I've made the jump to HD discs. Have you? (HD-DVD/Blu-Ray)

[George Bellefontaine]

Fence, schmence. I just want ONE standard. :storm:

Or that universal player, whichever comes first.

I'd go for either.

[EDS]

I was given Superman Returns HD-DVD/SD-DVD combo and now I can't stop thinking about buying a player. The SD transfer looks great though.

[Nolan B]

I was given Superman Returns HD-DVD/SD-DVD combo and now I can't stop thinking about buying a player. The SD transfer looks great though.

Buy a Toshiba A2 for $4-500 today, then go to Future Shop between the 26th and 31st and take advantage of their "buy 2 HD DVDs and get 1 free" promo and build your library with with.

Whats the worst that can happen? Either a combo player comes out and you get to watch HD content today and loose nothing, OR HD DVD closes shop and you stll have a working player with great content and you have to one day eat the cost of buying another player.

For me HD DVD has been a relatively small investment with respect to th whole home theater experience.

[Chris D]

Wow, good deal there at Future Shop, it looks like.

Funny Christmas. My in-laws gave me some various movies. Gave me "Ice Age 2" on BD, (which is one of the BEST BD movies out there for picture quality) some SD DVD's, and then V for Vendetta on HD-DVD. They have no idea what HD movie formats are, they just picked them out and bought them. Just so happens that I have a BD player in the PS3, so that works great. But I don't have an HD-DVD player. I'm sure this happened countless times to various people today on Christmas, that well-intentioned friends and family bought movies for people, not knowing what HD formats are, and those people not having a player.

So now I have my first HD-DVD movie too, and nothing to play it on. Hmmmm... does this mean I need to go out and get a HD-DVD player too? :roll:

[George Bellefontaine]

So now I have my first HD-DVD movie too, and nothing to play it on. Hmmmm... does this mean I need to go out and get a HD-DVD player too? :roll:

Oh oh. Look out rack, another something's on the way.

[JonMarsh]

Wow, good deal there at Future Shop, it looks like.

Funny Christmas. My in-laws gave me some various movies. Gave me "Ice Age 2" on BD, (which is one of the BEST BD movies out there for picture quality) some SD DVD's, and then V for Vendetta on HD-DVD. They have no idea what HD movie formats are, they just picked them out and bought them. Just so happens that I have a BD player in the PS3, so that works great. But I don't have an HD-DVD player. I'm sure this happened countless times to various people today on Christmas, that well-intentioned friends and family bought movies for people, not knowing what HD formats are, and those people not having a player.

So now I have my first HD-DVD movie too, and nothing to play it on. Hmmmm... does this mean I need to go out and get a HD-DVD player too? :roll:

Decisions, decisions. I'd say just go do it with one of the new 2nd Gen, though if you're hesitating real deals can be found on 1st gen players still, here and there, until the stock is all gone. You'll need to update firmware for the 1st gen to get the best results, but that can be found on line. Toshiba also sends out disks.

[Chris D]

Hmmm... what's the best HD-DVD player to buy then, on the market now or about to come out? I'm not going to even consider something $$$.

I got an E-mail today that Buy.com's big sales deal ends today. $20 off a $50 purchase, which is $40 off. Free shipping, too. I used it to buy a bunch of Blu-Rays. Perhaps if I'm considering HD-DVD now, I should use it to buy some of those?

[Nolan B]

I know that some Best Buys are offering two free HD DVDs with the purchase of the A2. If you want something ceap and good then i would go for the xbox Add on if you have the 360.

The A2 is $400 but doesnt have analog ouputs so it does not support the next gen sound that way (mind you the BD pioneer elite is $1500 and doesnt support the next gen sound either). It does have faster load time however,

The XA2 due out in a couple of weeks is the HD DVD flaghsip and will likely be $1000.

The A1 (if you can find it) is still a great buy, with having slow load times as its main draw back. HDMI, analog outputs (supports all sound formats), will continue to get firmware updates until 2008, and can be found for less then $400.

