoint of 2' (L) x 2' (W) x 3' (Length 2) on the left side and the other extrusion is 2' (L) x 2' (W) x 7' (Length 2) on the right side of the room. Basically the first area is a little larger which has a width of 24' 7". I plan on having the seating in this section. I have attached a floor plan, "Babars Room Compressed".

The initial system I designed follows:
SYSTEM 1
VIDEO:
Fujitsu 50 Inch Plasma
COMPONENTS:
Rotel RSX-1067 1
Rotel RDV-1060 1
Rotel RT-1080 1
SPEAKERS:
B&W 703 Front Speakers 2
B&W 705 Rear Speakers 2
B&W FS-7 (Floor Stands) 2
B&W HTM 7 Center Speaker 1
B&W ASW 750 1
B&W WM6 2

Shortly thereafter I listened to the 800 series, which I really, really like the sound of and came up with the following system:
SYSTEM 2
VIDEO:
42" Panasonic Plasma which I have had for 2 years (with the better sound my stretched budget does not allow for an upgrade of the Plasma for at least 12 months, but I have a Dell 3300MP projector which I could use).
COMPONENTS:
Rotel RSP-1098 1
Rotel RMB 1095 1
Rotel RB-1090 1
Rotel RDV-1060 1
Rotel RT-1080 1
SPEAKERS (2004 models):
B&W Nautilus 800 Front Speakers 2
B&W Nautilus 805 Rear Speakers 2
B&W Nautilus 805 Floor Stands 2
B&W HTM 1 Center Speaker 1
B&W ASW 850 1

And finally after reading reviews and following the introduction of the D series my budget allows for the following system:
SYSTEM 3:
VIDEO:
42" Panasonic Plasma which I have had for 2 years (with the better sound my stretch budget does not allow for an upgrade of the Plasma for at least 12 months, but I have a Dell 3300MP projector which I could use).
COMPONENTS:
Rotel RSP-1098 Processor 1
Rotel RMB 1095 1
Rotel RB-1090 1
Rotel RDV-1060 1
Rotel RT-1080 1
SPEAKERS:
B&W Nautilus 802D Speaker 2
B&W Nautilus 805S Speaker 2
B&W FS-805 Stand Pair 1
B&W HTM3S Centre Speaker 1
B&W ASW 850 1

For Wiring I am looking at Rhapsody speaker wire with banana terminations and Encore II interconnects in between the components.

In addition I have another room 36' L x 19' W x 8' H available which I could use, however that comes with it's own set of concerns: This attachment is called "Drawing Edit Compressed".
Because the room is an extension of the house on the second floor above a drawing room there is little structural support and I have been told that I cannot have greater than 15 people in the room + no jumping, etc. Being risk averse this bothers me and I think this larger room would better serve as my bedroom & home office. In addition I would like to use this room to entertain in as well, therefore not a dedicated HT room with HT seating. I plan on using sofas and a couple of LazyBoyz for at least 12 months.
]Currently "Babar's Room Compressed" is my bedroom/home office.

Both rooms have wooden flooring with cement walls. I plan on using acoustic boards on the walls as needed and placing a carpet in the listening area as required.

Lastly, I plan on using the system 50:50 for movies and music. Was also thinking of using the space as a smallish dance floor with a few dozen friends over... I have been told that the 800's are loud enough for this purpose.
Would this create any long term harm? Also, I plan on connecting my ipod and Xbox to the system and am wondering if that too would cause any long term damage to the components/speakers.

THANKS For reading this and I really look forward to your advice and reccommendations. Personally I am most inclined towards System 2 (800 series) and it is disounted reasonably as they have been discontinued.

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I like system 3 but suggest you consider:
1) Changing the HTM3S centre for the HTM2D according to B&W you really need to match the diamond centre if you are using diamond left and right...

2) The SCMS surrounds (wall mounted) for your side and rears.

If cost becomes an issue you could change the 802Ds for 803Ds and still get a great sound / value combination compared to the other options...

Geoff

[babar]

System 3 pricing is = System 2 pricing

hi Geoff,

Thanks for much for your reply. System 3 is setting me back the same amount as System 2 as the latter has discontinued products.

It was suggested to get the 7.1 system, using the SCMS, however think I will wait a little while before upgrading as I already have the outlets in my amplifier.

From what I have gathered, the media (DVD / Music) isn't geared towards 7.1 and it is the processor which breaks the sound into additional speakers, I could be wrong here, however don't you think my room is too small for this?

Finally I was told that the HTM2D isn't available till mid-year. I am hoping to install the system in 5 weeks.. Look forward to your reply...

Thanks again,

BABAR

[jlee]

I didn't read through in detail, but just glancing at that, IMO it's a TOTAL waste to get 800's or 802D and pair them with Rotel components! 1098, 1095, and 1090 will be CLEARLY your weak points... you will not be able to take advantage of the better speakers with those electronics... I wouldn't go higher than 803S with the 1095 and 1098... and I'm not knocking Rotel, I own the 1098 and I used to own the 1095 and I've demoed the 1090... all are EXCELLENT products in their price range, but if you're going 800 or 802D, go with the Classe processor and amps (3 channel CA-3200 in the front, CA-2200 2 channel for the rear... I would avoid the 5 channel if you're going with 800 or 802's)

[Cowanrg]

jlee,

you might not have heard the new classe gear, it doesnt sound any better than rotel. if anything, rotel sounds better than it, IMO. honestly, there is better gear out there, but rotel aint bad stuff at all. i would own it before i owned classe gear.

