What is "Better" ?

[Bam!]

Hey duders

I am curious......Often the threads on a forum whether this one or another one is about going from a Denon to a Harman Kardon....or whatever....

Thing is what's better.....your attracted to what ...it's coloration on the sound......the sound that YOU think is better.....what ?

Shouldn't posters...and postees be educated to understand more the different "approach" of reproducing sound ?

What do I mean...? Simple.

There are a few ways for reproducing sound in your home...

1-) Tubes...seperate Dac..sperate Transport....highly efficient Full range speakers...

2-) All in one Pre Amp...like Bryston SP1.7...Dac..and all.....heavy power...ineffecient speakers...

3-) The dynamics of vinyl

4-) The world of redbook players...going through an integrated 2 channel rig...with bookshelf...and a sub...

whatever your fancy...wouldn't it be great to step back and understand the different approach that can be done for reproducing sound in your home...?

[Gordon Moore]

Hey Bam...I'm missing the point of the question.

How does the first part

Often the threads on a forum whether this one or another one is about going from a Denon to a Harman Kardon....or whatever....

Thing is what's better.....your attracted to what ...it's coloration on the sound......the sound that YOU think is better.....what ?

Relate to the second part:

whatever your fancy...wouldn't it be great to step back and understand the different approach that can be done for reproducing sound in your home...?

I'll take a stab at what you're asking....
Are you saying that people get too hung up on changing out one component (be it a receiver or whatever) rather than looking at the sum of the parts and the way they affect the overall sound?

Is that what you're getting at? Or did I 747 the whole thing? :lol:

[Bam!]

Hey Bam...I'm missing the point of the question.

How does the first part


Relate to the second part:


I'll take a stab at what you're asking....
Are you saying that people get too hung up on changing out one component (be it a receiver or whatever) rather than looking at the sum of the parts and the way they affect the overall sound?

Is that what you're getting at? Or did I 747 the whole thing? :lol:

Hey Gordo! :rofl:

Well simply put....I think that when music enthousiasts are looking for bigger and better...they need to know the different options out there....since the stores do not provide them....

Meaning... Try and find a store with Fostex Full range speakers....+ vinyl+ 3 watt tube amp.....lets say...

The pros and cons to this type of setup is what I am looking for.....a bigger picture let us say...!

That and / or other systems their +'s and -'s...

How 'bout now....does it make any sense now ???

:W

[Burke Strickland]

they need to know the different options out there....since the stores do not provide them....

If that's the case, then you (or others) are going to the wrong stores or talking to the wrong people at the stores. (I realize that some cities are "HT store challenged", which is why it is good that we have these forums to share that kind of information.)

I have been doing business with a couple of salesmen at different stores who know what kind of equipment I have (they always ask if I've already added anything new before we get too deep into the discussion about possible upgrades) and they make suggestions based on system synergy and actual improvement, not just a quick commission.

One talked me out of a particular receiver a few years ago because it didn't offer a true performance advantage over what I already had, despite having some superficially appealing "new" features. He also steered me to another store when I was looking for a turntable because the models he carried were not at the level of the rest of my system. On the other hand, he's had "the right stuff" on several other occasions, including when I was looking for a subwoofer and he had the best deal in town on a Pronto. I do not hesitate to send others to talk to him about their equipment needs.

The other, who sold me my current speakers, also warned me that I probably wouldn't be completely happy with them until I upgraded other (upstream) components as well. In fact at first he tried to steer me toward a lower level product in the same speaker line that was more suited to the existing components in place. But I wanted the bigger step up that the better speakers offered and we charted a longer range strategy that included "making do" with the lesser amp and pre amp I then had, but stepping up to higher level electronics as my budget allowed it.

He got the sale on the better amp when his store had their annual clearance sale over a year later. I bought the pre/pro somewhere else, since I liked it better than anything he sold. But getting it was still part of the strategy we had devised when I bought the speakers a couple of years earlier.

