Tangband discussion thread

[jkrutke]

Thanks for the feedback- I have a pair of W4-1337 on the way, shipped on Monday, so with any luck I'll have a look at them this weekend. I'm looking for something that goes up clean a bit higher than average, so it will be interesting to see how they stack up against a 2" dome or 3" cone.

I thought I'd start a new thread to dump Tangband comments in. I tested the 25-1414 titanium tweeter. Not bad, but generally nothing special. Both the D26NC55 and Seas 27TAF are much better neo tweeters. The 25-1414 performs pretty close to the fabric version and it's obvious they share the same motor. Even the response curve is kinda similar. It's quite far off the smoothed and optimistic TB curve though. TB curves make me laugh - they squish them down vertically until their driver looks like a flat line.

I haven't seen a Tangband tweeter that I've liked in a while.

So, now I await your report on the W4-1337. TB seems to do a little better with their small woofers than their tweeters so there is some hope there.

I am very happy with the performance of the W5-704 and I'll likely do a design with it someday. Very smoooooth.

[fjhuerta]

I do, too.

I've always wondered about Tang Band drivers. Their specs look great, but I've learned they are, at best, "optimistic".

I found it interesting that they say the W4-1337 is a "full range" driver. Well, it is -sort of- but it has the usual metal cone break-up. I suppose it's a "full range" driver because it can get to 20 KHz. They do the same thing with the W4-657SB, which is even worse - it behaves mostly like a metal cone midwoofer would. It's completely unusable as a full range.

On the other hand, they have drivers like the W4-1320SB, which, IMHO, live up to their expectations. I wasn't able to measure this or the W4-1337 in terms of distortion (I have to upgrade that LSPCad), but in subjective terms, they had a very nice midrange sound. Interestingly enough, their construction was basically identical, except for the cone material.

I've always wondered whether Tang Band just takes baskets, cones and magnets and mixes them randomly, to see what works...

[JonMarsh]

Considering your enthusiasm, I'd have figured to see a test of the W5-704 on your site- does it have the impedance wrinkles that are shown in their plot, or do they just not know how to do a clean Z test? Didn't see it in your 5.5" tests. What's the sensitivity like?






Is this as it appears, based on a one watt drive?

[jkrutke]

I think my enthusiasm ends when it's time to update my web page. Adding drivers to all the html is kind of a pain. I've got data for about for 7 or 8 drivers waiting to be added. But here's the TB data:

Tangband 25-1414-FR:



Tangband 25-1414-HD:



Tangband 25-1414-CSD:

Image not available

W5-704S-FR:

Image not available

W5-704S-IMP:

Image not available

W5-704S-HD:

Image not available

W5-704S-CSD:

Image not available

W5-704S-TS:

Image not available

Tangband has the unique tendency of squashing the spl until it's a flat line, but amplifying the y axis impedence until every wobble looks like a mountain range. In my impedance closeup of the W5, you can see a little bit of something at 1200 but it's not bad at all. I still didn't zoom in quite as much as TB does though.

Now, the non-linear performance of the W5 is nothing too special. But it is as good as the Silverflute W14 without the nasty breakup. It's a driver that can cross over higher, thereby not requiring a $30+ tweeter with low end balls. For $22, not bad. I've hacked one open to see the motor. No copper anywhere, but it does have a 5mm extended pole piece which should help a bit.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for sharing-I can understand your enthusiasm for a great bang for the buck system, the only real trick being picking the crossover frequency for integration issues, and a very simple crossover, I'd expect.

Ought to be very easy to work with, and capable of a nice clean 3 kHz crossover.

MTM with D26CN55?

A great possibility for a budget HT speaker with 80 Hz HP crossover.

[nerd of nerds]

I'm somewhat curious as to the obsession here lately with using discontinued drivers...I realize that its a really really awesome tweeter, especially for the small fee...

What about the new neo tweeter offereings from tymphany? Are they just not available for purchase yet?

[jkrutke]

I'm somewhat curious as to the obsession here lately with using discontinued drivers...I realize that its a really really awesome tweeter, especially for the small fee...

