Speaker Upgrade B&W HT System

[LordLex]

Hi all,

I'm going to upgrad my current 5.1 setup below to a full CM series. Here is what I have at the moment. I use it for 50% movies in 5.1 and 50% music in 2,1. My room is about 4mx6m.

Fronts: B&W 602S3
Centre: B&W LCR60
Surround: B&W CM1
Sub: B&W ASW2500

Receiver: Marantz SR5005

I had the 602s for years before upgrading to 5.1 about 2 years ago, picking up the LCR60, Sub and CM1s on auction for cheap. I live in Japan so everything on auction is in great condition. I'm going to replace the Fronts and eventually the Centre with other CM speakers to match everything up.

I've noticed quite a few pairs of CM7s on auction for cheap but also a few pairs of CM8s at similar prices but a bit more expensive. I've searched a lot but cannot find much information to really compare the speakers in stereo and HT.

I'll also replace the centre with either a CMC or CMC2 but the CMC2 is a monster and I'll need to replace the whole rack to accommodate it though all review show the CMC2 is far better.

I also read that the CM7s don't match the CMC as well as the CM8/9s due to the crossover but I also read that the CM8s are a step down from the CM7s for stereo and music.

I listen to music in stereo which is where I really criticize my speakers. The sub takes care of the bass in the current set up and I have the crossover frequency at 80Hz with fronts set to small in the receiver so I won't need huge bass from the new fronts I get.

As I'll be buying second hand on auction, I won't have the luxury of listening to the speakers before the purchase (not always wise I know) so any advice on choosing between the CM7s or CM8s from anyone that has listened to or owns any of these combinations would be really helpful.

Would it be better to pick up the CM7s or the CM8s and when I upgrade the centre, would the CMC be a good bet even though the CMC2 is rated much better?

Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[stuofsci02]

Hi all,

I'm going to upgrad my current 5.1 setup below to a full CM series. Here is what I have at the moment. I use it for 50% movies in 5.1 and 50% music in 2,1. My room is about 4mx6m.

Fronts: B&W 602S3
Centre: B&W LCR60
Surround: B&W CM1
Sub: B&W ASW2500

Receiver: Marantz SR5005

I had the 602s for years before upgrading to 5.1 about 2 years ago, picking up the LCR60, Sub and CM1s on auction for cheap. I live in Japan so everything on auction is in great condition. I'm going to replace the Fronts and eventually the Centre with other CM speakers to match everything up.

I've noticed quite a few pairs of CM7s on auction for cheap but also a few pairs of CM8s at similar prices but a bit more expensive. I've searched a lot but cannot find much information to really compare the speakers in stereo and HT.

I'll also replace the centre with either a CMC or CMC2 but the CMC2 is a monster and I'll need to replace the whole rack to accommodate it though all review show the CMC2 is far better.

I also read that the CM7s don't match the CMC as well as the CM8/9s due to the crossover but I also read that the CM8s are a step down from the CM7s for stereo and music.

I listen to music in stereo which is where I really criticize my speakers. The sub takes care of the bass in the current set up and I have the crossover frequency at 80Hz with fronts set to small in the receiver so I won't need huge bass from the new fronts I get.

As I'll be buying second hand on auction, I won't have the luxury of listening to the speakers before the purchase (not always wise I know) so any advice on choosing between the CM7s or CM8s from anyone that has listened to or owns any of these combinations would be really helpful.

Would it be better to pick up the CM7s or the CM8s and when I upgrade the centre, would the CMC be a good bet even though the CMC2 is rated much better?

Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I have the CM7, but have not heard the CM8's.. I really think the CM7 is a great speaker. My primary system is 804s, so that is what I compare the CM7 to.. The 804s are of course better, but the CM7 gave me a shock when I got them after my 804s. They were better then expected.

For me the one spot the CM7's are weak is 50 hz and lower. I find the bass in this area is just not very good... And I don't mean low output, but just not good/tight... When I use them I either plug the ports, or run them crossed over above 50hz, as I would rather have no bass below 50Hz then the bass the CM7s make.

I have not hear the CM8, but they seem to have a nicer profile (narrow and deep).. Of course that is looks only.

