Dsmith....Bryston SP1 comments?

[Ricky]

Don,

Please tell us what you found missing with the Bryston SP1 prepro? Was the DPL1 better than DPL2/Logic5 from your HK receiver? Better than 6axis on the Citation 7.0?

Are you seriously considering a Lexicon? Are you using 7.1 or 5.1?

[dsmith]

Ricky, the Bryston was a mint demo purchased from a dealer at a great price, with plans to upgrade to SP-1.7. I hoped it (the 1.7 version) would be my reference pre/pro for movies and music for a long time. It sounds as clean as I expected, and I reported in another post the DPL1 was as good in front as DPL2. Except for the lack of DPLII and Logic 7, the Bryston was superior to the H/K AVR520 in every respect, as it should be.

I don't think the SP-1 has any problems at all, except for me personally. Alas, I found the SP-1 posesses the same sonic attributes as the 4BST amplifier, which means it causes listener fatigue in my tender ears. I was extremely disappointed. I even took it out of my system for a while and tried it a second time to see if I had been mistaken the first time, but got the same results. I can only guess that Bryston uses the same circuit philosphy in the SP-1 as in their amplifiers.

When I went back to the Citation 7.0 it was much more comfortable. And I don't know why, but the Citation just simply sounds fabulous on music - warm, dynamic, detailed, with a huge and 3 dimensional soundstage. For now I just use it as a 2 channel preamp using its stereo bypass. Some of the credit for the great sound of my music goes to the H/K FL8550 CD player that I use - its DACs are maybe the best ever made for CDs. It uses dual 20 bit Burr-Brown 1702 DACs, the same (but not K grade) DAC used in the $20,000 Linn CD player, and apparently it is the "superior" DAC used in the Theta Digital Casablanca! I hate that they stopped making this player - so I bought a second just for backup.

The H/K AVR520 is used just for movies and some digital music in the Logic 7 mode (not as good as the Citation 6-axis or jazz modes, but I can't use the Citation surround modes for now). I route the L/R output from the H/K through the Citation which I have set to power on at a preset and matched output. The CD players are hooked directly to the Citation. It works out okay but it is a little cumbersome, and I miss using the Citation for surround music. I tried the Sony EAP9000ES (?) multichannel analog preamp but it made popping noises everytime I turned it on or switched inputs. I can't stand that kind of noise - the Citation and AVR520 are perfectly silent. It even got rid of that old TV hum that used to be in my system, though I think much of the credit for the reduction in system noise goes to the Innersound ESL amps. Next to my Digital Phase speakers, they were the best thing ever put into my system. I can't recommend this amp too highly. The ESL really is my "perfect" amp.

I know I can get the Citation modified at MSB Tech. and I am thinking that over some more. Cost wise it makes sense. But I am intrigued by the new Lexicon MC-8, which is more affordable than the MC-12 (but still pushing my budget) and has most of its attributes. I know the Lexicon will be great on movies, and its analog bypass looks pretty clean. It could be a great one-box solution, but I won't know until I try it.

I don't know if I answered your questions or not, but if not let me know.

dsmith

[Ricky]

There's a citation 7.0 on ebay with the msb 5.1 inputs and the cable too. Has some minor video output issues that you or someone with a technical background can probably fix.

Gotta run, more comments later.

[Ricky]

Listener fatigue seems to be a thorn in your side. So the citation's 6axis is better than the bryston DPL1...right? Have you considered the Sony ep9es dolby digital decoder with 5.1 inputs and 5.1 outputs for about $200 used? It has good ac3 and the volume is defeated in bypass mode (ie, designed to sit between a preamp and power amps). I used this with my citation 7.0 when I had it. Honestly, a few friends and I don't really think DTS is a big deal over AC3.

With the Citation/Sony combo, you would hook up your DVD player to the Sony and perhaps everything else to the Citation. An incredible 5.1/2channel combo under 700! If you have a remote that can program a couple of macros as well as volume control by source (ie, sony's volume when you use the dvd player, but citation's volume for other sources), the integration is even easier. My marantz rc2000II could do this; I'm sure the newer ones can too.

