MS Announcements at E3

[impala454]

http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2008/jul08/07-14InstantStreamPR.mspx

LOS ANGELES — July 14, 2008 — An exciting new home theater experience is coming to living rooms this holiday season. At the E3 Media and Business Summit, Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq “MSFT”) and Netflix, Inc. (Nasdaq: NFLX), the world’s largest online movie rental service, today unveiled an exclusive partnership to offer consumers the ability to instantly stream movies and TV episodes from Netflix to the television via the Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system. Xbox 360 will be the only game system that lets users instantly watch movies and TV episodes streamed from Netflix. This movie watching innovation will be available to Xbox LIVE Gold members who are also Netflix subscribers and will let those users enjoy streaming movies from Netflix on Xbox LIVE at no additional cost.

This could be huge for both companies. It might also blow the newer boxes like roku right outta the water.

MS also announced a complete software overhaul. not sure what I think yet, looks kinda wii like.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/14/microsoft-giving-the-xbox-360-a-totally-new-dashboard/

either way, a couple of pretty interesting announcements.

[impala454]

More updates (from engadget)

Netflix

For now, Netflix will only stream in about-SD resolution.
As Netflix transitions to HD, Microsoft said it stands to reason that streaming HD to the Xbox should be feasible. (Read: eventual.)
Netflix will be for Xbox Live Gold members only, so you'll be paying that $50 per year if you want it.
Netflix video sharing ONLY works with other Netflix / Xbox Live Gold subscribers. You can't share video with a Silver member, or who doesn't subscribe to Netflix.
Microsoft doesn't seem to have concerns about redundant content between Netflix and XBLM, or Netflix cannibalizing XBLM sales. Makes sense -- if you had content available to rent or stream with Netflix, you probably weren't going to pay to rent it on XBLManyway.

Xbox Dashboard / Guide and Live

"No functionality goes away" in new Dash -- so you won't be missing anything you have now.
Microsoft's Shane Kim says the company has "no plans to create a [Sony] 'Home'-like environment. ... It's about delivering base functionality at the service level." So it sounds like the avatars won't have a Home-like virtual theme-park to run around in.
No comment was made about Xbox price drops or how long it will take to get to the all-important $199 price point.
There will be no increase in your number of Xbox Live friends. Psh.
Don't like the new Dashboard look or avatars? Sorry, sucka, it's a mandatory update. Hey, at least it's free.
Microsoft didn't have any comment on what it intends to do about the whole modded controller thing.
The content Marketplace will be overhauled and revamped to ensure it's easier to navigate and much more scalable for the huge amount of content it's got.

[here.now]

This is great news! Thanks Chuck. I've heard about the new updates but I hadn't got the word on the Netflix MS partnership. It's interesting because in the last few months I feel like there's been an uprising of people using third party programs to stream Netflix to their Xboxes.

Example : http://lifehacker.com/396881/turn-yo...netflix-player

I think this is going to be a great portal, as an owner of an Xbox and a long-time Netflix subscriber, I feel it's going to urge me to use both Xbox and Watch Instantly Netflix more frequently. I've already had my laptop as a sudo "HTPC" in that I use my tv as my monitor and my HT for the sound.

I wonder with the upgrade to HD video if they will make the jump to HD audio. The one turn off from using Watch Instantly on Netflix is the lack of multichannel audio. It may just be my setup as my sound card only supports stereo. Does anyone know if the Watch Instantly on Netflix streams out multichannel audio?

-Jeff

[maseline_98]

I wonder with the upgrade to HD video if they will make the jump to HD audio. The one turn off from using Watch Instantly on Netflix is the lack of multichannel audio. It may just be my setup as my sound card only supports stereo. Does anyone know if the Watch Instantly on Netflix streams out multichannel audio?

-Jeff

The 360 can't decode HD audio like the ps3 can and therefore would not be able to pass it along...

It mentions that this service will be available to Xbox live gold members, but do we also have to be a netflix member as well?

[aud19]

The 360 can't decode HD audio like the ps3 can and therefore would not be able to pass it along...

It mentions that this service will be available to Xbox live gold members, but do we also have to be a netflix member as well?

I would imagine it can pass through multichannel Dolby Digital though, which is what I think Jeff was asking.