[Evil Twin]

I've got an DH-XA1 (slightly better build quality and backlit remote) and an XBOX360 HD-DVD add on. If you have the Xbox360 already, that's the least expensive way to go. (~$200). The first gen players are slow in load time, but they do have built in decoding for new formats, and with a little searching can be found inexpensive.

With the lower cost 2nd gen, you'll get the new format audio downcoverted to SPDIF or PCIM on HDMI. Depending on your system configuration, that may be just find- I'm runnning analog in from the 1st gen player, though. Sure does sound good....

[David Meek]

So now I have my first HD-DVD movie too, and nothing to play it on. Hmmmm... does this mean I need to go out and get a HD-DVD player too? :roll:

Many more questions like that and we're gonna revoke your HT-addict membership.

Oh oh. Look out rack, another something's on the way.

I think you summed things up nicely, George.

[Brandon B]

I think Evil Twin is right Chris. You really need an XBox 360 and add-on drive, that way you have both HD disc formats AND both gaming platforms covered. Kill 4 birds with 2 stones.

BB

[Chris D]

Heheee... and I have no more time, no more money, no more life, and no more wife.

I actually thought about the X360 and HD-DVD add-on, but I still wouldn't get the multichannel output to utilize new HD sound formats. I looked around for HD-DVD players today, and all I could find was the HD-A2 at both my Circuit City and Best Buy for $499. BB does come with two free HD-DVD movies. But the A2 still doesn't have multichannel outs, either.

Am I correct in seeing that NO HD-DVD player today outputs 1080p? Whazzup with that?

Yes, perhaps I'd jump into HD-DVD if I could find one cheaper, perhaps a A1 that nobody wants or something.

[Nolan B]

Heheee... and I have no more time, no more money, no more life, and no more wife.

I actually thought about the X360 and HD-DVD add-on, but I still wouldn't get the multichannel output to utilize new HD sound formats. I looked around for HD-DVD players today, and all I could find was the HD-A2 at both my Circuit City and Best Buy for $499. BB does come with two free HD-DVD movies. But the A2 still doesn't have multichannel outs, either.

Am I correct in seeing that NO HD-DVD player today outputs 1080p? Whazzup with that?

Yes, perhaps I'd jump into HD-DVD if I could find one cheaper, perhaps a A1 that nobody wants or something.

that xbox Add on outputs 1080p via its VGA connection. I am no sure about the A2, but know the XA2 will.

[gianni]

Boy, youse guys are sure making it hard for me to stay on the fence.

Hang in there George. For me the fence is where I'll stay for a while longer. Even if I don't hold out until the format war is over, the players themselves leave much to be desired. Considering they cost $500-1000+, the build quality is poor and they have bugs and lack the full feature set most people will want very soon (they don't support everything the new formats will offer). There have been several reviews offering this opinion - the latest being What HiFi .
Their stance is - don't jump in yet.

I don't know how long this format war will linger so I can't at this point in time say how long I'll wait. One thing that is a must for me is that the price/quality ratio of the players will have to improve. Another thing that might change my mind is if someone like Denon enters the picture. The fact that they were in no big hurry to enter the HD race speaks volumes to me. The other thing that bolsters my patience is viewing SD from a good quality source like some of the better Denon players. Yes, it is still not HD, but they can produce an excellent picture. The HD images are in general better. However, I have yet to see one that is leaps and bounds better. Rather, too me, they are incrementally better. I am glad these other boys on this thread are paving the
way for us. Without them buying now, we may never see those 3rd, 4th, or 5th gen players which I hope will move closer to our expectations.

[Chris D]

(what I meant in my previous post is that if I keep buying all this junk, I WOULD have no life, money, etc)

Vancouver, I did see that the upcoming XA2 has HDMI 1.3 and 1080p, and actually has multichannel analog outs, which just about EVERYBODY needs to take advantage of the new sound technologies. Too bad it's a pricy player.

Thinking realistically after I came home from window shopping last night, I've already got the BD player in the PS3, that's more than enough to get me through this early stage of HD discs. I'll just hold on to my V for Vendetta HD-DVD unopened and wait for the formats to settle and players to improve before I progress any further, methinks.