What about the new neo tweeter offereings from tymphany? Are they just not available for purchase yet?

It's just an obsession with good performance. With Madisound having the foresight to get one huge last batch in, I don't think the supply of D26NC55's is anything to worry about for 2 years.

The Neo XT25 doesn't perform as well as the D26NC55 or the standard flange XT25 for that matter.

[nerd of nerds]

It's just an obsession with good performance. With Madisound having the foresight to get one huge last batch in, I don't think the supply of D26NC55's is anything to worry about for 2 years.

The Neo XT25 doesn't perform as well as the D26NC55 or the standard flange XT25 for that matter.

I realize that its an obsession with good performance, but I really think that there could be more viable, long term options out there...however, having learned that madisound might have a big ol batch of them I'm less worried now.

I am curious, however, if you will post your project using them. I was really interested in that one back when you were originally posting teaser pictures of it. Wasn't the proposed design a a mmtmmw using the D26NC55, RS125S, and a subwoofer?

[cjd]

The problem is *always* "how long will this particular driver combo exist"

Look at the Dayton BR-1: how many iterations of that "same" tweeter have they been through?

Until you're getting drivers made for you, to your spec, and are responsible for when any particular driver lives or dies, you are going to run into this scenario in one form or another. It's just how it works.

C

[JonMarsh]

The W4-1337's arrived today- like most 4-5" drivers, rear masking would be a real b*tch with conventional baffles- definitely a gonna have some use for those 1/4" panels from McMaster-Carr.



Nice construction, from the front looks expensive and with tight tolerances; the cast frame looks OK. If the non-linear distortion is at least "decent" down to 300 Hz, these are a good candidate for the M10ta. Hoping they're usable 350 - 3 kHz with not too steep slopes (no more than 3rd order all pass- and staying away from 1/3 the start of breakup).

[jdybnis]

A couple years ago when I first got into this hobby tang-band was great because they offered decent performance for really low prices. But since then their prices have been steadily rising. They aren't such a bargain anymore and quality hasn't substantially improved. For the price of that 4" you can get the Seas L12RCY and for 30% more you can get the Peerless 4" HDS Exclusive!

[Jim Holtz]

The W4-1337's arrived today- like most 4-5" drivers, rear masking would be a real b*tch with conventional baffles- definitely a gonna have some use for those 1/4" panels from McMaster-Carr.



Nice construction, from the front looks expensive and with tight tolerances; the cast frame looks OK. If the non-linear distortion is at least "decent" down to 300 Hz, these are a good candidate for the M10ta. Hoping they're usable 350 - 3 kHz with not too steep slopes (no more than 3rd order all pass- and staying away from 1/3 the start of breakup).

Hi Jon,

I have a collection of these myself waiting to go into my next project. I'm eagerly awaiting your test results! ;x(

BTW. I was also impressed with the build quality of these drivers. They are very well made.

Thanks for you hard work!

Jim

[capslock]

Jim, I checked HH magazine, no reviews of this particular driver (but lots of other W4s).

[JonMarsh]

A couple years ago when I first got into this hobby tang-band was great because they offered decent performance for really low prices. But since then their prices have been steadily rising. They aren't such a bargain anymore and quality hasn't substantially improved. For the price of that 4" you can get the Seas L12RCY and for 30% more you can get the Peerless 4" HDS Exclusive!

I think I understand where you're coming from here, and mostly agree, BUT for purposes of testing the Duelund concept, I'm curious to try to find a driver that is pretty clean from 400 Hz to 8 kHz for a midrange, though the near full power operating range will be narrower (more like 600Hz to 3 kHz). That's not easy...

The 881 has it's peak and problem area below 10 kHz, centered around 8 kHz...




This may (or may not) be more usable, just have to see...




(a quick measurement by Darren Kuzma)

I'll probably order a pair of 881's soon anyway.

[capslock]

Is that a cone edge resonance at 900 Hz? Seems a tad low for a 4 in driver.