[Hdale85]

Doesn't the PS3 software decode it? I would imagine eventually they could add HD audio decoding. As jason said I'm pretty sure it can pass it as is right now if you have an HDMI Xbox.

They haven't announced the Blu-Ray add on yet huh? It's funny before HD-DVD died they said they could possibly make a Blu-Ray add on and then after it dies there is a leak that states they are working on such a device but Microsoft denies it.

[John Holmes]

The 360 can't decode HD audio like the ps3 can and therefore would not be able to pass it along...

It mentions that this service will be available to Xbox live gold members, but do we also have to be a netflix member as well?

Yes, you have to be a Netflix member as well.

This works out well for me. I'm really tired of getting damaged disc on the older titles. And since I already have a 360, this will be a welcomed feature in my home.

[impala454]

Just to note in case anyone missed it. This does also require you to be an xbox live paying member ($50/yr).

[John Holmes]

Just to note in case anyone missed it. This does also require you to be an xbox live paying member ($50/yr).

Yup, check! :T

[cinema bob]

This could be huge for both companies. It might also blow the newer boxes like roku right outta the water.

Why do you think that? Roku has announced that it will be adding Youtube, Hulu and amazon Unbox plus possibly other streaming services to the Roku box. Its only $100 bucks. versus the 300 for the xbox and with xbox you also have to pay an additional $50 per year for xbox gold to even see this service. The Roku device has been so popular that new orders are now 7-8 weeks backlogged... I fail to see how this will even effect Roku let alone "blow them out of the water".

[cinema bob]

Oh and as soon as Netflix gets on the ball and offers streaming HD and surround sound the Roku box is ready for it. Right now netflix only does stereo.

[impala454]

Why do you think that?

Because there's 20 million Xbox 360s and 10 million netflix subscribers already out there.

[Hdale85]

Because there's 20 million Xbox 360s and 10 million netflix subscribers already out there.

I was just about to say the same thing :B There are already so many Xbox 360's out there and people that subscribe to Xbox Live Gold that it makes a HUGE Difference. It would take Roku years to even get close. Also the 360 could easily support the HD content along with multichannel audio.

[cinema bob]

I was just about to say the same thing :B There are already so many Xbox 360's out there and people that subscribe to Xbox Live Gold that it makes a HUGE Difference. It would take Roku years to even get close. Also the 360 could easily support the HD content along with multichannel audio.

how many of those xbox users already have both live gold and netflix? how many people will buy an xbox just for this service?? every roku sold is used for streaming netflix, and it does it very well. OTOH the Xbox has a well documented history of being a huge POS.
IMO this will be really cool for people that already an xbox and already have both services, however i don't think that very many people will buy an xbox over a Wii or PS3 because of this and no one will buy it just for this service. This is something cool for existing users but it is hardly a killer app, and won't affect the Roku one iota.

[Hdale85]

I bet a lot of those current xbox owners have netflix. And I don't know anyone that has an Xbox 360 and does not have Xbox Live Gold. This goes the same way as the PS3 people buy it just for Blu-Ray granted other Blu-Ray players are the same price but still they look at it as getting a bonus with the game console. A lot of people may still want a 360 and thats another reason to grab one. But there are still the millions that have 360's and probably half if not more have Netflix.

[impala454]

OTOH the Xbox has a well documented history of being a huge POS.

I don't agree with this at all, but there is zero documented history for the roku, so how is that any comparison?

This is something cool for existing users but it is hardly a killer app, and won't affect the Roku one iota.

It won't affect the roku? So do you think people who own a 360 and want to stream netflix will go out and purchase a roku instead of just using their 360? I can name off three people I know who are normal non-HT nerds like us and were enthusiastic about this announcement (as they are netflix and XBL users). I could go ask those same three people what a roku is and they'd have no clue.

Obviously you own one and are defending it, and that's cool, but you have to admit this new 360 ability will at the very least affect the roku's sales an "iota" or two

[Hdale85]

I don't think its really about Roku VS Xbox.

[impala454]

Well no it isn't, was just answering his question to me on why I thought it would affect roku sales.

[here.now]

I don't agree with this at all, but there is zero documented history for the roku, so how is that any comparison?