I would for sure go for the CMC2 over the CMC... The CMC suffers from being a MTM design.. The CMC2 has the tweeter over the mid and separate bass drivers... Definately worth it... In fact the CMC2 is the lowest B&W center I would use for any setup..

Cheers

[audioqueso]

I live in Japan so everything on auction is in great condition.

Yup... that's pretty true. lol

To be honest, unless you plan on upgrading your Marantz, I wouldn't jump to the 800 series. I've had the 600 and 800 for a few years now. I've gone from receiver, separates, receiver, back to separates. I've always compared the 600 Se and 601 S3 my 805's with every new component I've purchased. The 600 and 805 have never really sounded all that much different off of a AV receiver.

My last switch was from a Marantz SR7002 to a Marantz AV7005/Emotiva XPA-5 combo. I had both systems at home at the same time.
Once again, comparing the 600 to the 805 on the SR7002 was not that big of a difference.
Once connected to the separate combo, both speakers really went down their own paths. Both had big improvements, but they changed paths in their sound quality.

So just my .2 cents, but if you plan on keeping your Marantz receiver, I wouldn't recommend the purchase of the 800 series.

[LordLex]

For me the one spot the CM7's are weak is 50 hz and lower. I find the bass in this area is just not very good... And I don't mean low output, but just not good/tight... When I use them I either plug the ports, or run them crossed over above 50hz, as I would rather have no bass below 50Hz then the bass the CM7s make.

Thanks for the input here. I read that the CM7s need to be placed away from the wall with the rear firing port but if the bass is that poor on the CM7s would I be better of going for CM5s on good stands with the crossover set to 50Hz and save a bit of cash for the CMC2?

[LordLex]

Yup... that's pretty true. lol

So just my .2 cents, but if you plan on keeping your Marantz receiver, I wouldn't recommend the purchase of the 800 series.

Indeed! People take care of things so well!

I'll probably keep the receiver for a while as though as it's the only thing I've bought new so will stick to the CM series. I ran the 602s through a Rotel RA05 before I got the Marantz and the sound through the Rotel was noticeably better despite having only 40W.

I checked AudioUnion's site and they have a few pairs of CM7s and CM8s so will go and have a listen to them on Saturday. I should know which way I want to go then.

Several friends are circling like vultures, waiting to snap up the old speakers as soon as I make my choice.

[Dmantis]

The CM7's are incredible , I'd choose them over Cm5's with a good pair of stands and for the money you really are not going to save any buying stands and all.

I'd cross them over @ 60hz or even 80hz. Let your sub do all the heavy lifting and allow your current receiver to have max power. I do however suggest replacing it with a SR7005 or going separates. The Cm7's really open up with more power. They are an amazing sounding speaker and I do like them over the CM8's which in their own right are very nice.

Go with the CMC2 and reconfigure your furniture , it's totally worth it to have a better center channel , for theater it's the most important speaker , get that right and the rest is magic , get it wrong and your system suffers.

[stuofsci02]

Thanks for the input here. I read that the CM7s need to be placed away from the wall with the rear firing port but if the bass is that poor on the CM7s would I be better of going for CM5s on good stands with the crossover set to 50Hz and save a bit of cash for the CMC2?

I would still stick with the CM7.. The FST midrange is worth it IMO.

I was harsh but honest on the bass side of the CM7, but don't let that worry you.. It is still a great speaker...

I have owned a lot of the 600 series speakers including 602.5 S3, 603 S3, 683's etc. and IMO the CM7 is much closer to my 804s then my old 683s when it comes to quality of sound..

The CM7's are speakers I could keep forever and be happy. They do so many things right... I couldn't go long term with the 600 series without needing to upgrade..

[audioqueso]

I checked AudioUnion's site and they have a few pairs of CM7s and CM8s so will go and have a listen to them on Saturday. I should know which way I want to go then.

AudioUnion and SecondHand over charge. I would recommend you go through yahoo auctions (auctions.yahoo.co.jp) or rakuten.

[LordLex]

AudioUnion and SecondHand over charge. I would recommend you go through yahoo auctions (auctions.yahoo.co.jp) or rakuten.

Thanks for the heads up!

I was about to head out to check them out. Will still go and give them a listen before pulling the trigger. After checking online seems to be not much difference between second hand AudioUnion and buying new on Rakuten. Only problem is that I can't get the CM7s on Rakuten.

