Narrowing it down

**Andrew Pratt** · 14 September 2004, 14:23 Tuesday

WOW that's some list of gear! There's a few things I'd look at though over what you're looking at now. For example the M&K subs while not bad woofers aren't the choice I would make for similar money. For example AdireAudio has their Sadhara's on sale for under $600 each which is a very good price and a pair would easily give you all the LFE you could ever want. Here's a link to their sale.

**Shane Martin** · 14 September 2004, 14:38 Tuesday

I too would not go with the V125 subwoofers. Plus they just released all new M&K's just now with more power and such. If you are heart set on M&K, I'd wait.

I myself havinig owned an M&K know what you will be missing. If you want the low end in your home theater, I'd strongly consider something from Adire or SVS. If you are not in the US, then SVS might not be a viable option. Still having gone to a midrange MX90/125 and having friends who own M&K, I've got some experience with them.

Also something to consider in that same price range Processor wise, I'd look at the new Lexicon MC4 that was just released.

**NMyTree** · 14 September 2004, 15:35 Tuesday

Thanks for the input and suggestions guys.

I am in the USA.........North Carolina.

You know, picking a subwoofer has been a difficult and confusing process for me. I'm still relatively new to all of this and basically trying to learn as much as possible, as I go along.

I've always been a 2-channel stereo guy, since I was nine years old; when my dad bought me my first little stereo Turntable and speakers. I always loved music.

But over the last year and half, I've been getting into all of this higher-end stuff, or least higher-end than the off-the-shelf Curcuit City...Best Buy stuff.

It's certainly higher-end for me ..lol :B

Anyway, I've gone round and round on subwoofers. My main thing is, I want a sub that does music very well. Musicality is one of the most important elements for me. I listen to a lot of cello music and some of Jean Michel Jarre's old stuff, and I want a sub that will provide a nice, tight, musical foundation for the music I listen to. I don't want over-bearing bass nor do I like over-bearing bass) that dominates the frequency range and booms all over the place.

But then I read people saying that most music (and cellos) don't even go down low enough to reach the sub. So I guess it's all a matter of where you crossover the frequency to the sub.

For movies, I don't really listen to movies at really loud volume levels. I have a volume comfort zone, which I pretty much stick to. I want to hear all the little nuances, sound effects and dialogue clearly. But I personally don't enjoy subsonic bass that rips through your chest and slams you up against the wall, shatters windows, peels paint, kills insects and small mammals; and renders one sterile :E:E:E :B

That's just my personal preference and taste.

So I don't really require loads of power from my Subs. Just as long as there is enough power and headroom to convey the effects of the movie, and handle those brief moments of increased dynamics or what ever you call it; then I'm a happy guy.

I've researched the SVS subs, ACI Titan and Force, HSU TN-1220HO, and a few others; and I thought the M & K 1250 suited my needs and tastes the best. But I could be wrong. I'll do some more research on the subs.

Shane, would you mind sharing your experience with M & K subs? Describing to me what you didn't like about them, or what you felt you were missing? Either here or in a Private Message would be fine.

I'm going to check into the Lexicon MC4 ....shortly.

Thanks for the help guys!

**aud19** · 14 September 2004, 16:25 Tuesday

You may also want to explore a less expensive CD transport or even a PC (think music server) with an upsampling DAC etc...

Other than that, I agree, nice list :yesnod: :P

Jason

**Andrew Pratt** · 14 September 2004, 16:37 Tuesday

Anyway, I've gone round and round on subwoofers. My main thing is, I want a sub that does music very well. Musicality is one of the most important elements for me. I listen to a lot of cello music and some of Jean Michel Jarre's old stuff, and I want a sub that will provide a nice, tight, musical foundation for the music I listen to. I don't want over-bearing bass nor do I like over-bearing bass) that dominates the frequency range and booms all over the place.

The hard about about subwoofers is that the room they are in and where they are placed will play a huge role in the sound you hear from them. This added to calibration issues means that auditioning them at dealers is next to impossible. As for volumes and playback levels that's obviously something to consider but so is headroom. Most of the time your sub(s) are going to be loafing along and most will sound pretty similar to each other (in the same room at the same level) but when all hell breaks loose you need a driver with a long stroke and an amp that isn't going to give up on you or you'll hear it bottoming out or gasping for air. Its these times that you will really appreciate the headroom you have in your subs...or more accurately its these times that you won't notice the subs as it will be nicely integrated with the rest of the system...there's nothing worse then listening to a subwoofer producing highly distorted sound during a critical scene in either the movie or the music.

**Shane Martin** · 14 September 2004, 17:23 Tuesday

Shane, would you mind sharing your experience with M & K subs? Describing to me what you didn't like about them, or what you felt you were missing? Either here or in a Private Message would be fine

They were lacking in the lowest octave of Umph. For music they were fine but I always felt they were underpowered. Having heard a bigger Velodyne, and a better SVS setup, I don't feel I lost any musicality if I went that route, but I gained that lowest octave bass. I don't HAVE to turn it up to the level where its uncomfortable but its there and the nice thing about the other choices we listed is they cost LESS.

The ACI stuff I heard is great but lacks the bottom octave as well. If you are totally against the idea of a big Tube like the TN or the SVS PC+ series, then they both have box versions. I don't feel that I lose any musicality with those. The Rel's which are really popular for music subs have a crossover setup that is impoosible to beat however it comes at a cost of low end bass. For me its that part of the movies where I lack that octave. I know the information is there, I just know that my sub can't produce it. The best part about buying MORE than you can handle is the ability to turn it down. It's easier to turn it down than to turn it up.

