SCM1 - How much power needed?

**sikoniko** · 27 December 2004, 10:05 Monday

Geoff, I just sent you a PM inquiring about your system.. go figure...

My fist upgrade to nautilus was 805's and I felt that my 1055 powered them fine and that was only 75W. Im sure more power would have been better, but at the time ignorance was bliss!

As far as the SCM1's, I have them hooked up to my cinenova grande5, so I couldnt give an accurate observation.

Since there really are no matching drivers between the 2 models (no diamond tweeters in the SCMS), Im not sure it will really matter.

I was thinking though that if I didn't have a wedding to pay for, I could get a pair of 805's to use on the sides for a 7.1 setup. I wonder how cheap used ones will fall when the new series comes out. Was thinking I could just use the 1055 to power the SCM1's since they would be rears and push the 805's w/ the grande 5.

**Aussie Geoff** · 27 December 2004, 10:11 Monday

Sikoniko,

PM answered

I like your upgrade idea... (more B&Ws!) Of course you really should upgrade the RSX-1055 to something more like the RSP-1068 or the RSX-1067/1056 to get Dolby ProLogic IIx if you want to go 7.1... (upgraditus is an insidious disease!)

PS - It is good to see the wedding is still on even when you added up how much you had spent on Home Theater for your fiancé!

PPS - I'm sure the wedding is only a temporary hiccup on the upgraditus road to audio nirvana.

Geoff

**Twincam** · 27 December 2004, 10:33 Monday

Geoff,

I am sure that your RMB-1075 will do fine, spend your money on a good and powerful amp for the 803D's instead.. I am using 805's as surround speakers, connected to a RMB-1075, and it works fine.

The question of the 805S vs the SCMS .. Well, in a pure
2-channel setup the 805S would normally be the better choice, but as surround speakers, the differences is not so important maybe. A possible benefit of the new SCMs is that the tweeter is mounted below the bass/midrange, in difference to the 805S or the "old" SCM1.
If wall-mounted surrounds is not a "must" because of one reason or another, at least I would go for 805S. Unless you can pick up some of the "old" stuff for a good price.

I recently picked up a pair of new "old" SCM1 for almost half the list price(!) that I will use as surrounds.
I will then move the N805's to the fronts, which should work perfect with the HTM-2. I will then move my 804's to the living room for pure 2-channel setup, connected to either a Bryston 4B-SST, or if I can afford it, a Classe Delta CA-2200.

Cheers

TC

**sikoniko** · 27 December 2004, 12:07 Monday

like your upgrade idea... (more B&Ws!) Of course you really should upgrade the RSX-1055 to something more like the RSP-1068 or the RSX-1067/1056 to get Dolby ProLogic IIx if you want to go 7.1... (upgraditus is an insidious disease!)

I have decided that if I do upgrade my receiver in the near future, it will be to the Sherwood P-965, but I am going to hold out to see if they add HDMI first. As I said in the PM, I have some priorities in my personal life that the system will take a backseat to.

I am beginning to believe that it would be better to wait until the 2006 models come out anyways with the new DDHD and DTSHD coming with DVDHD.

PS - It is good to see the wedding is still on even when you added up how much you had spent on Home Theater for your fiancé!

She about fainted when I told her how much I had invested in my speakers already. She does think the SCM1's are cute though, with the "little ear blowers on top."

PPS - I'm sure the wedding is only a temporary hiccup on the upgraditus road to audio nirvana.

dont forget the house... then having kids... etc.

am sure that your RMB-1075 will do fine, spend your money on a good and powerful amp for the 803D's instead.. I am using 805's as sourround speakers, connected to a RMB-1075, and it works fine.

I agree here. An option you might want to consider is "pro" amps, such as Crown. They have high power ratings and are priced cheaper than traditional HT gear. If not, of course I highly recommend the Cinnenova Grande 5. Don't know if you would get the same deal on your hemisphere though...

The question of the 805S vs the SCMS .. Well, in a pure
2-channel setup the 805S would normally be the better choice, but as sourround speakers, the differences is not so important maybe. A possible benefit of the new SCMs is that the tweeter is mounted below the bass/midrange, in difference to the 805S or the "old" SCM1.
If wall-mounted surrounds is not a "must" because of one reason or another, at least I would go for 805S. Unless you can pick up some of the "old" stuff for a good price.