[willbrosk]

I will not put much input here because im not qualified to be an audiophile, but here is my 2 cents anyway. I recently previewed a simular setup as yours and the sound was pretty spectactular. I am in the market for some def tech 7000 and the dealer was trying to lean me toward the discontinued BW 800s. The highs were a little much for me, but that is more likely my dislike for a lot of high tone than an actual problem. Also I wouldnt use the system for music much and this is where I thought the BWs excelled. My suggestion would be to go with a different sub. IMO(and many others if your read the forums) The BMW subs are overpriced for what you get.This will give you the money to upgrade your video. 42inches in that small of a room will be quite small. Again just my opinion but I would recommend going a different route than the plasma. The brightness and colors look great, but picture quality starts to fade within 5 years. All of the newest generation LCD, DLP and DllA will give you a bigger picture and more features for the money.

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I've moved this to Club B&W and merged it with another related thread there - as the request of Babar - author of both threads

Geoff

[jlee]

I have heard all the new Classe Delta series, and I strongly disagree with you. I don't see how anybody listening back to back the Classe Delta and equivalent Rotel with everything else the same could think otherwise, but you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

Now, at the same time, I also feel the new Classe series is way overpriced, which is why I own the Rotel 1098 and used Classe CAM-200's.

My main point is that babar is looking to pair $16,000 speakers with a $3,000 preamp and $2000 amp... and a center and rears that do not match his mains. To me, the system is widely unbalanced and could benefit from taking away from the mains and adding to other parts of the system.

[Rags]

The HTM2D is out now - I have both seen and heard it.

[sikoniko]

I would go with:

B&W Nautilus 802D Speaker 2
B&W Nautilus SCM1 or SCMS Speaker 2
B&W HTM2 Centre Speaker 1
B&W ASW 850 1

No matter what anyone says about the price of the asw sub, it is the king of subs and well worth the money it costs.

If money is the reason for not getting the htm2 center, I would recommend just going 5.1 for now and add the extra 2 later. There is 6.1 material out there, and w/ PLIIx, you will get a lot of benefit from the extra speakers, but you can add it later.

As for the amps, if you already have it, I say fine because you can always upgrade later. The speakers would be a great investment. Get the ones you want the first time and you will be happy.

[caleb]

I would not use Rotel amplification on your 800 Series speakers - a bit like running a ferrari on diesel really - you'll never get the best sound out of them.

Rather get a lower model speaker series and amplify them in a better way.
Caleb

[babar]

Thanks for everyone's input so far. Unfortunately I have looked at other component options and cannot add more expensive equipment as my budget is stretched. In order to do that I would have to downgrade the speakers and was thinking of upgrading the electronics down the road, likely with Classe or Theta Digital products. Currently if the matchup is adequate I am satisfied for lack of choices. In addition my plan is to get really good speakers which I won't have to upgrade for the next 10-15 years...

Regarding Video, I am making a compromise, however plan on upgrading that in a year or so. I am still confused regarding the discontinued 800 series or a less powerful but newer 800 series (as I will not be getting the top of the line, more like the 802D or 803's).

Hope to get some more input regarding the above to reach a decision... Please use to Poll to help reach a conclusion.

Thanks for your help so far..

best,

Babar

[Aussie Geoff]

Babar,

I am still confused regarding the discontinued 800 series or a less powerful but newer 800 series (as I will not be getting the top of the line, more like the 802D or 803's).

In my opinion:
1) You do not want the 800 series unless you can afford the best possible components as source and amplificaiton as they are seriously revealing of any weakness. They could well be too dominating for HT as they need a lot of air to breath in the room. Generally B&W don't recommend the 800 or 801 for HT applicaitons except in very large specially treated rooms.
2) Get the 802D or 803D (depending on your budget) matched with the HTM2D centre and the SCMS surrounds. You can drive these nicely with the amplifiers you are planning on and - being the latest technology they will have much better resale value in the unlikely event that you ever want to upgrade to the 800Ds...
3) Lastly we now have several posts (as well as B&W) who feel that the 802Ds sound better than the 800 signatures.... so why pay more!

Regards

Geoff

[sikoniko]

I agree w/ Geoff. You can always upgrade your amps later...

[babar]

Thanks Geoff and everyone else. I am currently looking at the following system which is priced near the discounted 800 series.

FRONT:
B&W Nautilus 802D Speaker Pair
REAR:
B&W Nautilus 805S Speaker Pair
B&W FS-805 Stand Pair
OR:
B&W DS8
OR:
B&W SCMS Pair
CENTER
B&W HTM3S Centre Speaker
OR:
B&W HTM2D
B&W HTM2D Stand
SUB:
B&W ASW 850

I am inclined to go with the DS8's as they are almost like the 805's but with dipole for movies and I don't mind putting them up on the wall.

With regard to the other choice I am inclined to go with the HTM2D as they should be a better match with the front speakers.