[dsmith]

Ricky,

Thanks for the suggestions, but I suspect I would have the same problem with the Sony E9ES that I did with the other unit (transient noise). I would like to try a modified Citation 7.0 but don't want one with problems and I am not the expert to fix it. Also, Madrigal told me they do not even attempt to repair a modified 7.0.

6 Axis in the Citation and DPLI in the Bryston are quite different - 6 Axis sounds less discrete, similar to the original DPL but more coherent and with more effects in the rear, while Bryston's DPL1 almost sounds like DD in the front LCR speakers with amazing separation.

At this point I think my options are (cheap) have the 7.0 modifed or (costly) go with a Lexicon MC-8, or maybe a Classe SSP-30 MkII. I am also intrigued by the Sim Audio Stargate, but no idea how to get hold of one, and I have seen no reviews. I can get the Krell Showcase locally for about $3,500, but not sure it will be good enough for me on music. If anyone out there has a Krell Showcase I would appreciate their comments.

dsmith

[Ricky]

Don,

You are not the only one with the humm/buzz problem with the sony ta-p9000es...alot of people had this issue, probably something to do with the tap's passive circuitry. I don't recall reading about anyone with this problem on the ep9es. I think you are making the wrong assumption here. btw, an ep9es with the msb dts upgrade just popped up on audiogon.

[dsmith]

Ricky,

My unit, which was brand new, did not have the hum problem - I think that is why I had to wait so long for the original seller to take delivery from his dealer before he could pass it on to me. I think it was held up for testing and/or the fix. Actually, I was very impressed with how quiet it was during listening, BUT it made a loud pop through my speakers every time I turned it on or switched inputs. My speakers are too precious to risk damaging them that way, so adios to the P9000ES. I had the same problem with the Outlaw, and when they replaced it I sold the new one.

BTW, Ricky, did you not say once that you knew someone who repaired Fosgate/Citation units? I seem to recall at DTF that you or someone there gave me his web link. If so and you still have it can you give it again - it could come in handy to me.

dsmith

[Ricky]

Bob Popham's website:

http://www.rjpc.com

[Kevin_McC]

My Sony TA-P9000ES makes the pop sound also. I notice it when turning it on or when I turn the input selector switch. However I don't seem to notice it if I use the remote. Other than that I don't have any hum or other issues with it.

[dsmith]

Ricky,

Thanks mucho.

dsmith

[brucek]

Alas, I found the SP-1 posesses the same sonic attributes as the 4BST amplifier, which means it causes listener fatigue in my tender ears.

Yikes Dreamer, I think we're going to have to have your Bryston membership card revoked for that statement....
I would make exactly the opposite assertion about my SP1 / 4BST combo, but then I suspect like every other evaluation of equipment, it depends on the room, the speakers, the individual, etc, etc, etc. I'm using ProAc Response 3.8's as my mains with this combo and it's the smoothest, least fatiquing sound I've heard to date. Oh well, we all like different things. :roll:

My biggest problem with my SP1 is trying to decide if I really want to get it upgraded to an SP1.7 or not. I like my SP1 so darned much, I'm worried it won't be as good when I get it modified (probably a foolish concern).
Originally, I thought they were only going to add DPLII and maybe change the DAC's when they upgraded the SP1, and so I was gung-ho to upgrade, but then they went to town and added a ton of stuff that I don't really care about. There's basically not much left of your original SP1 after the factory upgrade. I just don't want or need 7.1 channels (duh) or any of their extra surround modes.
5.1 bypass might be nice in case I pick up an SACD (although I'm rethinking that too).
Maybe this summer when I'm not listening as much, I'll pop for the $1500 bucks and suffer the loss of my processor for a week and get it done.

I reported in another post the DPL1 was as good in front as DPL2

Yeah, I've always been really impressed with the DPL1 in the SP1. Great separation up front - very little collapsing. I've heard DPLII in a few stores and wasn't as impressed (crummy comparison though - not really fair, I'd like to hear what Bryston does with it).