[LordLex]

Just listened to the CM7s in AudioUnion and both the CM8s and CM9s in Yodobashi camera.

CM7s. Great midrange and soundstage when standing in the sweet spot but the bass seemed a little separated and not as crisp as I'd hoped. The bigger worry was noticing a huge difference when moving out of the width of the speakers and standing up with my head above the tweeters. Any point inside and they sounded wonderful.

I didn't notice this anywhere near as much when listening to the CM8s and CM9s which also had much crisper bass. CM9s sounded richer over the CM8s with a bit more punch but the difference was so small, I can't see any justification to splash out for them over the CM8s...though I was tempted!

So now the dilemma, CM7s or CM8s? I am wondering if the problem I noticed with the CM7s was due to the positioning in the shop. They were set up in the middle of the room with a pile of other stuff behind them and fairly close to the left wall and miles away from the right wall. If I set them up in my place, they would be about 30-40cm from the back wall and about 1.1m from the side walls.

Would this positioning open them up and get rid of the huge differences outside the sweet spot?

When I listened to the CM8s and CM9s, they were lined up in a wall of other speakers and in the center of the listening room.

I preferred the mids on the CM7s but it really gets to me if the sound changes drastically when I stand up or walk around my room.

Wish I could have listened to all of them in the same room. Would make the choice so much easier.

Any advice on if good positioning of the CM7s would fix the problem I encountered today? If so, I'll probably choose them over the CM8s as I'll cross the bass over to the sub.

If not, I think I'll go with the CM8s.

Thanks!

[stuofsci02]

Just listened to the CM7s in AudioUnion and both the CM8s and CM9s in Yodobashi camera.

CM7s. Great midrange and soundstage when standing in the sweet spot but the bass seemed a little separated and not as crisp as I'd hoped. The bigger worry was noticing a huge difference when moving out of the width of the speakers and standing up with my head above the tweeters. Any point inside and they sounded wonderful.

I didn't notice this anywhere near as much when listening to the CM8s and CM9s which also had much crisper bass. CM9s sounded richer over the CM8s with a bit more punch but the difference was so small, I can't see any justification to splash out for them over the CM8s...though I was tempted!

So now the dilemma, CM7s or CM8s? I am wondering if the problem I noticed with the CM7s was due to the positioning in the shop. They were set up in the middle of the room with a pile of other stuff behind them and fairly close to the left wall and miles away from the right wall. If I set them up in my place, they would be about 30-40cm from the back wall and about 1.1m from the side walls.

Would this positioning open them up and get rid of the huge differences outside the sweet spot?

When I listened to the CM8s and CM9s, they were lined up in a wall of other speakers and in the center of the listening room.

I preferred the mids on the CM7s but it really gets to me if the sound changes drastically when I stand up or walk around my room.

Wish I could have listened to all of them in the same room. Would make the choice so much easier.

Any advice on if good positioning of the CM7s would fix the problem I encountered today? If so, I'll probably choose them over the CM8s as I'll cross the bass over to the sub.

If not, I think I'll go with the CM8s.

Thanks!

The room is 7/10th's of a speaker IMO, so I understand it being hard to pick when rooms are different. This may also explain the difference between the mid ranges, as I am surprised you found much of a difference.

The CM7 and the CM8 use the same mid/tweeter so they should sound very similar (I am not sure 100% about the crossover points to the bass driver(s) but it should be very close). If I had to give a guess I would expect the CM8 to be a tad better on the mids and highs since the cabinet is narrower. Interesting you found the opposite.

I don't think you have to worry about the CM7 sweet spot. I have not encounted what you describe, and it sound like the setup was bad.. Same with the CM8... Rows of speakers suck.

I think you will not be disappointed with either choice.

[LordLex]

The room is 7/10th's of a speaker IMO, so I understand it being hard to pick when rooms are different. This may also explain the difference between the mid ranges, as I am surprised you found much of a difference.

The CM7 and the CM8 use the same mid/tweeter so they should sound very similar (I am not sure 100% about the crossover points to the bass driver(s) but it should be very close). If I had to give a guess I would expect the CM8 to be a tad better on the mids and highs since the cabinet is narrower. Interesting you found the opposite.