[Charles]

I have been on the fence as well until today. Picked up an A1 open box at BB for $300 plus they threw in a $30 gift card which I spent on a King Kong HD DVD. Hopefully it will do SD as well as my Oppo, be a worthy CD player transport plus have at least broadcast HD quality with the HD disc's. If not BB said I could return it. Looking foward to getting it in the mix tomorrow, I figured it won't get much cheaper for a while.

[Race Car Driver]

I have been on the fence as well until today. Picked up an A1 open box at BB for $300 plus they threw in a $30 gift card which I spent on a King Kong HD DVD. Hopefully it will do SD as well as my Oppo, be a worthy CD player transport plus have at least broadcast HD quality with the HD disc's. If not BB said I could return it. Looking foward to getting it in the mix tomorrow, I figured it won't get much cheaper for a while.

Thats a pretty sweet price IMO. :T

[Eddie Horton]

I've been an HD DVD owner since April 25, and love it. Batman Begins And King Kong look stunning. Wow, six posts in nearly two years.....I'm on a roll.

[Race Car Driver]

I just checked out my price on the A2 through work... tempting...

Maybe I should just make the switch.

[Nolan B]

I have been on the fence as well until today. Picked up an A1 open box at BB for $300 plus they threw in a $30 gift card which I spent on a King Kong HD DVD. Hopefully it will do SD as well as my Oppo, be a worthy CD player transport plus have at least broadcast HD quality with the HD disc's. If not BB said I could return it. Looking foward to getting it in the mix tomorrow, I figured it won't get much cheaper for a while.

Great price, and it will upconvert as good as most. Using as a CD player may be a little frustrating becuase of load times.

[Nolan B]

I just checked out my price on the A2 through work... tempting...

Maybe I should just make the switch.

I believe Best Buy is offering 2 free HD DVDs with the purchase of a A2.

[Eric_C]

I still need the new sound formats on HDMI or something similar.

I already do SACD and DVD-A over my analogs...I can't have two analog devices unless they come out with a HD-DVD, DVD-A, and SACD player all in one with analog.

I'm more than happy with analog because of the digital bass management debacle.

[Charles]

Not off to a very good intoduction into HD. Seem the A1 I picked up yesterday won't play a King Kong HD DVD. After a call to Toshiba, it seems I need the later firmware which will take a week or 2 to get here. Kinda bummed, really don't want to gamble another DVD purchase until I am sold. Trying to decide to wait or get back on the fence. Does anyone know if regular firmware updates are required to keep up with the newer movies as they are introduced? If so, how long are these players going to be supported? My prepro does not do HDMI, so the A2 is not a good option.

[Nolan B]

Not off to a very good intoduction into HD. Seem the A1 I picked up yesterday won't play a King Kong HD DVD. After a call to Toshiba, it seems I need the later firmware which will take a week or 2 to get here. Kinda bummed, really don't want to gamble another DVD purchase until I am sold. Trying to decide to wait or get back on the fence. Does anyone know if regular firmware updates are required to keep up with the newer movies as they are introduced? If so, how long are these players going to be supported? My prepro does not do HDMI, so the A2 is not a good option.

Yes you do need version 2.0, but you dont have to wait 2 weeks. You can plug your A1 into the net and download version 2.0 in less then 10 min.

Let me know if you need a hand.

*Make sure no disc is in the A1 when doing the update as it causes a problem which cant be fixed without sending the A1 in.

[Charles]

Hi Vancouver, thanks for your offer. I just got off the phone with a Toshiba rep working with me on this. We tried several different attempts with no success. They asked me to try it again after 4 P.M. and if it didn't work then I'll have to wait for the disc. He said the 4 P.M. was some kind of possible server issue they were having. I'll try it again then and may look you up for ideas.

[Chris D]

I believe Best Buy is offering 2 free HD DVDs with the purchase of a A2.

Yes, and Toshiba is offering an ADDITIONAL free 3 movies on top of that with purchase of a HD-DVD player. Good way to start.