Which brings home another point: not all the changes have to be made at once. Although the optimal performance level will not be reached until the last links are in place, with careful planning and execution, there is still a lot of enjoyment to be had during the incremental interim steps.

Better to do it step at a time (according to a plan) than to never step forward at all. The knowledgeable folks here, as well as the really good salesmen at the better HT stores, can help with advice as we formulate those plans.

Burke

[Lex]

It is up to the individual to determine if he thinks a piece is not geling with his system. If he had a piece in before this, and knows how it changed, he pretty well knows where the source of his problem is if one developed when he put it in.

I really don't think focusing on any one thing is going to be the magic bullet most of the time. decisions are made about what's sexy, what's not, and more often than not, we actually teach ourselves to love a particular sound, rather than loving a sound as soon as you hear it. Does this make sense?

Many times people buy complete systems,and if their is a problem, they have no idea which component actually is the problem. How would they know? So, then they start the process of trial and error replacement. Thus, it becomes Rotel for X brand, ext...

Truthfully, this is probably a topic for audio hideout only, but we can leave it here a while.

I don't know, maybe this is to deep a topic for a clearcut answer, that is if I understand the topic.

Lex

[Bruce]

Bam,

I think a much more productive endeavor would be to bone up a bit on acoustics knowledge (such as F. Alton Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics" 4th edition in paperback), so that you could treat the speaker/room induced acoustic problems that have 10 times more influence on sound quality than any single piece of upgraded equipment would.

[ThomasW]

The pros and cons to this type of setup is what I am looking for.....a bigger picture let us say...!

No problem, just hop on a plane and book yourself into 'Lost Wages' for the 2005 WCES.

You'll see and hear EVERYTHING there............ :wink:

[Bam!]

Hi Guys!

If that's the case, then you (or others) are going to the wrong stores or talking to the wrong people at the stores. (I realize that some cities are "HT store challenged", which is why it is good that we have these forums to share that kind of information.)

Burke.....Always a pleasure to read your replies....I agree forums are needed for that "extra" advice...
This being said....how do we know that what we are suggesting is what they really want....

...But...what I am trying to have as a thread is :

I am only now....starting to realize "some" of the different approach's that are being used in the world of audio.....

Knowing which one will you get you Nirvana is the most important thing...no ?

There are many different ways to reproduce music in our homes.....like with tubes....full range speakers.....vinyl...digital.....multi channel....ineffecient speakers with big powerful amps....whatever it is...it would be great to be very aware of them.....

Then you know which direction to go in ....no ?

Does this make any sense to you guys....or am I just lost in space!

[Bam!]

Doug wrote

Truthfully, this is probably a topic for audio hideout only, but we can leave it here a while.

I don't know, maybe this is to deep a topic for a clearcut answer, that is if I understand the topic.

I thought the same thing....I am still not sure either!

[David Meek]

There are many different ways to reproduce music in our homes.....like with tubes....full range speakers.....vinyl...digital.....multi channel....ineffecient speakers with big powerful amps....whatever it is...it would be great to be very aware of them.....

Then you know which direction to go in ....no ?

Does this make any sense to you guys....or am I just lost in space!

Okay big boy, I think I finally see what you are asking. You want a guide/roadmap that shows the various approaches to sonic nirvana, right? Well Bammer, that is the holy grail and to quantify the approaches to it will be just about as heroic an effort as the original search for the chalice. :

I mean, each and every piece you put into a system has its own characteristics and those characteristics interact with every other unique piece differently. That interaction can range from negligible to profound, and it is part of tens or hundreds of interactions in every system a person can assemble. Now, throw on top of that the fact that people want different things from their systems and will combine the various pieces available to achieve what they want, not what you want. All those system interactions combined with wanting different goals make this task almost impossible. Note that I did say "almost" - got a few free years to devote to the project?