It was suggested that I drop the RB-1090 as I will not be getting the discounted 800 series. Is this ok - It has allowed me to get the HTM2D instead of the HTM3S.

I am getting much closer to my HT package and am so glad that I took the initiative to post on this forum. I look forward to your comments reading the post on the new 800 series (specially the comparision of the 802's and the old 800's).

All the best,

BABAR

[babar]

getting closer

Hi Guys,

Have been busy with work, but finally worked out the following and looking for advice. I haven't heard the new 800D series and would like to but my dealer doesn't have it in stock.

B&W Nautilus 802D Speakers
B&W DS8 for surround
B&W HTM2D
B&W HTM2D Stand
B&W ASW 850

The dealer reccomended going with the HTM1D instead of the HTM2D, however my electronics are:

Rotel RSP-1098
Rotel RMB 1095
Rotel RDV-1060
Rotel RT-1080

Are the electricals powerful enough to drive the current system, the Rotel Amplifier gives out 200w x 5 - is this sufficient to drive the 802D's? what about the HTM1D?

I am open to reconfiguring the system to get the best sound from my budget.

I am being quoted $100/metre for fancy wiring - is this excessive for this system?

Lastly, I have a 42" plasma in hand and while is small the other option I have it to perhaps use a dell 3300mp projector The link to the Dell follows:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=3300cs&s=dhs

I would get a screen in that event.

I originally was spending 100% of my budget on the 700 series setup with a 50" plasma - however didn't think the sound was all that and loved the output from the 800series which was linked to McLaren electrics at the shop's studio.

Now I am spending 175% of that budget just on speakers and electronics leaving no room for the Video Display..

Currently I am looking at the system I mentioned earlier and am looking for advice if that is the best investment and what I might be overlooking...

I definitely cannot expand my budget much, haven't even added in wiring costs, so upgrading to Classe would be difficult if I don't downgrade on something else. I could squeeze in the HTM1D if that is reccomended.

Thanks,

Babar

[ti33er]

Hi Babar

I think that speakers are your #1 components, build your system around those - as said in this post before, you can always upgrade your electronics later. Also, second hand amplifiers seldom go wrong, and last for years, so this is also an option to cut costs!

What you have listed above for your speaker selection is gob-stopping (wish I could own those, and you will be the envy of many!) - the SCM8's are also a good choice as opposed to 805S, as in dipole mode they will interfere very little acoustically with your Diamond tweeters - the frequency cut off in dipole is much lower i.e. no clash with that scintilating Diamond treble!

PS. I have heard the HTM2D paired with 802D’s, and it did not sound out of place – we were watching “Too Fast, Too Furious” DVD, and the cars panning across the screen were rip-roaring marvellous (the panning car is a good test for a centre speaker btw, this combo passed with flying colours IMO!)

[ti33er]

PS. I know this is not really a relevant statement for this thread, but I would go for an Infocus 4805 DLP Projector over that Dell - I have one of these beauties and it is the best out there for the money by a long-shot - beats almost any plasma screen that is twice the price (besides the Hi-Def plasma's), for sheer size and pure movie involvement!

I am projecting onto a 7ft screen and sitting 8ft away, which is mind-blowing, and all my friends flock over for screenings and sports regularly!

[perato]

$100/meter for speaker cable is exorbitant. There is no rule about how much to spend on cable as a percentage of speaker cost (some people like to say spend 10% or 7% of speaker cost on cables, which is hogwash). Read the speaker cable face off articles at Audioholics. Only inductance, resistance, and capacitance are relevant properties for speaker cable performance. If you actually WANT to spend that kind of money on speaker cable then that is your choice (you might prefer the aesthetics of such cable). Just don't buy expensive cable because a salesman told you so unless he/she has measurements of the cable's inductance, resistance, and capacitance. You would be better off buying cheaper cable with appropriate measurements and spending the money you saved on the speakers, electronics, or room acoustical treatments/parametric equalization.

According to B&W's USA website, the SCM8 dipole speaker has been discontinued. The DS8S is a monopole/dipole switchable speaker, according to B&W's 800 series brochure.

[ti33er]

Apologies, I had been reading something about the old SCM8’s recently, Freudian slip – I meant the new dipole DS8S (late at night for me too )

[babar]

ti33er, I would love to go with a different projector, however purchased the Dell about 6 months ago.

Still wondering if I need to add the Rotel RB-1090 (375w x 2) to drive the 802D's

Similarly will the RMB-1095 (200 x 5) be able to also drive the HTM1D or the HTM2D - I am still on the fence regarding which one to go with and the HTM1D simply looks fantastic and very serious.

Has anyone heard the Rotel and 802D's together? What did you think of the system?

Having changed my mind, moving from the 600 series, to the 700, to the recently 800s and now to the 802d's, I am now getting butterflies in making such a significant purchase and just realized that I haven't looked at any other amp/speaker combos. But am used to the B&W sound having used the old 600's in my Boston apartment.

[Phil Rose]

Sounds like the 802d,s are the winners in your search. I think that you'll be really pleased. I think that the HTM1d would be insane, because of the $8K cost, unless you're a big multi-channel audio person. The HTM2d should be a great match to the voicing of the 802d's. If you really want more performance out of the center you could add a dedicated sub for the center but, I don't think that's necessary.