In terms of cleanliness of FR and CSD (according to the HobbyHifi MLSSA measurements), the L12 is probably the best 4 in driver around, with the RS125 and W12 close on its heels. And its motor can be upgraded to Excel standard by taking apart the magnet system and adding two copper rings. Well, that's probably not for everybody, so again RS125 ends up being the bang for buck champion.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, I checked HH magazine, no reviews of this particular driver (but lots of other W4s).

Thanks Eric. I appreciate your effort!

Jim

[fjhuerta]

I found the files from my previous TB project.

I took the FR on a 48x20 cms baffle. The speaker measurements were taken at 1M, 6ms, on tweeter axis (in the middle of the baffle), both woofers firing (MTM design).

The impedance plot is from both drivers in parallel.

I never took individual measurements of each, but I suppose these measurements may give an indication of their performance.

[jkrutke]

Wow, that TB Titanium sure does roll off early. It almost looks like it's more of a midrange rather than a 4" woofer. On the bright side maybe we get some good sensitivity out of it.

Capslock: I've got the Seas L12 in use in a 4.5" 2 way system. It's the lowest linear distortion driver of this size that I've tested. The response and impedance curves are completely featureless other than the Le rolloff and breakup. I wouldn't call it the best 4" though. The RS125 beats it by a good margin in the non-linear dept. Kinda similar to the L18 vs the RS180 actually. I'm not sure at this point which I like better, but I can say which price I like better.

Anyway, I'm considering which 4-4.5" woofer could potentially replace my Audax Mini design since those are now unobtainium. The TB looks like there's not enough there in the bass dept.

Nerd: that MMTMMW you mentioned has been through several iterations over the last year and a half that I've been working on it. (sparsely on and off) The only thing that's for sure is that it will use the RS125 if it ever gets finished. I'm a little more cautious about announcing projects these days since I'm pretty unlikely to finish anything I start.

[JonMarsh]

I'm a little more cautious about announcing projects these days since I'm pretty unlikely to finish anything I start.

Now there's a man I could learn a thing or two from.... :rofl:

[jdybnis]

Is that a cone edge resonance at 900 Hz? Seems a tad low for a 4 in driver.

In terms of cleanliness of FR and CSD (according to the HobbyHifi MLSSA measurements), the L12 is probably the best 4 in driver around, with the RS125 and W12 close on its heels. And its motor can be upgraded to Excel standard by taking apart the magnet system and adding two copper rings. Well, that's probably not for everybody, so again RS125 ends up being the bang for buck champion.

What gives the L12 a better response than the W12? Is it the cone material? It doesn't make sense that Seas would use their best cones with inferior motors and their best motors with inferior cones.

[capslock]

Well, the L12 is the leader of the pack when it comes to linear distortion, but the W12 is only a little bit behind. Maybe with a larger number of samples, the W12 would come out slightly ahead.

The 12 cm drivers are the only ones of the series where the higher damping of the mag cone does not translate into a clear advantage - maybe because damping it is not needed with a small diameter?

I have no idea why they are not offering a L12 with an Excel motor. Either they consider the advantage of the small alu cone insignificant or they don't want to damage the reputation of the mag cones?

If it amounts to anything, Audio Physik are using OEM versions of the L12 a lot, and they have an aluminum phase plug, so it is not a wild guess that the lower shorting ring is also there.

As I said, upgrading the L12 to Excel standard is not too difficult. Seas have been nice enough to use eco-friendly glues...

[jkrutke]

The W4-1337's arrived today

Well, after reading this I'm even more curious how they perform.

[cjd]

that tweeter looks to be a T-B also (in the link)

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, looks like that one with the titanium dome - the 25-1414SC with what John suspects is the same mediocre motor as one he tested.

[cjd]

Yup. That's what has me convinced I need to get-a-writing on the blurbs and sell speakers for a living.

except that... well... yeah. I don't want to ruin a fun and enjoyable hobby, you know?

Would need a shop and tools, which would take money, and I hate loans and hate looking for financial backing other ways even more... strings attached suck.