H/K FL8550 CD player that I use - its DACs are maybe the best ever made for CDs. It uses dual 20 bit Burr-Brown 1702 DACs, the same (but not K grade) DAC used in the $20,000 Linn CD player, and apparently it is the "superior" DAC used in the Theta Digital Casablanca! I hate that they stopped making this player - so I bought a second just for backup.

Bought a second for backup - Love it, funny stuff. I feel the same way about my Arcam Alpha 9, couldn't live without it - I don't think I'll buy a second for backup though.....

I haven't had much time to read or post anything lately, but it seems like a lot of old DTF'ers are around here now - good stuff. Next thing you know, vadim will be back arguing with us all....

brucek

[dsmith]

Bruce, good to hear from you. The backup FL8550 was a no-brainer when I got it on ubid for about $90, refurbished with the full warranty. Alas, it needed the disc-read fix like all the others, but it was worth it, and covered by the warranty. It is a shame that H/K let that one problem kill what is arguably their best product. I used a FL8380, their current top model as a fill-in while I had the first one worked one (before I got the second). It uses 18 bit Burr-Brown DACs, and I could hear the difference, so I sold it and bought the second FL8550.

Re the Brystons, I cannot tell you how disappointed I was with both the amp and the processor. I know the problem is my ears and not the units themselves. I seem to be especially sensitive to certain (high, maybe even hypersonic) frequencies that others may not notice. The first time I flew on a turboprop airplane I got sick from the high freqnency vibration in the plane. The jet I flew in hours earlier was no problem. Then I test drove a Volkswagen Scirroco and experience the same thing fromm high frequency engine vibration!

The Citation 7.1 amps were even worse than Bryston for me, they actually made my ears hurt. But apart from listener fatigue, I also felt that the "Bryston sound" was rather dry and uninvolving, as if the some of the harmonic richness of the music was stripped away. When I switched the SP-1 back to the Citation 7.0 as a 2 channel preamp, the music just came to life again for me. Just goes to show you, measurements mean little in the final analysis.

dsmith

[brucek]

The backup FL8550 was a no-brainer when I got it on ubid for about $90, refurbished with the full warranty. Alas, it needed the disc-read fix like all the others, but it was worth it, and covered by the warranty. It is a shame that H/K let that one problem kill what is arguably their best product

Yeah, I never hear anything but very positive things about this player. $90 bucks is a steal.....

Re the Brystons, I cannot tell you how disappointed I was with both the amp and the processor. I know the problem is my ears and not the units themselves. I seem to be especially sensitive to certain (high, maybe even hypersonic) frequencies that others may not notice. The first time I flew on a turboprop airplane I got sick from the high freqnency vibration in the plane. The jet I flew in hours earlier was no problem. Then I test drove a Volkswagen Scirroco and experience the same thing fromm high frequency engine vibration!
The Citation 7.1 amps were even worse than Bryston for me, they actually made my ears hurt.

I guess I wanted to throw in an alternative opininion on this, since you seem to have hyper sensitive hearing. I think we should have Lex send you a collection of CATs (free of charge of course ) and you can demo them and do an evaluation of their sonic capabilities..... :LOL:

(Lex says, "Just a minute here, I never agreed to that") :roll:

Glad to see you here at HTG........brucek

[dsmith]

Brucek, if you read the reviews of the FL8550 at audioreview you find that virtually all of the complaints were about the disc-reading problem, not its sound quality. To the contrary, most said it was among the best CD players they had heard at anywhere near its price. If you find one cheap it is worth having it fixed, IMO.

Not sure what CATS are (I assume you do not mean felines). Please enlighten me.

dsmith

[brucek]

Not sure what CATS are (I assume you do not mean felines). Please enlighten me.

Sorry, just jokin' with Lex - see the ad at the bottom of the page.

http://www.catcables.com/

[dsmith]

Oh, hey yeah, Lex, I am your man to test the cables/connects. Just send 'em on over.

dsmith