I run Bryston 7B-STs on my N802s. This was quite a step up from the 150W/ch ATI amp that I had. However, as others have mentioned, the N802s demanded better electronics than what I had and I went through several upgrades. If you're really serious about 2-channel music then you should seriously consider adding a good stereo pre-amp in addtion to the processor. Unless you spend a huge amount of $$s for a pre/pro a good, not very expensive, 2-channel preamp will blow the pre/pro out of the water.

I heard a pair of N802s on a big Rotel in a 2-channel system, it could have been the RB-1090 that your considering, and the combo sounded good. I don't think that you'll be disappointed if you're inclined to go with it. I think the more important thing is not to under power your 802d's. Again, I'll say that a good 2-channel pre-amp will make a bigger difference in you musical enjoyment than using a pre/pro.

my $0.02

[ti33er]

Apparently there are some monster (RB-1091 / RB-1092) 500WPC ROTEL amps coming out soon...you might want to hold of buying the 1090 for a little bit as these might be the beasts worthy of your 802D's, if you're intent on going the ROTEL route?

The link in the ROTEL Forum is here --> http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11161

[babar]

Thanks for the heads up ti33er, I have written to my dealer about the availability of the Rotel amps. I feel that while they will be better, might not require 500w/channel and my the current 1090 would suffice at 375wpc.

Phil, in my recent post regarding current final equipment choice I mention using the Rotel RSP-1098 & Rotel RMB 1095 --> I could be wrong, but isn't that a pre amp, however using 200w & 5 channels.
Keeping what you suggested in mind, I believe you are saying I should consider getting the 375wpc Rotel 1090 stereo amp... I would listen to music/ht 50:50.

Lastly, if I get the HTM1D will the RMP 1095 rated at 200wpc be sufficient to drive it or will I need a monoblock amplifier for it?

Will using a stereo preamp also improve the HT quality?

Lastly, if I were not to go with the additional stereo amp, is the current 200wpc insufficient to drive the 802's?



Thanks,

Babar

[ti33er]

hmmm most people have said in past threads that the RB-1090 is sufficient for the old N803 - N802's or 802D's require something more beefy as they are power gluttons!? ...however if you are intent on keeping costs down, still consider getting cheaper (even second hand) amps for now, with the intent to upgrade later? - speakers should be keepers!

PS. With all this money that you are spending you really ought to be demo'ing before you sign on the dotted line...making HiFi mistakes is very costly and you seldom get over 70% of your money back from RRP purchases in my experience – remember that HiFi is not really an investment, it is more of an expensive hobby!

PPS. HTM1D with multichannel amp @ 200WPC, I would have my doubts about it's performance?

[babar]

Hi ti33er,

Spoke with another dealer and he said that I should go downgrade on the speakers to make room for the New Classe Delta series processor and amplifier, specifically:

Classe Delta CA-5200 200w 5c amplifier
Classe Delta SSP-600 Surround Sound Processor

The cost of the components have increased by just over 100% and it was suggested that I downgrade from and to:

802D --> 803D
DS8 --> SCM8
HTM2D --> HTM3

However, I really like the marlin heads and am very keen on the 802D.. and I believe in ti33er's advice that the speakers should be my chief concern.

Any further suggestions on what I am currently looking at?

And advice as to how I should downgrade whilst upgrading the components.

Most people suggest that Rotel are not a good match for the 800 series, a much better match for the 700 series. I even thought about going down to the 700's but didn't love them when I heard them initially.

I will be listening to them sometime in the next 3-4 weeks. Also reccommended was a Meridien 5500 complete HT package which is around the same price as going with my BW/Classe system.

Thanks,

BABAR

[Miroku]

I'd say dump as much money as possible into the speakers. You can upgrade your electronics later. Its the speakers that are the most important.

[babar]

FINALLY READY TO CHOOSE! -a little less confused

HI ALL:

Thanks for you help earlier. To fill you in, I paid for the system earlier last year and never completed the purchase, opting for store credit on the 800 and Rotel package. I heard the 802D's on a Rotel setup last fall and wasn't impressed compared to the Krells which my friend had them connected to. I was almost settled on either the 803D's w/h Rotel (5.1) or the 700 w/h Rotel (7.1), similar to what I mentioned a long time ago in this thread.
Since having gotten the credit, I have been keeping busy by getting married, work, moving, etc. and having ordered the furniture for the new home (got the Laz-y-boy home theatre seating after trying out several non-pro stuff) I am now looking to place the order in the next week or so.

I was pretty ready to place the complete order until I thought of moving to the 802D's (I like the Marlins) for 50% more than the price of the 803D's which lead to the following system choices and tradeoffs (choice of brands is restriced by the brands carried at the store).
Additionally, I have made the choice based on budget constraints. Room size will change over time so I decided to go with a long-term perspective of building a large dedicated room in a few years.