Maybe I'll stick to attending concerts. Like the one last night. (Barber Adagio, Strauss Oboe concerto, Beethoven 7). Or tonight (excerpts from Prokofiev's Cinderella, Rachmaninov's Piano #3).

C

[JonMarsh]

Who's performing those in your area?

[cjd]

The former was the Lake Forest Symphony - local group. Quite good considering. That oboe concerto is a study in misery if you breathe with the musician. Barber, pretty good pacing but he gave no chance to breathe, a bit run-on.

The latter is the Milwaukee Symphony. They're the best in the area right now, really doing some superb work. (yes, better than the Chicago Symphony). And while a bit noisy and clueless (clapping at the wrong time on occasion) Milwaukee audiences are very good - last night I was reminded of performing in Japan, given the response after the Rach. And that's saying something.

Interesting addendum, MSO is the first US orchestra doing stuff on iTunes, and now direct on their website (mso.org) - but they have been using this binaural microphone setup, a pair of omni-directional mics in ear canals of a modeled head, supposed to turn headphone listening directly into a "being there" experience. Those're going to start showing up on their website soon too.

After last night's MSO concert I realize I just don't have any dynamic range available yet in a playback system. And I can say Adam Golka is going to make some noise - he's 19 right now and hopefully never develops any degenerative diseases in his hands, 'cause man can he pound a piano.

C

[JonMarsh]

They have a pretty interesting MP3 store on their own site- do you know if any of their recording are available on CD- didn't see it on the site with my cursory look. Never mind, just found the CD's in the "other merchandise" area.

Too bad it's unlikely one my frequent business trips to Minnepolis will ever sync up with a performing date, but I'll check out some of the MP3's and CD's.

~Jon

[cjd]

One of the things that I find interesting is that MSO makes the CSO seem doddering - the amount of grey/white hair in the orchestra is surprising by comparison. Similarly, their playing just seems to lake the energy and precision - MSO folks seem genuinely excited to be playing still.

You'd be smarter swinging up from O'Hare - it's a couple hours drive tops - closer than Minneapolis.

To my memory of performance, Cleveland was a bit more finished than Milwaukee, but I've not heard them recently and MSO has been getting better. Chicago still has the pull for some performers Milwaukee doesn't (Yo Yo Ma for example) but they get a lot (I've seen Hillary Hahn, Joshua Bell, Gil Shaham (whose style I detest) in Milwaukee).

It's fun living right between 'em so I can pick and choose. It's one thing that makes some of the headaches of this location so worthwhile.

C

[aprilia88]

This is another project that has been sitting on the shelf for a long time. I still need to cut the bevels on the front (ala m8ta). And sand and sand and sand. Any thoughts on cross over design? I am thinking Lr2@2.5k (about) with the BG and then make the tb 1320's fit with a 2.5 topology. Then power the tb 6" woofers with a plate amp because of the mismatch in efficiency. I can't take any measurements until my new dongle comes in. I stuffed my laptop into my bag with the dongle still in the port. oops. thanks you for any input. I am addicted to this site.

[Evil Twin]

Nice Aprilla... an impressive V-Twin. A 2.5 topology may do the trick- will you series the additional inductor? 2.5 kHz sounds about right.

[Evil Twin]

Well, after reading this I'm even more curious how they perform.

The Emperor is not pleased with the delays, but accepts that the relocation of the Imperial laboratory has some unavoidable consequences.


First, measured SPL and phase on a 2' X 2' baffle with short window (1.6 msec) to avoid room and baffle effects.


Clearly a potential candidate for an extended top range mid driver, rivaling dome midrange units.



Next, HD2 measured at 1 Watt with an 8 msec window, so that lower frequencies can be seen (using Praxis Flex window mode).


Not as low as might be liked, but probably usable.


Last, HD3 level, which gives more clues about how hard it's working at 87 dB output...


Not at the levels which a Peerless 830883 achieves over a narrow frequency range, but nonetheless impressive... most impressive. Probably very usable wtih 3-5 kHz crossover with LR4 or better. Certainly an extended range for a cone device in it's price range.