I don't think you have to worry about the CM7 sweet spot. I have not encounted what you describe, and it sound like the setup was bad.. Same with the CM8... Rows of speakers suck.

I think you will not be disappointed with either choice.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease on the CM7s. Perhaps the reason the mids sounded better on the CM7s was due to the better CD Player/Amp when I listened to them.

I listened to the CM8s and CM9s through a Rotel RA-05 which I have at home which drove these speakers surprisingly well with bags of power to spare.

I read in a few other threads that I could use the pre-outs on the Marantz to run the Fronts through the Rotel when listening to HT and use the Rotel on it's own for Stereo by connecting my CD player to the Rotel instead of the Marantz.

I checked several other threads but they were all rather confusing with several ways to set it up and not sure if I'd have to control the volume separately on both Marantz and Rotel when using HT which would be impossible for the wife to comprehend.

I might be willing to splash out bit more for the CM9s if I can do this easily to get the best out of stereo music as I think both the CM7s and CM8s would need the help of the sub for stereo.

[LordLex]

I came round to my senses and realized CM9s were pointless considering the size of my room (and the price tag).

I bought a pair of CM7s on auction for a a real bargain. Paid almost half the price I would have for the CM8s and 50K less than the pair of CM7s I demoed in AudionUnion which were in far worse condition (Thanks Audioqueso for the warning).

They arrived yesterday and after hooking them up they sound gorgeous. Huge improvement over the 602s.

The problems I heard when demoing them in the shop are non-existent in my living room. (Thanks to stuofsci02)

I'm driving them bi-amped through the Marantz with bass crossed over at 80Hz (tried 60Hz and 40Hz but not quite as good) and the foam plugs in the ports.

Will try them through the Rotel over the weekend.

Was hoping to get the CMC2 this weekend but no stock anywhere until August unless one pops up auction.

I really appreciate all the advice everyone has given. I feel I have definitely made the right choice.

Will certainly return here when the time comes to upgrade again or if I need any more advice.

This might be sooner than expected considering how much I saved getting the CM7s.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

[stuofsci02]

I came round to my senses and realized CM9s were pointless considering the size of my room (and the price tag).

I bought a pair of CM7s on auction for a a real bargain. Paid almost half the price I would have for the CM8s and 50K less than the pair of CM7s I demoed in AudionUnion which were in far worse condition (Thanks Audioqueso for the warning).

They arrived yesterday and after hooking them up they sound gorgeous. Huge improvement over the 602s.

The problems I heard when demoing them in the shop are non-existent in my living room. (Thanks to stuofsci02)

I'm driving them bi-amped through the Marantz with bass crossed over at 80Hz (tried 60Hz and 40Hz but not quite as good) and the foam plugs in the ports.

Will try them through the Rotel over the weekend.

Was hoping to get the CMC2 this weekend but no stock anywhere until August unless one pops up auction.

I really appreciate all the advice everyone has given. I feel I have definitely made the right choice.

Will certainly return here when the time comes to upgrade again or if I need any more advice.

This might be sooner than expected considering how much I saved getting the CM7s.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

Congrats! I knew you would like the CM7... Good luck with the CMC2... Don't settle for a CMC...

Cheers

Stuart

[LordLex]

A little late but the CMC2 arrived and it was well worth the wait!

I'm now looking to get a multi-channel power amp to round off the system and was looking a the following options.

Marantz MM7055 - 5 channels - 140W
Emotiva UPA-700 - 7 channels - 80W or
Emotiva XPA-5 - 5 channels - 200W

Considering the UPA-700 to run all speakers through it and bi-amp the CM7s and it's by far the cheapest option.

However, would I be better off to invest a bit more in the MM7055 or XPA5 to get the balanced inputs and extra power for a when I eventually replace the receiver?

The 200W on the XPA5 seems like overkill and might blow my circuit breakers when the wife turns on the electric heaters. My old Rotel RA-05 had no trouble making my ears bleed when I hooked up the CM7s to it for a test and that is only 40W.

Has anyone here owned any of the amps above or provide further guidance?

ps. should I start a separate thread on this?

[stuofsci02]

A little late but the CMC2 arrived and it was well worth the wait!

I'm now looking to get a multi-channel power amp to round off the system and was looking a the following options.