CHOICES:

PROJECTOR:
SIM2 Domino 35H
SIM2 HT-300 Link
SIM2 HT E-Link

ELECTRICALS:
Rotel RSP-1098
Rotel RMB 1095
Rotel RB-1090
Rotel RDV-1092
Rotel RDV-1092
Rotel RT-1080

OR:
Classe CDP-300
Classe SSP-600
Classe SSP-300
Classe CA-5200

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 803D
B&W NautiluS 802D
B&W Nautilus HTM2D
B&W SCM1 S
B&W DS8
B&W ASW 875
B&W Nautilus HTM2D STAND

OTHER:[B]
Nevo SL Universal Remote
Nevo Link allowing Wifi control
I have set aside funds for wiring.


System A:
PROJECTOR:
SIM2 Domino 35H

ELECTRICALS:
Rotel RMB 1095
Rotel RSP-1098
Rotel RDV-1092

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 803D
B&W Nautilus HTM2D
B&W SCM1 S or B&W DS8 or B&W 805's w/h stands
B&W ASW 875
B&W Nautilus HTM2D STAND

SYSTEM B:
ELECTRICALS:
Rotel RMB 1095
Classe SSP-300

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D
B&W Nautilus HTM2D
B&W SCM1 S or B&W DS8 or B&W 805's w/h stands
B&W Nautilus HTM2D STAND


PROS & CONS IMHO (please critique):
SYSTEM A:
Pros:
Complete system at get-go
Have not heard the system but have listened to the electronics paired with the 700's.
Cons:
Inability to upgrade later without changing major components which is why I scrapped the 700's and went with 803D's.

SYSTEM B:
Pros:
Love the speakers, especially the looks.
Like the Classe minimalist look.
Cons:
Will not be able to realize complete benefit of 802D's with current electronics.
No Projector - instead will use a spare 42" plasma and a Dell 1300 projector.
Will have to use existing Denon DVD player.
No Subwoofer
No Tuner (rarely would use it, haven't heard the radio at home for 2 years)


Concern:
I have not heard either system package and it is not possible for me to do so.
With System B, I plan on upgrading the electronics over time.

A little off topic, but should I squeeze in the NevoSL? I am not very familiar with the product having only played a little with it.

Which rear speakers would work best? I am looking at a smallish size room for the HT: 17.5' x 15.5'

I really am ready for the system, currently using an old SONY DREAM STATION (HTIAB) I bought my wife a long time ago as I have not setup my previous system and my music listening is really restriced to the Bose QC3's which are very good.

I have gotten very good pricing from the dealer in light of the wait and restriction of brands; however I cannot change the building blocks I mentioned.

Hope to share the pics once the system is up!

[ti33er]

Hi Babar

Wow, it has been quite a while since I dabbled in this forum ...this really is quite a tough choice looking at your reasoning for the debate over the two systems…

Personally I would go for the best front speakers (and projector) that I could afford as these make up for the largest representation of a HT. Also you don’t really need a sub with good fronts set to ‘big speakers’ IMO. Over a little time upgrade the cheaper electronics as cheaper gear seems to have much better resale and more people wanting to buy it than the high-end stuff (but with that statement this all depends on how long it is really going to take you to do this...i.e. if it is going to take you YEARS realistically, well...here is my story if you are interested…

I held onto my Nautilus speakers and was just about to go with the new 804/3’s etc. (but held off as rumours of price drops, so thank goodness) and did some selling and downgrading on my electronics in the interim. I bought cheap mid-range stuff like Cambridge Audio Azur range with the intent on upgrading them to the likes of Classe or future digital technology later but it took me so long (like almost a year, with a nagging girlfriend demanding I forget all about this stuff and save…that dumped me over money issues) that I became very frustrated having a half-baked setup rearing to go retarded by under spec electronics, that I finally sold almost all of my expensive HT gear…and procured cheapy 600 series speakers! I have been avoiding ‘tempting’ Forums (until now) until I can afford to get exactly what I really want all in one go...needless to say I lost a substantial amount of hard earned cash in the process and I hope you don’t go down these roads!)

People’s opinions will vary, of course you need to make the ultimate decision …as was always said to me, “DEMO” …it is painful at the best of times but you need to know exactly what you are letting yourself in for as there is nothing worse than post sales dissonance…

[ti33er]

I reckon you should put this money aside and invest it for a year so that it gains some interest...then buy everything (as the chances are it will be even cheaper) together in one foul swoop! ...some people might want to douse me in petrol and set me alight for this statement, but that is my advice!

[ti33er]

...sorry, did you say that was store credit you are buying this all with? ...well then, as I said good fronts, projector and the rest later (if it doesnt take you 2-5 years)

[babar]

get the feeling this is going to get more complicated before simple and thats fine

:roll: ti33r: thanks for takign the time to write at length. I am sorry to hear about the experience & will endeavor not to venture in the direction; it helped me get my bearings in focus and hope with added opinions will be able to put together a system I can enjoy.

My wife would really like a projector- she is into be video and I into the sound. Due to the size of the room and reccomended throw distance she thinks the Sim2 will have to be in the cupboard or bathroom. Instead she mentioned a sony or other brand projector which can be placed at an angle and produce a larger image (ofcourse a decrease in quality is expected) whilst being closer to the screen.
I can switch to the SIM2 (again tied to dealer) but then will have to drop the Classe and go with a Rotel SSP 1098 which is o.k. but the forums say the sound isn't great paired with the 802D's... Any thoughts on this ?