[Nathan P]

Binaural recordings are COOL! I listened to some from a site I frequent for recording stuff, and there were some concert recordings, and when someone would yell in the background I'd look around thinking my mom was calling me :B

The former was the Lake Forest Symphony - local group. Quite good considering. That oboe concerto is a study in misery if you breathe with the musician. Barber, pretty good pacing but he gave no chance to breathe, a bit run-on.

The latter is the Milwaukee Symphony. They're the best in the area right now, really doing some superb work. (yes, better than the Chicago Symphony). And while a bit noisy and clueless (clapping at the wrong time on occasion) Milwaukee audiences are very good - last night I was reminded of performing in Japan, given the response after the Rach. And that's saying something.

Interesting addendum, MSO is the first US orchestra doing stuff on iTunes, and now direct on their website (mso.org) - but they have been using this binaural microphone setup, a pair of omni-directional mics in ear canals of a modeled head, supposed to turn headphone listening directly into a "being there" experience. Those're going to start showing up on their website soon too.

After last night's MSO concert I realize I just don't have any dynamic range available yet in a playback system. And I can say Adam Golka is going to make some noise - he's 19 right now and hopefully never develops any degenerative diseases in his hands, 'cause man can he pound a piano.

C

[Jim Holtz]

Not at the levels which a Peerless 830883 achieves over a narrow frequency range, but nonetheless impressive... most impressive. Probably very usable wtih 3-5 kHz crossover with LR4 or better. Certainly an extended range for a cone device in it's price range.

Evil Twin,

Thank you for the most impressive driver tests. I like you had hoped for a little lower numbers but all in all, I'm pleased with the results. I think it'll fit my needs. :T

Jed, if you read this, how does the distortion of the W4-1337S compare to the Ti100?

Evil Twin, thank you again for your efforts and contributions to the DIY community. ;x(

Jim

[Jed]

TI100- Levels of 2nd order distortion and 3rd order distortion are less than 0.3% from 150HZ-2.3k. Tested at 85DB in K&T magazine.

Jed

[Mark K]

The Emperor is not pleased with the delays, but accepts that the relocation of the Imperial laboratory has some unavoidable consequences.


First, measured SPL and phase on a 2' X 2' baffle with short window (1.6 msec) to avoid room and baffle effects.

1.6ms

:tomato:

Oh Evil twin, how will you ever pick up minor disturbances in the force with this resolution...?

[Jim Holtz]

Next, HD2 measured at 1 Watt with an 8 msec window, so that lower frequencies can be seen (using Praxis Flex window mode).


Not as low as might be liked, but probably usable.


Last, HD3 level, which gives more clues about how hard it's working at 87 dB output...


Not at the levels which a Peerless 830883 achieves over a narrow frequency range, but nonetheless impressive... most impressive. Probably very usable wtih 3-5 kHz crossover with LR4 or better. Certainly an extended range for a cone device in it's price range.

Evil Twin,

Can you share any thoughts about why the W4-1337S has the distortion "bubble" from 300 - 1000 Hz? It strikes me that it should really be crossed similar to a mid dome to minimize the under 1K distortion. Am I looking as this correctly?

TI100- Levels of 2nd order distortion and 3rd order distortion are less than 0.3% from 150HZ-2.3k. Tested at 85DB in K&T magazine.

Jed

Jed, Thank you for the feedback. Based on your post, it seems the TB is better above 2K but not as good as the TI100 below 1K.

Thanks for the feedback, gentleman. I appreciate it. :T

Jim

[Evil Twin]

1.6ms

:tomato:

Oh Evil twin, how will you ever pick up minor disturbances in the force with this resolution...?

It is all those nearby disturbances including the effects of the baffle loading which I have been seeking to avoid, while at 6" getting a response profile that looks very much like the very nearfield response (1"). With flex windowing on , there's enough useful low end extension to get a more complete response curve.

One does see the limitation of this window if an attempt is made at distortion measuremet- then you're limited to 800Hz and up. For a midrange driver where the area of interest is 300-400 Hz and up, and exlusion of baffle mounting effects is desired, the effects are clear.