Marantz MM7055 - 5 channels - 140W
Emotiva UPA-700 - 7 channels - 80W or
Emotiva XPA-5 - 5 channels - 200W

Considering the UPA-700 to run all speakers through it and bi-amp the CM7s and it's by far the cheapest option.

However, would I be better off to invest a bit more in the MM7055 or XPA5 to get the balanced inputs and extra power for a when I eventually replace the receiver?

The 200W on the XPA5 seems like overkill and might blow my circuit breakers when the wife turns on the electric heaters. My old Rotel RA-05 had no trouble making my ears bleed when I hooked up the CM7s to it for a test and that is only 40W.

Has anyone here owned any of the amps above or provide further guidance?

ps. should I start a separate thread on this?

I would go for the XPA-5 in your spot.. You won't blow the circuit ... You only use the power you use.. But you will have a nice reserve and that will be good.

The EMO stuff is very good value for the money...

[LordLex]

Thanks for the quick reply. The reason I was thinking of the UPA-700 was to bi-amp the CM7s and have all speakers through the power amp.

I guess I can still bi-amp the fronts with the XPA-5 and run the surrounds through my receiver.

How much of difference would the extra power will make? Still a little concerned about the 200W as sometimes my HTPC crashes in the middle of a film, sending a bit sound spike through the speakers. Could that damage the CM7s as they are rated to handle 30-150W?

I won't be listening at ridiculous levels but might that be an issue?

[Hdale85]

You won't blow the speakers, it's very unlikely. People focus on power ratings too often but generally that's not what blows speakers.

Also you'd likely actually hear 0 benefit from bi-amping. At least I've never heard a difference. Maybe when you get into the crazy high end stuff? I don't know.

[stuofsci02]

+1 on above...

You are better off with a bigger more powerful amp, then passively bi-amping..

You are way more likely to blow your speakers with too little power than too much..

[mjb]

sometimes my HTPC crashes in the middle of a film, sending a bit sound spike through the speakers. Could that damage the CM7s as they are rated to handle 30-150W?

Well, I would say, yes - it could damage them. I would replace your HTPC, or certainly load it with an operating system that is not prone to crash!

[Hdale85]

Also the sound spike could kill it not from the power output, likely wouldn't even hit peak power from that spike. It'd be the distortion from the sound that would kill it. Figure out what's causing your HTPC to restart in the middle of a film, sounds like a heat issue. You wouldn't happen to be using a fanless ION setup would you? If so then you're likely overheating in the middle of a movie and need a fan over the board/heatsink as that's what I had to do.

[LordLex]

Thanks for the all the input once again.

I decided to go with the XPA-5 which arrived yesterday and what a difference it has made! The soundstage is so much more detailed with each instrument sounding clear and independent. I really get what everyone was saying about the additional power allowing the room for the speakers to breathe.

I switched the Fronts and Center to "large" in the receiver now and noticed much better bass performance too as the sub occasionally overpowered the bass and boomed in films when the crossover was set to 80Hz.

I'll be spending a the next few months rediscovering my music collection.

Regarding the HTPC, the crashes are getting fewer and further between since I upgraded the hardware and installed Win7 64-bit. It's not a heat issue as it only happened on certain mkv files at the same point so I put it down to a playback issues in XBMC. I can switch to MPC when I encounter a bad file but since updating to the latest version of XBMC and the new OS, if it does crash, no more BSDs or crazy sound spikes, it simply freezes and I can restart it.

The XPA-5 has really brought the whole system to life and the only future upgrades I'll look for will be to replace the Marantz when it's technology becomes obsolete.

Thanks again for all the input and advice. It's made all of my choices much easier.

[stuofsci02]

Now that you have a beastly amp packing some punch, you should try different cross over points again.. You might find a bit lower (60hz) sounds better now..

[madmac]

I still contend that setting your mains to 'large' while using a powered sub is duplicating bass efforts that the sub can, and is designed to do better than the main speakers. You are also putting much more strain on the amp (despite it's power) than is necessary. Technically, you should get a 'cleaner' sound with the mains set to small when using powered sub/s in conjunction with them. But then again as I have always said, Let YOUR ears be your guide!!. If it sounds better to your ears .......well then.... there it is!!