Yes, there are certain trends that work better than others, but that only narrows the field from the near impossible to the improbable. For example: you should have lots of good, clean power for Maggies. Okay, now - WHAT is the "right" kind of good, clean power and how much is enough? Do you see what I'm saying? Another would be: flea-powered SETs sound good with Lowther horn-type speakers. What brand of Lowther? Which SET? What is "good"? Another thing to consider would be "assumptions": SACD sounds as good as vinyl (hmmm, did I say that? ). But under what conditions? What turntable, arm and cartridge? What pre/pro? What transport? What cables? What room acoustics? Were you drinking heavily at the time? Auggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Maybe I've missed the boat, but I think you're chasing something that's so big it isn't do-able.... Am I close?

[Bam!]

Okay big boy, I think I finally see what you are asking. You want a guide/roadmap that shows the various approaches to sonic nirvana, right? Well Bammer, that is the holy grail and to quantify the approaches to it will be just about as heroic an effort as the original search for the chalice.

You are bang on!!!!!!

This thread could be so interesting IMO it's not even funny!

Maybe I've missed the boat, but I think you're chasing something that's so big it isn't do-able.... Am I close?

...with the knowledge that is in this forum...I think we could have some interesting conversations.....


David! :T :T :T :T :T

[purplepeople]

The equation is still missing a calculation for value. Whether it is a first purchase, an upgrade or a replacement, there is always a budget unless you are truly loaded.

That said, I think a number of "professional" products are getting missed just because they are even less accessible than some of the "high-end" components. Bryston is a good example... would you rather get the pretty consumer units or stick with the all-black pro line. Same innards, but different price depending on who sells it to you.

As to the various "approaches," I find that there is hardly a discussion about the effect of the presentation on other non-HT audience members. I certainly don't buy components just for my enjoyment but for that of anyone who shares my entertainment pleasures. As such, I've tried to stay away from anything with a "coloration" because even if that may be more pleasing in some cases, it won't translate the widest variety of material into a good experience.

ensen.

[Bam!]

The equation is still missing a calculation for value. Whether it is a first purchase, an upgrade or a replacement, there is always a budget unless you are truly loaded.

That said, I think a number of "professional" products are getting missed just because they are even less accessible than some of the "high-end" components. Bryston is a good example... would you rather get the pretty consumer units or stick with the all-black pro line. Same innards, but different price depending on who sells it to you.

As to the various "approaches," I find that there is hardly a discussion about the effect of the presentation on other non-HT audience members. I certainly don't buy components just for my enjoyment but for that of anyone who shares my entertainment pleasures. As such, I've tried to stay away from anything with a "coloration" because even if that may be more pleasing in some cases, it won't translate the widest variety of material into a good experience.

ensen.

Purple people.....thanks for your input......but this is not what we are talking about....or trying atleast! :lol:


What I am trying to get going seems so far out of reach that some of us don't even get it! :lol:

Approach A) 2*600 watts into B&W's 802's with a DvD player like a Denon 5900 into a Bruston Sp 1.7 that carries all....

Approach B) 2 Fostex speakers being single full range speakers with extreme high effeciency like 104db's driven by 3 watt tube amp and vinyl for a source

Approach C)Cinema Receivers for music and movies...driven by bookshelves and a sub.....

etc etc....

This is what I want to know...why your approach is with the equipement you have....and then its +'s and -'s......

[dixon]

Bam I sent you a PM.
Dixon

[Andrew Pratt]

I'd say it should start with the speakers and then move out from there. Audition as many speakers as you can perferably at home until you find something you really enjoy then figure out what your needs are from there. Really in many ways the room and your speakers set the base for your sound...the amps, pre amps and sources etc are more or less tweaks to tailor the sound you eventually hear. This of course means that if you don't like the sound you hear the best way to change it is to change speakers as anything else will be a subtle tweak (within reason of course)

[Bruce]

Have to say Andrew, you hit the nail directly on the head!!!!