Eric_C, I've resigned myself that if I were to get another HD player of some sort, I'm going to need a multichannel analog switcher like Zektor before I'm able to get HDMI 1.3 technology in a processor.

[gross30]

I've had the A1 since it came out. In the spring I'll go for the XA2 w/ 1080p and HDMI 1.3. The first gen player will make it's way to the wife's ht room. Nice way to upgrade.

[Eric_C]

If HDMI 1.3 is a transport for True HD Audio then I'll pick one of them up which will leave me with analog for DVD-a/SACD/2.1.

I just won't enjoy it until I get the 1.3 receiver.

[LEVESQUE]

I don't know why people are obsessing with HDMI 1.3. You DON'T have to wait for HDMI 1.3 for anything!

Here's a quote from my friend Bob Pariseau on another forum:

"HDMI V1.3 is marketing fluff and hype intended to convince people to replace stuff they now own faster than they otherwise would. There is no point in waiting for HDMI V1.3 nor in paying a premium for it over a proper implementation of HDMI V1.1 or V1.2

HDMI V1.3 *WILL* let players pass "bitstream", i.e., undecoded, versions of the new format audio codecs to the receivers for decoding. But what the industry is hoping you won't find out until it is too late is that this is a feature you will not be able to take advantage of!

Unlike standard DVDs, the new format DVDs implement something called the "advanced content" feature set. It is up to each studio to decide whether or not a given disc is authored in "advanced content" mode. And here's the big secret: A disc authored for "advanced content" *MUST* have its audio codecs decoded IN THE PLAYER regardless of whether you have HDMI V1.3 and regardless of what your receiver might be able to do.

The reason is that the "advanced content" stuff includes various types of audio mixing that have to happen inside the player, and which can't happen until after the audio codec is decoded. And this is true EVEN IF you are not actually using any of those features at the moment.

Any commercial disc which is NOT authored for "advanced content" will be at a disadvantage in the marketplace. Think of the loss of menu audio during playback or the loss of picture in picture commentary tracks. And thus it is highly likely that virtually all commercial discs will be "advanced content" discs. This is ALREADY true for HD-DVD discs, and is only not true for Blue Ray discs because the authoring tools used by the studios are lagging a bit behind. Advanced Content will be the norm for Blue Ray discs as early as 2007.

So what you need to do is to buy a player that can, all by itself, decode any of the new format audio codecs that are of interest to you, and you need to get a receiver with HDMI V1.1 or higher which is also known to be able to receive high bandwidth, multi-channel PCM over that HDMI connection and do the right thing with it.

And also, "Deep Color", touted as a feature of HDMI V1.3 will be of no value to anyone for years.

For example, no HD-DVD or Blue Ray disc contains "Deep Color" content (since they are 8 bits), and they never will. "Deep Color" disc content will requre some future, new, disc standard that isn't even a gleam in anyone's eye yet.

--Bob "

And he is SO right! This should be a FAQ on every forums on the net. The nonsense about HDMI 1.3 need to stop!

[Nolan B]

I don't know why people are obsessing with HDMI 1.3. You DON'T have to wait for HDMI 1.3 for anything!

Here's a quote from my friend Bob Pariseau on another forum:

"HDMI V1.3 is marketing fluff and hype intended to convince people to replace stuff they now own faster than they otherwise would. There is no point in waiting for HDMI V1.3 nor in paying a premium for it over a proper implementation of HDMI V1.1 or V1.2

HDMI V1.3 *WILL* let players pass "bitstream", i.e., undecoded, versions of the new format audio codecs to the receivers for decoding. But what the industry is hoping you won't find out until it is too late is that this is a feature you will not be able to take advantage of!

Unlike standard DVDs, the new format DVDs implement something called the "advanced content" feature set. It is up to each studio to decide whether or not a given disc is authored in "advanced content" mode. And here's the big secret: A disc authored for "advanced content" *MUST* have its audio codecs decoded IN THE PLAYER regardless of whether you have HDMI V1.3 and regardless of what your receiver might be able to do.