I actually prefer the idea of having the SCM(1,S) just to make it more like a theater. I have heard a 7.1 system w/ 4 SCM1's and a pair of 803's and it sounded great. Very seemless transition across all channels. The only reason I would get the 805's would be if there is no way to wall/ceiling mount them. They are heavier than I expected, so you will need a good stud to bolt them to.

Also, JLEE said he believe that the X-Over in the SCM's is a closer match to the 804's.

I have avoided multi-channel audio so I can not comment on that. I have over 400 CD's and I know i would just spend too much money if I had a system that supported it, though I really like the concept.

**jlee** · 27 December 2004, 18:29 Monday

>Also, JLEE said he believe that the X-Over in the SCM's is a closer match to the 804's.

Yes, that is correct... both at 4kHz... whereas the 805 is at 3KHz I believe... so I personally found the SCM1 sounded more like the 804 than the 805 did and matched better. I would go 4 SCM1 instead of 2 805 and 2 SCM1 as your rear and surround. Another advantage of the SCM1 is the 1dB higher efficiency... that 1dB does help... since u won't need as much power to make them play as loud..

Also, that was hilarious what your fiance said about the little ear blowers... where do women come up with this stuff??? Most people call them turkey basters... I didn't know there was such a thing as an ear blower... hahaha.

As for the power requirement, some people say to ignore the power ratings... I say there is some truth to that, but you can't completely ignore it... it is B&W's recommended power based on the drivers and their testing... you can use an amp that will put out a lot more than the recommended power and it likely won't blow the speaker if it's clean power... however, when u exceed the recommended rating, the sound (particularly the bass driver) can deteriorate. I run 200W into my SCM1 and for a whole movie and extended battle scenes (Gladiator, Lord of the Rings, etc.), they hold up just fine... however, if you listen closely, when there is prolonged deep bass, the woofer sounds like it's "struggling" and will actually make fluttery noises... so in terms of driver damage, a 200W amp is fine for an SCM1... in terms of better sound, that's when you need an HTM1 when u put more than 120W to the SCM1... I'm sure you could use a 250-300W amp on an SCM1, but at high levels over prolonged periods of time... damage could be possible... I've never tested it but common sense tells me that if the driver starts to sound like it's struggling, you probably shouldn't use too much more power over long periods of time on the speaker... I would say 250W is probably a good realistic maximum power to use on the SCM1 (double the recommended).

I know that Stereophile was using 1000W MF amps on 805 signatures, and that's fine... but that doesn't mean they were using the MF anywhere near their limits!! If they were, I would bet some damage would be done to the 805's.

**sikoniko** · 27 December 2004, 18:38 Monday

Also, that was hilarious what your fiance said about the little ear blowers... where do women come up with this stuff??? Most people call them turkey basters... I didn't know there was such a thing as an ear blower... hahaha.

Maybe that is a bad choice of words. You know, the little ear puffer thing you use on babies ears and noses to clean them out? anyways... my mom thought the tweeters on the 804's were microphones...

**jlee** · 27 December 2004, 18:44 Monday

yeah turkey basters and microphones are the 2 most common things people call them... u gotta watch out for the people who want to grab the thing off the speaker and start singing karaoke....

**EAmin** · 27 December 2004, 19:40 Monday

Geoff, whatta great way to start the new year. With a bang --- literally. Just wondering what you'll be using to drive the 803Ds and HTM2D. I'm assuming you are upgrading from the RB-1080.

Also was wondering what you all think about the SCMS in a 700 series system? I'm trying to look at all of my 7.1 options. I currently have Sig 7NTs in the ceiling that sound great. I could go with 705s mounted on the very back wall of my family room. However, I would rather go with something meant to be mounted on a wall. Not too keen about going with the DS7s as they seem to be getting "so-so" reviews. I can also get the SCMS' in Rosenut, which will match my 703s and HTM7. Probably too soon to tell, but an idea.

**Aussie Geoff** · 27 December 2004, 21:37 Monday

EAmin,

Thanks... Re your "what amplifier" question - I was in active Email discussion with B&W over this on Christmas eve... I am likely to get two RB-1090s one for the 803D and one (bi-amped) for the HTM2D... Apparently the 803Ds are more like the 802s in their demands for high current than the existing 803 and new 803S which can be driven nicely by a RB-1080... Still just working out whether the RB-1080 biamped would be enough for the HTM2D - but I suspect not... This all started me thinking about the amp for the rears - hence my question in the post...