I spent a whole year auditioning speakers before selecting Dynaudio Contours as my preferred speaker. I listened critically to more than 40 brands and came away with a distinct preference for 2-way systems with silk dome tweeters (especially Dynaudio's). By the way I bought 2-way towers for mains (f3=32Hz).

After that it was simply purchase good quality high-current amps (Parasound) --because the speakers draw lots of current-- and reasonably priced preamps and source components to go with it.

[purplepeople]

This is what I want to know...why your approach is with the equipement you have....and then its +'s and -'s......

Sorry for the delayed response. Obviously, I have too many things going on.

I thought I understood your original poser...to elaborate on our approach to choosing our own equipment. I guess you didn't like my value proposition, so I will give you my current no-holds-barred wish list. Sadly, I would need a half-million dollar (Vancouver) home to house all this. Anything smaller probably wouldn't protect the neighbours. But, this is no-holds.

Source:
Sony DVP-CX777ES - so I never have to change a disc.

Connects.
Probably do this myself with some kind of multi-CAT into gold connectors. Totally analog for the sound. Digital if the player and project can play well together.

Pre-amp:
Mackie 24-8 studio console - full control over the surround signals including digital delays for each channel.

Speakers:
PMC AML-1 active monitors x 9 - one for each mixer bus and dual centers
No decision on the sub until the room is finished. Might not need one.

Display:
Canon SX-50 projector - because I can trust their lenses.

Screen:
Don't know yet. Maybe a Carada - it's hard to get away from good value.

Room:
Purpose built. Lost of acoustic material. Three large custom loveseats in two rows with a riser for the back pair.

To be honest, I really haven't gone looking because I can't afford it. What's the point in finding something, only to pine away for it. So, the value question pops up again. Do I find merit in the "other" approaches? Actually, no. I've heard enough tube gear to know that it sometimes sounds too pretty, as do many full-range speaker solutions. Vinyl might be sweet analog but it often doesn't have the range to bother with high-end amps, plus one annoying skip and you can lose all the enjoyment gained. What I really want to be able to "hear" is the silence.

What I currently have is the the baby baby brother to what I've just listed. Sony DVP-NC650V analog 6-ch into Teac 2A 4-bus mixer feeding Yorkville YSM1p actives in front and Marantz 1530 receiver and Tannoy Proto-J monitors in back. Yamaha NS-W2 sub for when I want to really feel the dinosaurs, but generally not needed (40Hz mains). The next purchase will probably be a simple proj... maybe one of those DLPs. And I was thinking of building a pair of line-array centers just for dialogue... I have an couple of older Sansui receivers not doing anything. But before I do that, I'll need to make a 6-channel volume control.

What's my rationale? Accuracy. No colouration.

You see, I can hear that even some of the $1500 receivers don't have the oomph that my Yorkvilles have. Take Arcam and PSB... over-rated. Good, but still too much for the asking. Especially PSB - way to bright, as if they forgot that pianos go down below 55Hz. NAD is good, but I can still do better with less expensive studio equipment. People talk about how B&W sounds so good and the next step up is a Dynaudio. Well, I'll bet they've never demo'ed any of the Mackie active monitors or sat in a small room with Blue Sky monitors. The response smoother, higher and deeper than anything in the same price range from Infinity.

What I'm saying is that for any given $1000 I spend, I want to know that I've done better than all the usual names at that price. I don't think many of the high end brands are that high end. I find better bang for buck with professional equipment. Like Bryston... good amps. They're what's driving the PMCs.

So I have to ask again, why can't value be part of the equation. It's part of my approach.

ensen.

[purplepeople]

Hi Bruce,

I'm not slagging your choice of Dynaudio. They are good, and I can understand why you chose them. But, I personally don't think they are worth the asking price, especially against the active Mackies.

ensen.

[Bam!]

Hey guys...

So...since this thread is not going in the direction I wanted it to....