It won't affect the roku? So do you think people who own a 360 and want to stream netflix will go out and purchase a roku instead of just using their 360? I can name off three people I know who are normal non-HT nerds like us and were enthusiastic about this announcement (as they are netflix and XBL users).

You can add me to that list. Though I do know what a Roku is. I also agree that this isn't XBox VS Roku. Then again, I'd be really interested what new features Roku will come up with in order to compete with those of us who already own a 360 and subscribe to Netflix. After-all Roku is a relatively new device and I'm sure Netflix was excited about an in-expensive piece of hardware that would get them more subscribers. Though, now that MS has announced this added feature to the 360, Roku is going to have to be adaptive and innovative to keep the markets attention.

On the other hand, for 100$ if the Roku could offer more connectibility and be more dynamic in its streaming abilities, I can't say I would not be interested in it.

[maseline_98]

I bet a lot of those current xbox owners have netflix. And I don't know anyone that has an Xbox 360 and does not have Xbox Live Gold. This goes the same way as the PS3 people buy it just for Blu-Ray granted other Blu-Ray players are the same price but still they look at it as getting a bonus with the game console. A lot of people may still want a 360 and thats another reason to grab one. But there are still the millions that have 360's and probably half if not more have Netflix.

I have a 360 with xbox live, but do not have netflix. I have blockbuster, but will probably move to netflix if this service works out to be good(meaning PQ and SQ)...

[impala454]

I have heard some people dogging the selection of netflix's online streaming vs what's available via the mail. I have never used it at all, what do you guys who already use netflix online think of the selection?

[littlesaint]

Of the last 20 films I've rented, I think 3 were available for streaming. Of course, I would imagine this number will go up if there's demand. I have a 360 with Live Gold, but HD has me a bit spoiled right now. The convenience would be nice, but I generally don't have very long wait times for Netflix by mail. Usually just a 2 day turn around.

[John Holmes]

I have heard some people dogging the selection of netflix's online streaming vs what's available via the mail. I have never used it at all, what do you guys who already use netflix online think of the selection?

At this point the selection sucks for up to date releases. And that isn't exaggerated at all. However, a lot of that which is there at this time, are things that I have wanted to see but just didn't warrant priorty seeing.

I believe the lack of choices will change considerably with the addition of Roku & XBox applications.

As for quality, I've streamed a few instant watch movies from them over my pc. I have broadband and am very satisfied with the results. Now, this is over my current 15' monitor. Not sure how good it will look on my 92" screen. But if it's anything like the trailers of other items I've watched via XBox Live, it will vary just like any other source, from horrible to fantastic and everything in between.

[Hdale85]

Well the nice thing about Netflix is you can still do the DVD's by mail and you still get unlimited streaming at the same time.

[John Holmes]

Well the nice thing about Netflix is you can still do the DVD's by mail and you still get unlimited streaming at the same time.

Yes sir, I agree. That is why I don't understand why anyone would complain about the service. Netflix has always held firm from it's begining, that streaming downloads was the companies goal. I'm sure that it will become a good system in time.

[cinema bob]

At this point the selection sucks for up to date releases. And that isn't exaggerated at all. However, a lot of that which is there at this time, are things that I have wanted to see but just didn't warrant priorty seeing.

this is very true. When i got the Roku I had 250 movies in my Que and only about 20 of those were available for instant viewing... since that time I have upped my instant que to around 200 films and tv shows. We use the Roku mostly for the TV shows, there are lots of newer showtime shows and cool older BBC stuff. plus a few "big 3" shows like Heros on there.

[cinema bob]

I don't agree with this at all, but there is zero documented history for the roku, so how is that any comparison?

check out the roku forums and see how many people are having any problems with their unit. OTOH i know of 5 people who have had their xbox 360 "red ring" on them. when a product creates slang based on malfunctions then IMO it has a reputation of being a POS. sorry but its true

It won't affect the roku? So do you think people who own a 360 and want to stream netflix will go out and purchase a roku instead of just using their 360?

You might find this hard to believe but not everyone has a 360, in fact most people do not. Of the people that do have it many do not have live. I know several people with 360's only know 2 with live.
IMO this will get people to go to netflix but won't sell a single xbox

Obviously you own one and are defending it, and that's cool, but you have to admit this new 360 ability will at the very least affect the roku's sales an "iota" or two

no i really don't think it will. I think that the rumored future players from samsung and such will impact the roku, but IMO the xbox player is a very narrow niche and really wont affect Roku sales. again its very cool for the people who already have an xbox with live gold but for everyone else its a non issue. people who want to stream video to their tv will go roku (or wait for a future player) simply because its cheaper and easier.