Not an innovation on my part, it was suggested for trial by jdybnis.

And in the case I'm not clear, when I suggest a driver working range, this includes the passband and the transition band- as good control in the crossover region is necessary. So, the lower crossover point, depending on slope, should probably be in the 600 Hz region for this driver, not much lower than a dome, depending on the SPL target of the finished speaker (an 8" or 10" woofer). For a smaller system, if it were combined with a single 7" woofer, perhaps 400-450 Hz. But not with a 2nd order crossover.

Can you share any thoughts about why the W4-1337S has the distortion "bubble" from 300 - 1000 Hz? It strikes me that it should really be crossed similar to a mid dome to minimize the under 1K distortion. Am I looking as this correctly?

I suspect this is partly an artifact resulting from the dipole mounting for testing and the poor rear window of this driver which results in a conventional baffle of 3/4". I think for optimal results one needs to mount this driver on a 1/4" machined aluminum plate- I've seen the same issue in the 80's with 5" Seas drivers, which is why I usually have little interest in small cone drivers, due to the mounting complications resulting from their chasis design.

In any case, evaluation of distortion for any application should include mounting in the subject application baffle/enclosure, as BSC can even put substantial additional demands if used in the midrange crossover- one reason Wilson Audio often uses asymmetrial crossover types putting the onus for BSC on the woofer, not the 7" midrange.

[aprilia88]

I am honored that the Emperor himself approves my motorbike and my preliminary thoughts on my x-over. I will provide some graph's for critiquing.

[jkrutke]

Thanks for the test results. It does look good so far. Would I be risking a choke hold if I asked what the measured Fs was, or any other T/S numbers you could pop out? Still kinda wondering if this driver could make it in a miniature 2-way.

[Evil Twin]

I have not investigated those items in detail yet- as my interest was primarily for a midrange. Later this coming week I should be able to complete those measurements, with Z curve and the like. For now, this afternoon I must do the Emperor's bidding.

I will comment that this driver sounds more like headphones playing the test sweep than any other I have tested, so I think it may be very useful in the right application- perhaps for a very simple application (such as a Bose satelite killer) with just a notch filter for the upper end. Of course, Sd and Xmax limitations must be considered.

[fjhuerta]

I built an MTM out of these drivers... they had an incredibly sweet midrange. I paired them with a set of RS28a's, and crossed them at 2 KHz. The mids were so good, in fact, I was tempted to cross them even higher.

The box was pretty big, though ( 35 x 45 x 20 cms). Sealed or ported, they sounded pretty much the same, so I sealed them.

[69Stingray]

I am very happy with the performance of the W5-704 and I'll likely do a design with it someday. Very smoooooth.

I have started a design using the W5-704s. I will be using it with the Dayton Planar Tweeter (I know, not the best planar, but I got it for a really good price), so I want to try a crossover around 4 kHz.

The freq. is modeled using the FRD tools and the Freq. response as supplied by Zaph|Audio (thanks Zaph! :P ). Assumes a 9.75" wide x 14.68" tall baffle. Not sure if it is my final size or not.

Crossover is a 3rd order @ 4,000 Hz, Zobel Network plus RL contour to flatten out the response. The hump @ tuning is about 1.5 dB and the hump @ 1,500 Hz is about 2 dB.

Comments?

[Evil Twin]

Thanks for the test results. It does look good so far. Would I be risking a choke hold if I asked what the measured Fs was, or any other T/S numbers you could pop out? Still kinda wondering if this driver could make it in a miniature 2-way.

Here is an impedance curve- Fs a little over 80 Hz. This was not free air, but mounted on a baffle; the slight blip at 500 Hz is most likely due to the front to rear transition and some peaking.




Due to the apparent low mass of the diaphragm and possible fragility, I was not inclined to attempt a mass added T/S evaluation. My gloved hands tend to be somewhat clumsy handling drivers of this size...

[drBass]

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread - I was considering the TB neo tweet in lieu of the Vifa. John - have you measured the Chinese variant of that vifa?