I'll add to the comments that we have built up...

So...what if I made a comment like I think passif X overs suck the life out of music...

What would you say ?

What if I told you that most passif crossver based speakers have phase problems...meaning you lose your imaging during the song....on certain frequencies..and other stuff...

[David Meek]

Put on your flame-retardant underwear first. :B

[Bruce]

Purple,

No problem. Eveyone has different tastes. I actually listened to a few powered pro speakers in a local music shop including Mackies (model #?) but didn't like them, too sterile for me. I find the Dyns produce the most realistic vocals (especially female) of any speaker I auditioned.

For my tastes, 2-ways with 1st order crossovers and silk-dome tweeters just sound better. I bought 3 of my 5 Dynaudio Contours new except for my main towers which I bought used. This way I got main speakers for about 50% less than MSRP, plus these Dynaudio Contour 2.8 towers actually use the tweeter from the Confidence series, the next model up.

Now remember, this was 6 years ago, but I haven't heard anything since that would make me want to switch to new speakers.

Bam,
Can't say I agree with your sweeping generalization on passive crossovers. Generally 1st order crossovers do a really good job of preserving phase.

My Dynaudios have 1st order crossovers and their imaging is incredible at all frequencies!

[purplepeople]

Put on your flame-retardant underwear first. :B

Sorry, just getting a little testy. I try to stay away from highly subjective phrases like "makes music soul-less" so when I see it I sometimes react the same way I do with the Future Shop salespeople. So, to try to get back into the spirit of Bam's last post... here's what I think in a bit of a list. I hope this is an acceptable approach.

No tubes - 2nd order effects cover too much of the performance flaws.
SS - discrete vs monolithic is merely a question of power.
Passive XO - not any more phase problems than active (a filter is a filter).
Full range - I've heard good and I've heard bad. I think they make excellent mids in a 3-way.
Bass - No preference when executed well.

Provided the noise and distortion are kept to acceptable minimums, I think much of the variation in sound comes from the matching of one component's output to the input of another. Not so much from the interconnects, but the combined impedance, capacitance and inductance generated when the two circuits get wired up create a whole new filter that wasn't there before.

Hence active monitors - you get a buffer, XO, amp and drivers that are designed to match for less than the cost of matching separates.

I think it would be more interesting to test an entire chain from one brand to another. All Rotel vs. all Krell vs. all Levinson vs. Parasound etc. Then you see how well the individual companies have designed their circuits to match.

Projectors - higher contrast ratio translates into smoother grey scale. Higher resolution may not be better than well designed anti-alias circuits. Camera companies will generally make better optics.

TVs - CRTs are still better than flat panels for colour reproduction. I know... I have both a CRT and LCD at work.

ensen.

[Bam!]

Bam,
Can't say I agree with your sweeping generalization on passive crossovers. Generally 1st order crossovers do a really good job of preserving phase.

It's actually not my opinion...but more a comment...it's more to hear what fellow members have to say about such a phrase...Thanks for the input.

[Bam!]

Sorry, just getting a little testy. I try to stay away from highly subjective phrases like "makes music soul-less" so when I see it I sometimes react the same way I do with the Future Shop salespeople. So, to try to get back into the spirit of Bam's last post... here's what I think in a bit of a list. I hope this is an acceptable approach.

No tubes - 2nd order effects cover too much of the performance flaws.
SS - discrete vs monolithic is merely a question of power.
Passive XO - not any more phase problems than active (a filter is a filter).
Full range - I've heard good and I've heard bad. I think they make excellent mids in a 3-way.
Bass - No preference when executed well.

Provided the noise and distortion are kept to acceptable minimums, I think much of the variation in sound comes from the matching of one component's output to the input of another. Not so much from the interconnects, but the combined impedance, capacitance and inductance generated when the two circuits get wired up create a whole new filter that wasn't there before.