[impala454]

Bob, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not want to turn this into an XBox 360 vs Roku thread. Just felt the announcements from Microsoft were pretty significant and worth posting on here.

[Hdale85]

I've owned umm 4 Xbox's now and kept most of them at least a year and right now I have 2 of them that I've had 2 years and one that is about a year old (got a good deal ) anyways I've never had a problem with any of them. I'm not sure whats going on with a lot of these broken 360's but I have to think there is something either with the space they keep them in or some sort of abuse. Not saying your friends did this I just find it strange.

[littlesaint]

I've owned umm 4 Xbox's now and kept most of them at least a year and right now I have 2 of them that I've had 2 years and one that is about a year old (got a good deal ) anyways I've never had a problem with any of them. I'm not sure whats going on with a lot of these broken 360's but I have to think there is something either with the space they keep them in or some sort of abuse. Not saying your friends did this I just find it strange.

While I don't think the Xbox red-ring issue is that bad considering the volume of units out there (mine did fail), I know people at MS that have said it is a hardware "defect" (their words, not MS) That's why Microsoft has been very forth giving with repairs or replacements, even extending warranties

That said, the percentage of failures is no where close to warranting a POS claim, and while a lot of people may not own 360s, there are a hell of a lot more of them out there than Roku boxes.

[cinema bob]

Bob, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not want to turn this into an XBox 360 vs Roku thread. Just felt the announcements from Microsoft were pretty significant and worth posting on here.

I guess, but your claim would be very easy to prove. As soon as this actually happens then Roku sales will stop and Xbox360 will be as scarce as a Wii at christmas... I really don't see that happening.

[cinema bob]

While I don't think the Xbox red-ring issue is that bad considering the volume of units out there (mine did fail), I know people at MS that have said it is a hardware "defect" (their words, not MS) That's why Microsoft has been very forth giving with repairs or replacements, even extending warranties

That said, the percentage of failures is no where close to warranting a POS claim, and while a lot of people may not own 360s, there are a hell of a lot more of them out there than Roku boxes.

really? not a POS? estimates are that 30% of consoles that have shipped have failed due to "digital backbone" issues. Thats roughly a 1 in 3 failure rate... I think that is pretty much the definition of POS but whatever.

http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_inside_source_reveal_the_truth_about_xbox_360_red_ring_of_death_failures.php

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160603

[Hdale85]

I call BS on that second one. How the heck could it have exploded. There is no way.

[cinema bob]

not that uncommon on these high quality pieces:



"See that black thing to the right? That's apparently a diode that liberated itself from the motherboard in a very violent manner. There's gray plactic shrapnel directly south of the black spot where it once stood (Near the larger diodes) and some kind of fiberish stuff. It's not spiderweb or anything of the like, if there was any kind of flame or smoldering (And there was) it would have been vaporized."


Evidently, a design problem sometimes causes a cap on the motherboard to overheat, and in several cases it violently explodes.

[littlesaint]

really? not a POS? estimates are that 30% of consoles that have shipped have failed due to "digital backbone" issues. Thats roughly a 1 in 3 failure rate... I think that is pretty much the definition of POS but whatever.

http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_inside_source_reveal_the_truth_about_xbox_360_red_ring_of_death_failures.php

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160603

Ah yes! The good ol' "unnamed inside source". Very believable. I'm sure 8bitjoystick gets all of the good inside info from Microsoft. I know if it's on the Internet it must be true, but call me suspicious.

Truth is that number comes comes from a single retail manager and stupid websites scooped it as "inside info" or "retailer estimates". According to a company that provides Xbox 360 warranties (slightly more reliable) the failure rate is a little over 16% with 60% of those being red-ring. Still a high number for consoles (3%), but not much higher than other CE devices over 3 years (15%).