Yes, I do have store credit and need to make this decision in the next 2 weeks. I have a container shipping out of the country where the store is and would like to put the system on board.

It would be great to do as suggested and my wife often makes the same mistake saying, "how about B&O?" and I kinda am like.. "please don't forget we do not have the choice any more; it frustrates me when you say this".

On the other hand I have always wanted B&W- and is still a brand I most identify with/know about and carries nostalgic value.

Back to Ti33er's comment: I imagine getting the upgrade within 2 -4 years. This will be my first "serious" (for me at least) HT system. Previously in b-school I ran the minipods with a B&W sub and center coupled with BW electronics and Denon source unit (and was not able to take the volume up because of condo rules which stipulated a $500 fine which increased exponentially!!! on every violation).

I digress: a conern with System B is whether this is a good setup in terms of will it all sound good together (I know I will not be getting the max out of it) but is the pairing soo poor that it is not worth considering.

[norpus]

Babar
I agree with previous posts - get the good speakers with your dosh now.

If music is your main aim, get the 802d - they are gorgeous and will last you almost 'forever'. But pair then with a good powerful 2ch amp. Buy cheapy surrounds - it won't matter so much believe me. I still use 600 series surrounds with my 802d as HT not so important anymore now I have wonderful 2ch.

If HT is yours and wifes passion, get the good HTM2D centre and a great sub (get a non B&W as they are not that good bang for buck IMO). Downgrading cash outlay to the 803d will also be quite acceptable and you can run Rotel 1095 till you can afford better later. But do not be wthout a great sub for HT. Say a DD18 or similar. Again surrounds not so important apart from looks

my 0.02

[babar]

Thanks for all the help so far:
How does this sound:

System C:
ELECTRICALS:
Rotel RMB 1095 (5 channel x 200w)
Rotel RB 1090 (2 channel x 375w)
Classe SSP-300 (7.1 SSP)

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D
B&W Nautilus HTM2D
B&W Nautilus HTM2D STAND

OLD STUFF:
B&W 500 Sub
5 minipods of which can I use 2 or 3 for rear surround?
42" Plasma (wedding present still sealed)

is it worth getting the 1095 or waiting till I can upgrade the electronics and instead
Either way I WANT to utilize all my store credit.

Will the Classe SSP-300 make a difference or should I switch to Rotel's 1098 at just over 1/2 the price of Classe SSP-300 and perhaps get the rear speakers.

ti33r: Unfortunately, cannot get keep buy both the SIM2 projector and B&W 802D + HTM2D because that uses up about 80% of the credit leaving no room for amp and ssp.

Terribly confused currently... more choices is good... also more help in making those choices = better.... thanks guys.







PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM RESTRICTED TO CLASSE, B&W, ROTEL.

[sikoniko]

Thanks for all the help so far:
How does this sound:

System C:
ELECTRICALS:
Rotel RMB 1095 (5 channel x 200w) $2000
Rotel RB 1090 (2 channel x 375w) $2000
Classe SSP-300 (7.1 SSP) $4000 = $8000

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D $12000
B&W Nautilus HTM2D $4000
B&W Nautilus HTM2D STAND $300 = 16300 = $24300

OLD STUFF:
B&W 500 Sub
5 minipods of which can I use 2 or 3 for rear surround?
42" Plasma (wedding present still sealed)



PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM RESTRICTED TO CLASSE, B&W, ROTEL.

Once you do this, are you done? or are you willing up upgrade again in a few months?

I say consider this:

[A]
Classe SSP-600 (7.1 SSP) $6500
Classe CA-3200 (for l/c/r) $6000
rotel 1075 for rest $1000
SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D $12000 = $25500

and get the htm2d center later.

or:

Classe SSP-300 (7.1 SSP) $4000
Classe CA-5200 $8000

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D $12000 = $24000

and get the htm2d center later.

Personally, I'd go for A because you'd get the advantage of the 2 channel preamp in the ssp600 as well as balanced connections. At least you would have proper amplification for your speakers here, instead of Rotel, which you would feel like you were missing the potential of the 802d's.

[babar]

Wow.. that's an interesting setup Sikoniko. I never thought of building a great system in pieces over the long-term.

After some thinking I am wondering whether it is worht the outlay on so much in electronics and whether they will really last me that long? What do you think.. I know I will be buying a true and tested system but spending more on Classe and giving up the HTM2D is a toss up because I won't have a center for movies (is that as essential as I think? because to me all teh dialogue is from the centre and will be watching movies 70% of the time).

I do like option A , (aka System D) over option B (aka system E) because it will provide adequate power to the speakers; however am really confused because when it comes to upgrading the speakers it will be cheaper using System E as I will not need another amplifier down the road.

Honestly, I think I will miss HTM2D - should I go with System D or E , I do not see myself buying a center for at least 2 years which might not 'complete' it for HT.

Any other thoughts on this...

[norpus]

Once you do this, are you done? or are you willing up upgrade again in a few months?

I say consider this:

[A]
Classe SSP-600 (7.1 SSP) $6500
Classe CA-3200 (for l/c/r) $6000
rotel 1075 for rest $1000
SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D $12000 = $25500

and get the htm2d center later.

or:

Classe SSP-300 (7.1 SSP) $4000
Classe CA-5200 $8000

SPEAKERS:
B&W NautiluS 802D $12000 = $24000

and get the htm2d center later.