The reason is that the "advanced content" stuff includes various types of audio mixing that have to happen inside the player, and which can't happen until after the audio codec is decoded. And this is true EVEN IF you are not actually using any of those features at the moment.

Any commercial disc which is NOT authored for "advanced content" will be at a disadvantage in the marketplace. Think of the loss of menu audio during playback or the loss of picture in picture commentary tracks. And thus it is highly likely that virtually all commercial discs will be "advanced content" discs. This is ALREADY true for HD-DVD discs, and is only not true for Blue Ray discs because the authoring tools used by the studios are lagging a bit behind. Advanced Content will be the norm for Blue Ray discs as early as 2007.

So what you need to do is to buy a player that can, all by itself, decode any of the new format audio codecs that are of interest to you, and you need to get a receiver with HDMI V1.1 or higher which is also known to be able to receive high bandwidth, multi-channel PCM over that HDMI connection and do the right thing with it.

And also, "Deep Color", touted as a feature of HDMI V1.3 will be of no value to anyone for years.

For example, no HD-DVD or Blue Ray disc contains "Deep Color" content (since they are 8 bits), and they never will. "Deep Color" disc content will requre some future, new, disc standard that isn't even a gleam in anyone's eye yet.

--Bob "

And he is SO right! This should be a FAQ on every forums on the net. The nonsense about HDMI 1.3 need to stop!

I didnt know this, but its an interesting read. I suppose once recievers which can decode via thier HDMI input are wively available we will see just how widespread this issue becomes...if at all.

Can someone comfirm something for me? I have read HDMI v1.1 will pass the next gen sound formats, and you dont need 1.3 for it.

[Eric_C]

That still doesn't work for me.

Your still only going to get PCM over HDMI with 1.1, that is NOT lossless audio.

You can do the same thing with SACD and HDMI 1.1, but its not lossless, its PCM.

There is no way that can be true. Otherwise True Dolby is a complete waste because you will never get lossless right upto the DAC.

Your downconverting it from the get go, whats the point?

With an HDMI 1.3 receiver you should be able to decode it in the receiver WITHOUT being down converted first.

Seriously, read what was written and tell me if that makes any sense what so ever.

They going to force everyone into 8 channel analog?

Your going from original to PCM then from PCM to the DAC?

I just don't see it.

[Nolan B]

^^^^ If I am not mistaken PCM is lossless, and therefore can not be more or less lessless then TrueHD.

[Eric_C]

I do not believe it handles the same resolution however so if you have a high resolution audio signal and then need to convert it to a format with less resolution then you are throwing out data.

According to what I can find PCM only allows for 48/16/2 channel pass through.

I can't find anything that says its supports higher resolutions than that and I assume HD Audio is higher than that because DVD-Audio eclipses that resolution currently.

Even the PS3 doesn't support DSD over 1.3, it still converts to PCM...and honestly if PCM was so great, why not record it in PCM to start?

[Nolan B]

PCM can do 24/96 in 8 channels. I unfortunately dont have a lnk to support this but I have read it a few times. Its possible, however, that I am wrong.

[Eric_C]

Ok so what receivers out there will currently let you do that?

Making the argument that we don't need HDMI 1.3, but yet we do need a receiver that will support these high PCM rates is just a matter of semantics, in the end the problem is the same.

I've done some more reading including a whitepaper on Dolby TrueHD which says its a basic extension of DVD-Audio!

And they don't support DVD-Audio in the players....sigh...

Another thought...if multichannel PCM is so good and Dolby True HD or HD Master is encrypted so well that it has to be decoded in the player...then why worry about copy protection at all?

Think about it. You convert TrueHD into PCM, which from your saying is the same quality, then you could suck up the PCM feed in the middle.

So why even encrypt it?

I'm just looking at this logically and it doesn't make sense.

If you are 100 PERCENT FOR SURE that I will get mutlichannel PCM, of the same quality, from any HD DVD Disc playing the best audio track available I'll go get one today.

I have a Yamaha RXV-2600 receiver and cannot find out if it supports mutlichannel PCM over HDMI. I have a spare HDMI port waiting

If this post seems jumbled I made edits over probably an hour and a half while reading different things...