Also speaker wise I think you are going way above the call of those Wharfedales. They are nice but are they a bit "not enough" when you are considering the likes of Parasound Halo and Ayre? Then again Wharfedales might have drastically improved
since the last time I heard them.

**NMyTree** · 14 September 2004, 23:09 Tuesday

Once again, thanks for your input. You both make some good points.

Andrew, is "Long Throw" the same as "Long Stroke" ? Which Subs have "Long Stroke" ?

Shane, I listed the V1250 THX sub, not the V125. They are two different animals.

I took a look at the REL Subs, and I'm going to contact their distributer tomorrow to ask some questions.

On M & K 's website, they list the V1250 as going down to 20hz. I don't know, that seems low enough. No? Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm going to look around some more and check SVS again...too. Since I was planning on getting two subs, maybe I'll get on V1250 and one SVS 20-39PC-Plus. Guess I have more research to do...LOL.

" They are nice but are they a bit "not enough" when you are considering the likes of Parasound Halo and Ayre? "

Shane, I have spoken with the folks at Wharfedale, a number of dealers and a few people who own the Wharfedale Opus 2 Speakers, in the last 8 months or so. By all accounts, the Opus series is allegedly to be Wharfedales highest quality, highest-end speaker line, they've ever made.

I spoke to a dealer (not a Wharfedale dealer) on the west coast, who told me he heard the Opus 2 with Krell components/sources; and he said he was astonished at the wonderful sound. He said they sounded beautiful.

FWIW, someone at Wharfedale also told me the Opus series was designed with higher end electronics in mind. Krell was one of the lines he mentioned, along with a few others.

All I can tell you from personal experience, I auditioned the Opus 2 and absolutely loved their sound! I was in love with them right there. As was my friend who went with me to the audition. She sat there for two hours, with her eyes closed and just absorbed herself in the music. Said she felt like she was floating. Same with me, except I had to get up every 3-4 tracks to switch CDs. I doubt she will be buying them. Although, she's already stated that she's going to come over often to listen to them, when I get it all set up. Something about bringing a sleeping bag...LOL :B

Will they sound just as good in my Living Room? Well, your guess is as good as mine. But I have them on order and it takes 90 days for them to arrive (in the Black Glossy finish). I'm sure I can do some room treatments to get them very close to being as good as they can be.

Who knows, maybe you're right.

But they sure sounded wonderful to me. I can't imagine the components I'm currently using and the new ones I'll be adding to the system, will have a negative effect.

I mean, it's not like I'm putting garbage into them.

We'll see.

**Shane Martin** · 15 September 2004, 07:47 Wednesday

Sounds like you made the right choice then. If it sounds good, it doesn't matter.

On M & K 's website, they list the V1250 as going down to 20hz. I don't know, that seems low enough. No? Maybe I'm wrong.

It won't hit 20 audibally. Mine which was cut from the MX series(higher grade) would not.

A Rel Sub for music and a 20-39 sVS would be an interesting combo for HT. The Rel has unbelievably good connections for music and obviously their strong poing. The SVS isn't as flexible but it will provide the deep octave. You do have 45 days to return it if you don't like it. IMHO I doubt that will occur but who knows?

**Andrew Pratt** · 15 September 2004, 12:52 Wednesday

Andrew, is "Long Throw" the same as "Long Stroke" ? Which Subs have "Long Stroke" ?

Yes...the SVS ultra's and any Adire sub using the XBL technology would fit that bill. Like motorsports there's no replacement for displacement. Volume is made up of the driver cone moving massive amounts of air...so you either need a large diameter cone or a smaller one moving in and out a lot...or ideally both

Shanes right in the the M&K could reach down to 20 hz...but at what volume? My IB sub goes down to single digits but its no where near flat past 15 hz or so. With it being a THX sub it will be designed with the THX specs in mind which really means it won't reach that deep but will be tuned higher to boost volumes in the mid bass freq's. I wouldn't mix and match subs if you're looking to buy a pair as you'll have more flexibility with two identical subs.

I'd also agree that the Wharfedale's wouldn't have been on my short list given what I've seen in earlier demo's but I haven't seen the Opus line and really if you like them that's all that matters...you might not like the speakers I built either which is fine too

I wouldn't however give much stock in a sales rep saying they were designed for upper crust gear...I mean who wouldn't say that about a product they're pushing

**NMyTree** · 15 September 2004, 13:42 Wednesday

What's an "IB" Sub? Something you built, or is that a manufactor?

I started looking at the SVS subs again. Still don't know what I'll do, but I have the SVS PC-Ultra and the SVS 20-39 PC Plus on my list.

The Adire Sadhara is $595.00 (till the end of October), but it's passive. I would still need an Amp to drive it. So, I'm not sure I want to go that way. Also, it seems the only sub they have with "XBL" is the Sadhara. I see no mention of it on the other subs.

As for the Wharfedales, yeah...I agree. That's why I put FWIW. Can't really take what some guy who works for IAG has to say ..... too seriously.

Although, the dealer on the west coast I spoke to, does not carry or sell Wharfedale or Quad. So, I can't imagine why he would say something positive about the Opus, if he really didn't care for them.

But they sounded wonderful to my ears and I loved them, and that's all that matters to me. :B

**Andrew Pratt** · 15 September 2004, 13:53 Wednesday

You are right about the Sadhara being passive and yes its the only driver using XBL untill they move that driver technology into some of their other subs...its really a very cool design from a technical standpoint for keeping the distortion down while having a very long stroke.

IB = Infinite Baffle and its essentially a way to build a subwoofer that mimics a very large sealed sub only there isn't a box in the traditional sense. There's a photo of mine on my web page under DIY projects or if you really want to learn more about them read up on them here

Narrowing it down

Narrowing it down

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