Hence active monitors - you get a buffer, XO, amp and drivers that are designed to match for less than the cost of matching separates.

I think it would be more interesting to test an entire chain from one brand to another. All Rotel vs. all Krell vs. all Levinson vs. Parasound etc. Then you see how well the individual companies have designed their circuits to match.

Projectors - higher contrast ratio translates into smoother grey scale. Higher resolution may not be better than well designed anti-alias circuits. Camera companies will generally make better optics.

TVs - CRTs are still better than flat panels for colour reproduction. I know... I have both a CRT and LCD at work.

ensen.

You are warm...this is heading towards the direction I want! :T

Now....gimme a little more on this tube theory you have ...

Full range...you've heard good you say....what was powering them ?

Thanks!

[Bam!]

What's my rationale? Accuracy. No colouration.

Well everything colors the sound....everything!

It does not exist to have speakers with absolute neutrality.....there is always coloration.....

Maybe that is what I find sounds polite to systems in general...I dunno..I am still trying to figure it out...

[purplepeople]

I won't play too much into the "take my words literally" bait. Perfection is by it's nature, impossible, but we can get more and more minimal as we go, can't we? Then, just so we're clear, "no colouration" really means "as little as possible." (it sure would be nice if we could use a little well-placed hyperbole, even over the net)

Anyway, a system that seems "polite" probably needs more amp. The only reason to back off would be excursive. But as they say in the tire business, power is useless without control. So we keep our distortion to a minimum. Mr. Firestone would have called that technology "tubeless."

The 2nd order stuff is about even harmonics getting more play in a vacuum (tube). Maybe I didn't say it quite right. A playback system that (de-)emphasizes some frequencies will always give an inaccurate sound. Sure, that noise is very pretty, but it's only skin-deep. If you've ever heard a concert grand from 3 feet or a trumpet behind your head, then just about all the cosmetics caked on top of a recording doesn't do the real thing any justice at all. So when an (pre)amp messes with the sound more than necessary, I take some offense.

Having once played music can give one a really interesting ear for sound. Musicians come in two types, those that don't notice MP3s and those that hate them. I'm the hateful type (heh!). Sometimes I wish I didn't have as good an ear (tone and FR) or knowledge of film-making. Then I could sit in the little second run theatres and have a little HTIB at home. Ignorance truly would be bliss. I know my friends think I'm crazy.

No problem. Eveyone has different tastes. I actually listened to a few powered pro speakers in a local music shop including Mackies (model #?) but didn't like them, too sterile for me.

Mackies are 624, 626 and 824 and have 1x6", 2x6" and 1x8" mid/bass driver. Interesting choice of word. I prefer "analytical" as that's what I'm after when choosing speakers. Doesn't matter anyway, because I can't afford them.

ensen

[Bruce]

Mackies are 624, 626 and 824 and have 1x6", 2x6" and 1x8" mid/bass driver. Interesting choice of word. I prefer "analytical" as that's what I'm after when choosing speakers. Doesn't matter anyway, because I can't afford them.

I also prefer an analytical presentation (which I do get today) but my original reaction to what I heard in the pro shop was sterile. That was just my opinion 6 years ago, I haven't gone back to listen to today's pro monitor offerings. Sultry female vocals are a dead giveaway for evaluating this IMO.

I could probably afford them, but would probably opt for the Dynaudio AIR system instead (pro powered monitors) because of their infinite computer controled adjustability.

I'm not on the path of continuous equipment upgrades, searching for that holy grail. In fact I have the same components I started with 6 years ago, except for an upgraded CD player. Instead, I spent my time and small amount of money on acoustic measurement software and the knowledge necessary to get the most out of the equipment I have. I'm still very satisfied 6 years later, even after listening to new equipment offerings.

I find the best sound for a specific room results from good acoustical fundamentals (knowledge) and some help from acoustic measurement programs like ETF5 (an MLS based system) with a calibrated mic.