[Chris D]

:roll: ... and here we go again. Certain brands and products are subtly being promoted here. I'll take a pass at this part of the discussion this time around.

[LEVESQUE]

Chris. Don't start again... Sigh... Stop being personnal with me and just READ what I'm posting. If not, just send me a PM and we will discuss the problems you seems to have with me.

Here's directly from HDMI FAQ :

Quote:
Q: Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or BluRay players?

No. HDMI has the flexibility to transport these new high definition, lossless audio formats in either an uncompressed PCM stream, or as an encoded stream. PCM stands for Pulse-code modulation and it is a standard way to encode digital audio in computers, consumer electronics, CDs, DVDs, etc. Both Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD, as well as DTS Master HD bitstreams are transportable over all versions of HDMI as decoded PCM. HDMI supports the highest quality uncompressed PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per sample.

And from my friend Bob again.

"The new codecs are DESIGNED to work without loss of quality across an HDMI V1.1 link when the player does the decoding. There is no reduction in quality implemented by the player or codec if it discovers the link is V1.1 instead of V1.3. The multiple channels of PCM that come across the V1.1 link are the best the new codecs can produce.

Period.

The only thing that V1.3 adds is the ability to send the original, undecoded bitstream format to the receiver for the receiver to decode. Your ability to actually take advantage of this may be limited however. Discs authored in the "advanced content" mode *MUST* be decoded in the player. Most commercial discs are authored this way. The net result is that even with a V1.3 link, and a new receiver with its own decoder for that codec, the decoding still must happen IN THE PLAYER and what comes across the V1.3 link is identical in quality to what would come across a V1.1 link.

Even if decoding does happen in the receiver, what comes out of the codec itself is still the same quality. This is true even if the receiver has a higher internal sampling rate. Such upsampling (which can be applied just as well to a signal coming across the link as PCM) helps insure quality of subsequent processing inside the receiver, but the information coming out of the codec is identical either way.
--Bob "

Whether you decode a TrueHD bitstream in the player or in the receiver, the end result (the decoded data) will be exactly the same.

[LEVESQUE]

Another good post from my friend Bob Pariseau. BTW, I just invited him to come over. I hope he will find some time to come post in here also.

"Presuming both the source device AND the display are BOTH *NOT* HDMI V1.3, then putting an HDMI V1.3 receiver in the middle should not alter the quality or reliability of the video in any way compared to, say an HDMI V1.1 receiver. It won't be any worse, nor will it be any better.

However, that makes the big assumption that the new receiver is implemented properly.

[And of course it also assumes the OLD receiver was implemented properly!]

Both the input and output side of the new HDMI V1.3 receiver are supposed to revert to the prior style of HDMI signal when the handshake reveals that either the source device and/or the display are not HDMI V1.3.

Nevertheless, HDMI V1.3 is tougher to implement than prior versions of HDMI and it is obvious that many serious companies, with serious engineering money to spend on the problem, screwed up the prior versions! Mostly out of carelessness. In home theater product engineering, the school of Shoddy is alive and well.

-----------------------------------------------

That said, and at risk of being accused of spreading conspiracy theories, you have to understand that the fundamental purpose of this whole HDMI V1.3 phenomena is to get people to buy LOTS OF NEW HARDWARE sooner than they otherwise would. All sorts of new hardware. I.e., toss out just about everything you've got and replace ALL OF IT. Right now.

The whole idea is to cash in on the phenomena of HD-DVD and Blue Ray while its hot. [*** EDIT: And while you are at it, suck people into the copy protection scheme that HDMI foists on them. ***]

Thus one might be excused for fearing that, umm, some of these companies might give short shrift to compatibility testing. After all, they can always tell you that any problems you encounter are due to the fact that you've not yet upgraded THE REST OF YOUR STUFF to match the HDMI V1.3 in your new receiver. Hmm?

Are you scared yet? You should be.

Look, when HD-DVD and Blue Ray were pre-announced, any number of people (your humble author included) suggested that the new players, despite their high price, would have problems handling standard DVDs. In fact, such is the case. It has been years since standard DVD players have had problems playing specific commercial discs. Guess what problem has suddenly reappeared?