Personally, I'd go for A because you'd get the advantage of the 2 channel preamp in the ssp600 as well as balanced connections. At least you would have proper amplification for your speakers here, instead of Rotel, which you would feel like you were missing the potential of the 802d's.

After reading up on the ssp600, I agree with sikoniko's [A] above. The 2ch pre in the SSP600 would be ideal for the 802d, and the CA-3200 would give you quality amping that the 802d richly deserve (as opposed to rotel which you would change out within a short period looking for better SQ IMO)

We still have not heard from you Babar what is more imp, 2ch or HT??
Can you also confirm your current budget pls

I don't know, so I am going to assume that 2ch is the most important (why else would one choose 802d on your budget?)

For 2ch
I would get your main speakers first - ie 802d.
Then the amps to power properly.
Those are the things that will last you 10 years+ if selected correctly now
So the Classe power amps it has to be. Which one? I find multichannel amps are great for versatility and bang for buck. So it comes down to the 3ch vs 5ch. Me, I'd go the extra $2K for the 5 ch - ie CA5200. That would allow you later to biamp the 802d if you got another amp later. Would save buying the 1075 too.

So far
Classe CA-5200 $8000
B&W 802D $12000 = $20000
No compromises

Then look at 2ch preamp capability of the processor - the ssp600 is best obviously. The 1098 is OK on 2ch at a pinch, but you will upgrade the prepro within 2 years when new HT audio standards/hdmi get standardised anyway. So don't waste too much money here. Go the 1068 or 1098.

Finally, the centre and surrounds. Save dosh and buy the 600 series, incl LCR600. Good enough for HT until you feel need to upgrade when $ avail.(or not)

So
Rotel 1098 $2000?
B&W LCR600 centre $500? (or run phantom centre)
B&W 602 or your pods for surrounds
interconnects - middle road, not exxy ones

Yes, this is a compromise on the HT. But HT sound is more forgiving as you have video being 1/2 the equation. With music, all you have is audio so that SQ is critical. Hence my choice of highest class mains and amplification for the long term. If there is any money left over, spend it on the sub eg DD18 $3000? which believe me will also enhance your 802d on 2ch also (please use it) as well as being a necessity for HT.

If HT is more important forget the above - you don't need and can't afford to start with 802d. Please let us know your priority so we can progress with narrowing down the 'help' to one kickass system for you Babar that you can order in your short timeframe left.

[sikoniko]

I wouldnt mix a center out of the 800 series. if you wanted to compromise, perhaps you could get a used NHTM1 or NHTM2 for the time being.

After all of my upgrades, the one thing I have learned is, put your money on the speakers you want, and the amps you want and plan on replacing the pre/pro every 5 years or so.

so, the compromise with your assumed budget (around $24k).. do you buy an amp you know you are going to replace and lose money on it or do you maximize your purchase and realize you'll need to get a center later, but in doing so, don't have to lose money on the investment by buying a stepping stone to get there? I've waisted a lot of money on stepping stones and sometimes I break even, and sometimes I don't on my upgrade path...

while I don't like that classe won't be adding HDMI to the ssp-600, you really don't need it. you can do everything you need with the new hi-def formats through the analog inputs. so there is still value in it, granted, like I said, around 5 years IMO.

[stewfoo]

jlee,

you might not have heard the new classe gear, it doesnt sound any better than rotel. if anything, rotel sounds better than it, IMO. honestly, there is better gear out there, but rotel aint bad stuff at all. i would own it before i owned classe gear.

Lex, we need a drug test here please.

[B&W 700 Guy]

Lex, we need a drug test here please.

Now Stew we have never asked you for a drug test, or have we? :rofl:

But this time I agree with you...

[babar]

I am looking at the 802D's because I really like the sound and the way they look and feel that they are a better long term investment (ti33er pointed out getting the best front speakers possible). I don't want to have to change my fronts later (in the next 8+ years at least) and would like them to be kinda last "forever".

With respect to music, I completely agree that the SSP-600 and CA-3200 are ideal as evidenced by others writing as such in this forum.

My preference is 75:25 (HT:music). It's going into a decidacte room for HT and not in a lounge. Current budget is $25k.

Earlier I was leaning on the 803D's, however I feel these might be inadeqate in 4 years when I build a custom home theatre in our home (currently a rental property and I won't be making many changes in acoustics because of it).

Norpus: say I go with the CA-5200 and forgo the Rotel, I will have an excellent base system but no HTM2D.
I never considered the new HT standard which you suggest, render buying the Classe SSP-600 or SSP-300, less worthwhile an investment. This coupled with the budget contraints suggests I go with the Rotel 1098. [I didn't know amps are more important than the SSP! thinking the latter add quality while the amp simply well 'amplifies' in my layman's understanding- need to spend more time on the forum which I did in early 2005 but my workload hasn't allowed it this year].

For surrounds, I have the pricing on the 700 series. Would the 705's (or 704's) work instead of the 600's?