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3166259

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080214-xbox-360-failure-rates-worse-than-most-consumer-electornics.html

[PewterTA]

I'd have to say that's very case specific as most of the "rings of death" were due to MS building their own processing chip from a foriegn company based off of ATI's chipset for the 360. Problem was, these chips ran much hotter than the ATI counterpart...and the GPU heatsink couldn't dissipate the heat. Hence frying the chip on the 360 and having to get replaced. Now MS extended the warranty and went back to ATI and has been putting in their manufactured chips since. Big costly mistake, but it happens all the time with companies that think they can get away with having another manufacturer build the same chip and save some money.

[cinema bob]

Ah yes! The good ol' "unnamed inside source". Very believable. I'm sure 8bitjoystick gets all of the good inside info from Microsoft. I know if it's on the Internet it must be true, but call me suspicious.

Truth is that number comes comes from a single retail manager and stupid websites scooped it as "inside info" or "retailer estimates". According to a company that provides Xbox 360 warranties (slightly more reliable) the failure rate is a little over 16% with 60% of those being red-ring. Still a high number for consoles (3%), but not much higher than other CE devices over 3 years (15%).

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3166259

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ectornics.html

from your source: "Like others, we have read the failure rate for Xbox is 30 percent or higher. We haven't seen that yet, but it is clearly plausible that this 16 percent failure rate we see will increase with claims over time."
that is a quote from SquareTrade. Which is A seller of extended warrantees, not the seller of extended warranties.

"Our customers are buying warranties within 30 days of purchase," he told Ars. "When these systems fail, they tend to fail quickly. They have only handled 1,000 unit claims on xbox360 units.

Truth is that number comes comes from a single retail manager and stupid websites scooped it as "inside info" or "retailer estimates".

again from your site: "Company estimates pinned it at a fairly normal 3%, while some retailers have put the percentage as high as 1/3 of all systems." Where is the site for your claim that its a single retail store manager or did you just make that part up?

oh and when you attack ones sources it is wise to then not use the exact same source in an attempt to counteract, just FYI.

"It is reasonable to believe these failure rates will increase over time, since the Xbox 360 failure issues tend to increase with prolonged use where overheating appears the main culprit"

[cinema bob]

I'd have to say that's very case specific as most of the "rings of death" were due to MS building their own processing chip from a foriegn company based off of ATI's chipset for the 360. Problem was, these chips ran much hotter than the ATI counterpart...and the GPU heatsink couldn't dissipate the heat. Hence frying the chip on the 360 and having to get replaced. Now MS extended the warranty and went back to ATI and has been putting in their manufactured chips since. Big costly mistake, but it happens all the time with companies that think they can get away with having another manufacturer build the same chip and save some money.

:E that sounds like a Microsoft move. Listen I have no problem with the XBox if people wanna use it then great more power to them, but don't try to tell me that it is uber reliable and these reports are bogus. hell in this thread alone we know several people that have had red ring or other significant problems and yet we get the MS apologists acting like its no big deal and everything is OK... It gets really old. Just acknowledge the problem, figure out a solution and move on... but no its deny, deny, deny... heck MS still claims there are less than 3% failure rate... who is swallowing this stuff.

[impala454]

Guys I respectfully ask that we quit derailing the thread with this xbox vs roku bickering. All I said was I felt it was possible for this announcement to affect roku sales. Bob, attacking the 360 and trying to prove to us that it's a piece of junk doesn't change anything or prove any point you're attempting to make.

[cinema bob]

Guys I respectfully ask that we quit derailing the thread with this xbox vs roku bickering. All I said was I felt it was possible for this announcement to affect roku sales. Bob, attacking the 360 and trying to prove to us that it's a piece of junk doesn't change anything or prove any point you're attempting to make.

no you claimed that it would "blow the roku out of the water" and then when i pointed out taht the Xbox had issues with reliablity I got denials. If you don't want to compare two products then perhaps you should not start the thread by comparing two products. :roll:

[littlesaint]

no you claimed that it would "blow the roku out of the water" and then when i pointed out taht the Xbox had issues with reliablity I got denials. If you don't want to compare two products then perhaps you should not start the thread by comparing two products. :roll:

What does Xbox reliability have to do with the announced Netflix feature? The thread is about Xbox E3 announcements, not Xbox reliability. Even then, the Roku hasn't been out long enough to make any sort of reliability claims about it, so what exactly are you arguing? I understand you own one of these and are trying to defend your new toy, but you can't really argue reliability without any real reliability data. All your doing is taking pot shots and not very good ones.