PS - I see you have the RB-1090 and love it...

Re the SCMS question - I'd say absolutely - My local high end B&W dealer sells the old SCM1s for the same reason (combo being SCM1s for rears and 703 with HTM1 for front - had a great soundstage!

Geoff

**gostan** · 28 December 2004, 07:34 Tuesday

Geoff,

You may have a few visitors from the States to listen to your new 803D's, HTM2D & SCMS's system. Bi-amping the HTM2D with a 1090! Wow!! I am going to book my demo flight today.

Seriously, I wish you all of the best for the new year in puttting together your upgraded system. I hope that you do not have to wait too long in 05 for delivery.

Stan

**Twincam** · 28 December 2004, 09:09 Tuesday

Wow, a bi-amped 1090 for the HTM2D, center, that's a lot of power.... To be honest, I think that even a 1080 should be ok. The HTM2D center is almost like a 803S, but with the diamond tweeter of course. Did you consider a Bryston 6B-SST? 3x300W at 8 ohm. I think it should be able to power your future front and center speakers!? I was also in contact with B&W regarding the power requirements for the 803D. My question was if a 4B-SST (the 2-channel brother of 6B-SST) should be fine, and the answer I got was more or less yes, although they of course recommended Classe instead now when that is a part of the B&W Group. The dealer where I recently bought my SCM1s from told me that he did not believe that the 803D was as "power hungry" as the "old" 802, but that can be wrong of course.

Best regards

TC

**Aussie Geoff** · 28 December 2004, 09:16 Tuesday

Twincam,

The Aussie prices for Brystons are just silly - try $8549 for the Bryston 6BSST 3-channel power amplifier... So its way cheaper for me to get two RB-1090 than one of those...

I hope you are right re the HTM2D... The B&W folks were leaving on Christmas Eve as they answered and I owe them a follow up to be sure... Certainly they were very clear about the 803D being much more like the 802 in its demands for high current rather than the 803S... It was this that caused me to follow up re the HTM2D late in the day!

Geoff

**Rags** · 28 December 2004, 13:30 Tuesday

Also thinking of upgrading to the new series here. I have been offered a cracking deal on the 803D and HTM2D and am finding it hard to resist.

My concerns are around my power amp. I have a Halo A51 and I am not sure that this will have sufficient oomph to drive the speakers. I really dont want to change it and worst case I might just change to the new 803S speakers if the A51 will not be sufficient for the 803D's. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

**sikoniko** · 28 December 2004, 15:53 Tuesday

I would get the speakers. You can always get another A51 later and bi-amp. It may be more difficult/hassle to trade in later.

**Aussie Geoff** · 28 December 2004, 21:34 Tuesday

Rags,

I agree with Sikoniko, even B&W's own developers say that the 803Ds are amazing... The A51 amp will drive them fine (it can drive the current 802s quite well) and as pointed out by others - if you need more in the future, well there is always the second A51...

Geoff

**Steel** · 29 December 2004, 15:38 Wednesday

I use a pair of Signature SCM1s in a stereo setup with a velodyne sub. I use a Rotel Rx 1050 (100w) to drive them. I think they sound great. I have never had a problem although I am sure they could take more power.

Although B&W seems assured that the new SCMS are far better than the Signature SCMs, do people think that an additional upgrade (perhaps adding the diamonds) is in the near future?

**sikoniko** · 29 December 2004, 15:43 Wednesday

Although B&W seems assured that the new SCMS are far better than the Signature SCMs, do people think that an additional upgrade (perhaps adding the diamonds) is in the near future?

Being that 2006 is the anniversary year, My best guess is that a new signature line will come out then.

The nautilus has been out for awhile too... Im surprised there hasnt been an update to it. Wonder if there is anything in its future?

**Steel** · 30 December 2004, 00:59 Thursday

Does anyone know why they didn't put the diamonds in the other 800 series models?

**jlee** · 30 December 2004, 01:07 Thursday

>Does anyone know why they didn't put the diamonds in the other 800 series models?

It would have driven up the price of the other models... plus... this gives them an opportunity to "change it" during the lifespan of the models to prolong the life... by that time, maybe the cost of adding them would become cheaper and they could offer it as "trickle down" technology and not add to the price...

SCM1 - How much power needed?

SCM1 - How much power needed?

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