System F: (base)
ELECTRICALS:
Classe CA-5200 $8000
ROTEL 1098 $2000

SPEAKERS:
B&W 802D $12000

= $22,000

SYSTEM F:
CENTER: HTM7 $1000 & Stand $500
REAR: mini-pods & LCR 60 (rear center?)

= $23,500

Currently all interconnects are totalling $2,000 including:
Speaker Cables $1100 (50m)
Audio Interconnects $250
Video Interconnects $650

(if these appear expensive I can put the money elsewhere - do I need interconnects between the Classe gear or does it come with those proprietary looking cables)
(also, I have a roll of very decent wiring left over (spent $1000 on all internonnects + wiring) from b-school days (2 years old) which I can utilize for wiring surrounds and existing sub and for conneting the Xbox, PS2, etc.; potentially saving another $1000 as I would only get premium wiring for the new speakers) Maybe better to focus on this after the main system is decided.


=$25,500

Can I use the ASW500 as my sub for a few years?
Will a phantom center be preferred over the HTM7. Many on the forum say how one really needs an htm2D center to pair with the 802Ds and other centers can leave much to be desired due to the high standards of the 800 series. Your suggestions on this?

Reading Sikoniko's comments I am leaning towards a "phantom" center unless I drop the CA-5200 for the RT-1090 making room for a HTM2D. However, keeping in mind my split of 75:25 (HT:music) I might feel the lack of a center.

What if:
Alternatively, I forgo the HTM7 (saving $1500) and pluggin in another $3000 to get the HTM2D but that would be really stretching my funds as I would have to take it out of my savings and that is something I did not consider- wifey will be ok but will do it only if really, really required. (No new sub, or rears, or projector, or DVD ofcourse- then again I can buy probably get away with the 42" plasma, and buy $2k sony or infocus within the next 6 months).


My gut feeling is not to involve stepping stones as you suggest Sikoniko. I am weary of losing money + the time factor involved, etc. having taken so long to get it in the first place I can't vouch that I'll go down that route in due course. Also, don't want the feeling that what items will have to be changed because they are stepping stones. As long as it is good enough for movie watching and the occasional music I will be happy. ONLY fear with this is that because I am NOT getting System A (which uses all Rotel + CA-3200, SIM2 35, and 803D, HTM2D, DS8/805's) I might not get a full HT experience BY chosing to use my pods.

I really like the 802D's... in fact they are gorgeous as someone pointed out and when I moved to the 803D's, I was kinda sad at not having the Marlin's... and I'm fixated with them at this point I guess. + the power is something I might want in a larger room and that they are a very long term investment whereas with the 803D's I might be inclined to change them.
(does this make sense? -really have no SQ backing my personal justification).

Thanks for your continued help and hope to finalize this soon. Look forward to your comments on the above.
The comments and advice are really opening new possibilities I never considered; it's very comforting to know that the community here is so helpful truly lifting the burden of making a potential mistake which I would only realize much later or when the system is finally in my home (especially as I can't demo it personally).
:

[B&W 700 Guy]

My preference is 75:25 (HT:music). It's going into a decidacte room for HT and not in a lounge. Current budget is $25k.

Earlier I was leaning on the 803D's, however I feel these might be inadeqate in 4 years when I build a custom home theatre in our home (currently a rental property and I won't be making many changes in acoustics because of it). :

Babar,

In 4 years from now there may be a new 800 series speaker that is better then the 802 that you will want to purchase. Seems to me if thats the best reason to buy 802s, I would not.

What hardware are you running now?

[babar]

SYSTEM G:

ELECTRICALS:
Classe CA-5200 $8000
ROTEL 1098 $2000

SPEAKERS:
BW 802D $12000
BW HTM2D + stand $5000

= $28,000

New equipment wiring: $500 [reasonable?]

BW ASW 500 (old)
BW LCR 60 S3 (old) [rear center?]
Interconnects (old) [monsterXP nw wiring and decent plugs]
Denon DVD 900 (old)

My wife has always been interested in the Video/screen part of the system. She said she wanted to chose the projector yesterday and I'm like.. well love that's just 10% of the budget we are spending on the rest (she doesn't mind not having the SIM2 because she would like the ability to place the projector where she wants and is assuming that in the next upgrade in 3 years we will get better video.

For the first time she began reading a little of this thread asking me loads of questions...

[babar]

B&W 700 Guy:

FYI: the answers to the questions you raised have already been answered in earlier posts. Clarification as to why I am leaning toward the 802D's follows:

The 803D's I feel will be inadequate in a new HT setting which I plan to build in a new house in 4 years because of the size of the room I plan on deidicating, and at that point do not want to wish I HAD invested in the 802D's to begin with.



best, Babar

[B&W 700 Guy]

B&W 700 Guy:

FYI: the answers to the questions you raised have already been answered in earlier posts. Clarification as to why I am leaning toward the 802D's follows:

The 803D's I feel will be inadequate in a new HT setting which I plan to build in a new house in 4 years because of the size of the room I plan on deidicating, and at that point do not want to wish I HAD invested in the 802D's to begin with.



best, Babar

Yes I understand that you want to purchase a speaker now for a possible issue in the future that you dont know if it will be an issue. Then I would buy the 800D/System H :E

Cheers