Why? After all, handling standard DVDs is as close to a commodity technology as you can get these days, isn't it? Sure! But the whole point of HD-DVD and Blue Ray players is to sell HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs.

It's not really that these companies are deliberately screwing up. It's just that the quality of standard DVD playback is *WAY* down the priority list for them -- both in engineering and in testing.

You have to think of HDMI V1.3 the same way.

------------------------------------------------------

Again, the whole point of HDMI V1.3 in any device is to suck you into replacing *OTHER* devices so as to bring ALL OF THEM up to HDMI V1.3. And that's why the industry is touting "advantages" that aren't real. They will be able to get away with this until enough people have moved their entire setups up to HDMI V1.3 for it to become undeniably clear that the emperor is actually naked.

Meanwhile the marketing guys are gearing up to promote ALL imaging advances, regardless of the real reason, as being due to HDMI V1.3. EXAMPLE: REALTA or Gennum VXP video processing migrates down into more affordable devices. Cool! Market any imaging improvements as being due to HDMI V1.3! Ka-ching!

Just keep talking fast and waiving your arms. Besides, by the time most people wise up we'll be touting HDMI V1.4!

The people selling this stuff are not nice people. They just want your money.

I can assure you that, for the most part, the engineers would love to do this stuff right. But it's not their call to make. There's going to be some really "creative" marketing going on this year.

I can't tell you how much I wish this weren't so, but NOW is a time when it is really REALLY important to view new product claims suspiciously and to be extraordinarily careful where you spend your home theater dollars.

Caveat emptor.
--Bob "

[Bob Pariseau]

:roll: ... and here we go again. Certain brands and products are subtly being promoted here. I'll take a pass at this part of the discussion this time around.

Chris,
Without knowing the history behind this comment, I can tell you that the AVS posts LEVESQUE cited from me are hardware and brand neutral.

There's a whole thread over in the receiver section there -- an explanation of the "future proof" receiver -- that discusses these issues and doesn't even list (last I looked) the brand of hardware I happen to use.

The bottom line is that HDMI V1.3 will not do what people are being led to believe it will do, and that's sad. The misrepresentation by industry marketeers is quite deliberate, and that too is sad.
--Bob

[Bob Pariseau]

That still doesn't work for me.

Your still only going to get PCM over HDMI with 1.1, that is NOT lossless audio.

Eric,
I think you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of how movie sound tracks are created for media likd HD-DVD and Blue Ray. The sound tracks are, in fact, "lossless PCM" or LPCM -- or just PCM for short.

Once you've got the LPCM that's as good as it can possibly get. It is bit for bit IDENTICAL to what the studio wanted you to hear.

There's nothing magical about the new codecs like TrueHD or DTS-MA that guarantees better quality. TrueHD, by the way, has been around for years under a different name. It's what makes DVD-Audio work.

Unlike with standard DVDs, these new codecs are merely a way to "zip up" an LPCM sound track into a smaller package. When unzipped, what comes out the other end is IDENTICAL to the LPCM that went in in the first place.

Now HD-DVD discs do not come with the original LPCM track, but Blue Ray discs do because the decoding engineering for Blue Ray players is lagging a bit behind. And for many, if not most, of the current Blue Ray discs, the LPCM track on the disc is, again, IDENTICAL, to what comes out of the "zipped up" version in the codec track.

All these new codecs do is let you package the audio track so that it takes up less space on the disc. As such, it means the studio HAS THE OPTION to make an entirely separate, HIGHER QUALITY audio track and zip it up so that it still fits on the disc.

But the point is, if the studio doesn't bother to do that, the TrueHD track and the bare LPCM track (for example) are IDENTICAL.

Now if you do happen to have a disc where the studio has packaged a BETTER audio track using TrueHD, then the "better" track that they have packaged is STILL LPCM. It is just higher bandwidth LPCM.

When decoded inside the player, what comes out is the original, high bandwidth LPCM that went into the zipping up process in the first place.