[impala454]

no you claimed that it would "blow the roku out of the water"

Go back and read it again. I said *might*. My advice would be to not read that as some personal attack against all Roku owners, as you appeared to take it.

As far as your responses dogging the xbox, again I ask you how it changes anything in this discussion. The fact is that there's 20 million of them already out there. Ok so you think 30% of all of them are faulty (preposterous but I'll give it to you just to prove my point). So now there's only 14 million functioning xbox 360s out there. I don't understand how you could possibly that 14 million netflix players appearing out of thin air wouldn't affect other netflix player's sales. Or where you got the idea that XBL memberships and netflix memberships are somehow mutually exclusive.

[cinema bob]

Go back and read it again. I said *might*. My advice would be to not read that as some personal attack against all Roku owners, as you appeared to take it.

As far as your responses dogging the xbox, again I ask you how it changes anything in this discussion.

The fact is that there's 20 million of them already out there. Ok so you think 30% of all of them are faulty (preposterous but I'll give it to you just to prove my point). So now there's only 14 million functioning xbox 360s out there. I don't understand how you could possibly that 14 million netflix players appearing out of thin air wouldn't affect other netflix player's sales. Or where you got the idea that XBL memberships and netflix memberships are somehow mutually exclusive.

See there is the flaw in your logic, there are not 14 million new netflix players out of thin air. There are 14 million potential netflix players. I never once said that they were Mutually exclusive, I simply pointed out the very clear fact that they are not collectively exhaustive. Just because one owns an xbox doesn't mean that they have live gold, and just because they have live gold it doesn't mean that they are netflix members... In order for this to "blow the roku out of the water" it would have to make people buy it over a roku or any of the other boxes coming out this fall and/or make existing owners both pay for live gold and netflix. I do believe the number of people who already satify all three "needs" is small, I don't have any hard numbers to back this up but much anecdotal evidence points to this.

12 million LIVE members across 26 countries claimed - no info on US based Gold level members though

netflix has around 5.6 million subscribers as of the end of the third quarter of 2006. no numbers on specific levels.

How many do you think already have both?? How many people with Live Gold in the US will join Netflix because of this?? How many netflix members will buy an Xbox because of this??? How many people will choose this system over other cheaper boxes???


Whether or not you like it and whether or not its true the Xbox 360 is widely regarded as a very flawed piece of kit. Most casual people (non audio/video buffs) on the street have this opinion, that is if they even know what an Xbox is...

Again I am not really ragging on the Xbox, if you guys want to use it then great, more power to you. I do know that a ton of great games are xbox exclusive. Also I will be the first to admit any roku problems, such as the "always on video" state sometimes causes problems with auto detect systems and it needs a "soft reset" every so often (unplug and replug). My orignal point was that the Xbox is not a bastion of quality electronics. That statement seems to have really touched on a nerve of the resident xbox fans, the best part is they then have the cajones to accuse me of being a fanboy. :rofl:

[cinema bob]

What does Xbox reliability have to do with the announced Netflix feature? The thread is about Xbox E3 announcements, not Xbox reliability.

and I am not the one that turned it into one.

Even then, the Roku hasn't been out long enough to make any sort of reliability claims about it, so what exactly are you arguing?

that the statement "this might blow boxes like the Roku out of the water" has holes in it.

I understand you own one of these and are trying to defend your new toy, but you can't really argue reliability without any real reliability data. All your doing is taking pot shots and not very good ones.

:roll: no what I am trying to do is have an intelligent discussion about consumer electronics on a consumer electronics discussion board. Im not defending or attacking anything. It seems however I mustn't say any wrong about ;x( MICROSOFT.

[here.now]

Im not defending or attacking anything. It seems however I mustn't say any wrong about ;x( MICROSOFT.

I think that people may feel as though you are attacking things. I also think that your immediate and sarcastic replies may frustrate people on this board. We're all here to discuss consumer electronics and their services etc. Strong opinions are bound to happen for one reason or the other. It's the delivery that is key, there are a few ways of discussing ones likes and dislikes. It's possible that some people may feel the things you have said, have come from an unnecessary defensive point of view.