And that's what gets sent out over HDMI V1.1 or higher.

HDMI V1.1 is perfectly capable of handling this LPCM transmission -- even for the highest bandwidth tracks contemplated for TrueHD or DTS-MA for example. The only limiting factor is whether the receiver at the other end will do the right thing with the high bandwidth, multi-channel LPCM when it arrives. Not all will, but there are several that do so today, and more coming. Some of the new receivers that do this right will come with HDMI V1.3 but it is *NOT* HDMI V1.3 that enables them to do the job right. It is, rather, better design of their internal digital processing path for high bandwidth, multi-channel digital audio.

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There are only two alternatives to this which will get you the full quality from HD-DVD and Blue Ray audio tracks, and only one of them will actually work for the most important task -- playing commercial movie discs.

The one that works is to get the player to convert the audio all the way to analog and to send it out over multi-channel ANALOG audio outputs. The TrueHD (or whatever) gets decoded by the player into the original LPCM track and then that gets converted to analog. The quality of the result is fundamentally dependent upon the quality of the digital to analog audio output stage of the player. But if the player does that analog conversion well, the result is *PERFECT*. The result of decoding the TrueHD into LPCM in the player is bit for bit identical to the original sound track that went into the TrueHD zipping up process in the first place.

The one that *DOESN'T* work is to get an HDMI V1.3 player and an HDMI V1.3 receiver and set it to send the original, UNdecoded TrueHD (or whatever) bitstream to the receiver for decoding.

That doesn't work because "advanced content" HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs -- i.e., the vast majority of commercial movie discs -- HAVE TO BE decoded INSIDE the player. And this is true regardless of HDMI V1.3 or whatever your receiver might be able to do. You have no option here. If you buy the typical movie disc this summer it will be authored for "advanced content", and no matter how you try to arrange things, the only way to play the TrueHD or DTS-MA "zipped up" version of the studio's audio track is to get THE PLAYER to decode it for you.

But even if it DID work -- as for example with some game discs, or the very very few movies that will take the hit in the marketplace by NOT being authored for "advanced content" -- the result is IDENTICAL! What happens inside such a receiver is that the TrueHD gets "unzipped" into the same, identical LPCM that could have been received over the HDMI link in the first place.
--Bob

[Nolan B]

^^^ that was a good post Bob.

[gianni]

I don't know why people are obsessing with HDMI 1.3. You DON'T have to wait for HDMI 1.3 for anything!

I've felt this way for some time. HDMI is A/V marketing code for 'Smoke and Mirrors'. Granted, there are some good things about HDMI for some installations. Buy and large though, the HDMI hype is wayyyy overblown, especially when it comes to v1.3. Bob's post is informative and well said - I wish anyone looking at new hardware would read this. I feel other important considerations are being overlooked and HDMI is being given way too much weight in the decision process. HDMI 1.3 is not the A/V Holy Grail and cure all as some would lead us to believe.

[Eric_C]

I posted over at AVS and was told my receiver will do multichannel PCM.

I will be picking up a HD DVD player this week.

Now what irritates me is the fact that DVD-Audio is very close to the HD Audio standards and you cannot do DVD-Audio on these players.

I have to stick with my current unit and get a new one....

I honestly only care about what works, nothing else.

[Chris D]

All: I strongly believe that a discussion of the pros and cons of HDMI 1.3 is very beneficial for all of us. I have encouraged Alain and Bob to start a dedicated thread for them to get out whatever information they wish, so we all can learn.

(there's more story here than meets the eye, not appropriate to address here in a public forum. Nothing is directed towards any one person or group here, we're trying to get everyone to play nice) Nothing needs to be personal; nothing needs to be confrontational. Keep it civil!

Back to the original topic! :banana:

[David Meek]

Chris. Don't start again... Sigh... Stop being personnal with me and just READ what I'm posting. If not, just send me a PM and we will discuss the problems you seems to have with me.

Levesque, no more comments like the above or I'll start you with a 30-day ban. ALL personal comments/jabs will cease now. No more.

HTG Administrator